Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Strong Badam]

i got a question about jc grabbing

if i jump and grab on the same frame which one takes priority?

i ask cuz lately i've been missing a lot of jc grabs due to lack of practicing and i get the lame dash grab animation

for some reason thats the only thing that seems to get worse for me without practice lOl

yet i can still do whacky stuff like double shine pressure with spacies

also what stages do you guys like vs falco

cuz that guy is really hard to hit when he's in the groove and even when he isnt hes annoying to deal with in general

dude you can test this stuff yourself. pause, then hold jump + z, then unpause.

 

[silentSWAG]

I do, but have limited access to tournaments/smashfests because of my age.

no age johns, im 15

isnt your avatar a religion or something?

 

[The Great Gonzales]

exactly im 27 and i still go to tourneys lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

Riddle's situation (and skill level) would improve more by dealing with the thing that prevents him from playing the numerous skilled players within his region. Playing people is better for improvement than not playing people by such a ludicrous margin that it's basically unrealistic to become good at this game independently at this point. You need other players.

That said, if it's literally an insurmountable barrier and there's nothing he can do about his situation, he should play a space animal and learn a ton of their moves with a ludicrously high degree of control and fluidity. And then, while he plays people on the rare cases he does, he should figure out where to slot all those moves and why they're effective. I don't like this method of learning the game because of how inefficient it is, but if you are extremely limited in terms of playing people it's probably best to play a character you can work on largely on your own.

Learn your basic combos and important things like how to move (dash, WD, etc) after executing an action (throw, attack, etc). It's extremely important with every character.

 

[lord karn]

Another good thing to do is to use the name glitch to get into single player vs. mode. Imagine that an opponent is on the screen in different situations. Try to figure out what that character could do to approach you or evade you. Ask yourself what you could do to defend against each approach, and what you could do to effectively approach a defensive player.

Also, practice moving around on the stage, and get into the mindset of thinking in terms of stage control instead of just moving around the stage for no reason.

For practicing shield pressure, set handicap to on and damage ratio to .5. Fight a level 1 DK with handicap 9, with yours as 1. This should pretty closely simulate the hitlag you have when hitting a shield. Practice spacing and pressure and whatnot. You can also do this in training mode with stars, which exactly mimics the hitlag of shields (but you have no cstick.

 

[ChicknMonkey]

Quick!
Pros/cons Sheik's chain! (side b)
Go!

I know it sucks, I'm just out of moves to troll my friends with...

 

[Teczer0]

Cons - its bad

Pros - its funny occasionally

I actually don't really know, pros other than maybe saving your partner but that's reaaaaaally grasping at straws.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mew2king is the only player that's ever used the chain effectively at high level ever

 

[silentSWAG]

no ^^^^ you used it vs peepee on pokemon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvYK8dz_1R4&t=12m30s

 

[KirbyKaze]

Thank you Johnny

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

chain is a great troll move

 

[silentSWAG]

Thank you Johnny

hey if you house vudujin's car for impulse , wana eat all the pizza hut?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I thought I already was housing Vudujin's car for IMPULSE. Who's in Jacob's car?

Uhh, sure. We have to go to the park near my house though (or the parking lot). My Dad doesn't allow it in the house (includes backyard).

 

[silentSWAG]

you are housing us then... i want sure . and im not sure who is coming with us either.

we can do it in jacobs car (probably) .. me and him are pretty much the only ones who eat dominoes or at least out of all the people who would coming (im not sure who is coming yet, ill let you know when i find out)

 

[KirbyKaze]

Who's coming?

 

[odinNJ]

Age johning is for plebs, Im 15 as well

 

[The Great Gonzales]

so what do you do when your too old to tech chase on reaction. mix up using up-smash and choose a direction to tech chase? I always wonder about this cause im too slow when it comes to tech-chases. I see people like M2K and amsah tech-chase so well on reaction, but i mainly just guess on where to go most of the time >_<

 

[KirbyKaze]

Have you considered studying the tech animations so you can look for visual cues to make the reaction easier? It helped me a lot. I think the space animals do the splits when they tech stand.

On Falco you can directly combo him at like 50% if he does anything but completely DI away, so you can use that to substitute for straight d-throw tech chasing at those percents. I really like up tilt > regrab / dash attack. Fox is closer to 70% or so (stupid fall speed acceleration grr).

Another good skill you can learn to try and help your reaction tech chasing is acting out of your down throw ASAP so you can position yourself properly (turn around, WD, dash dance, walk, etc) and get used to how much time you have to act in relation to the opponent. M2K's WDs and various other positional tricks are basically how he tech chases so well despite having a below average reaction time. I've used them too when I've been hungover or whatever at tournaments and they're quite good. You trade a technical input for a slightly easier window - for a lot of people, it's a good trade.

I don't want to suggest you simply devolve your tech punishment into pure, unadulterated guessing because this game requires you do reactions in similar windows all the time during the neutral game. Is also responding to them during punishment really that much harder? Especially when you have way more control over the opponent's options (especially vs Falco & Falcon because of the earlier percents for auto-combos) and have funneled them into like... four very distinct options?

Just my opinion.

If you don't think you can do any of that, or benefit from any of it, use dairs to cover the tech stand & non-tech at 50%+. Down smash is also pretty good for that. Space your stuff out of shine's range always. Sometimes just throw a fair at them (especially vs Falco) because it covers a bunch of common post-tech chase behaviors.

 

[silentSWAG]

mew2king dosent react actually. he is convinced that he cant so he guesses

 

[omgwtfToph]

I had no idea the percent was that early. You can combo Falcon off dthrow at relatively low percents too, right?

 

[KirbyKaze]

If by "relatively low percents" you mean "zero" then yes.

 

[omgwtfToph]

That's so low.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

Have you considered studying the tech animations so you can look for visual cues to make the reaction easier? It helped me a lot. I think the space animals do the splits when they tech stand.

On Falco you can directly combo him at like 50% if he does anything but completely DI away, so you can use that to substitute for straight d-throw tech chasing at those percents. I really like up tilt > regrab / dash attack. Fox is closer to 70% or so (stupid fall speed acceleration grr).

Another good skill you can learn to try and help your reaction tech chasing is acting out of your down throw ASAP so you can position yourself properly (turn around, WD, dash dance, walk, etc) and get used to how much time you have to act in relation to the opponent. M2K's WDs and various other positional tricks are basically how he tech chases so well despite having a below average reaction time. I've used them too when I've been hungover or whatever at tournaments and they're quite good. You trade a technical input for a slightly easier window - for a lot of people, it's a good trade.

I don't want to suggest you simply devolve your tech punishment into pure, unadulterated guessing because this game requires you do reactions in similar windows all the time during the neutral game. Is also responding to them during punishment really that much harder? Especially when you have way more control over the opponent's options (especially vs Falco & Falcon because of the earlier percents for auto-combos) and have funneled them into like... four very distinct options?

Just my opinion.

If you don't think you can do any of that, or benefit from any of it, use dairs to cover the tech stand & non-tech at 50%+. Down smash is also pretty good for that. Space your stuff out of shine's range always. Sometimes just throw a fair at them (especially vs Falco) because it covers a bunch of common post-tech chase behaviors.

ive never thougth of look for animation cue's when it came to tech chasing, i'll try it out since it looks like it would help my slow *** out >_<

 

[KirbyKaze]

Watch them in slow motion (so basically just go Fox & Falco on reduced speed in training mode [I use 1/2 usually, but they're all decent]) so you can spot cues easier. When they stop flashing, that's where your grab window is.

If you have two controllers, you can make a lot of practice drills to grab as soon as you see the flashing end (requires you to switch back & forth between controllers, but I find it helps for timing a lot because it gets you into the habit of grabbing during the proper window).

 

[silentSWAG]

ive never thought of that......

i kind of learned tech chasing form experience

didnt even know about boost grabs till recently

 

[KirbyKaze]

You can learn it from experience, sure. Those with lower reaction times may benefit from training exercises, positioning tricks to improve the window, and such.

 

[Van.]

How do I beat falcons overshot nair??

It seems like the noobiest question ever, i know, but hear me out. SH jump back fair seems really hard to time vs. his nair. Do you do it like when the first leg retracts, or even before then?

WD back ftilt is supposed to outright beat his nair, but seriously i don't see it. Is it especially hard to time?

Falcon is too fast/aerially mobile to DD grab his nair imo, but correct me if i'm wrong

How do i do it!? I remember reading something about reactively dashing towards him and ducking or shielding so he way overshoots or something, but can anyone explain it to me?

Or maybe all the things i'm struggling with are realy easy for everyone else, and io"m just having this huge mental block about the mu.

Imo, fox isn't nearly as frustrating as falcon no mu is

i appreciate all responses

 

[KirbyKaze]

Don't WD back. Just forward tilt. Overshoot anything is a counter to retreat spacing. WD back is a retreat.

Crouch also works because his nair goes over you or you CC it (which are both fine).

Consider sticking bair in its way. I hear Tope does it a lot.

You can also run under him and crouch or shield (if you know how to beat Gentleman when you shield).

I think the problem you're having mostly has to do with how you're approaching the problem. You're working against Falcon's stuff. In reality, it should be the other way around. Walking around and using the walk as your transition into everything else (crouching, shield movements, f-tilt, jump away bair, fair, etc) is really hard for him to real with.

I think in general Sheik wants to be inside Falcon's high momentum SHFFL range. I think if you're just inside or just outside his nair range (but outside of his grab's range), you're really dangerous to him because you can stuff all his stuff pretty easily. From that point, you can also crouch most of his relevant ground stuff (and some of his aerial stuff). If he jumps in place, you can go for tilts or aerials. His counter to this is to double jump around you, but that can be countered with WD back or simply aiming a different move at a better angle (DJ cuts momentum).

Just stay in mid range and then Falcon isn't so scary. Crouch after whiffing things if he's grounded.

 

[soap]

Don't WD back. Just forward tilt. Overshoot anything is a counter to retreat spacing. WD back is a retreat.

Crouch also works because his nair goes over you or you CC it (which are both fine).

Consider sticking bair in its way. I hear Tope does it a lot.

You can also run under him and crouch or shield (if you know how to beat Gentleman when you shield).

I think the problem you're having mostly has to do with how you're approaching the problem. You're working against Falcon's stuff. In reality, it should be the other way around. Walking around and using the walk as your transition into everything else (crouching, shield movements, f-tilt, jump away bair, fair, etc) is really hard for him to real with.

I think in general Sheik wants to be inside Falcon's high momentum SHFFL range. I think if you're just inside or just outside his nair range (but outside of his grab's range), you're really dangerous to him because you can stuff all his stuff pretty easily. From that point, you can also crouch most of his relevant ground stuff (and some of his aerial stuff). If he jumps in place, you can go for tilts or aerials. His counter to this is to double jump around you, but that can be countered with WD back or simply aiming a different move at a better angle (DJ cuts momentum).

Just stay in mid range and then Falcon isn't so scary. Crouch after whiffing things if he's grounded.

this is very good advice.

you can pressure him more than he can pressure you if you can wall your moves well enough.
They will dash dance or flat out run away once you start pressing. You can aim a boost grab at the back of his dash dance and surprise snag him, or just keep pushing, the level will run out and he will come at you with a bair, be ready to dash dance grab it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah once you put a lid on Falcon's movement, his game falls apart pretty hard.

 

[The Great Gonzales]

i've tried to study tech animations to help my tech chasing. But im still the slowest mutha****a when it comes to reaction to techs. Imma link you guys to some videos in the video thread so you guys can complain lolz

 

[Mew2King]

I actually try to react half the time (and usually fail) then guess the rest. Randomly lol.

 

[Van.]

thanks kk. I don't get why i struggle with just ftilting it, but I'll work through it. Good to know bair deserves some looking into as well.

 

[Armada]

I actually try to react half the time (and usually fail) then guess the rest. Randomly lol.

HOW can you not be able to react on falcon?
Seriously man. You should really do something to learn that. I don't know much about the subject "learn to react faster" but something should work.

Falcons roll SUCKS. If I would have been a ntsc player from the beginning I would not be surprised if I where a sheik main that only went for tech chase on reaction against fastfallers

 

[gm jack]

I can't do it purely because my reaction times aren't quite there most days, and mine are fairly average. I still try, and am getting closer and closer, but some people may lack the reaction times necessary.

 

[silentSWAG]

i dont ever have reaction problems...... but i am pretty young i guess

 

[Jolteon]

I don't think age really matters until you're a lot older

 

[gm jack]

Yeah, they'll be a lot more difference within people of the same age than between the averages a couple of years apart.

 

[joejoe22802]

How the hell do you beat patient spacies.

 

[silentSWAG]

you got to be specific