Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[ChicknMonkey]

Yah its OoT, when you have to hit the deku brothers in a specific order, that's what another deku tells you to do with a "twist" so you remember it.

 

[Meljin]

"Don't get hit !"

Well, French mate, I stopped believing in Isai's advices since I realised that "Don't get hit" meant "Let CJ attack me while I do some random cocky shffl"

 

[ShroudedOne]

Meljin, that was really funny. Thanks.

 

[bubbaking]

Tope making the exact post I was going to

To add: wd oos waveshine usmash is what I do. I believe you can also just sh dair oos, but its a tight hit and good players di out of it.

Oh, I see... I apologize for my outburst...

Hello, some questions there ;

1. I am trying to focus on my gameplay and to be fully aware of what I am doing. I try to focus on one sentence at a time, and I am searching the key of winning ; should I aim "Avoid attacking when the opponent is out of range (i.e failing an attack)" or "Avoid being hit ?"

I am aware that the goal of a fighting game is to think in terms of risk & reward, and since not being it is a 100% reward, the "ultimate fighter" might reach this, but the "ultimate fighter" might also only play fox and uses shines because of its properties ; I am speaking about human capacities, and furthermore, I am more or less a middle-level player (regarding the european overall level)

I saw that the main difference between a pro and a beginner was that the pro rarely pulled an offensive move without it touching the opponent whereas the beginner triggers some weird moves totally out of range.

2. Someone on the French boards talked about the fact that KK thought that if Sheik players weren't that lazy, they would improve a lot just by being technical - Here I am, a former Fox & Falco player, which had the possibilities of doing SHDB, multishines, shines-aba at high percent...
So, I wondered... What are these move on which I could rely on ? I really want to learn new technical things since I learnt the Sheik basics ; shinostall, shfflafa & repeat, dropzone reverse neutralB - cancel - jump - neutral b - cancel ...

Thanks a lot !

Well, you know, sometimes you have to attack preemptively before the enemy actually wanders into your range, so I'd have to say that "Avoid being hit" sounds like more universally correct advice. However, even this isn't totally correct. After all, CCing is based on the premise of letting yourself get hit.

I can personally say that becoming more technical has only helped my gameplay. By the way, what do you mean by "dropzone"? Also, why do so many ppl like the "afa" notation? I really think "fair" is simpler and easier to understand.

 

[Nedved]

I can personally say that becoming more technical has only helped my gameplay. By the way, what do you mean by "dropzone"? Also, why do so many ppl like the "afa" notation? I really think "fair" is simpler and easier to understand.

Dropzone is when you drop an edge (when Falcon go for D-throw on a spacies near an edge and then drop the edge into a knee, it's called dropzone knee)

About "afa", i don't know. In France, people uses a lot AFA, but i don't know why. I use both, without distinction.

 

[bubbaking]

So basically, it's when your run off the ledge to do something. Well then that brings me to my next Q. Meljin said he does dropzone reverse needle cancel>DJ>needle cancel. What does this do? From what I can gather, this only makes Sheik grab the ledge and if so, the second needle cancel isn't needed.

 

[Nedved]

Good question. I don't know. But since drop->RNC->DJ don't grab the ledge automatically, you can NC once again because... it's cool ?

Btw you can simply drop->RNC->grab the edge without DJ. But it's not that easy :/

 

[bubbaking]

It's probably easier and more pratical to just jump and RNC or run off vanish to grab the ledge.

 

[Nedved]

Sure.
Way more easier. But if you can do it perfectly, it can be useful. I did it once ("by mistake", cause i didn't think i would do it) and it was useful (and cool tbh).
But SH RNC FF is the best option (easy and fast)

 

[bubbaking]

I saw a Shiek use the run-off vanish ledge grab to actually put out a hitbox to catch a Falcon that was chasing her. This led into a combo so I thought it was pretty cool.

 

[JustBlind]

Is there a flowchart thingy for edgeguarding fox/falco? By flowchart thingy I mean like the KK grab follow up on marth or fox's combo on sheik, where it's if he does this, I do this.

I'm really lost on edgeguarding fox/falco, usually I just needle and hope they jump into so I can jump down and fair. Also I'm really curious what's safe vs. falco's side b since a lot of my fair's just clank against it and suddenly he's on the stage and I'm out of jumps.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If they have a jump that can grab the edge: theres nothing guaranteed

If not, you have to have good reactions, like tech chasing. Stand so that the tip of your moves would go over the edge. I hold forward slightly (enough so i don't walk) so that I can ftilt sideb/upb attempts that go high. Otherwise, sideb horizontally to the edge should be covered with a dsmash (first hit covers sweetspot). Upb has a lot of angles, but generally if its from below, grab edge ASAP and bair->regrab until they die. If its from above... they have options. The safest might be to cover the on stage options so you keep the trap and don't have it reversed, but you can also make reads and cut him off. Ur all there.

 

[Meljin]

I can personally say that becoming more technical has only helped my gameplay. By the way, what do you mean by "dropzone"? Also, why do so many ppl like the "afa" notation? I really think "fair" is simpler and easier to understand.

That is because Sheik's Fair isn't fair at all :o
Well, I learnt all this vocabulary throughout Wak's How to play, and at the time (~2006), I thought that "AFA" was better than "Fair" in my opinion.

But anyway. What I described is a sort of useless trick ; basically, I drop the edge, make a reverseB to be in front of the edge, jump and do another needle, and finally cancel it when I can grab the edge.
I wanted to describe this trick to be more precise ; I know tricks, I can be technical enough, but I don't know what kind of technical tricks should I really learn.

To ask another "don't get hit" vs "don't hit without touching your opponent", I'll ask it another way ;
Do you think that % of accuracy is a thing that determines the level of a Sheik Player ?

 

[Kaffei]

Good question. I don't know. But since drop->RNC->DJ don't grab the ledge automatically, you can NC once again because... it's cool ?

Btw you can simply drop->RNC->grab the edge without DJ. But it's not that easy :/

Just do drop > RNC > Up B
Up B automatically sweetspots the ledge it's really good

Also someone please tell me how to fight Jigglypuff I hate that character

 

[stelzig]

Meljin: I think it's more about being smooth, fast, and precise in everything you do, not some technical move that you can just rely on per say. Just reducing general sloppiness, and then in some occasions of course go for the better, but more demanding options - I just don't think that is what is most critical when concering sheik needing to be more technical. Or maybe i'm wrong, this is just what i've been more concerned about myself lately.

For more specific things/"tricks":
We've discussed low AC fairs a few times (IIRC, hitting kirby with an AC fair would be near perfect). Also Nair oos where hitting puff with the strong hit of the Nair was a good indicator. Just remember that being able to do those things when practicing them, doesn't mean you've mastered them at all. You still need the timing for when to do it in real matches and string them in quickly/fluently.
Additionally, you can start practicing fast ledgedashing and shielddropping stuff, if you haven't already from playing fox.

In other news, I lost to VJ (ganondorf) for like the third or fourth time this weekend... Took a game for the first time (IIRC) though. Might post a video since KK destroys kage and must know the matchup pretty well (Even though I can't do grab>**** as simply in PAL )

Edit: I preferred AFA when I was part of the high scoring community and just communicated online. Fair is alot more practical when actually talking with people though.

 

[Meljin]

Meljin: I think it's more about being smooth, fast, and precise in everything you do, not some technical move that you can just rely on per say. Just reducing general sloppiness, and then in some occasions of course go for the better, but more demanding options - I just don't think that is what is most critical when concering sheik needing to be more technical. Or maybe i'm wrong, this is just what i've been more concerned about myself lately.

For more specific things/"tricks":
We've discussed low AC fairs a few times (IIRC, hitting kirby with an AC fair would be near perfect). Also Nair oos where hitting puff with the strong hit of the Nair was a good indicator. Just remember that being able to do those things when practicing them, doesn't mean you've mastered them at all. You still need the timing for when to do it in real matches and string them in quickly/fluently.
Additionally, you can start practicing fast ledgedashing and shielddropping stuff, if you haven't already from playing fox.

Now that you say that, I have some questions about being smooth ;
1) Sometimes, when I try to Shffl-fair, my shield comes on instead of a L-cancel ; that is because I auto-canceled my Fair ? Is there a way to be consistent at doing this ? A way to recognize when it'll be auto-canceled and when it will not be ?

2) That Nair oos is quite hard to pull ; what should I do with my thumb ? If I use the middle of my thumb (such as multishines or SHDB), Sheik will do a full jump ; If I do 2 regular presses, the Nair will only be strong if the opponent is jumping for instance...

Well, thanks a lot, I've got something to train at x)

 

[Nedved]

About the puff MU..
Just space your aerial, and wait. that's all you can do.
Use needles to make her approach, and if you can, just needle->grab->AFA (in NTSC).

To kill her, another aerial (AFA/ABA)... it's a pain.
You can edgeguard her with needle, or you can grab the edge and go for a lege hop Nair: puff player don't tech that much.

 

[Jolteon]

You can abuse crouch a lot vs puff when you have good positioning.

Also I don't think needle -> grab is worth it even in ntsc.

 

[stelzig]

Sheik's Fair autocancels really early (frame 11. Hitbox ends frame 7). I don't know what to tell you about recognizing it visually other than simply getting used to it (as with all autocancels, though some are simple to learn to use from a shorthop - like falco's Bair). The timing from a shorthop fastfall is to start the fair VERY slightly before you fastfall/reach the peak of your jump.

As for Nair oos... I use X to jump and (by the sound of it) you use Y, so I don't know how much I can tell you about that. Just be fast, and get used to not fulhopping when doing that (I know I had trouble with this in the beginning). It took me some time before I could SHDL with fox using x. And even longer till I learned to doubleshine - first learned recently, when I realised that touching A did not matter for this. I completely understand if switching between buttons like this will take some time to get used to

Edit: I would tell you to try and adjust your l-cancel timing a little so you would avoid the lightshielding issue entirely, but that could probably ruin your l-cancels after hitlag or something. But it was something I actually did to my own SH AC Fairs to cover for the missed AC and still get the l-cancel. Oh, not fullpressing the trigger when l-cancelling could help here as well, if you press it down completely at the moment - is good to learn to avoid creating an untechable window too.

 

[Meljin]

I'll try this AC stuff tonight Do you still press L lightly to cover a AC Error, or was it when you began training at AC Fairs ?

Yeah I use Y, but I think that the main difference between Y and X is the difference X/Y => B and not X/Y => A. It that case, it is more or less the same thing, in my opinion...
I'll try with both methods : sliding my thumb or pressing buttons with the end of the thumb :D

By the way, thanks for that help !

 

[stelzig]

I don't light press every time, but I do it whenever i'm unsure if I timed it right. Goes for AC nair and other aerials as well.

 

[gm jack]

I tend to (attempt) an L cancel all the time, except my nairs OoS. If you are quick off the shield button, there should be no consequences to doing one when it isn't needed (unless it is so unneeded you airdodge instead).

 

[Tope]

omg scar jump edgeguard... new meta

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Dear guy i said i'd make that gif for forever ago:

I tried, but i couldn't do anything cool. I wanted to have puff slide across the stage then rest, but really theres not a whole lot of stuff to SDI and needles have a lot of stun.

Just wanted to let you know i didnt completely forget. I just suck.

Sincerely,
Sveet

 

[bubbaking]

That is because Sheik's Fair isn't fair at all :o

Lolz, I see what you did there!

To ask another "don't get hit" vs "don't hit without touching your opponent", I'll ask it another way ;
Do you think that % of accuracy is a thing that determines the level of a Sheik Player ?

A high % accuracy would certainly be nice, but sometimes it just isn't feasible to go by that. For instance, vs Jiggs, sometimes I find myself in a position where I need to zone w/ bairs that probably won't hit her but are nonetheless put out to maintain a threat level. However, I would say your % accuracy concept would probably be indicative of skill level if it was applied to laggy, unsafe moves, such as dash attack, dsmash, etc., that should only be used in selective situations.

Also someone please tell me how to fight Jigglypuff I hate that character

Against Puff, one really big thing to remember is that Jiggs can CC almost any grounded move you have and has the ability to rest you out of a lot of them. I have two decent Jiggs players in my area, and after playing them quite a few times, I think I can say with confidence that Jiggs can crouch/CC and punish all Sheik's smashes and tilts, barring dtilt and dsmash, the multi-hitting portion of Sheik's jab, Sheik's dash attack, and even Sheik's standing grab.

Now that you've gotten used to the mentality of what Jiggs can easily punish Sheik for, you can figure a lot of stuff out. Just grabbing out of the blue is unsafe, and to be honest, needling Jiggs is effective for safely tacking on damage, but trying to get a grab setup w/ it can also be unsafe. If Jiggs is crouching for the duration of the needles and is anticipating a grab from you, a rest may be your reward. I find zoning w/ bairs while throwing in some random fairs to be effective for me. Nair is useful for how fast it comes out and can be used to get out of some tight situations, but I find bair to do the same thing more safely. If you ever do get a grab on Jiggs, it always combos into fair/uair, even at 0%, until maybe 130% or something. Same usually goes for ftilt and dtilt.

When recovering, have a fair or bair ready to ward off Jiggs, although you're still probably in big trouble since Jiggs trades or beats out all of Sheik's aerials. You can try upBing early but if Jiggs reads it, she can knock you out before you enter your invincibility. I'm not sure how needles would work in this situation, but perhaps FF as mixup can work.

To edgeguard, you can throw out some needles. Grab the ledge and throw out some safe bairs, as well. If Jiggs starts ledgestalling, do NOT allow yourself to be baited into throwing out dtilts, ftilts, or dsmashes. They probably won't hit Jiggs and she'll instantly come up and fair, bair, or bthrow you. For me, I just stay within punish range and throw out needles until she comes back on.

Hopefully, you found some bit of this be useful.

Additionally, you can start practicing fast ledgedashing and shielddropping stuff, if you haven't already from playing fox.

What's ledgedashing?

1) Sometimes, when I try to Shffl-fair, my shield comes on instead of a L-cancel ; that is because I auto-canceled my Fair ? Is there a way to be consistent at doing this ? A way to recognize when it'll be auto-canceled and when it will not be ?

In general, aerials can be AC'd in the frames both right before the hitbox comes out and right after the hitbox ends.

2) That Nair oos is quite hard to pull ; what should I do with my thumb ? If I use the middle of my thumb (such as multishines or SHDB), Sheik will do a full jump ; If I do 2 regular presses, the Nair will only be strong if the opponent is jumping for instance...

Just practice pressing the two buttons really quickly together. Eventually, you'll be able to do it on demand when you want to nair oos.

Dear guy i said i'd make that gif for forever ago:

I tried, but i couldn't do anything cool. I wanted to have puff slide across the stage then rest, but really theres not a whole lot of stuff to SDI and needles have a lot of stun.

Just wanted to let you know i didnt completely forget. I just suck.

Sincerely,
Sveet

Are you using an emulator or are you actually trying to do it yourself?

 

[Meljin]

Thanks for these answer, I'll improve a lot.
I tested these AC fairs and Nair OOS throughout Bowser Training & Friendlies, and I have to say that... These are way harder than common Fox advanced technics o_o'

I can chain AC fairs easily but I sometimes fail on the timing ; the movement goes way higher than the head of a Fox/Marth/Bowser-crouching
If I focus on the rhythm & on the timing aswell, I can chain 3 or 4 well spaced Fairs (was going to write "AFA" )

Nair OOS is impossible for me at the moment, except if I use Y to jump and Z to Nair, but I have to change R-shielding for L-shielding, thing that I usually don't do. In consequence I think I'll improve by pressing A since changing from R to L is really uncomfortable.

By the way, I'll sure comeback if I have troubles. Thanks !

 

[gm jack]

I use X and Z, and I also had to start shielding with L as well as R, but I very quickly got used to swapping what hand was shielding when I saw shield pressure situations arising.

 

[ChicknMonkey]

Dear guy i said i'd make that gif for forever ago:

I tried, but i couldn't do anything cool. I wanted to have puff slide across the stage then rest, but really theres not a whole lot of stuff to SDI and needles have a lot of stun.

Just wanted to let you know i didnt completely forget. I just suck.

Sincerely,
Sveet

Yo no problem, i can only imagine how hard it is.

 

[Ministry]

you guys are all bad.

try to do fancy **** and you cant even space ftilts.

 

[stelzig]

You should practice AC fairs (and Nair oos) on shorter characters than bowser so you can see if you're able to place them low and not just AC the Fair.

I've always shielded with L, but find doing (quick) aerials with Z a bit troublesome actually, heh. In general, I don't have a finger on either R or Z when i'm holding the controller. I only move my finger there when I go for a (JC) grab.

Bubbaking: Ledgedashing is wavedashing onto the stage from the ledge.

 

[Kaffei]

Thanks bubba.

 

[bubbaking]

No prob. Scrubs gotta look out for each other.

I use X and Z, and I also had to start shielding with L as well as R, but I very quickly got used to swapping what hand was shielding when I saw shield pressure situations arising.

Yeah, I swap my shield finger, too, but only when I WD oos.

Bubbaking: Ledgedashing is wavedashing onto the stage from the ledge.

So basically, it's ledgehop>WL onto the stage?

 

[Nedved]

So basically, it's ledgehop>WL onto the stage?

Yeah.

10chars.

 

[bubbaking]

Nice.

10chars.

 

[KirbyKaze]

you guys are all bad.

try to do fancy **** and you cant even space ftilts.

I only learned about f-tilt like 3 days ago.

What the hell have I been doing this whole time?

 

[bubbaking]

you guys are all bad.

try to do fancy **** and you cant even space ftilts.

A bunch of us know we're bad, you know. Nothing wrong with trying out fancy stuff, though.

 

[nicaboy]

If you think your bad you probably are. If you think you can do it you probably can. Dat mentality bro.

 

[Kaffei]

KK, in the Sheik ditto I always see people ftilt after dthrow at 0% but that doesn't seem to lead into anything. Isn't it better to just tech chase until like 36% ( thats the % she can jump out) then combo from there?

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, I like to look at it this way: if you know you're bad, then you know that you have a lot to improve. If think you're "good", you might unknowingly hinder your own progress. Thinking you're bad doesn't necessarily stop you from thinking that you can 'do it.'

 

[KirbyKaze]

KK, in the Sheik ditto I always see people ftilt after dthrow at 0% but that doesn't seem to lead into anything. Isn't it better to just tech chase until like 36% ( thats the % she can jump out) then combo from there?

If you can get them to do something stupid after the f-tilt (double jump) then do the f-tilt. If not then yeah it can be worth going for the tech chase.