Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[ShroudedOne]

I'm starting to realize that a lot of the things I thought were true in melee are not.
Maybe that's the reason I suck. -_-

I'm still wrong a lot. You just have to keep asking and thinking, and make sure you don't get discouraged.

Peach, Fox, or Falco.

One of the three.

Who counters Sheik that Peach could counter? Or, to put it better, why did you add Peach in there?

 

[Teczer0]

Who counters Sheik that Peach could counter? Or, to put it better, why did you add Peach in there?

I was thinking about adding peach to my list too so if I had to say what she could cover, I'd say the ICz match up, certain stage counterpicks (Brinstar if available), Falco match up, and to be able to switch up your play more primarily for doubles if you find a need to get in people's faces more.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Hmmm. Okay. I see the CPs/ICs/doubles point. But is Peach better against Falco than Sheik, you think? I would just assume that both MUs were even...

 

[Teczer0]

Not particularly no.

But there are stages that if I was more comfortable with peach with I'd go peach in the falco match up.

For instance, like Yoshi's Story, potentially PS, and FD.

Its a preference thing.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Oh, yeah. I see. Definitely for FD, you'd want Peach. Thanks.

 

[KirbyKaze]

FD Peach vs space animals > FD Sheik vs space animals because 25-death CG is really powerful, easy to do, etc.

Brinstar if it's around is a good generic CP for her. It's good for Sheik but better for Peach. The non-Puff characters people sometimes switch to on Brinstar (Falcon, Ganon) Sheik beats anyway.

She's good vs Puff on some stages that Sheik sucks on if you're into that. I think Peach is better on FoD in that specific MU but I dunno. She's good against ICs.

Fox is good against Puff and ICs and had dumb counterpicks.

Falco is good against Fox and also had dumb counterpicks. Falco is also arguably better than Sheik vs Puff, and certainly on some stages.

 

[Teczer0]

I need to work on Sheik vs Puff, admittedly if I see a puff, I'll probably just go fox and stuff.

And Dave, what makes you think that sheik vs puff is comparable to falco vs puff.

I think Falco has an incredibly easier time since he's so fast in the air, but my sheik vs puff game is kinda weak so eh.

 

[donny!]

Wow! thanks guys haha that was fast solikd good info right there!

okay now another question


Should i just drill drill drill sheik?

or would it be wish to work at a percent like say 90% sheik and 10%peach or 75%sheik 25%peach

do people really use a secondary character in a tournament?


Thanks so much for the info too guys

 

[Teczer0]

Its a preference and strategic thing, some people like Kirbykaze have been known to go very far in tournaments exclusively using sheik.

I've done well using my secondary a lot, or like Vanz have done very well using his secondaries.

Its a preference thing, but I'd say if you just started just play sheik and practice her. At least until you feel you can compete with your area's relative skill.

Then maybe you can kinda venture out a little, but stick with sheik more.

 

[donny!]

I really like ness haha is he a good secondary for sheik? x)

i dont know theres something about secondary-ing high tier characters that gives me the goose bumps , not to offend anyone.

Would ness be alright to pick up?

 

[Teczer0]

Sure, go for it.

 

[soap]

I think Marth is a solid secondary against spacies. He kinda ***** all the neutrals. Helps take some of that FD, PS pressure off my sheik.

Marth has room on the big levels to space, chase, and trap. Then when u get a grab it's a stock, or close to it.

On small levels spacies are up in your **** a bit more, so I like having sheiks dsmash/tilts.

 

[Teczer0]

Marth is who I second atm but its just because I find him fun.

I use him occasionally when I feel more comfortable with him on some stages.

The only really good thing about it is when I play spacies and I win a game, I can ban PS and be left with stages that are great for either sheik or marth.

 

[Strong Badam]

I was upset by your characters

 

[Teczer0]

I was upset by your characters

What why :<

 

[KirbyKaze]

And Dave, what makes you think that sheik vs puff is comparable to falco vs puff.

I think Falco has an incredibly easier time since he's so fast in the air, but my sheik vs puff game is kinda weak so eh.

I think Sheik has a lot of random ways to KO Puff at high percent, which is really strong. But Falco has an easier low percent game, certainly.

I dunno, pick your poison.

 

[nicaboy]

Dont get me started on sheik vs puff ^.^

Has anyone tried dthrow nair on marth on low to mid percents?I been able to do silly follow ups like dash attack or fair right after. Sometimes even purposely run up cc or sheild their move and grab them dthrow up air **** marth combo!

Oh and waveland uptilt on fox is so good I dunno why I havent been doing that more often.

Fox is the best secondary for sheik imo. Not that sheik needs one but it takes care of ics for sure and puff if you really cant do sheik vs puff. Lucky for me I second fox and falco but both of my secondaries suck vs puff.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Don't get me started on how you should have lost to Soft like 5 times in that third game but your scrubbiness trumped his scrubbiness.

 

[nicaboy]

His fault for never resting me when ever I grabbed. That last stock I just wanted end it.

kk I wanna be more solid like you. I always lose to people in super close sets . Druggedfox and my brother flamin roy got so lucky. Pp put it in my butt.

 

[Strong Badam]

What why :<

I only beat you once the entire day and it was your secondary. It's depressing how bad I am.

 

[Teczer0]

I only beat you once the entire day and it was your secondary. It's depressing how bad I am.

Not my fault you play DK.

 

[KirbyKaze]

His fault for never resting me when ever I grabbed. That last stock I just wanted end it.

kk I wanna be more solid like you. I always lose to people in super close sets . Druggedfox and my brother flamin roy got so lucky. Pp put it in my butt.

I'm just saying I expect more in that MU from a dude that trains (or trained?) with Hungrybox and claims the Puff MU is ez pz. But all cynicism aside, you won; good stuff. That's all that matters for now.

I'll need to watch the sets with Druggy and Flamin' Roy when they come out because I kind of drifted in and out of consciousness on the stream. I'm not sure how much help I'll be, but I can give you feedback if you want.

 

[nicaboy]

Match with dfox wasnt recorded. And na you dont have too I know what I must do.

I need you to stay hard on me. Makes wanna impress you more.

Oh god that didnt come out right <.<. I will be watching you amsah and tec0 at apex and steal your tricks .

Edit im pretty awful on fd. Some match ups I can do it. But for sure puff falco and fox I need to ban it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

FD emphasizes simplistic punishment & spacing in a way that other levels do not in this game.

 

[BSeeD]

Don't let people like me discourage you from asking questions. But do try to think more objectively.

Is having to wait to 3% to knock someone over with Fair (instead of zero) really as bad as Sheik being able to death-touch you when she lands just about anything? His Fair is still functionally the same in every respect except that it kills later. As a spacing & zoning tool (which is its primary purpose anyway) it's still the same move.

Be critical, come to your own conclusions. You'll find if you can think for yourself and figure out this sort of stuff then you'll be better at analysis, which makes improvement much easier IMHO.

Don't worry, in 6 years of melee, I'm just beginning to trust my judgement, I won't go back now

Huh, I was pretty sure about the fact Ganon's Fair had a significant knockback change in PAL... Am I wrong about that too ?

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's really not that significant of an adjustment, to my understanding.

 

[BSeeD]

I played NTSC for some time, then switched back to PAL.
Am gonna ask the french boards 'bout that, cause I'm pretty sure it's significant enough.

PAL Ganons are using more Bair than Fair because of that.

 

[Strong Badam]

Not my fault you play DK.

My character choice is irrelevant, I just suck.

 

[gm jack]

I played NTSC for some time, then switched back to PAL.
Am gonna ask the french boards 'bout that, cause I'm pretty sure it's significant enough.

PAL Ganons are using more Bair than Fair because of that.

It is significant, but not significant enough to prevent you using it when it you otherwise. It does encourage more bair use to kill, but fair is still excellent for spacing and pretty strong.

 

[BSeeD]

It's really not that significant of an adjustment, to my understanding.

Ok, so I had some precisions about differences in Ganon's Fair.

Apparently, if u compare both NTSC and PAL knockback curves for Fair, they melt at high %.

BUT at low % you don't get off the ground while hit by Ganon's Fair in PAL version.
Then knockback stays low till mid %.

 

[Strong Badam]

? The KB grows at the same rate in NTSC and PAL, there's just less initial KB (KB that is applied regardless of their %)

 

[t3h Icy]

What are some nice ways to get Fox to 40% besides Grabbing? And is it generally better to fight in the air/platforms until Fox is ~40%? I've been fighting low% Fox grounded, and it doesn't seem to work all that well.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hit them with any 3 of the following (you can use the same option as many times as you want):

aerial
grab (often counts as 2+)
full set needles (tricky for multiple uses)
d-smash
up tilt > grab (counts as 2)

I think using platforms & air game is really good vs Fox because repositioning and baiting him into attacking and then moving back unexpectedly is a good way to get grabs. Also, your bair is really long.

Nurgle.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

d-smashing at low percents will get you hit by good foxes even if you do connect though so be careful.

agree with KK tho -
Aerial, needle or u-tilt --> grab are the bread and butter setups

 

[t3h Icy]

Appreciated! :D

 

[Ministry]

needles retreating fair., make them miss space moves and punish. don't approach fully but keep middle stage control. get them to 40 or so then dont drop combos

all while not getting hit.

 

[Kaffei]

How do I get inside in sheik dittos

 

[joejoe22802]

Make them do bad approaches and block, move, or trade. Or pressure then and make them move.

 

[Kaffei]

Idk how do make them do bad approaches or pressure x.x
Also can Sheik's Nair beat Fox/Falco's?

 

[silentSWAG]

short hop nair is a bad idea against fox it can beat foxes nair, but if fox cc's it then you are in a realy bad position (above him). nair does come out in 3 frames, but be cautious. foxes also like to come from above with a full hop and dair you into grab/shine. because us sheiks have a tendency to dsmash alot. thats when sheiks full hop nair can work. ( short hop bair works SOO much better).

falcos short hop is a little higher so sheiks short hop nair can beat some of his approaches. falcos sometimes try to come in from a full hop, but when they do just try to beat his dair with uair, or just wave dash back and punish.