Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[DJRome]

Don't try to guess when your grab animation is over, instead, look at where the enemy sheik is and throw out a grab before she gets too low for a grab to connect.

could u elaborate more? if i react to the enemy sheik, aren't i even slower? i've been trying this on slower speeds and it doesn't work. . . is there maybe a video i can watch? i'll try the jc grabs. . .

wavedash on the stage. you can shield whatever attack they do. also ledge stall more... getting back is tricky but if you act quick enough your ledge invincibility carries through. wavedash on the stage to ftilt or buffered roll works too.

i feel like even if i wd onto the stage into shield, i get fsmashed. . . maybe i should reset i-frames and immediately wd on? but then it might get predictable. . .

use needles or grab so they can't CC. or CC dsmash back.

this recently has been a problem of spacy cc grab or falco cc dtilt or fox cc usmash. . . idk. . .

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

could u elaborate more? if i react to the enemy sheik, aren't i even slower? i've been trying this on slower speeds and it doesn't work. . . is there maybe a video i can watch? i'll try the jc grabs. . .

you're talking chaingrabbing, right? after you throw there are ~20 frames between when they are thrown and when you can control your character again. use those frames to see which way they are moving then when you can move, run and JC grab them (actually, dash grab is better because you get more range with the same grab frames)

i feel like even if i wd onto the stage into shield, i get fsmashed. . . maybe i should reset i-frames and immediately wd on? but then it might get predictable. . .

if you perfect ledgedash as soon as you grab the edge, you have invincibility through your whole waveland. usually you want to grab or ftilt asap, because shield is redundant (you're already invincible) and makes you immobile.

 

[pockyD]

(actually, dash grab is better because you get more range with the same grab frames)

dash grab is actually a frame slower

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Dash grab and jump cancel grab are the same speed. Standing grab is one frame faster than the two.

 

[SPAWN]

How many frames are there (when chaingrabbing) from when you're able to grab again to regrab sheik at 0 (in sheik dittos obv)?

Edit: by using dash grab

 

[Batmansince1939]

Spawn who do you main? in melee? and will you be going to pound?

 

[SPAWN]

Sheik and I'll be going to pound. I use Fox almost exclusively in friendlies unless people wanna play my Sheik lol.

Why do you ask?

 

[Charlesz]

yo how do you reverse needle aerial cancel? thanks.

 

[Teczer0]

Basically during your jump, preferably the start of your jump tap the opposite direction you are facing then press and hold B. When you want to stop charging press L/R and you'll be in the neutral position in mid-air.

 

[Lordydennek]

When should I use the dair? And who is it most effective against?

 

[Pimpfish]

I counter picked yoshis island(or story i forget which one is the nuetral stage but thats the one) at a tournement last weekend vs peach. i was hoping for quick up air kills and it worked, i won the match. i was wondering if there was a better counter pick vs peach. or what my options are.

 

[Charlesz]

Basically during your jump, preferably the start of your jump tap the opposite direction you are facing then press and hold B. When you want to stop charging press L/R and you'll be in the neutral position in mid-air.

alright thanks tec.

 

[DJRome]

you're saying there's 20 frames where i can get the grab off? maybe im being REALLY slow or something, but either i do it too late, or else i do it too early and the dash input isn't read as it's still the throw animation. or is there something idk because it's definitely really really hard

 

[Devil Ray]

edgeguard help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Ow9S_ndXk

that match is reno vs hazzard. pretty good matches. but watch it from 3:28. at the end, hazzard gets recovers at a remarkable angle....and then wins the match with an upthrow--upair. what would have been the right move for sheik?

cuz this is a situation where sheik's bair was too long. even if it hit, only the center of sheik's body would have made it(the soft part). i watched the end a bunch of times. i'm not sure what the best move was.

 

[Plairnkk]

he couldve waited longer and baired

i wouldve hit the fox with a reverse f-air, though



drephen would say get up and dsmash

 

[Devil Ray]

he couldve waited longer and baired

i wouldve hit the fox with a reverse f-air, though



drephen would say get up and dsmash

see, i thought that too. but i watched it more and i got even more confused.


if he waited, hazz could have dropped down and hanged back to ff to the ledge. but he also could have got straight. he was higher than bfield's ledge line. i don't think there's a sure-fire answer to this one. i really don't. that's a really tough angle in my opinion.

edit: this is where sheik could use a halfway decent fsmash

 

[DJRome]

i'd either nair or fair. likely fair. at that angle, either hit him forward and edgeguard more or backwards fair would kill. since the angle is obvious early, it's probably best to get on and turnaround ftilt the edge so that it guarantees a fair. also, i try not to dsmash when im on the stage with fox neutral positions when im at high %.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Huh. I wouldn't've been on the edge at all. Looks like a needle from stage level woulda worked.

 

[unknown522]

what would have been the right move for sheik?

Bair was fine.

Almost any move would have worked.

He just had horrible timing.

- KK

 

[Pimpfish]

lets say you had just dsmashed fox in that matchup. if the shiek wanted to ledge grab, would it be faster to turn around and wavedash to leadge or do that flashy vanish trick to the ledge?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Wavedashing.

 

[Teczer0]

Double Vanish actually takes a long time to finish lawl. I find it quite impractical in a real match actually.

 

[Devil Ray]

Bair was fine.

Almost any move would have worked.

He just had horrible timing.

- KK

nope nope. a bair would NOT have finished him off. i promise you this. dj rome was right. you have to do the gay-drephen-ftilt-to-fair edgeguard.

if the fox opponent can't auto-sweet spot, can land on either the ledge or the ground, you NEVER grab the ledge on battlefield. just don't do it. it's not worth it. just stand on the ledge and ftilt, needle, or possible dsmash(risky).

if you can edgeguard using a backair from below the stage, that's different. but grabbing the ledge to wait for a landing is not good. and fyi, what happened to reno happens to me alllll the timmme.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Wait, I thought you were asking the question? Why do you already have this ridiculous answer to it?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ray, if he hit with the bair (timed CORRECTLY) fox would have been under the edge without a jump. simply wavedashing to the edge and bairing fox again would have finished the stock.

When you're edgeguarding, just get ANY hit to keep it going. Every hit doesn't have to be a finisher.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Devil Ray, you can think that if you wish to, but you're completely wrong.

 

[Devil Ray]

i'm telling you, there is no way a bair is hitting that mofo. even if it magically did, he could have been sent upwards and away. hazzard had a great angle. alternatively, if he got hit with a fair and sent to the other side, then he'd tech and get back on stage.

a bair wasn't going to hit him. watch it again. he landed on the stage. hazzard was way too far to auto-sweet spot so he went up at a great angle. grabbing the ledge was the WRONG move.

 

[Teczer0]

I saw the video and I don't see why you think a bair is an impossibility.

Personally I think Nair would have been the best option since the nair has a good hitback in the center of sheik but if you're confident about hitting the reverse fair, it'd be ideal.

Also if reno DID manage to hit the bair, you're right he probably would have been sent up and away. But he could easily link a fair right after the bair.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You're not hitting him out of his Firefox you're hitting him when he's falling >__>

He could have ledgehop Daired into Dair Fair and made it work. He could have done about 6 different things and had them work. He just completely failed the timing.

 

[Devil Ray]

edit:

He could have ledgehop Daired into Dair Fair and made it work. He could have done about 6 different things and had them work. He just completely failed the timing.

ledgehop dair??? wtf? if you can hit that, major props. as for myself, i couldnt even close to making that

consider this:
hazzard can't autosweet spot; too far
he can't go straight; pause at 3:31 you see that he's slightly above the line to the ledge
he's only at 100% so you probably need to hit him at least twice.
if hazzard saw the bair coming, he could have slowed down his fall to the ledge or ground.

standing on the ground, f-tilt to fair is the much better edgeguard. bair was the wrong move

 

[pockyD]

nah .

 

[Twin_A]

I liked Sveets advice. Any hit that would have kept it going is suffice. You have to remember that he had a lot of pressure on him and he may have been nervous. As well maybe he did want the nair and just reacted wrong with his hands. In those situations just do what you know will hit and keep it going until you feel confident in your finisher (don't wait too long tho obviously)

 

[KirbyKaze]

edit:


ledgehop dair??? wtf? if you can hit that, major props. as for myself, i couldnt even close to making that

consider this:
hazzard can't autosweet spot; too far
he can't go straight; pause at 3:31 you see that he's slightly above the line to the ledge
he's only at 100% so you probably need to hit him at least twice.
if hazzard saw the bair coming, he could have slowed down his fall to the ledge or ground.

standing on the ground, f-tilt to fair is the much better edgeguard. bair was the wrong move

The best thing to do would be to chase him down offstage with Fair or Bair (or needling him) but grabbing the edge was fine.

I've already told you, in this situation the intention is not to hit him out of the Firefox. You're hitting him during descent after the Firefox has worn off. Teczero and Sveet were even nice enough to provide a follow for the Bair, because the Bair itself wouldn't have instant KOed but it would have continued the edgeguard and put him in another unrecoverable position.

F-tilt --> Fair is fine. Nobody's saying F-tilt --> Fair wouldn't work. However, you're completely wrong that Bair wouldn't work.

edit: Ledgehop Dair is situationally good.

 

[Devil Ray]

I liked Sveets advice. Any hit that would have kept it going is suffice. You have to remember that he had a lot of pressure on him and he may have been nervous. As well maybe he did want the nair and just reacted wrong with his hands. In those situations just do what you know will hit and keep it going until you feel confident in your finisher (don't wait too long tho obviously)

i used to think that, but the fair isn't going send him way across or any other aerial. i honestly think hazz would have teched either a platform or the ground. i know what you mean tho, that match was really close. i would have been nervous too

to KK's point, i gotta disagree with that. i think grabbing the ledge was a mistake. reno tried doing what you said, hitting him on the descent.

in some situations on battlefield, grabbing the ledge isn't the best choice.

 

[KirbyKaze]

So because he screwed up it was the wrong play?

What if he mistimed the F-tilt and it missed the Firefox and he got Firefox --> Uaired and died? Would that also have been the wrong play?

Nobody's said anything about grabbing the edge being the best choice. The truth is, he had a bunch of "right" choices, including needles --> follow, ledgehop aerial, onstage edgeguard (such as F-tilt), and offstage edgeguard and he failed the timing. The best one for that recovery was to needle or jump offstage with a move because he committed to the Firefox and was vulnerable. But all of the options listed could have worked; he simply screwed up.

 

[Devil Ray]

first of all, i'm not sure if he was in range for the back air. it's not a sure thing, but other people htink it's possible so it's debatable.

secondly, how many times have you messed up an ftilt on a falling fox? it's a LOT easier. ask drephen

3rdly, how many times have you messed up a bair edgeguard like that? EVERY sheik messes that up at one point. i probably do it like half a dozen times in tourney

the f-tilt is much easier and has crazy range. ftlt is a good idea, but the point is that grabbing the ledge wasn't going to ensure a kill. that's my point.

 

[Teczer0]

The bair would definitely have the range. It would easily cover the edge and then some.

I've messed up both the ftilt and bair edgeguards pretty rarely. They're both fairly simple to land.

In terms of range I think bair is better. Its more mobile and it has more range as a move.

The only thing that would "ensure" the KO would be hitting the timing right and just don't hesitate.

 

[KirbyKaze]

1) He was in range.

2) I'm not disputing that F-tilt is easier, I'm saying that Bair was perfectly viable and that he messed up. I don't even think it's a hard timing in that situation; it's pretty easy. Harder than F-tilt --> Fair? Sure. But it's still very, very easy.

3) If you mess up a lot, I pity you, but that doesn't change that it was a fine play gone awry. Your own personal shortcomings have nothing to do with the viability of certain edgeguards in certain situations.

4) If he did it right, grabbing the edge --> Bair would have ensured the kill. Trouble is, he did it wrong. He could have done anything wrong. Again, if he messed up F-tilt --> Fair would it have been a wrong play?

 

[Devil Ray]

dude, he landed on the stage. reno covering the ledge didn't matter.

kk, i'm sure there are recorded vids of you messing that bair edgeguard too. personal shots are whatever, but no player is perfect. i've messed up plenty of those.

 

[Teczer0]

Try rewatching the video and look how low Reno tried to bair Hazzard.

He jumped off the edge too quickly.

Also the bair would cover ledge, a bit off the ledge, and a part of the stage.