Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Ekans647]

For weaker players you practice fundamentals. You also practice the very subtle art of giving your opponent just enough space to kill themselves. For example you space yourself about a rolls distance away and then walk forward a bit. Most noobs will roll right at you on reaction to seeing you move. Then you punish. That's once example, but truly this is Marth's meta in a nutshell. Creating a threat through proximity and the possibility of an attack. Vs noobs they will just do something on instinct that gets them killed.

You know you are a master when a high level player kills themself without you actually doing alot.

So you present your opponent with a false opening and punish them for it? The first thing that pops to mind are empty hops.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty much. That is his gameplan. Outspace, outpoke, punish hard when they fall for a bait and put them in a trap situation and flow from those situations into another. Preferably any trap scenario then transition to ledge trap and keep the fight at the ledge. Not very difficult to cover options and stay safe.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Holy **** I am so frustrated right now, I know Marth has more range on his moves, but on the move where having good range matters the most it just haaaaaaaaaaad to be nerfed by giving is WAY less range. What am I talking about? Marth's f-smash. It is pretty much out-ranged by everyone else's f-smash. Even Ness has more range.

Man I cannot wait until Dragon Ball Xenoverse comes out so that I can take A LONG break from smash. Once I get my hands on that game I will probably only be playing smash with my friends, because I have pretty much stopped learning from playing on FG since everyone there SUCKS or are so much better than me that I can't even learn how to get better since everything I try gets punished, even if it is something I have not tried to do against them. @ Random4811 I know how you feel, for me it is with both my Falcon and Marth. I don't understand why,but I only play at my best when I play my friends, and it is not because they are not good since they beat me most of the time. I hope I can end up like Azen who pretty much did not play Smash for a year and somehow came back playing better then before.

 

[Ekans647]

So I'm going to practice not always throwing out attacks. I want to be able to precisely punish and pressure my opponent. It will allow me to mind game better as well. Is there any advice you could give me regarding this, specifically in the neutral?

 

[Random4811]

I wasnt /just/ playing. I was practicing fundamentals, and then working on specific parts of my play. Namely my edgeguarding, as it has really sucked recently. I just wasnt seeming to get anywhere with my practice, despite practicing pretty well constantly. I took a short break and came back, did pretty well. I think I just needed a rest. I've been kinda stressed recently.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

What are other kill options besides f smash? Against good players I can never land an f smash to kill. Shieldbreaker also does not really work well against good players since they usually just hit me during its start up or move out of the way before they get hit.

 

[Random4811]

What are other kill options besides f smash? Against good players I can never land an f smash to kill. Shieldbreaker also does not really work well against good players since they usually just hit me during its start up or move out of the way before they get hit.

Uthrow with a lil bit of rage. Stage spiked fair/dair is really good too. Other than that, Dsmash is really good and its fairly easy to set up. Also good for edgeguarding. Dancing blade up or to the side is pretty good for kill power.

 

[Locuan]

I met @ Shaya and played some friendlies against him at APEX. We also played some friendlies as a team against others and pretty much dominated as Marth/Lucina for the most part :3

 

[Quickhero]

Just fought a pretty good Marth on the 3DS whose name was nhjijv! The person actually spaced pretty well and got a nice kill on me and really did react well, (not well enough to win, but still really well!) and it was an awesome ditto. (S)he even taunted at the beginning of the match with me so that already made me excited to play this guy.

This user probably hangs around at this boards, so all around ggs to this guy/girl.

 

[Icyie]

I've been looking to drop marth lately after getting demolished by Sheik/ZSS/Villagers, but I keep coming back to him. So far I've tried ZSS (can't do well with her whatever I do), Peach (most fun option yet), Pit, Fox, Capt. Falcon, and Pikachu. Which of these chars would probably do best? Trying to go for a well-rounded char that can deal with both zoners and rushdown. Getting walled-out by lloid rockets/paralyzers is annoying as Marth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth actually does ok vs Villager. So if you are having trouble vs him honestly it's probably just you and switching chars wont do too much.

CF has the easiest time with Villager though. Still thats just one match and CF loses to several top tiers himself. Both CF and Marth lose to ZSS for example.

 

[Icyie]

Probably, I do horribly vs campy and defensive characters. Results-wise, I do best with CF but I feel like they both will have problems with projectile zoners. Any tips for the Marth/Villager matchup? I usually get my kills with offstage stuff, and Villager is a nightmare for me with his recovery. And then when playing on-stage, I get impatient when he just walls with lloids and slingshots.

I guess it's back to the training room for me.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Is it just me or are Shulk players kind of the opposite of Lucina players? Lucina players have a sort of unspoken hateful rivalry with Marth, while Shulk seem to have an unnspoken friendly rivalry with Marth players. Lucina is like Marth's ex girlfriend who hates him and Shulk is like Marth's best friend. Is that just me who thinks that?

 

[Ekans647]

Is it just me or are Shulk players kind of the opposite of Lucina players? Lucina players have a sort of unspoken hateful rivalry with Marth, while Shulk seem to have an unnspoken friendly rivalry with Marth players. Lucina is like Marth's ex girlfriend who hates him and Shulk is like Marth's best friend. Is that just me who thinks that?

Yeah. I've never had one salty match against a Shulk. Those matches are always fun and the players are always friendly. Probably because they really feel it.

 

[Comet7]

Hey guys I found a great vid for how to approach the ditto/Lucina MU. This'll definitely help me up my game since I tend to stink with dittos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXAJBMS2Fr8

 

[EnGarde]

Hey guys I found a great vid for how to approach the ditto/Lucina MU. This'll definitely help me up my game since I tend to stink with dittos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXAJBMS2Fr8

Obviously the best way to handle Marth is to go 2v1 with items on.

LOL you actually posted it. You can haz the interwebz.

 

[Cazdon]

Anyone know any good alternative Marth playstyles aside from the typical spacing game? I was watching old videos of Ken and saw how aggressive he was compared to other Marths. I know this isn't melee and I know Marth has been nerfed hard but if anyone knows any other players that play Marth a bit differently from the usually patient spacing game, I'd definitely like to see them.

 

[Ekans647]

Anyone know any good alternative Marth playstyles aside from the typical spacing game? I was watching old videos of Ken and saw how aggressive he was compared to other Marths. I know this isn't melee and I know Marth has been nerfed hard but if anyone knows any other players that play Marth a bit differently from the usually patient spacing game, I'd definitely like to see them.

Unfortunately, Marth's nerfs were very hard on him. He simply no longer has the speed and range to play aggressively. It's not that he benefits from spacing and frame traps, but relies on them. His attacks are too laggy for him to continually pressure the opponent. In Melee and Brawl you play more offensively, but not in SSB4.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Unfortunately, Marth's nerfs were very hard on him. He simply no longer has the speed and range to play aggressively. It's not that he benefits from spacing and frame traps, but relies on them. His attacks are too laggy for him to continually pressure the opponent. In Melee and Brawl you play more offensively, but not in SSB4.

It is not his speed or range that hurts him in this game.

It's his frame data plain and simple.

 

[Ekans647]

It is not his speed or range that hurts him in this game.

It's his frame data plain and simple.

By frame data are you referring to the placement of his hitboxes or the when his hitboxes activate along with the startup and ending lag? I should've specified, but it was referring to Marth's cool down lag for his attacks, not his mobility.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Anyone know any good alternative Marth playstyles aside from the typical spacing game? I was watching old videos of Ken and saw how aggressive he was compared to other Marths. I know this isn't melee and I know Marth has been nerfed hard but if anyone knows any other players that play Marth a bit differently from the usually patient spacing game, I'd definitely like to see them.

If he had less lag/ start up on his aerials then yes,but unfortunately in this game you can't really play aggressively with Marth. The only time where being aggressive is useful with him is to mix things up on your opponent.

 

[Quickhero]

CROSS YOUR FINGERS TOMORROW GUYS, I HOPE THIS NEXT PATCH WILL SHORTEN THE LAG ON MARTH'S AERIALS.

...Or even a Diddy and Sheik nerf would be nice, for the game balance and Marth because nerfing two of Marth's hardest match-ups will be nice.

EDIT: NEVER MIND I thought this patch was going to do something good like actually patch this game but nope god damn it.

 

[Shaya]

So I think I've found myself to be somewhat consistently doing that landing cancel thing with Marth, in part probably due to short hop air dodge stuff.

Short hop air dodge into fast fall fair may actually perfectly line up for a relatively consistent input, if not, the 'hold' delay before fast falling or inputting fair is seemingly easy to get used to.

Something about forward air to dancing blade, dash grab or down tilt makes me happy.

 

[kj22]

So I think I've found myself to be somewhat consistently doing that landing cancel thing with Marth, in part probably due to short hop air dodge stuff.

Short hop air dodge into fast fall fair may actually perfectly line up for a relatively consistent input, if not, the 'hold' delay before fast falling or inputting fair is seemingly easy to get used to.

Something about forward air to dancing blade, dash grab or down tilt makes me happy.

What landing cancel thing are you talking about?

 

[Locuan]

What landing cancel thing are you talking about?

I'm almost certain he is referring to this except applied to Marth:

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I REALLY want to learn how to do this,but I have no idea how to get frame data on your own.

 

[Ekans647]

I'm almost certain he is referring to this except applied to Marth:

Does this apply to all aerials? That would be so sweet.

 

[Cazdon]

Does this apply to all aerials? That would be so sweet.

As far as I know it "should". From my understanding, it's using fast fall and landing in the first frame of your attack, so your landing lag starts as their hitstun starts, and if your landing lag is shorter than the hitstun, (not all moves have enough hitstun) then you can follow up. Research is required.

 

[Emblem Lord]

With frame perfect timing one could theoretically create true safe pressure and frame traps where the opponent is stuck in block stun and cannot do any offensive action or they will get stuffed by your next attack. This also opens up combo opportunities.

 

[kj22]

With frame perfect timing one could theoretically create true safe pressure and frame traps where the opponent is stuck in block stun and cannot do any offensive action or they will get stuffed by your next attack. This also opens up combo opportunities.

Not sure if it works if it hits shields though, the video stated falcos fairwill never landing canel if it hits a shield.
This gives us more followups out of our aerials (if they hit)

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

For weaker players you practice fundamentals. You also practice the very subtle art of giving your opponent just enough space to kill themselves. For example you space yourself about a rolls distance away and then walk forward a bit. Most noobs will roll right at you on reaction to seeing you move. Then you punish. That's once example, but truly this is Marth's meta in a nutshell. Creating a threat through proximity and the possibility of an attack. Vs noobs they will just do something on instinct that gets them killed.

You know you are a master when a high level player kills themself without you actually doing alot.

I can attest to this as of late after picking Marth now and keeping on gearing with him. Not always best of course, but it feels good to feel in par, or even better than someone within a good level.

Also um, I'm hopping to Marth-wagon here.

 

[Ekans647]

I can attest to this as of late after picking Marth now and keeping on gearing with him. Not always best of course, but it feels good to feel in par, or even better than someone within a good level.

Also um, I'm hopping to Marth-wagon here.

Once you get used to it, spacing and fundamentals become second nature. I actually just played a great Villager on FG who has an amazon knowledge and application of fundamentals. S/he threatened my space incredibly with great usage of Fair and Lloid Rocket. Once s/he got into my space, she would frame trap me with Lloid Rocket --> Grab. When, s/he would return to the ledge, s/he'd pop up and poke me with Fair. It turned into this great match where she would pressure me with his/her projectiles and I would try to invade his/her space. I managed to win my using Fsmash when s/he was ledge-camping with Fair. It was a exhilarating match and a great example of smart application of fundamentals.

 

[Random4811]

I REALLY want to learn how to do this,but I have no idea how to get frame data on your own.

All you have to do is connect an aerial at the moment that you land. It takes a lot of practice. I believe your hitbox has to connect to their hurtbox at the same time that you land, and your landing lag cancels a good bit of your aerial's lag because of the game processes multiple lag at the same time (Or so I would assume.)

It is hard to pull off, but it could be worthwhile.

Especially playing Captain Falcon. It can lead to double knees.

Also @ Emblem Lord What about ZSS vs. CF makes it bad for CF? I've never had too much trouble with ZSS as Marth/CF.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just more options, can't be trapped, better screen control, good comboability, greater reward. Basically she can hang with Marth in mobility and play at his range but get more out of it.

Just had a nice session with NEO. Marth vs Lucina. Most games were close but he won all of them as Lucina. Spacing was pretty even, but his mastery over the Falchion was greater than mine as was his movement control. We both agreed Marcina is not played optimally now.

They require a **** ton of lab work to be good at high level. It is quite the endeavor.

 

[kj22]

Just more options, can't be trapped, better screen control, good comboability, greater reward. Basically she can hang with Marth in mobility and play at his range but get more out of it.

Just had a nice session with NEO. Marth vs Lucina. Most games were close but he won all of them as Lucina. Spacing was pretty even, but his mastery over the Falchion was greater than mine as was his movement control. We both agreed Marcina is not played optimally now.

They require a **** ton of lab work to be good at high level. It is quite the endeavor.

Any recordings?

 

[Random4811]

Just more options, can't be trapped, better screen control, good comboability, greater reward. Basically she can hang with Marth in mobility and play at his range but get more out of it.

Just had a nice session with NEO. Marth vs Lucina. Most games were close but he won all of them as Lucina. Spacing was pretty even, but his mastery over the Falchion was greater than mine as was his movement control. We both agreed Marcina is not played optimally now.

They require a **** ton of lab work to be good at high level. It is quite the endeavor.

I see what you mean.
And what about CF?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Same reasons really. CF's thing is great reward from grabs. ZSS has better reward and she has great air traps which is what CF hates. He is very poor when being put in bad situations in the air.

No recordings, sadly.

 

[Shaya]

They require a **** ton of lab work to be good at high level. It is quite the endeavor.

Let me know when we find a way to deal with dash grab OoS from the entire cast. Because otherwise, Marth is pretty broken still in terms of what he does in match ups that don't devolve into "wait and shield, free win against the Falchions", he can handle just about every character's respectful playing state but gets absurdly **** on otherwise.

 

[Emblem Lord]

When are you getting dash grabbed? When NEO and I played dash grabs occurred off reads only. We never aerialed a shield. Ever.

If one of us shielded. we just waited. Walk up to them and wait at optimal range. They have to move. Only moves used in neutral were jab and d-tilt. Safe on block. No one is dash grabbing that OoS. Stop trying to pressure after they are blocked. SH back or just wait and react. Yeah it sucks. But accept it. You are getting grabbed because you want to hit buttons. stop. Threaten more so with your stage presence and movement. Less so with your sword.

Bait your opponent into playing footsies with you and slowly draw them into their own demise.

Train your movement bro. It's a different and fun way to play him. And it can be very effective vs chars that must play the midrange game such as other swordsmen.

 

[Random4811]

Same reasons really. CF's thing is great reward from grabs. ZSS has better reward and she has great air traps which is what CF hates. He is very poor when being put in bad situations in the air.

No recordings, sadly.

I think he manages to make up for it by being able to plow through her projectile and clash with a lot of her attacks with jab/dash attack.