Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Vipermoon]

Good write up, but Sakurai is really stubborn. I wonder if he'll even watch the tournament, lol or if we'll even have Marths there.

 

[Quickhero]

Good write up, but Sakurai is really stubborn. I wonder if he'll even watch the tournament, lol or if we'll even have Marths there.

Yeah, I know he is frustratingly stubborn. I wish he would just understand that a lot of pressure would be off him if he just occasionally watches the competitive scene and observe problems he sees, then listening to successful players make elaborate points about problems with a certain character and how to fix them once every 3-4 months would be great. After Apex would be a perfect time to do this, and having elaborate input from people who have shown to be working well in the tournament with a certain character (or even just the winner) would work incredibly well to both give the metagame some time, make it not super stressful, and lead to a more balanced and interesting to watch metagame. (Though, to give credit, while Sheik and Diddy are ridiculous, the game still is less power creeped then previous Smash games like Brawl) Of course, this is probably just useless ramble and Sakurai will likely not give any meaningful buffs/nerfs even in the eventual patch where Mewtwo is released.

It's highly likely that Mr. E will join and play Marth there, since apparently he lives close to there. I'm not sure, but hey even 1 Marth player at Apex is good.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah, I know he is frustratingly stubborn. I wish he would just understand that a lot of pressure would be off him if he just occasionally watches the competitive scene and observe problems he sees, then listening to successful players make elaborate points about problems with a certain character and how to fix them once every 3-4 months would be great. After Apex would be a perfect time to do this, and having elaborate input from people who have shown to be working well in the tournament with a certain character (or even just the winner) would work incredibly well to both give the metagame some time, make it not super stressful, and lead to a more balanced and interesting to watch metagame. (Though, to give credit, while Sheik and Diddy are ridiculous, the game still is less power creeped then previous Smash games like Brawl) Of course, this is probably just useless ramble and Sakurai will likely not give any meaningful buffs/nerfs even in the eventual patch where Mewtwo is released.

It's highly likely that Mr. E will join and play Marth there, since apparently he lives close to there. I'm not sure, but hey even 1 Marth player at Apex is good.

I absolutely love Mr. E's work. And I hope he does well. But part of me (don't think of me as a bad person) hopes all Smash 4 Marths do poorly just incase Nintendo wants to study this tourney for a future patch.

 

[CURRY]

I personally don't want anything changed, lol
Just... no more patches, please. I was pretty excited to finally be part of a developing metagame for a Smash game, especially since I got into Smash when I JUST heard about Smash 4, about ~1.5 years ago.
So I played Brawl, but at the time, Brawl was dying/dead. Seeing all these 2009 posts of amazing people developing the metagame was super cool to me (I was seriously so excited when I saw that Emblem Lord posted Promotion to the Great Lord, since I never saw him posting on the Brawl Marth subforums when I started playing competitively), so when I heard about the 3DS getting patches, I died a bit on the inside. It's kinda hard for a game to get as much depth as something like Brawl did when things are constantly being changed.

I dunno, I just kind of had the mentality that anything is possible in Smash-- especially since when I started looking into Smash, I was TOTALLY shocked at the fact that Zelda was bottom tier. The fact that MK had kill power, and that Dair spam was BAD for Toon?? All very foreign ideas that were apparently true.
If you look at the earliest videos of Brawl, people are playing HORRIBLY. Even if a player as inexperienced as I had went back in time and played against them, no one would have stood a chance. They simply didn't know how to play characters at the best of their potential in the early metagame.
Fast forward to early 2013/late 2012, when the last Brawl matches were being streamed by major streamers-- you have things like Salem vs. M2K that are SO tense and flashy that even some Melee players came to appreciate the game a little more. At this point, most everyone had figured out their characters' strengths and weaknesses, and found ways to work around it.

I really think that watching the metagame develop over the years is going to a lot more rewarding than wishing that Marth was exactly the same as his Brawl/Melee iterations, and doing nothing about the current Marth.
Of course, there's the possibility that in the end, Marth is just as screwed over as Falcon was in Brawl, at which point, I might just move on to a top/mid tier. But still, I would much rather see the metagame develop than have Sakurai patch out more things.

(The patches thing is also the main reason why I didn't want to play Project M competitively)

 

[Zano]

patches are fine as long as they are within reason, don't exaggerate it

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's impossible for Marth to be as screwed over as Falcon. Falcon has mostly 3/7s in brawl and doesn't beat anyone.

So from a match-up point of view thats literally impossible.

 

[Shaya]

Falcon worse match ups were probably more 2/8s in reality (Pika, ICs, Dedede), but his match ups with grab release characters were good/workable, and against Marth it could've been as good as 60:40 Marth's favour, but likely 65:35. Falcon was def low tier in Brawl but playing in and around the strengths of his uair, jab and mobility gave some semblance of a solid character. Heck, there was falcons doing well early on in Brawl tournaments.

I think saying Marth got Falcon'd is a good comparison as the amount of structural nerfs to the characters are numerous in both transitions, just that Marth's tools are universally potent to an extent due to disjoints, but they may be overrated.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's biggest nerf is the no ledge pushback.

That effectively kills his ability to bully his opponent. Now he MUST take a risk to stay in control at the edge of the stage or risk letting them out of his control.

Ridiculous.

 

[Shaya]

Please, you know effectively putting 50-100% more lag on every aerial option is a lot worse.

And that scenario does kinda suck because Marth doesn't really out-do anyone else here because you would be relying on the fear of dash grabs to force errors/pressure your opponent around that area.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Though if he got Falcon'd in this game maybe he might get Smash 4 Falcon'd in the next game? Ah, what am I saying that is too long from now and Sakurai even said this might be the last Smash game.

 

[Novaseer]

I thought of something that might be worth testing. The Jigglypuff board has know for a while that rest's frame one invincibility can punish gaps between certain jabs. The aerial version of Marth's Dolphin slash is also frame one invincible, so it might be able to punish some of the same gaps. I'll quote the list of punishable moves the Jigglypuff users compiled. It comes from this video.

Many rapid Jabs have one-frame gaps between specific hits which allow you to Down-B for a punish on reaction. Crouch canceling also makes this possible against a couple of characters it otherwise wouldn't work against.

Because of the large buffer window, you can actually mash it out like an idiot, which is great!

All percents are affected by Rage, and all my numbers assume Jigglypuff and the opponent are at the same percent, so it will vary slightly depending on how much damage your opponent has taken prior.

Works even without crouch canceling:
Bowser Jr. - Jab2 under 15% (must be close)
Diddy - Jab2 under 40%
G&W - Jab1 under 90%
Little Mac - Rapid Jab under ~20%
Sheik - Jab2 under 50%
Robin - Jab1 under 20%
Kirby - Jab2 under 90% (must be very close)
Fox - Just crouch Jab1 and Down-B
Falco - Jab2 under 100%

Works only with crouch cancel:
Bowser Jr. - Jab1 under 30%
Fox - Jab2 under 85%
Robin - Jab1 under 85%
Duck Hunt - Jab1 under 45%

 

[CURRY]

Yeah, I didn't know much about Brawl Falcon, since I never played him much, nor did I play much against him. Sorry about that.

I just learned the fastfall timings for Marth's SH bair and fair so that they autocancel! He feels so much smoother compared to playing him while just flat out not fastfalling his aerials.
SH Bair -> FF -> dtilt feels really fast and nice, although it almost definitely won't work out in real gameplay because the placement of bair and dtilt hitboxes being so drastically different from each other. Also, because Marth isn't a walling character *sigh*
Momentum just COMPLETELY stops when you miss a RAR and do the fastfall timing for bair when you actually executed a fair, though. I'm not exactly 100% consistent with RARs, despite it being such a non-technical input. Nor am I consistent with B-reversals...

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

What is a RAR? Is that when you turn around before you do a SH so you can do a bair?

 

[Zano]

yes, but it's not limited to just bair

 

[Random4811]

Hey fellow Marths! I've found another ladder system that I like better than Nintendo Dojo, and it has 3DS ladders too! I hope to see you guys on there!

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Hey fellow Marths! I've found another ladder system that I like better than Nintendo Dojo, and it has 3DS ladders too! I hope to see you guys on there!

I played on there for a while, but I stopped a little after the Wii U version came out since it became really hard to find people to play against in 3DS.

 

[Random4811]

I played on there for a while, but I stopped a little after the Wii U version came out since it became really hard to find people to play against in 3DS.

Im having no trouble. Just joined yesterday, already played about 16 games

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Really? Maybe I might go back to playing on there. Though I think against really good players like the people on there I will use Falcon against them since my spacing with Marth on 3DS is dropping and increasing on Wii U.

 

[Random4811]

Really? Maybe I might go back to playing on there. Though I think against really good players like the people on there I will use Falcon against them since my spacing with Marth on 3DS is dropping and increasing on Wii U.

Play on the Wii U ladders too, then.
But yeah, come on back!
Ive found my spacing is relatively the same. Im really missing the C-stick though. Gotta convince my fam to let me abduct the Wii U into my room.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Play on the Wii U ladders too, then.
But yeah, come on back!
Ive found my spacing is relatively the same. Im really missing the C-stick though. Gotta convince my fam to let me abduct the Wii U into my room.

Well the reason I am still playing 3DS is because I don't have a Wii U. I have only played the Wii U version about 7 times now,but I am still getting better and better very quickly in Wii U despite not having much time to play it. I only get to play on Wii U when I go over to one of my friend's house who was lucky enough to get his hands on a Wii U controller adapter.

 

[kj22]

Uair.
The back part of uair has 90% of the blade animation phasing through the opponent.
It would be REALLY nice if his uair actually covered him as well as it looks like it does, but ehh, there's still a protective hitbox really close to his body behind him as he lands.

But I see a LOT of streamers LANDING with a dair with Marth in Smash 4. Is this just because they're playing online? Or do you guys use that option often offline as well?

Honestly its not "safe on shield", but what it does do is force a nearby opponent to shield otherwise they'll get hit/trade. Once you've conditioned them to shield because they expectthe dair, you fast fall and grab them!(: its a mixup option/conditioning tool, and it works because marth has a sword.

 

[CURRY]

Isn't it better to just like, double jump away, or at least back up a bit and nair in front of them?

Honestly its not "safe on shield", but what it does do is force a nearby opponent to shield otherwise they'll get hit/trade. Once you've conditioned them to shield because they expectthe dair, you fast fall and grab them!(: its a mixup option/conditioning tool, and it works because marth has a sword.

Isn't it better to just like, double jump away, or at least back up a bit and nair in front of them? Attacking opponents below himself isn't exactly one of Marth's strengths, because yknow, dair.
I'm a bit irked with the fact that Marth's double jump is TOO good in this game, lol... it takes a lot more time to land if you use it as a defensive option like I described, compared to if you did it in Brawl.

 

[kj22]

Isn't it better to just like, double jump away, or at least back up a bit and nair in front of them?


Isn't it better to just like, double jump away, or at least back up a bit and nair in front of them? Attacking opponents below himself isn't exactly one of Marth's strengths, because yknow, dair.
I'm a bit irked with the fact that Marth's double jump is TOO good in this game, lol... it takes a lot more time to land if you use it as a defensive option like I described, compared to if you did it in Brawl.

well if you don't have your double jump then you cant do that, or if you don't wanna risk losing your double jump. And dair hits people behind much better than nair. I'm not talking about when you landing in front of them, talking about landing behind. Jumping in front of someone and dairing is suicide lmfao

marth can recover from reallllllllllllllllllllly (at least on sv, from bubble) with his jump and up b ;D not sure if its the same from brawl cuz he had pretty great vert recovery in that game too...

 

[Brinzy]

So I assume most of you have done the challenge to clear Classic 9.0 in 12 minutes or less.

I keep failing attempts at this, with my best attempt being on the 2nd core in the... Master Fortress I think?

If you've done this, did you use customs? If so, what customs? I've tried heavy offense w/ lifesteal, a mix of offense and defense, and a balanced setup. So far, no dice. In fact, when I used heavy offense, my defense was so low that Metaknight's side B took a stock off me at 0% on Smashville thanks to... however the knockbacks work. I really wish I could save replays in Classic because it was the most unbelievable garbage ever.

It doesn't help I am terrible with this character, but that will come with time just from playing Classic. I don't have any other plans to play him so I guess it doesn't matter if I get much better with him.

Anyway... share what you can!

 

[EternalFlame]

So I assume most of you have done the challenge to clear Classic 9.0 in 12 minutes or less.

I keep failing attempts at this, with my best attempt being on the 2nd core in the... Master Fortress I think?

If you've done this, did you use customs? If so, what customs? I've tried heavy offense w/ lifesteal, a mix of offense and defense, and a balanced setup. So far, no dice. In fact, when I used heavy offense, my defense was so low that Metaknight's side B took a stock off me at 0% on Smashville thanks to... however the knockbacks work. I really wish I could save replays in Classic because it was the most unbelievable garbage ever.

It doesn't help I am terrible with this character, but that will come with time just from playing Classic. I don't have any other plans to play him so I guess it doesn't matter if I get much better with him.

Anyway... share what you can!

I probably won't be of any help then, since I beat the whole thing with base Marth xD

Really, fundamentals will carry you through, no matter what character you're using. Trick is getting past the first forms while trying to keep your stocks as long as possible.

Master Giant: Better know how to read the attacks he goes for and how to dodge them
Master Beast: Counter and DTilt will be your best friend
Master Swords: Counters are great, but be ready to dodge that multislash and smash slash
Master Shadow: fundamentals ftw

The fortress itself becomes easy when you deal with the laser cannon enemies first then attack the core. Every other enemy you can just ignore really since they'll likely be swatted away as you attack the core with the FAir/NAir.

 

[Brinzy]

I wish it was 12 mins with any character so I could bust out dat op Zelda

I don't know, I actually had more problems with the fights leading up to it than the Master fight itself. I just derped a few times, but nothing I can't fix.

So, I am supposed to just use his dtilt to rack damage on the ground?

 

[Langston777]

So... is there a match making method on smashboards or something?

Would be nice to be able to reach out to other boards where I have match up difficulties and nobody from my place frequents who plays those characters. Also would consider mirroring a confident Marth from here that could give me advice but i'm not to fond of mirrors to be quite honest.

also is there any merit to spectating APEX? I'm like a 30 minute drive away, but I don't actually know anyone in the community IRL/never been to a local. definitely not confident enough to enter.

 

[EternalFlame]

I wish it was 12 mins with any character so I could bust out dat op Zelda

I don't know, I actually had more problems with the fights leading up to it than the Master fight itself. I just derped a few times, but nothing I can't fix.

So, I am supposed to just use his dtilt to rack damage on the ground?

It was odd that they picked Marth specifically xD so I can't blame ya.

The fights leading up to Master hand will be a problem, especially since Marth isn't that good in multi man smashes. You go through each stage, hoping the preceeding rounds don't take any of your stock before you reach master core. It helps if you know what you're doing with the character, but on the same point, sometimes the run can be ruined by stage or CPU shinanigans xD

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah I really, really wish I was recording Metaknight one hitting me with his side B. Like I heard the move connect but it must've done less than 1% because it still displayed 0%... from the middle of Smashville straight to the left and dead.

Once I'm done cooking I'll give it another shot. It's a good thing it can be done without customs though, in under 12 minutes.

 

[EternalFlame]

Yeah I really, really wish I was recording Metaknight one hitting me with his side B. Like I heard the move connect but it must've done less than 1% because it still displayed 0%... from the middle of Smashville straight to the left and dead.

Once I'm done cooking I'll give it another shot. It's a good thing it can be done without customs though, in under 12 minutes.

Ah, he might have hit you with the initial pickup but didn't connect the rest of the moves. The intial pickup may do no damage, but the momentum attached to it to pull you into the move can be enough to kill you. That's happened to me in the past with Link 4% stage spiking me xD It is also the principle of the Mii Brawler's Up B 0% kill move I believe.

Oh definitely xD the customs may throw you for a loop, so its worth a shot if you know enough fundamentals.

 

[Brinzy]

Ah, he might have hit you with the initial pickup but didn't connect the rest of the moves. The intial pickup may do no damage, but the momentum attached to it to pull you into the move can be enough to kill you. That's happened to me in the past with Link 4% stage spiking me xD It is also the principle of the Mii Brawler's Up B 0% kill move I believe.

Oh definitely xD the customs may throw you for a loop, so its worth a shot if you know enough fundamentals.

... I turned my customs off and I cleared it.

WTF

Well you helped!

EDIT: And I feel like Marth plays a lot like Zelda.

Well, obviously he's 10x better, but same concept. I like this character.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

... I turned my customs off and I cleared it.

WTF

Well you helped!

EDIT: And I feel like Marth plays a lot like Zelda.

Well, obviously he's 10x better, but same concept. I like this character.

Uh, could you explain how he plays like Zelda? I don't ever use Zelda,but she seems like a far cry from Marth.

 

[EternalFlame]

... I turned my customs off and I cleared it.

WTF

Well you helped!

EDIT: And I feel like Marth plays a lot like Zelda.

Well, obviously he's 10x better, but same concept. I like this character.

Hahaha xD least you got that cleared no problem. Glad to be of service ^^

I won't say he's 10x better than Zelda, but probably the way you play translates a little better with Marth for now. Glad you've taken a liking to him xD perhaps you may explore the character again in the future.

Uh, could you explain how he plays like Zelda? I don't ever use Zelda,but she seems like a far cry from Marth.

It all rides on how the character is played, and Raphael may be playing Marth like as if it were Zelda (or some way, shape or form of doing such). Key difference is that she has projectiles and a killing Up B at regular high percents. As long as Raphael likes the character, I'd say things went well anywho xD

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

It all rides on how the character is played, and Raphael may be playing Marth like as if it were Zelda (or some way, shape or form of doing such). Key difference is that she has projectiles and a killing Up B at regular high percents. As long as Raphael likes the character, I'd say things went well anywho xD

True, the more Marth mains the better! Speaking of that I have been running into Marth players online a lot more often lately, and they are teaching me more on how to use him. Earlier I played against someone who would do fair>up-b. It did not really help them that much,but I can see that being useful to set up an edgeguard since up-b has fairly good knockback.

 

[EternalFlame]

True, the more Marth mains the better! Speaking of that I have been running into Marth players online a lot more often lately, and they are teaching me more on how to use him. Earlier I played against someone who would do fair>up-b. It did not really help them that much,but I can see that being useful to set up an edgeguard since up-b has fairly good knockback.

Is true, but that wiff will cause more pain than reward if it hit, especially onstage xD offstage, I can sorta understand to try and stage spike though. But yeah, dittos can do that for ya, though I haven't played FG in a while, mostly since its a random I'm fighting with random latency and I don't get to communicate with them unlike with scheduled matches. I enjoy those far more xD

 

[Brinzy]

Uh, could you explain how he plays like Zelda? I don't ever use Zelda,but she seems like a far cry from Marth.

Big trapping and punishing game.

That's about it.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Is true, but that wiff will cause more pain than reward if it hit, especially onstage xD offstage, I can sorta understand to try and stage spike though. But yeah, dittos can do that for ya, though I haven't played FG in a while, mostly since its a random I'm fighting with random latency and I don't get to communicate with them unlike with scheduled matches. I enjoy those far more xD

Well it was not a ditto, and I am glad it was not since I hate Marth dittos.

 

[kj22]

Well it was not a ditto, and I am glad it was not since I hate Marth dittos.

I'm the king of marth dittoes ;3

 

[kj22]

@ Shaya WHEN ARE YOU VISITING HOUSTON I WANNA PLAY YOU AND MARF DITTO AND BRAWL MARF DITTO

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I'm the king of marth dittoes ;3

Here is why I hate Marth dittos:

Me:"Oh hey I got a pretty good lead! I am gonna gonna try to set up an edgeguard by hitting them with a fair!"
*Gets hit by the luckiest tipper f-smash/shield breaker ever*
"GAME"
Me: "FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU"