Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Random4811]

I should have specified that I was talking about the entire cast in general, with the exception on Diddy and Sheik. The fact that those characters have long combos that can convert into a KO gives them a huge advantage over the rest of the cast.

How early cn tipper F-Smash KO? Ledge and Center stage (FD) please.

With rage F-smash can kill as low as 22% (a kill that I've gotten on either FD or Omega Ferox, I think) on ledge. Its disgusting.

I think it could still be balanced if every character had combos that could end with a kill,but they would have to only work at very specific percents and require near perfect execution.

You mean frame perfect, percent perfect death combos that create a non skill tech gap between players who can and cant perform them?
sounds wonderful.

It wouldnt be a bad idea for every character to have generally more combo ability, because most of the cast can only get a true combo on a small amount of hits. However, doing such a thing would require very very careful tweaking. Too much in one direction and some characters become broken. Too much in another direction and some characters become garbage.

 

[Vipermoon]

Melee range over melee lag for me. I say this because I'm pretty sure Brawl frame data is pretty much the same as Melee data. Am I correct?

If this is true, Marth's enormous Melee range would be more helpful than a few frames and a little more autocancel in some moves which is the difference between Brawl Marth lag and Smash 4 Marth lag. And Marth falls faster in Smash 4, he'd probably be able to do double fairs (or a fair and a half) if he had Brawl gravity (not saying I ever want to go back to Brawl gravity).

 

[Shaya]

Marth has generally more range than in Brawl. So Melee lag for sure.

That would mean, with nothing else changed.
Short hop Double fair, fair into uair. Up tilt with like 10 frames less lag, TEN. Combos for EVER and an amazing option everywhere all the time. Down air would hit short characters from a full hop. Auto cancels on fair, nair, uair and dair that are like 50-100% faster than his current ones.

Up tilt and auto cancels is my first big things I would kill for Marth to have in this game. Marth having melee range would really be not that much of a difference in anything other than forward smash. Seriously, people are so fixated on range when if you look at Melee, Falco's forward tilt completely out ranged Marth and it's not like Falco's ftilt has gotten shorter, Marth's swiping that way better than he used to. Ganondorf outranged him in Melee and he sure doesn't now. People who outrange Marth now are either doing so with stupendous leg stretches or they're newer characters.

Hearing newer players constantly refer to M/L's range is getting really tiresome at this stage.

 

[Quickhero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6jvEuTl3II

I'll post this here for now, and when I make the actual decent guide on some good set-ups and combos for Marth I'll upload them and showcase videos of me using it online with success. For now I am just uploading this for confirmation purposes. :3 Btw yes d-throw to up air can become a true combo that does nice damage and is hard to punish, just because I forgot to mention that over there. It only becomes safer with rage. Yeah though, nice and easy 20% off on the down throw to up-b combo with jab inputs meaning you can easily follow up with an u-smash, f-smash, or even another combo like that to make just landing tilts potential ko moves. Warning though, it doesn't work on Jigglypuff and possibly Rosalina as well as heavy weights, but my other combo should make that not a big deal, though I didn't discover the second one.

Again, sorry it's not the best, but I didn't want to exhaust my efforts into a legit guide when I can't even narrate, so yeah. :\ Tomorrow or day after I should get a guide uploaded though.

 

[Random4811]

Absolutely Melee lag. Marth would be top of the top tiers. It would be /so/ sexy.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth has generally more range than in Brawl. So Melee lag for sure.

That would mean, with nothing else changed.
Short hop Double fair, fair into uair. Up tilt with like 10 frames less lag, TEN. Combos for EVER and an amazing option everywhere all the time. Down air would hit short characters from a full hop. Auto cancels on fair, nair, uair and dair that are like 50-100% faster than his current ones.

Up tilt and auto cancels is my first big things I would kill for Marth to have in this game. Marth having melee range would really be not that much of a difference in anything other than forward smash. Seriously, people are so fixated on range when if you look at Melee, Falco's forward tilt completely out ranged Marth and it's not like Falco's ftilt has gotten shorter, Marth's swiping that way better than he used to. Ganondorf outranged him in Melee and he sure doesn't now. People who outrange Marth now are either doing so with stupendous leg stretches or they're newer characters.

Hearing newer players constantly refer to M/L's range is getting really tiresome at this stage.

I agree that his range is generally better and I also hate the range references...like the term "dagger." It's undeserved. Now I know Melee frame data the least but I thought it was pretty much the same as Brawl. If it's noticeably better then I'd change my vote from range to lag.

 

[kj22]

Marth's lag is horrendous, esp compared to the likes of diddy/sheik mario. The can sh aerial, LAND, and sh aerial again before marth lands from his first aerial.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth's lag is horrendous, esp compared to the likes of diddy/sheik mario. The can sh aerial, LAND, and sh aerial again before marth lands from his first aerial.

Yeah not even strength and disjoint hitboxes make up for that craziness

 

[CURRY]

Heh.
So Ness is kind of the opposite of Marth.
(relatively) fast and combo-able aerials, zero disjoint, okay running speed.
I personally only found out about Marth's range being the same compared to Brawl's a few days ago. Until then, I've always thought it was super weird how I could still space my tippers using Brawl instincts (with all except fsmash for some reason. I still can't tipper Shield Breaker), although the range seemed tiny.
But yeah, the fact that everyone else got range is a bit frustrating, especially because we need take advantage of our (nerfed) speed to win against certain matchups.
Then again, I don't exactly play the smartest Marth. I could easily see good Marths winning in certain areas that I don't excel at.
I'm SO irked at the speed of fair, though, since it feels like it takes SO long to reach to full length. Isn't it a difference of only two frames compared to Brawl, though? I never knew that two frames could make so much of a difference.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Okay so let's say some of Marth's attacks have less knockback to supposedly help combos. How will Marth capitalize by the time he is finished lagging? By that the time the opponent (who was knocked-back a shorter distance) will be able to retaliate (sooner, if knockback was reduced) and he will be closer to Marth at that...which is less safe. And lower knockback will increase the percentage required to get a character into tumble animation. This is why knockback is the not the problem/solution for most characters including Marth. I got over the unusual knockback in this game, other than super high initial knockback jab finishers/low damage aerials, it's pretty fair IMO. But Marth doesn't have high knockback low damage aerials or jabs.

What I'd love less knockback with is dancing blade because it is useless at medium to high percents.

Well previously I said I hoped for something much closer or identical to brawl Marth, which would of course include the amount of landing lag he had in that game or in Melee. Honestly for me the ideal Marth would be brawl Marth with a few melee Marth characteristics. Melee land lag and melee DB with easier timing would be GODLIKE,but maybe not so much on easier timing since we would see downward DB spikes all over the place. Giving him either a up-throw like in melee where it is good for combos or make knockback on up-throw even move so that it isn't only useful to kill with at high rage, maybe make it able to kill with rage at about 80%. On a side note: I don't use Lucina at all,but I think she would be MUCH better if they gave her Roy's d-smash and have her keep the BB she has now, BUT let her be able to turn around mid DB like Roy. Also, giving her a nerfed recovery, but give it a lot of kill power if it is sweet spotted like Roy.

Rant unrelated to Marth: As much as I respect and thank Sakurai for even creating smash in the first place, I don't think he is too fit to be in charge of balancing. He even said that when he balanced this game, he was thinking more about players who don't play competitively, but WHAT THE HELL DO THEY CARE ABOUT HOW BALANCED IT IS. I don't understand how he could think that competitive players have any sort of effect on other smash players. Sakurai just can't accept the fact that some people like to play his game differently than he intended. It is not like we are cheating and it is only a few bad apples who go out of their way to insult casual players. If they have another balance patch and/or another game in the future, Sakurai or whoever the hell is in charge of balancing needs to leave balancing to professional competitive players who know what they are talking about and ACTUALLY CARE about having a balanced game.

 

[Shaya]

Please don't Project-M ideas Lucina.
----

Think of it like this.
Fair was 4 frames start up in Brawl and it's 6 frames now. '50% slower start up' is a pretty big thing.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Please don't Project-M ideas Lucina.
----
w
Think of it like this.
Fair was 4 frames start up in Brawl and it's 6 frames now. '50% slower start up' is a pretty big thing.

I guess you are right considering it is not very likely they would almost completely change a character's moves,but for all we know we could get a patch where something like that happens. Let's be honest though, if Lucina was like that, she would be a lot cooler and actually have more of a reason to use her over Marth. I might not be the right person to say anything about Lucina,but I think the key to making her good is to make her different from Marth in more than just a few very small differences.

 

[Vipermoon]

EDITED FOR ACCURACY

What kills sooner in brawl:
Tipper Fair
Tipper Nair
Tipper Bair
Sour shield breaker
Dancing blade (all 3, barely)
First hit of dsmash
Sour uptilt (tipper uptilt in brawl is as strong as tipper uptilt in smash 4, non tipper uptilt is actually stronger than tipper in brawl, and that 10 damage hit on the backend (brawl) rivals upsmash!
Up B

What kills earlier in Smash 4:
Tipper Ftilt
Tipper Shield breaker
Counter
Tipper Fsmash for sure now
Tipper Upsmash, sour Upsmash, everything Upsmash is stronger than everything Brawl Upsmash
Second hit of Dsmash
Up throw, every throw actually

What kills about the same:
Dash attack
Up air
Sour Fsmash
Dair (pretty much), two different moves though
"Jab"
Dtilt
Tipper Uptilt

Now we'll look at range.

Less range than Brawl:
Fsmash (barely)
Grab, way less (relatively speaking)
Up B, also way less

More range than Brawl:
Nair
Dair (in front of Marth)
Ftilt
Upsmash, ONLY foot hitbox
Uptilt (horizontal)
Dancing blade
Jab
Dash attack
Double jump
Aerial shield breaker
Counter

About the same:
Bair
Uair
Uptilt (vertical)
Upsmash (vertical)
1st Jump
Dsmash
Dtilt
Fsmash (vertical)
Dair (behind Marth)
Shield breaker (ground, only because of Brawl forward step)
Up B (vertical, from ground and aerial)

His range has ups then downs but disjoint is better which is great. He runs faster, falls faster, but is less aerially mobile. He isn't weaker (does do less damage than before like most smash 4 characters).
But most of his moves come out later and/or have less autocancel, more landing lag, more ending lag. Brawl Marth can do more aerials in a hop or short hop because he floats more, not only the speed changes. Also Brawl Marth has so little ending lag after fair, nair, and uair, I can barely tell if it autocancels.

In Smash 4, his up B can't punish OoS or kill consistently with how weak it is and short horizontal range, especially since shields get pushed back easier and with more shield stun. But it works from time to time. But, as we know, Up B has less landing lag!!

I'm sure many of you knew all this, as did I, but I wanted to test it. So here I compiled the non mathematical differences using Hyrule Temple and Link. In case there are inconsistencies, I tried to keep it less specific than it could've been.

Last notes: I had Brawl and Smash 4 on at the same time, switching between them. But then I played Brawl for a while and when I went back to Smash 4 I noticed immedietely the game speed. It felt like Melee for a second. Marth fell fast, ran fast, and just felt good if that makes sense. It's like a false sense of "faster character than Brawl version."

Overall Marth has less tools and is less OP (not that he ever was) but I can't see why these changes make him "bad"

The end, thanks for reading.

 

[CURRY]

I confirmed what kills sooner in brawl, no di:

Tipper fair
Tipper nair
Sour shield breaker
Dancing blade (all 3, barely so maybe not)
First hit of dsmash
Sour uptilt (tipper uptilt in brawl is as strong as tipper uptilt in smash 4, non tipper uptilt is actually stronger than tipper in brawl, and that 10 damage hit on the backend (brawl) rivals upsmash!
Up B

What kills earlier in smash 4:

Tipper ftilt
Tipper shield breaker
Counter
Maybe tipper fsmash, didn't confirm, but don't forget about rage, so it may seem stronger
Maybe sour upsmash
Second hit of dsmash
Tipper upsmash, sooo strong
Up throw, every throw actually
Dash attack

What kills about the same:
Up air
Back air
Sour Fsmash
Dair
"Jab"
Dtilt
Tipper uptilt

So he isn't weaker. Now we'll look at range:

Less than Brawl:
Fsmash
Maybe grab
Up B, wayyyyyyy less

More than Brawl:

Fair
nair
bair
uair
dair (in front of marth)
ftilt
uptilt
upsmash, including foot hitbox
dancing blade
jab
shield breaker
Dash attack
Air upB may go higher
Double jump

About the same:
Jump
Probably counter
Down smash
Down tilt
Vertical Fsmash

His range is generally better. He runs faster, falls faster, but is less aerially mobile. He isn't weaker.
But most of his moves come out later and/or have less autocancel, more landing lag, more ending lag. Brawl Marth can do more aerials in a hop or short hop because he floats more, not only the speed changes. Also Brawl Marth has so little ending lag after fair, nair, and uair, I can barely tell if it autocancels.

In Smash 4, his up B can't punish OoS or kill consistently with how weak it is and short horizontal range, especially since shields get pushed back easier and with more shield stun. But it works from time to time. But, as we know, Up B has less landing lag!!

I'm sure many of you knew all this, as did I, but I wanted to test it. So here I compiled the non mathematical differences using Battlefield platforms and Link. Incase there are inconsistencies, I tried to keep it less specific than it could've been.

Last notes: I had Brawl and Smash 4 on at the same time, switching between them. But then I played Brawl for a while and when I went back to Smash 4 I noticed immedietely the game speed. It felt like Melee for a second. Marth fell fast, ran fast, and just felt good if that makes sense. It's like a false sense of "faster character than Brawl version."

The end, thanks for reading.

Huh.
More range than Brawl? I find that hard to believe, but with finding out that my perception of his range was all wrong, I'll take it.
The Shield Breaker feels REALLY weird, and doesn't feel like it's longer though, at least for me. Are you sure it's the range, and not the disjoint or something?

 

[Ekans647]

After playing PM, Marth feels recalling clunky and awkward in SSB4. I still love his gameplay, I always will, but in Melee/PM, he felt so much smoother. his attaches flowed like water. Not only was it better competitively, it fit Marth's character better.

I guess you are right considering it is not very likely they would almost completely change a character's moves,but for all we know we could get a patch where something like that happens. Let's be honest though, if Lucina was like that, she would be a lot cooler and actually have more of a reason to use her over Marth. I might not be the right person to say anything about Lucina,but I think the key to making her good is to make her different from Marth in more than just a few very small differences.

I would like to see Lucina Luifi-fied so that her move set matches her battle animations for Awakening. It would be cool to SE her using more stabbing attacks and using the Falchion in a more estoc like fashion. Her Dancing Blade could consist of different stabs. It would suit her better.

 

[Locuan]

Huh.
More range than Brawl? I find that hard to believe, but with finding out that my perception of his range was all wrong, I'll take it.
The Shield Breaker feels REALLY weird, and doesn't feel like it's longer though, at least for me. Are you sure it's the range, and not the disjoint or something?

A lot of Marth's moves have more reach than in Brawl. Shaya did some research early on regarding Marth in the thread called Marth Data. There he compared Marth's reach in Smash 4 with that of Brawl. That thread is linked in the Competitive Resource Thread that is pinned to our character board. Sometimes reading the pinned threads help He also specifies what reach is in the Marth Q&A Thread:

Reach = disjoint. People tend to think of range as horizontal or vertical distances, but that's not what I'm trying to say when I can vouch for Marth's moves having more 'reach', the hitboxes in relation to his sword are going further than they do in Brawl, but for all we know Marth could be stepping significantly less forward when he attacks in comparison to other games. But seeing as Marth's priority is mainly based around his disjoints, the range stuff (if there are differences) just require adjustments by the player.

 

[Vipermoon]

Huh.
More range than Brawl? I find that hard to believe, but with finding out that my perception of his range was all wrong, I'll take it.
The Shield Breaker feels REALLY weird, and doesn't feel like it's longer though, at least for me. Are you sure it's the range, and not the disjoint or something?

I only looked at range. I had no way of measuring disjoint. Shield breaker has weird animations at the tip of the sword, people I play against are always misjuding how far it reaches (especially in the air lol). With that said, SB isn't too much more than Brawl. Some of the differences are pretty trivial.

When I get time I'll revisit Fsmash and upsmash killing power, and grab range just to be sure about things. I'll look more into counter but it's hard to tell with one person and when Marth has to be countering extended hurtboxes.

After playing PM, Marth feels recalling clunky and awkward in SSB4. I still love his gameplay, I always will, but in Melee/PM, he felt so much smoother. his attaches flowed like water. Not only was it better competitively, it fit Marth's character better.

I would like to see Lucina Luifi-fied so that her move set matches her battle animations for Awakening. It would be cool to SE her using more stabbing attacks and using the Falchion in a more estoc like fashion. Her Dancing Blade could consist of different stabs. It would suit her better.

Marth is very fluid in PM! I enjoyed him.

I totally agree with your Lucina dreams as well. At least give her her unique standing positon.

 

[Shaya]

I would say Brawl up air and bair killed earlier than smash 4. Even with mid rage their kill power is just 'familiar'-ish at best.

 

[Vipermoon]

I would say Brawl up air and bair killed earlier than smash 4. Even with mid rage their kill power is just 'familiar'-ish at best.

I'll try again, but I found them to be about the same. They may do less damage but almost all moves in Smash 4 does less damage but with similar knockback (especially aerials).

Up air in Brawl is sooooo easy to tip, it's actually pretty difficult to not tip that lol. Now you actually get the tip in up air to tip, I'm fine with that. I appreciate tippers that are more difficult.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

After getting used to playing with a GC controller on the Wii U version from playing it with one of my friends, I realize just how limited I am in how well I can play in the 3DS version. There are literally things I can do in the Wii U version that feels impossible to pull off on 3DS.

 

[Ekans647]

After getting used to playing with a GC controller on the Wii U version from playing it with one of my friends, I realize just how limited I am in how well I can play in the 3DS version. There are literally things I can do in the Wii U version that feels impossible to pull off on 3DS.

Could you provide some examples? I know that you can't space aerials on the 3DS, I find that the 3DS is actually quite comfortable.

 

[Random4811]

Could you provide some examples? I know that you can't space aerials on the 3DS, I find that the 3DS is actually quite comfortable.

Inconsistency in general, due to the control pad. The clunky shoulder buttons are often unresponsive, so L to jump for OoS up B's on several characters are unreliable. Retreating aerials are more lost than not, going between tilts and Smashes is less consistent by nature due to having to do tilts the old fashioned way rather than attack-sticking, etc.

The 3DS is comftorable and familiar to me, and I am very good at playing with it. However, it is limited. It will be a little less limited when the News drop in America, but not much, due to the control pad still being garbage. However, we'll have the smash nipple to work with.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Could you provide some examples? I know that you can't space aerials on the 3DS, I find that the 3DS is actually quite comfortable.

Like you said, spacing aerials is difficult and even though my hands are a pretty average size, they can get a little cramped when I am playing. The worst part for me is how the circle pad can be so sensitive sometimes when I just want to move slightly to get a tipper f-smash after breaking someones shield, and the lack of a C-stick for smash attacks bothers me since sometimes I end up doing a tilt when I want to do a smash attack.

 

[Random4811]

Like you said, spacing aerials is difficult and even though my hands are a pretty average size, they can get a little cramped when I am playing. The worst part for me is how the circle pad can be so sensitive sometimes when I just want to move slightly to get a tipper f-smash after breaking someones shield, and the lack of a C-stick for smash attacks bothers me since sometimes I end up doing a tilt when I want to do a smash attack.

When playing Marth/Falcon, you should really use tilt-stick. It allows for /so/ much better aerial control.

 

[Ekans647]

Like you said, spacing aerials is difficult and even though my hands are a pretty average size, they can get a little cramped when I am playing. The worst part for me is how the circle pad can be so sensitive sometimes when I just want to move slightly to get a tipper f-smash after breaking someones shield, and the lack of a C-stick for smash attacks bothers me since sometimes I end up doing a tilt when I want to do a smash attack.

I agree with the cramping, but hopefully the C-Stick will alleviate most of these problems.

 

[Vipermoon]

I confirmed what kills sooner in brawl, no di:

Tipper fair
Tipper nair
Sour shield breaker
Dancing blade (all 3, barely so maybe not)
First hit of dsmash
Sour uptilt (tipper uptilt in brawl is as strong as tipper uptilt in smash 4, non tipper uptilt is actually stronger than tipper in brawl, and that 10 damage hit on the backend (brawl) rivals upsmash!
Up B

What kills earlier in smash 4:

Tipper ftilt
Tipper shield breaker
Counter
Maybe tipper fsmash, didn't confirm, but don't forget about rage, so it may seem stronger
Maybe sour upsmash
Second hit of dsmash
Tipper upsmash, sooo strong
Up throw, every throw actually
Dash attack

What kills about the same:
Up air
Back air
Sour Fsmash
Dair
"Jab"
Dtilt
Tipper uptilt

So he isn't weaker. Now we'll look at range:

Less than Brawl:
Fsmash
Maybe grab
Up B, wayyyyyyy less

More than Brawl:

Fair
nair
bair
uair
dair (in front of marth)
ftilt
uptilt
upsmash, including foot hitbox
dancing blade
jab
shield breaker
Dash attack
Air upB may go higher
Double jump

About the same:
Jump
Probably counter
Down smash
Down tilt
Vertical Fsmash

His range is generally better. He runs faster, falls faster, but is less aerially mobile. He isn't weaker.
But most of his moves come out later and/or have less autocancel, more landing lag, more ending lag. Brawl Marth can do more aerials in a hop or short hop because he floats more, not only the speed changes. Also Brawl Marth has so little ending lag after fair, nair, and uair, I can barely tell if it autocancels.

In Smash 4, his up B can't punish OoS or kill consistently with how weak it is and short horizontal range, especially since shields get pushed back easier and with more shield stun. But it works from time to time. But, as we know, Up B has less landing lag!!

I'm sure many of you knew all this, as did I, but I wanted to test it. So here I compiled the non mathematical differences using Battlefield platforms and Link. Incase there are inconsistencies, I tried to keep it less specific than it could've been.

Last notes: I had Brawl and Smash 4 on at the same time, switching between them. But then I played Brawl for a while and when I went back to Smash 4 I noticed immedietely the game speed. It felt like Melee for a second. Marth fell fast, ran fast, and just felt good if that makes sense. It's like a false sense of "faster character than Brawl version."

The end, thanks for reading.

Okay, correction and more information time. Hyrule Temple is way better for measuring kill power and marking range game to game.

What kills sooner in brawl:
Tipper Fair
Tipper Nair
Tipper Bair
Sour shield breaker
Dancing blade (all 3, barely)
First hit of dsmash
Sour uptilt (tipper uptilt in brawl is as strong as tipper uptilt in smash 4, non tipper uptilt is actually stronger than tipper in brawl, and that 10 damage hit on the backend (brawl) rivals upsmash!
Up B

What kills earlier in Smash 4:
Tipper Ftilt
Tipper Shield breaker
Counter
Tipper Fsmash for sure now
Tipper Upsmash, sour Upsmash, everything Upsmash is stronger than everything Brawl Upsmash
Second hit of Dsmash
Up throw, every throw actually

What kills about the same:
Dash attack
Up air
Sour Fsmash
Dair (pretty much), two different moves though
"Jab"
Dtilt
Tipper Uptilt

Now we'll look at range.

Less range than Brawl:
Fsmash (barely)
Grab, way less (relatively speaking)
Up B, also way less

More range than Brawl:
Nair
Dair (in front of Marth)
Ftilt
Upsmash, ONLY foot hitbox
Uptilt (horizontal)
Dancing blade
Jab
Dash attack
Double jump
Aerial shield breaker
Counter

About the same:
Bair
Uair
Uptilt (vertical)
Upsmash (vertical)
1st Jump
Dsmash
Dtilt
Fsmash (vertical)
Dair (behind Marth)
Shield breaker (ground, only because of Brawl forward step)
Up B (vertical, from ground and aerial)

So yes, from where I measured each, tipper Fsmash in Smash 4 kills 7% earlier (55, 62) (non tipper 1% earlier, doesn't count), and Bair in Brawl kills 9 or 10% early than smash 4 (like 136 or 7 vs 146%).

Tipper Upair kills at the exact same percent, non tipper seems stronger but I didn't test it.

And about shield breaker, in Brawl using shield breaker sends you forward a full step, so with that, it has about the same range as Smash 4's which leaves you in your spot.

The data from other threads about Marth having all around better disjoint is 100% obvious. Marth takes a huge step forward for Fsmash in Brawl, and a small step for Smash 4, for example. But the Fsmashes are almost the same, it may look like a lot less because people are comparing it to the buffed range ftilt, uptilt (horiz.), and jab. I think people's subconscious judgements on Fsmash is what created the dagger jokes and what-not.

Unfortunately I was wrong about bair, uair, utilt, and usmash range. The last two are the only ones that have better range but ONLY horizontal. Also, it's not mentioned above but (today) at first I thought I saw Fair had better range but I kept testing and they seem about the same now.

I'm editing my quoted post just to keep everything accurate for the thread.

 

[Shaya]

The upwards moves that go vertically are still tied to the sword as if it were a horizontal object.
When the sword is at 0 degrees, then it's completely horizontal, if it's at 90 degrees, horizontal displacement is going completely vertical.

 

[Vipermoon]

The upwards moves that go vertically are still tied to the sword as if it were a horizontal object.
When the sword is at 0 degrees, then it's completely horizontal, if it's at 90 degrees, horizontal displacement is going completely vertical.

When in Uptilt's case, when the sword is horizontal it reaches more than in Brawl. The same range (as brawl) when it's vertical. That is what I found, and it isn't close either. It's completely possible. The move is probably a little different. In Smash 4 I can scoop almost any character that is laying on the ground with up tilt but it's harder to do that in Brawl, I think it starts lower and covers what's in front of Marth more but I can't be sure about anything other than I measured more horizontal range than Brawl.

 

[Shaya]

that can be the slightly changed animation.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah and sometimes Marth sword would go through something and it doesn't hit. Could be that they fixed up tilt a little bit (especially for the lowest hitbox)

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Yeah and sometimes Marth sword would go through something and it doesn't hit. Could be that they fixed up tilt a little bit (especially for the lowest hitbox)

Yeah that seems to most commonly occur with jab. Marth may have large hitboxs,but they can be weird sometimes.

 

[CURRY]

Uair.
The back part of uair has 90% of the blade animation phasing through the opponent.
It would be REALLY nice if his uair actually covered him as well as it looks like it does, but ehh, there's still a protective hitbox really close to his body behind him as he lands.

But I see a LOT of streamers LANDING with a dair with Marth in Smash 4. Is this just because they're playing online? Or do you guys use that option often offline as well?

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Uair.
The back part of uair has 90% of the blade animation phasing through the opponent.
It would be REALLY nice if his uair actually covered him as well as it looks like it does, but ehh, there's still a protective hitbox really close to his body behind him as he lands.

But I see a LOT of streamers LANDING with a dair with Marth in Smash 4. Is this just because they're playing online? Or do you guys use that option often offline as well?

Landing with any aerial on Marth is a terrible idea. They must be getting lucky.

 

[Random4811]

Uair.
The back part of uair has 90% of the blade animation phasing through the opponent.
It would be REALLY nice if his uair actually covered him as well as it looks like it does, but ehh, there's still a protective hitbox really close to his body behind him as he lands.

But I see a LOT of streamers LANDING with a dair with Marth in Smash 4. Is this just because they're playing online? Or do you guys use that option often offline as well?

Depends on the situation, sometimes its really not so bad.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah when ZeRo plays as Marth or Lucina he's always landing with fast fall fairs and sometimes nairs, even when it isn't necessary. I'm just sitting there cringing, idk why he likes to because it's sooo punishable now.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Yeah when ZeRo plays as Marth or Lucina he's always landing with fast fall fairs and sometimes nairs, even when it isn't necessary. I'm just sitting there cringing, idk why he likes to because it's sooo punishable now.

Yeah I don't get it, when pro players use a character you see them do things that you have never been able to do. Mike Hagger even said in a match where he was commentating that when Armada plays Peach, he makes her look like her moves have way less lag. They can pull off combos that every time I try doing the exact same thing, my opponent will do something like an airdodge. It is like the characters literally play better when they use them then if anyone else use them.

 

[EternalFlame]

Yeah when ZeRo plays as Marth or Lucina he's always landing with fast fall fairs and sometimes nairs, even when it isn't necessary. I'm just sitting there cringing, idk why he likes to because it's sooo punishable now.

My guess would be that he's relying on the opponent's hesitation and correct spacing. I don't watch much of ZeRo's stuff, but not everyknow knows that the FF aerials for Marth/Lucina are not that safe, nor do they know how to get past the range. I cannot speak for ZeRo's ability, but all of us know well enough that we cannot carelessly FF with our aerials - but the option can work in certain situations.

Landing with any aerial on Marth is a terrible idea. They must be getting lucky.

Funny enough, on stage DAir with the anticipation that they will shield it can be safe at points due to its pushback on block, coverage, and that Marth/Lucina lands crouching during it which reduces their hitbox for a moment. Granted, it has a lot of commitment and if perfect shielded will result in a lot of pain for you xD

There are situations of when its ok to do it and not to, as Random mentioned earlier

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I am convinced that For Glory hates me. It always connects me with an annoying player or someone who beats me so many times I start to question myself, and in the rare occasion I get connected with a player who is good and I am actually having fun playing against, my internet decides to freak out and disconnect me from them. My internet does not want me to have fun.

@ EternalFlame Every time I have tried that I get punished by an attack instead of them trying to shield it.

 

[EternalFlame]

I am convinced that For Glory hates me. It always connects me with an annoying player or someone who beats me so many times I start to question myself, and in the rare occasion I get connected with a player who is good and I am actually having fun playing against, my internet decides to freak out and disconnect me from them. My internet does not want me to have fun.

@ EternalFlame Every time I have tried that I get punished by an attack instead of them trying to shield it.

Know dem feels man. Why its usually better to seek opponents from the forums rather than FG, especially since that mode won't really show you how to get better past a point - only if you run into a good player is the exception.

Usually they use it to protect their landing once they've been hit into the air once, and not just throw every single time (mixups are what open up opportunities to great followups xD). I've been more on the recieving end of those DAirs, which is why I can sorta vouch for them in the terms of their usage. But typically its a bad idea to try to DAir them on stage unless for mixup or protection purposes. What's important is to know you have the option and finding a time that works best for you to use it. It has to fit your playstyle, otherwise you really won't see much results without first integrating it as part of your playstyle

 

[Quickhero]

Okay guys, I hate to say this, but after having a consistent way to play melee-esque Marth via Project M, (I don't have Melee but I play it with my friend and I know how to L-Cancel and sort of wave-dash) I DO understand the reasons why a considerable amount of people dismiss Marth as bad (I disagree but I do understand), and I CERTAINLY understand how some people say that Marth has lost his feel, which I partially agree on.

Marth was just such a smooth and fluid character in Melee/PM and had not much lag on all of his moves which provided him with the tools he needed that was not just enough to manage properly, but enough to combo and provide not only enough to very well make up for the flaws he has, but also MASSIVE satisfaction for players because using combos on a character whose very core design is based on skill and about using weak-spots and strong tippers properly to pull off damage feels ridiculously rewarding and looks pretty cool too. Not only that, but it fits Marth's character so well. He is a leader that utilizes proper strategies in order for his followers to defeat many armies. He also fights himself, and his attack animations in his own Fire Emblem games are very graceful and he is a pretty fast character even in his games. (At least in FE:12) This further fits him in previous games as he comboed with grace via the precision required with the spacing and with speed with the swiftness he could attack.

In this game, however, while Marth still needs spacing and gets rewarded for it, but it's simply not the same. All of Marth's move needlessly have a lot of lag, and this needlessly weakens Marth's combo potential, forcing Marth to only have one or two situational true combos that only work at low percents and his few true combos are so match-up reliant it's ridiculous. I understand Marth in Melee and Brawl was very good, and on the side of "OP", but if things like having Marth's Brawl u-air would be too ridiculous for Smash 4, then why not just nerf the lag frames on u-air and possibly f-air (shouldn't have been as much as it is currently though) and keep the rest slightly toned down from Melee or the same? This way, Marth can be the hype character and combo character he was meant to be still not be completely ridiculous. He really wouldn't dominate the meta this way, either, but he would not only be buffed enough to possibly go beyond a mid-tier character, but a fun character to play and watch as well.

This might sound really childish of me, but I really hope that maybe, since Nintendo is sponsoring Apex, that MAYBE results from the tournament will give Sakurai a hint of things on buffs like these or nerfs (like on Sheik and Diddy) that should happen, and maybe even get some specifics from players that get to the top 8 or something. Wishful thinking to the maximum and it will probably never happen, but it's still a nice thought??? I guess worst comes to worst aka the probable I'll still end up playing Marth because I still think he has a shadow of the feeling he once had and because he's still an okay character, mid-tier and workable.