Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Random4811]

Those new game cube controllers make it possible.

Meh, I'm getting it down on the pro controller.

 

[Locuan]

Meh, I'm getting it down on the pro controller.

By the way, how does the pro controller feel in executing maneuvers when compared to the GC controller? I have yet to test it out.

 

[Quickhero]

By the way, how does the pro controller feel in executing maneuvers when compared to the GC controller? I have yet to test it out.

I'm biased towards the Pro Controller because it feels almost exactly the same to me as the 3ds XL controls, but it's incredibly comfortable. The symmetrical controls are really nice, thanks to the fact that it makes the accessibility of other buttons (especially the c-stick) feel incredibly quick and smooth, and the (slightly) bigger size makes it feel much more comfortable to hold. Again, I'm probably biased because I want the ability to practice on the road AND having a controller with a c-stick and is usable online, and for the fact that, despite playing Melee once in a blue moon, I find it really hard for me to get comfortable with the button sizes/placements..

 

[Random4811]

By the way, how does the pro controller feel in executing maneuvers when compared to the GC controller? I have yet to test it out.

Its aight. Its my alternative right now, and its pretty easy to transition from 3DS to Pro Controller.
I wish I could have it modded, maybe have the C-stick fixed a little, add in octagonal ridges for easier and less frustratingly inconsistent tilts and easier perfect pivoting.

At base though, its pretty good. I recommend it as a good sub for the GCC if you can't get your hands on an adapter, or want to try out a diff control scheme. It is convenient because it works with the rest of the Wii U titles (for the most part) so that is nice.

Its got a gross issue with its rightstick though. it doesnt seem to want to do Uair/Utilt sometimes, like there is a deadzone there where it doesnt properly recieve my inputs. (likely because it was designed as a Camera stick, and up wasnt a direction they were all too concerned about.) Also it has an issue where it doesnt work at all at when in slowed times on training mode (but I havent tested if this is the case for every other controller or not.)

What I do know is I sorta had the same issue with the Classic Controller's right stick, but I also decided that controller was just bad for Smash as it was too small for my hands and the triggers were pretty unreliable.

Its triggers and bumpers are very good, responsive, and useful. I have my ZL set to jump to do Falcon's Up B out of shield (it also seems to help me do Marth's Up B from the ground, which is nice, and somehow it seems to make footstools earlier and helps me do Stick aerials without having to move my fingers around a bunch and miss important windows of opportunity.) If you're contemplating jump-triggering, I'd say go for it. Its pretty useful. I still use X as my primary jump, but ZL is a nice secondary. ZR is my shield, and both bumpers are my grab (if you played with Madcatz controllers, its sort of like also having the M button that as far as I knew when I was a child just destroyed my controller, as whenever I pushed it the controls would go crazy. Once it made my Gamecube shut off and we couldnt get it back on for a year. Unplugged the controller, it came back on) having two grabs is nice, because I can grab from whichever side is "thinking fastest."

Overall, I'd give it a 7/10 or 8/10. Not as nice as the GCC IMHO, but that might just be nostolgia bias. I'll know when I get my hands on an adapter, though.

 

[Vipermoon]

In any Smash games, I don't use C-stick for most smash attacks and I keep tap jump on (I only jump with tap jump). It has always worked well for me. One thing that is a little harder for me to punish with quickly is the tilts (especially with tap jump for utilt). So what I did was change C-stick to Attack rather than Smash so i could punish out of shield safer and more reliably (with a tilt instead of smash). Let's face it, most ground moves in this game have less ending lag (except Marth's) so you gotta have a quicker (and less-punishable) punish. Who else does this? Maybe try it out and let us know what you think?

Up smash out of shield is also really good for punishing so I hope you guys are using it. Sometimes I get a tipper up smash (favorite tipper) OoS from people trying to jump over and past me (while I shield) only to get a sword in their bottom (up smash range is way higher now). Non tipper down tilt to grab almost always works. A falling up air on a grounded opponent can true combo into another up air (even with landing lag). Just throwing things off the top of my head.

I want to mention something that I'm not sure people know of with B reversal. With Marth and probably every character inputting, a direction AFTER neutral B will also reverse aerial momentum. However if you input the direction BEFORE, THEN press B, this is also a B reversal except it does NOT reverse momentum - Marth falls the same way after he turns around. Or is this different B reversal already well known?

Controlling your aerial momentum during reverse shield breaker is a great tool for covering more situations. In my opinion, assuming same skill with both types, inputting the direction before hitting B is easier because you don't have to be as fast with the timing.

 

[Random4811]

In any Smash games, I don't use C-stick for most smash attacks and I keep tap jump on (I only jump with tap jump). It has always worked well for me. One thing that is a little harder for me to punish with quickly is the tilts (especially with tap jump for utilt). So what I did was change C-stick to Attack rather than Smash so i could punish out of shield safer and more reliably (with a tilt instead of smash). Let's face it, most ground moves in this game have less ending lag (except Marth's) so you gotta have a quicker (and less-punishable) punish. Who else does this? Maybe try it out and let us know what you think?

Up smash out of shield is also really good for punishing so I hope you guys are using it. Sometimes I get a tipper up smash (favorite tipper) OoS from people trying to jump over and past me (while I shield) only to get a sword in their bottom (up smash range is way higher now). Non tipper down tilt to grab almost always works. A falling up air on a grounded opponent can true combo into another up air (even with landing lag). Just throwing things off the top of my head.

I want to mention something that I'm not sure people know of with B reversal. With Marth and probably every character inputting, a direction AFTER neutral B will also reverse aerial momentum. However if you input the direction BEFORE, THEN press B, this is also a B reversal except it does NOT reverse momentum - Marth falls the same way after he turns around. Or is this different B reversal already well known?

Controlling your aerial momentum during reverse shield breaker is a great tool for covering more situations. In my opinion, assuming same skill with both types, inputting the direction before hitting B is easier because you don't have to be as fast with the timing.

Yeah, Smash stick is useless this time, because you cant control your momentum while doing aerials. Attack stick is much more useful IMHO anyway, because it makes tilts easier and ftilt is rly good.

I've not tried Usmash out of shield, but I just generally dont like Usmash in this game. Its slow, and its laggy, and although it kind of scoops opponents up, I much prefer Fsmash OoS for my Smash punishes.

 

[Quickhero]

I still really like having the C-Stick set to smash, but probably mostly because pulling tilts in the air isn't difficult for me thanks to the fact that I also play on the 3ds XL, and essentially got comfortable doing it without the need of a C-Stick. More importantly, I really like perfect pivot to Up Smash/Forward Smash to punish shields a LOT.

 

[LoreLes]

I agree with perfect pivot smashing. Tilts are fairly easy to use consistently without setting it to the C stick for me and I prefer to have it for quick smashes.

 

[Random4811]

I still really like having the C-Stick set to smash, but probably mostly because pulling tilts in the air isn't difficult for me thanks to the fact that I also play on the 3ds XL, and essentially got comfortable doing it without the need of a C-Stick.More importantly, I really like perfect pivot to Up Smash/Forward Smash to punish shields a LOT.

But then you lose your consistency with retreating aerials.

 

[Quickhero]

But then you lose your consistency with retreating aerials.

Hmm, how so? Doing a back air/anything air while retreating isn't incredibly hard, and sure, maybe the .3 seconds you might be missing out on will make things slightly harder, I think it's worth it over punishing knockback from a shielded smash/punish the opponent shielding is well worth this slightly more difficult tilts, but I guess it's not a big deal in the long run what the C-Stick does (attack vs smash) anyways, and hey aerials are a key part of Marth and basically anybody not named Little Mac.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah, Smash stick is useless this time, because you cant control your momentum while doing aerials. Attack stick is much more useful IMHO anyway, because it makes tilts easier and ftilt is rly good.

I've not tried Usmash out of shield, but I just generally dont like Usmash in this game. Its slow, and its laggy, and although it kind of scoops opponents up, I much prefer Fsmash OoS for my Smash punishes.

I don't remember but if you have it on attack stick can you then control momentum with aerials? I agree in this game that trick is too inconsistent with smash stick.

Fsmash OoS isn't truly out of shield (if you tried it you'd roll dodge). It's just drop shield, then fsmash. The only smash one can do out of shield is up smash. Same for run-cancel up smash. So if they are doing some pretty unsafe aerials on your shield Usmash OoS usually works and can get you kills.

 

[Quickhero]

Yeah, sorry for saying Forward Smash, I've never used that out of shield but I just assumed it was possible, but yeah my point still stands with Up Smash. I think it's just preferences between slightly more consistency with aerials or perfect pivots to smash attacks. I find it much better for me to get good with the latter and just use my aerials the good old fashion way, especially since I also play the 3ds version.

 

[Random4811]

Hmm, how so? Doing a back air/anything air while retreating isn't incredibly hard, and sure, maybe the .3 seconds you might be missing out on will make things slightly harder, I think it's worth it over punishing knockback from a shielded smash/punish the opponent shielding is well worth this slightly more difficult tilts, but I guess it's not a big deal in the long run what the C-Stick does (attack vs smash) anyways, and hey aerials are a key part of Marth and basically anybody not named Little Mac.

The frames you lose are precious and you cant start your retreat immediately, leaving you in unfavorable range. Full hop retreating fair is super good and makes Marth untouchable to a large portion of the cast (including Mac), even if they shield. You can't consistently do it on the 3DS. Even if you're great at it, you're going to end up accidentally doing the wrong aerial

Honestly it is a pretty big deal for Marth to have attack stick, as his aerials are most of his core gameplay. His tilts are pretty core as well. Honestly, you'll find yourself accidentally Smashing when you wanna tilt as opposed to the opposite, Smashes are so super easy to do. However if you are too quick like you need to be in many situations, you'll end up smashing instead of tilting- and that is where attack stick comes in.

I don't remember but if you have it on attack stick can you then control momentum with aerials? I agree in this game that trick is too inconsistent with smash stick.

Fsmash OoS isn't truly out of shield (if you tried it you'd roll dodge). It's just drop shield, then fsmash. The only smash one can do out of shield is up smash. Same for run-cancel up smash. So if they are doing some pretty unsafe aerials on your shield Usmash OoS usually works and can get you kills.

Yeah, if you use attack stick you can control momentum with aerials easily. If you don't, you've gotta flick it the same way you have to flick it for Perfect Pivoting

Yeah, but it comes out really really quickly. It also works pretty well for anti air, assuming they arent super far above you. I tend to just go for up B out of shield or DB out of shield.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah, but it comes out really really quickly. It also works pretty well for anti air, assuming they arent super far above you. I tend to just go for up B out of shield or DB out of shield.

It's all useful. We just have to know what to use when and switch it up so that they can't reliably bait out a specific punish from us.

 

[Random4811]

It's all useful. We just have to know what to use when and switch it up so that they can't reliably bait out a specific punish from us.

Yeah. I probably need to acquaint myself with Usmash a little more. I switch up my punishes for sure, and I'm sure there are places I could use Usmash that I don't.

 

[LoreLes]

I have to disagree with accidentally using smashes over tilts or tilts over smashes. Ever since I transitioned over to the Wii U version I've never had times where I "accidentally" got a smash attack over a tilt with the regular control stick input or reverse. I only say this not to discredit what you're saying but it must really be a different conditioning environment.

I tend to space with empty short hops or walking and during those two movement options tilting is very easy to use. If we're going off about retaining aerial momentum it's still fairly easy to do but like I said it's different for everyone. But we can all universally agree that whatever you have attached to the C stick it will benefit all sorts of Marth players.

 

[Random4811]

I have to disagree with accidentally using smashes over tilts or tilts over smashes. Ever since I transitioned over to the Wii U version I've never had times where I "accidentally" got a smash attack over a tilt with the regular control stick input or reverse. I only say this not to discredit what you're saying but it must really be a different conditioning environment.

I tend to space with empty short hops or walking and during those two movement options tilting is very easy to use. If we're going off about retaining aerial momentum it's still fairly easy to do but like I said it's different for everyone. But we can all universally agree that whatever you have attached to the C stick it will benefit all sorts of Marth players.

Its certainly easier than on the 3DS, but why risk it when Smashes are literally the easiest thing to do in the game? Attack stick is just generally the superior option because of the aerial momentum. Sure, you can still retreat wellish with enough practice. But you're losing frames, because there are points where you could retreat with attack stick that you can't otherwise. You lose important frames on the way, and to Marth, those frames are precious.

 

[Locuan]

Are you talking about the C-stick and the momentum shenanigans that happen with the new mechanics? If not what do you do you lose frames on? I'm a bit confused.

 

[Vipermoon]

I agree that Marth's frames are precious. More so than many characters. There are so many moves we already lost frames on that almost combo because of these changes. Or punishes that barely work because of changes to Marth or the opponents characters. Or stuff we can nearly get away with due to some other nerf or mechanic.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

When you guys play Marth how do you go about getting your punishes? I get my punishes by forcing my opponent to make a mistake rather than waiting for one. Sometimes I even switch up my style mid-match and get aggressive,but I am not sure that is a good idea. Do you guys think getting aggressive with Marth could be good if you are mixing things up?

 

[Vipermoon]

When you guys play Marth how do you go about getting your punishes? I get my punishes by forcing my opponent to make a mistake rather than waiting for one. Sometimes I even switch up my style mid-match and get aggressive,but I am not sure that is a good idea. Do you guys think getting aggressive with Marth could be good if you are mixing things up?

Yes definitely. If you turn up the pressure your opponent will make a mistake and you'll get a good punish in. But go too agressive or aggressive for too long and it's you who makes the mistake. Obvious, how you play depends on matchup but I think it's very important to constantly switch your styles.

...

I want to mention something that I'm not sure people know of with B reversal. With Marth and probably every character inputting, a direction AFTER neutral B will also reverse aerial momentum. However if you input the direction BEFORE, THEN press B, this is also a B reversal except it does NOT reverse momentum - Marth falls the same way after he turns around. Or is this different B reversal already well known?

...

I mentioned this before but I don't think I got any replies about it. Are both types of B reversals well known and do you guys use them? This could fit in the smash 4 competitive discussion forum but I'll stay in Marth for now.

 

[Oblivion129]

I mentioned this before but I don't think I got any replies about it. Are both types of B reversals well known and do you guys use them? This could fit in the smash 4 competitive discussion forum but I'll stay in Marth for now.

Yes, both are well known and they're used. You can also do both in one neutral B:

Doing the opposite direction and then B is called turnaround B, while doing the direction after B is called B-reversal.

Doing opposite direction, followed by B and then forward direction, is called wavebounce I believe, which is like combining both turnaround B and B-reversal. Timing is strict, though. There might be a way to achieve it by having your c-stick to specials, but I wouldn't recommend changing your c-stick with Marth.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yes, both are well known and they're used. You can also do both in one neutral B:

Doing the opposite direction and then B is called turnaround B, while doing the direction after B is called B-reversal.

Doing opposite direction, followed by B and then forward direction, is called wavebounce I believe, which is like combining both turnaround B and B-reversal. Timing is strict, though. There might be a way to achieve it by having your c-stick to specials, but I wouldn't recommend changing your c-stick with Marth.

Oh I see. Yeah I know both methods were in Brawl and PM (are they both in melee? forgot) but I thought B reversal was the only name and therefore people combined them into one tech skill (which would make less experienced players not know about the other). But that's not the case.

Wavebounce huh? I tried doing this last week off the top of my head but couldn't get it. If I am reading this right, wavebounce turns around 360° because it's a turnaround B then a B reversal?

Specials C stick sounds interesting but yeah I don't see it being useful lol.

 

[Oblivion129]

Oh I see. Yeah I know both methods were in Brawl and PM (are they both in melee? forgot) but I thought B reversal was the only name and therefore people combined them into one tech skill (which would make less experienced players not know about the other). But that's not the case.

Wavebounce huh? I tried doing this last week off the top of my head but couldn't get it. If I am reading this right, wavebounce turns around 360° because it's a turnaround B then a B reversal?

Specials C stick sounds interesting but yeah I don't see it being useful lol.

Yeah, wavebounce is basically a 360 turn because you'll be facing forward, but you'll have momentum. Great for Greninja's water shuriken and several other projectile characters, but for Marth you'll be fine with just turnaround B and B-reversal.

My c-stick is set to attack, but some would prefer setting it to smash (default).

 

[Locuan]

Hey @ Vipermoon , I merged your posts. Be careful with double posting since it's against the Smashboards Terms of Service and Rules. Also, welcome to Smashboards!

 

[Ekans647]

Hey guys! I've been playing Marth recently and have been look to integrate myself more into the Smash Community. I generally prefer heavier characters, but I love the way Marth plays. I look forward to joining you guys in discussions.

 

[Locuan]

Welcome @ Ekans647 ! I'm actually trying to learn Ike on my side of things. How did you get interested in Marth's play style?

 

[Ekans647]

Welcome @ Ekans647 ! I'm actually trying to learn Ike on my side of things. How did you get interested in Marth's play style?

I saw the Ken Combo and Dancing Blade. Dair and Dancing Blade are some of my favorite moves in the game. I decide to try him out in PM, and I he was a natural defensive playstyle. I play a very defensively, so ver since Snake was cut, I've been looking for a new defensive character. Does Marth excel at defense? Or does he focus more on offense?

 

[Locuan]

I saw the Ken Combo...

Just so you are aware, this is not a combo in Smash 4, it is in PM/Melee though!

I play a very defensively, so ever since Snake was cut, I've been looking for a new defensive character. Does Marth excel at defense? Or does he focus more on offense?

Marth is a spacing character. I do believe you will enjoy his play style then. A bunch of stuff you can read up on Marth's game play but you can find them all linked in the Competitive Resource Thread.

 

[Ekans647]

Just so you are aware, this is not a combo in Smash 4, it is in PM/Melee though!

Marth is a spacing character. I do believe you will enjoy his play style then. A bunch of stuff you can read up on Marth's game play but you can find them all linked in the Competitive Resource Thread.

I thought so. I look forward to learning. How baldy was Marth nerfed?

I know, due to the change to Dair right? I'm assuming this also applies to Lucina. If I recall, Dair only meteor Smashes during the middle of the swing at the tip. Am I right?

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

I thought so. I look forward to learning. How baldy was Marth nerfed?

I know, due to the change to Dair right? I'm assuming this also applies to Lucina. If I recall, Dair only meteor Smashes during the middle of the swing at the tip. Am I right?

I can't say his dair was like that before or not,but his nerfs have to do with him having a lot of ending lag on his aerials and inconsistent side-b that stops after the second hit even when your timing is the same as when it works. Lucina also suffers from the same things Marth has.

 

[Ekans647]

I can't say his dair was like that before or not,but his nerfs have to do with him having a lot of ending lag on his aerials and inconsistent side-b that stops after the second hit even when your timing is the same as when it works. Lucina also suffers from the same things Marth has.

Really? Dancing Blade will just sometimes stop for no reason? I've only had that problem inline dug to lag interrupting my timing.

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Really? Dancing Blade will just sometimes stop for no reason? I've only had that problem inline dug to lag interrupting my timing.

It might just be online lag since it seems to work without fail when I am in training mode,but it happens even in matches with no lag for me.

 

[Ekans647]

It might just be online lag since it seems to work without fail when I am in training mode,but it happens even in matches with no lag for me.

That's never happened. Then again, I learned the rhythm for Dancing Blade on P:M, so I can easily preform the technique without fail.

 

[Vipermoon]

Dancing blade always stops for a reason. I don't remember where (either in Marth or Lucina threads) but the timing was posted somewhere. I believe it was after the 2nd hit hitbox ends then you can input the 3rd, or something like that.

Lag is it's enemy though.

 

[Ekans647]

Dancing blade always stops for a reason. I don't remember where (either in Marth or Lucina threads) but the timing was posted somewhere. I believe it was after the 2nd hit hitbox ends then you can input the 3rd, or something like that.

Lag is it's enemy though.

Lag kills. I'm a little hesitant unsung online because I don't wan the lag to mess up my rhythm.

So how much was Marth's range reduced from Brawl? I know he has more disjoint reach, but I'm talking about overall range.

 

[Zano]

idk how u people are possibly lagging with the new smash, it seems next to impossible if you just have a wired connection

 

[Vipermoon]

Lag kills. I'm a little hesitant unsung online because I don't wan the lag to mess up my rhythm.

So how much was Marth's range reduced from Brawl? I know he has more disjoint reach, but I'm talking about overall range.

No one really knows about range for sure but some things are pretty obvious. Up air, up tilt, up smash reach higher and I'm inclined to say nair, shield breaker, and dancing blade might too. The only move I think decreased is Fsmash but just a little.

idk how u people are possibly lagging with the new smash, it seems next to impossible if you just have a wired connection

Do you play for glory? You may have wired but the guys you play with have slow wireless or their Wii U is too far from their router or both...or lag is Nintendo's fault which seems to be the case in many situations.

Edit: And if the person is far away like Japan. I always have significant input lag against Japanese players.

 

[Zano]

Me playing for glory LOOOL

 

[Ekans647]

I hate the way For Glory is formatted. Not having a proper ranking system and leaderboard makes it very hard for a player to gauge their ability. The worst part if the aforementioned ranking system. Since the system is vague, it'll set players up with some roughly (I use that word very loosely) of their skill level. So some player, like myself, will get caught in this vacuum were they are matched with player who are far better than them or people who are far worse. I still don't understand Global Smash Power and it would have been so much simpler for Sakurai to implement a proper ranking system.