Sega Vs. Everyone (Zamus and Marth entry complete)

[Camalange]

Well, you could just side-b and try to net yourself a free combo right? I imagine that alone has quite a few possibilities. But more than that I would probably just bair him.

Are you saying you would side-B Pikachu's side-B? I thought Pika's side-B was superior to Sonics(priority wise)

 

[Browny]

ftilt should clank with pikas side b

it clanks with a reverse warlock punch, why wouldnt it clank with that lol

 

[Tenki]

Are you saying you would side-B Pikachu's side-B? I thought Pika's side-B was superior to Sonics(priority wise)

Probably invincibility frames.

On a totally unrelated note, the Luigi in your sig looks so dirty

 

[Camalange]

Probably invincibility frames.

On a totally unrelated note, the Luigi in your sig looks so dirty

Hahaha well that's how Luigi plays
He plays dirty

 

[Camalange]

ftilt should clank with pikas side b

it clanks with a reverse warlock punch, why wouldnt it clank with that lol

Sonic's Ftilt VS. Ganon's Reverse Warlock Punch

Ftilt=WP

...HOW COME I NEVER NOTICED THIS BEFORE??

 

[TwinkleToes]

Cama, hit with the priority frames and you will win... I have verified this :x

 

[Camalange]

Cama, hit with the priority frames and you will win... I have verified this :x

Cool beans!

 

[ShadowLink84]

What about Olimar's tilts and jab, what kind of priority do those attacks have over Sonic? I've heard that few Olimars actually use those attacks since his smashes are so good, but it sure would suck to get around the smashes only to end up eating tilts and jabs if it turns out that those have really solid priority/combos/whatever else. [/quote

generally the ftilt/jabs are not good for Olimar since by the time he is using them the opponent is upclose and Olimar does NOT want that to occur.They have priority but their range sucks.

Oh, and I think his neutral air attack has this funky vacuum effect on it that pops you up (which, if it does, would probably leave you in a good position to get up smashed) and with the exception of forward tilt and back air I'm pretty sure I've always lost to it, so a short hop Nair could be really dangerous when you get in close (take that with a grain of salt though, its been awhile since I've fought an Olimar).

True but why would Sonic be approaching so directly? @_@

 

[samper]

I guess you really shouldn't be that direct in approaching Olimar, but I think it's worth remembering the vacuum on Oli's Nair if for no reason other than to remind you not to approach in a predictable fashion.

 

[Tenki]

vs MK, random stuff.

Uh, I forgot what thread I posted the Spring vs SH (Marth) info, but I recently realized its usage vs Metaknight's glide attack.

Spring shield is too good.

anyway, on a weird note, I clanged with/defeated MK's side-B... with F-air.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Hmm we need something for Olimar.

Olimar is one of those characters that really is going to test Sonic's ability to space properly as well as take advantage of openings and punish.

Mainly because Olimar's ground game is arguably the strongest in the game, to the point that even Snake has issues trying to approach.

His grabs stay out longer than others.
They are also as long as Link/Samus grab range without the cooldown time.
They also can lead into combos that can easily rack up damage.

All of his Smashes are dangerous, especially his Usmash.
The main reason for this is because Olimar can use a Usmash when he rolls, similar to the way one can glide toss. Not only that its over prioritizes the majority of Sonic's moves.

While his ground game is extremely strong, Sonic does have several advantages.
For one many of his moves remove pikmin so Olimar won't be capable of using the pikmin toss as a method of causing damage and slowing Sonic down. (since most characters have to stop and remove the pikmin and leave themselves open to attack or lose their advantages)

Up close Sonic can do harm to Olimar, once he breaks through Olimar's defenses Olimar will be hard pressed in order to get rid of Sonic. Once Olimar is off the stage Olimar is again at a disadvantage due to his poor recovery.

The match will be based upon who controls and who punishes the best.

anyone agree or disagree?

I find many Olimar's agree and that the matchup is most likely neutral if not a slight advantage for Olimar.

The matchup is even, and takes a long time. It's a matter of who can get the other to mess up more often. Neither character has something in this particular matchup that they could just outright overwhelm the other with, so it's all about baiting mistakes, and punishing appropriately.

The smashes are fast for smashes, but Sonic is fast enough to punish any of them if they miss unless he's at the opposite end of a large stage or something...

What about Olimar's tilts and jab, what kind of priority do those attacks have over Sonic? I've heard that few Olimars actually use those attacks since his smashes are so good, but it sure would suck to get around the smashes only to end up eating tilts and jabs if it turns out that those have really solid priority/combos/whatever else.

Oh, and I think his neutral air attack has this funky vacuum effect on it that pops you up (which, if it does, would probably leave you in a good position to get up smashed) and with the exception of forward tilt and back air I'm pretty sure I've always lost to it, so a short hop Nair could be really dangerous when you get in close (take that with a grain of salt though, its been awhile since I've fought an Olimar).

Actually, the tilts and jab are very good against Sonic. They do have good priority over Sonic's moves, and can be useful to combo with.

DI the n-air to avoid getting comboed too much.

 

[Camalange]

Uh, I forgot what thread I posted the Spring vs SH (Marth) info, but I recently realized its usage vs Metaknight's glide attack.

Spring shield is too good.

anyway, on a weird note, I clanged with/defeated MK's side-B... with F-air.

I think it was the mindgames thread, but uh, i'm asuming against metaknight, when his glide attack lifted he hit the spring?

 

[Tenki]

No, the spring just prevents him from hitting Sonic with a glide attack. Like, if he were to position himself to actually hit Sonic, he would fly into the spring and get launched up instead.

This gives MK a few choices:
- Go over and behind Sonic (but this leaves his back open, so that's good for Sonic)
- Land earlier and GA cancel into a ground move
- Hit the spring:
- - Anyone can just double jump to avoid being sent too high
- - A rising attack (normal aerial), or cancel into a special (so be wary if you think your opponent has caught on)

 

[samper]

I think I mentioned this before, but you can beat out MK's glide attack with F-air (as in you'll hit his glide attack and then proceed to hit him). Now I'm not sure how strict the timing is, if you have to do it so that the first hit of Fair clashes with MK's attack, or what kind of range is involved, but I've done it about 4 times (the first against a CPU, other 3 times in training) so I'm pretty sure it can be done. If anyone wants to try it for themselves and look into please do, I have no way of getting a video and don't have anyone to play with other than the CPU right now so I can't really look into it further.

@Rapid_Assassin/Shadowlink
So Olimar players think its an even fight too? Guess I just need to work at it since the guy tosses me around like a rag doll unless I can get him off the stage. Thanks for the comments on the jab, tilts, and N-air too, I'll have to keep that in mind.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

@Rapid_Assassin/Shadowlink
So Olimar players think its an even fight too? Guess I just need to work at it since the guy tosses me around like a rag doll unless I can get him off the stage. Thanks for the comments on the jab, tilts, and N-air too, I'll have to keep that in mind.

I think it's an even fight, and I've played the matchup more than the rest of the Olimars combined, most likely. Granted not everyone else has lots of friends who all main Sonic. But I've seen how the matchup works, and anyone who will tell you that it's more than a slight advantage in either direction doesn't know what they're talking about.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

^She is very very right.

And she kicks my *** when ever we play.

 

[Tenki]

Sonic vs MK- Glide Attack, Side-B and Tornado!

^She is very very right.

And she kicks my *** when ever we play.

I thought RA/Emmy is a boy.

I think I mentioned this before, but you can beat out MK's glide attack with F-air (as in you'll hit his glide attack and then proceed to hit him). Now I'm not sure how strict the timing is, if you have to do it so that the first hit of Fair clashes with MK's attack, or what kind of range is involved, but I've done it about 4 times (the first against a CPU, other 3 times in training) so I'm pretty sure it can be done. If anyone wants to try it for themselves and look into please do, I have no way of getting a video and don't have anyone to play with other than the CPU right now so I can't really look into it further.

I did some testing w/ my brother:

N-air clangs with Glide Attack, but it cancels out both of their attackboxes
F-air clangs with Glide Attack, but it has multiple hits, thus it outprioritizes the move.
U-air loses.
D-air can hit behind Glide attack (lol considering that most MK's will just GAC [use GA to cancel landing lag], jumping is a good counter to the move o_O;
Did not test B-air, but it seems too hard to land vs MK's GA. It MAY have the same results as N-air.

...and ... *drumroll*
ASC beats Glide attack, due to multiple hits! Yeaaaaaahhh!

And some more testing:
F-air defeats MK's side-B head-to-head
U-smash defeats MK's side-B unless MK points it at Sonic's body. (in other words, if MK only goes straight on the ground)

VS Tornado:
(other than invincibility frames or targetting the top/middle with spring or D-air...)

- Grounded tornado gets outprioritized by: SDR (grounded spincharge), Fsmash (tip). Clang cancels with F-tilt, Fsmash (tip), Usmash (start), B-airs, some SDRs.
- Some aerial tornados can be skimmed and outprioritized by SDR's, but I'm not sure when it happens.

 

[samper]

So can we safely say that when MK goes into glide mode Sonic needs to get aggressive with F-air/ASC? Since MK's only options are to try and beat you to the punch or try to avoid you all together (which could leave him in a bad position if you're rising up to him), it seems like continuing to pressure him would be a good idea. At least I think those are the only two things he can do, or does he not go into free fall after a glide ends?

Someone should probably check to see if the same things apply to Pit and Charizard's glides too.

 

[Tenki]

Combos don exits!11 ... kill Metaknight at 60%!

So can we safely say that when MK goes into glide mode Sonic needs to get aggressive with F-air/ASC? Since MK's only options are to try and beat you to the punch or try to avoid you all together (which could leave him in a bad position if you're rising up to him), it seems like continuing to pressure him would be a good idea. At least I think those are the only two things he can do, or does he not go into free fall after a glide ends?

Well, it's all about timing and spacing. As long as both attacks are out at the same time, Sonic will win.

Also, while testing out some kill combos, I found out this nifty little combo (CONSECUTIVE HIT) that kills MK from 55-70% (any higher will be a juggle that he can attack out of), grounded or jumping (vs computer in training mode)

ASC [first hit] > U-air > spring > U-air

Spring>U-air must be done confidently and with strict timing as to not allow MK to N-air you to your death! Works best at 60-65%.

It takes advantage of MK's biggest weakness - light vertical weight. Have fun spending your time trying to get MK to a normal KO% to kill him with an Fsmash, but switch to u-air and vertical kills and feel the difference ;O

btw its 'critical %' is around 80-85% for Marth.


Counter move to Glide Attack..!?!?
...have fun with that.

----------

edit
it's actually an old combo derived from the side-B version (75-85% for MK), and it's even listed in the Finishing Moves thread. However, I was naiive to the properties of ASC at the time and didn't realize that down-B and side-B's aerial hits were different.

...yeah.

edit2
i tried it out in a match and it worked.

hoorah.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I need help on Olimar. The most I can do is SHBair to edgeguard. I get grabbed and smashed all over. Makes me a sad hedgehog. T_T

 

[Tenki]

You can try F-air too - If he's low enough, he'll DI through you so he'll be sent backwards, but if you catch him with a falling F-air, you can drag him downwards so he'll send himself under the level.

Or like most tethers, if you can predict his tether length and timing, drop under the edge with a B-air for a stage spike.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Attention!!

Added Olimar today, the others are coming up shortly. As for vids on the other sections, be patient they will be added eventually. The other characters will come soon enough.

Please keep all discussion about match-ups in this thread, don't go making other threads about said character. With all those threads, it harder to keep track of things, so if you got a question or discussion, bring it here. Don't be surprised if you get ignored by accident, if you got something to say or add, put it here.

Thank you and please make things easier so I can do this smoothly .

 

[Tenki]

btw ggs BT. My Battlefield game improved after our fights xD

Sonic's head is too strong.

F-air (head) outprioritizes ZSS' stungun.

 

[DKKountry]

Quote from the match-up chart:
"Be mindful he has four attacks which he can use without his Pikmen (Which are Nair, Standard A, Utilt and Dash A)."

6 attacks: Don't forget Olimar's Down-tilt and Forward-tilt! Those are two of my favorite non-Pikmin attacks!

I like your match-up chart very much; lots of good points.

 

[Tenki]

Question: When (move-wise) is G&W most vulnerable to ASC?

he has similar weight to MK so if you can land an ASC on him from 55-70%, you can pull the star KO combo.

Like for MK, you can ASC him out of a low tornado or counter a glide attack and go into the 'nao u die' combo, but does G&W have any moves that are susceptible to ASC other than his neutral B?

 

[Umby]

I don't think there's really any move on G&W that you can punish with ASC. He'll just end up uair stalling you if he's not recovering from a move and fair/bairing you, I would think.

 

[BadGuy]

One thing I've found that works great against wolf is edgehoging at the last second, wolf can't di very well after doing it so, taking the ledge instead of trying to hit him works great. Instant death is nice to have.

 

[Tenki]

hwo 2 play vs game and watch??//

 

[xsonicx_13]

Your Fox matchup doesn't help. Hope is overrated, it seems.

if it doesnt work dont use it and also if you can beat him then for sure you are better

 

[Camalange]

if it doesnt work dont use it and also if you can beat him then for sure you are better

Wasn't this comment on like...the first page? What's this...the 18th page?
Anyway G&W is a real b*tch. All his smashes are so strong and that dair of his is so strong, so fast, and has practically no landing lag so I would recommend being on guard a lot when he's above you, then of course go from a shield grab once he hits. But man, he owns on the ground and in the air. Heck is recovery has gotten so much better (He now has a parachute that allows him to attack after using an UpB.

 

[Browny]

hwo 2 play vs game and watch??//

press b
pick snake
????
win

 

[Tenki]

bawwww

but i wan beat g&w wit sonik!11


PS:
I found out that it's possible to hit a G&W doing turtle/box before he lands using SDR/grounded spin charge lol

Also, needs a bit of testing on up-diagonal f-tilt/f-smash. I think I F-smashed a G&W during one of his SH aerials with an up-tilted F-smash.

 

[da K.I.D.]

press b
pick snake
????
Phail

Fixed, youre right, only quitters pick snake

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

>.>

.....I can't use Snake.......or MK.......

T_T

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think Sonic's Fsmash may have a disjointed hitbox since I've managed to cancel several moves that should have more priority. @_@

I've also managed to beat out Marth's Dsmash with my own which is kinda odd.

I also would like to question the sonic vs Fox matchup.
Blue said that its a very hard matchup for Sonic biut I would ahve to disagree.

Unlike Falco and Wolf Sonic does not have to fear Fox's lasers because while they are rapid fire they do not cause flinching and Sonic would be very quick to rush in and attack Fox.

if Fox attempts to SDl sonic can spincharge under it (he can do the same with Falco) and punish Fox.
The main issue that I have with Fox is his very powerful Usmash since it can kill sonic at early percents especially since it can link from his Dair.

however I find that when I play a defensive Sonic I fair far better.
Mainly since Fox doesn't have many options at far range and isn't capable of applying the same pressure as Falco does.


Edgeguarding Sonic I find is also difficult for Fox since he really cannot venture out too far for an edge guard without placing himself at risk.
Nor can he keep Sonic above him for a long amount of time.

I also find that because of Fox's quick falling speed I can land 2-3 Dtilts which can link up to Utilts .

I don't believe the matchup to be a hard one for Sonic mainly since unlike Falco, Sonic can take full advantage of being far away and so is not as easily pressured into getting close.

 

[IceDX]

I agree to The above thread ............¨Sonic Does have a disjointed hitbox¨..Lol Jk I m Not Shure About That...

About the Fox Match Up Hes Really Not That Hard to Beat as Sonic

 

[Umby]

I would avoid structuring your posts as such, just to avoid negative responses.

 

[Tenki]

More vs MK moves - DSMASH>TORNADO! // and Yoshi. Yes. Yoshi.

VS MK's Tornado:
According to BlueTerrorist, and I've also seen/done it myself:
- Dsmash (initial back-forth slide) completely outprioritizes MK's Tornado.
- U-air outprioritizes glide attack as well

-I'm going to reconfirm that Sonic F-air > MK's side-B.

And another possibility: Sonic F-air vs MK's tornado (middle-front section?) = Sonic wins? Someone find the exact situation for this, because I beat an MK out of an aerial tornado with F-air, and aerial tornados are when he has most priority.

And another thing I noticed, well-positioned D-air > MK's up-B, and as usual, try to get behind the MK and you'll have an easier time smashing him. Note that I tested this in wifi and got a few well-placed smashes on an MK, but that was because he pulled upwards and floated down instead of going downwards and Glide-attack-cancelling on the floor.

that aside...

-------------------

YOSHI.

Discuss.

>_> if you need any experience vs a Yoshi, check AiB. That place is full of Yoshis, seriously.

But specifically, try vs burntsocks.

Yoshi Tongue <= Wario bite?
Yoshi retreating pivot Grab <= Olimar grab?

also, dash attack has high priority, and double jump has SAF, though part of my problem (personally) is misreading his jump distance and length of SAF, or are there moves that can break through the DJ SAF, similar to Snake's up-B?

Didn't get to test much, but his egg throw seems to have good priority as well, and I'm not sure if Sonic has a move (that isn't invincible) that can break through an egg throw and hit Yoshi.

His Usmash defeats spring projectiles, and unfortunately, spring projectiles don't even clang with it, so you can't catch him offguard in idle frames like you can to ZSS or Zelda, since theirs clang with falling springs.

quite an annoyance =[

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

If the oli is a whistle *****, like Emmy is, use Fair instead of Bair. The multiple hits will normally go through if you time and space it right.

I hate Emmy and her SA Whistle of ultimate life.

 

[memphischains]

sonic sucks lol