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Sega Vs. Everyone (Zamus and Marth entry complete)

Tenki

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lol dont quote me on something i wrote 2 months ago :< that was before i knew about snake-boosting and his utilt of doom.

but sonic still ***** ike

ikes bair is powerful as hell... when compared to everyone else. sonic has quite a powerful b-air himself, i dont remember the numbers but i think theres only a 20% difference in thier b-airs to kill a mario from centre of FD. and honestly, ikes b-air is so predictable. he cant combo or punish into it
Honestly, in a real match, it's between the players' skills. Ike players seem to have this weird... dodge prediction game down, as well as weird jumping patterns that are actually kinda hard to read.

Ike's B-air is as predictable as any of Sonic's killing moves- It's a punishing move upon itself, but in a different way.
 

TwinkleToes

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Ike can kill everyone before they can kill him, he's a beast. I think that if as a Sonic you can't manage to effectively evade and counter the bulk of Ike's attacks you don't have a future as a Sonic because he definitely can do just that with greater ease than most characters.
 

OneWingedAngelo1

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Ike can kill everyone before they can kill him, he's a beast. I think that if as a Sonic you can't manage to effectively evade and counter the bulk of Ike's attacks you don't have a future as a Sonic because he definitely can do just that with greater ease than most characters.
So are you saying that a Good Sonic player should always beat a good Ike player?

I am slightly confused?
 

Browny

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Ike can kill everyone before they can kill him, he's a beast. I think that if as a Sonic you can't manage to effectively evade and counter the bulk of Ike's attacks you don't have a future as a Sonic because he definitely can do just that with greater ease than most characters.
can, but wont.

honestly as long as people avoid his fsmash and u-air which are easy enough to see coming, his only decent kill move becomes his ftilt which wont kill till over 100 anyway. plenty of characters can send him off stage and simply gimp QD to ko him very early.

anyone with a low-trajectoy smash attack will KO ike well before 100. its amazing how few people actually try to gimp QD, is really easy
 

TwinkleToes

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?

Sonic can gimp Ike too, so I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to convince me of.
 

Browny

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?

Sonic can gimp Ike too, so I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to convince me of.

well you said ike can kill everyone before they kill him. the same, effectively applies to jigglypuff with rest. stay away from the ike fsmash, and its easy to survive well past 100% against ike.
 

samper

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Hey, this might help out anyone having trouble with DK.

His recovery can be shut down with Fair. I did it a bunch against the cpu in training and it looks like it will beat it no matter when you activate Fair or when he uses up B if you come at him from the bottom and possibly from the top as well (not sure about that one, we occasionally both hit each other, in which case I guess you could use the spring to throw him off...maybe). However I'm pretty sure Fair will always lose if you try and go at his hands.

So if you split DK up into three parts the feet being bottom, his head being the top, and his hands (the actual attack) being the middle, his weak points are his feet and head so use Fair on those if you can (by either falling onto him or jumping at him just for clarification)

Sorry if this is common knowledge, but I didn't see it in DK's section so I figured I'd go ahead and say it. I'd like someone to double check my tests though, just to make sure I didn't screw something up/miss something (preferably someone with a buddy to test the various activation times and heights).
 

Fox Hater

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I'm sorry to interrupt but where can I find vid of really good sonic. and they told me wes was using Sonic is this true. I've been trying hard to find some vids but found some lucky guy but he didnt impresed me too much, he was decent , averege
 

Deathwish238

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oh i want to see what u fellas have to say for sonic vs zelda...i had a discussion about this in the zelda forums and i'll prolly copy n paste the posts but after i hear what u guys think is an effective way of taking down a smart and good zelda. maybe it'll give me ideas
 

Tenki

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vs Marth !?!?!

guys I think I found something funny vs Marth.

What's one of Marth's most feared approaches?

SH F-air.

What does Marth have to do to do it?

Jump.

What does Sonic have that disrupts jumps...?

Grounded Springs!

If you don't see it yet, a grounded spring can screw up Marth's (or anyone's) aerial approach lol.

You set up a spring in front of Sonic (maybe 2 character lengths away) so that Marth can't SH an F-air at you without being spring'd. Simple as that.

mindgaaames lolol
 

Browny

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whats even funnier against marth. get him to high % and bthrow off the edge. dont be a nub, and time the edgehog perfectly such that it leaves marth no choice but to up-b through the ledge, and over the top. do the rapid-ledge climb (i cant remember which button it is) and bthrow/fsmash off again.

repeat until ragequit.

also works very well against zelda.

sonic can do this better than most others since if you misstime the ledgegrab and get stage spiked, sonic can easily recover from it while pretty much every other character dies. it might not work against pro marths, but everyone i play seems to fall for it again and again until they get edgehogged and simply dont recover.
 

OneWingedAngelo1

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oh i want to see what u fellas have to say for sonic vs zelda...i had a discussion about this in the zelda forums and i'll prolly copy n paste the posts but after i hear what u guys think is an effective way of taking down a smart and good zelda. maybe it'll give me ideas
I would imagine that Zelda is a tough match up... Her Up Tilt has really good priority which would stop most of your advances and then she could just keep her distance with Din Fire, or advance on you with walking Forward Tilts....

I wouldn't think this match up is very fun for sonics at all...
 

FrostByte

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Most of Sonic's attacks cancel out Din's fire, and he should be able to reach Zelda before the lag on Din's fire ends and get a grab off. Sonic should always try to keep Zelda close to him and in the air as all her aerials but nair are hard to wit with. Zelda controls the ground in this matchup, so you'll have to be playing really counter-agressive on the ground, going for shielded areials or grabs. Zelda's grab is nothing to worry about really because of it's startup lag, therefore you know she's going to attack most of the time meaning you're safe in your shield. Watch out for her Dsmash. That thing is fast as hell.
 

algandar88

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whats even funnier against marth. get him to high % and bthrow off the edge. dont be a nub, and time the edgehog perfectly such that it leaves marth no choice but to up-b through the ledge, and over the top. do the rapid-ledge climb (i cant remember which button it is) and bthrow/fsmash off again.

repeat until ragequit.

also works very well against zelda.

sonic can do this better than most others since if you misstime the ledgegrab and get stage spiked, sonic can easily recover from it while pretty much every other character dies. it might not work against pro marths, but everyone i play seems to fall for it again and again until they get edgehogged and simply dont recover.
wat i luv to do is edgehog do a slow roll so he doesnt sweetspot then hug the ledge b4 he catches it.....they hate that so much and i luv it
 

pirateguru

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Speaking of Sheik I played my first GOOD sheik today.

My advice.
Do not bring in the sideB/downB 2 aerial in this match-up. Sheik can chase you into the air and get a bair off on you almost every time. In my opinion besides that. Sheik and Sonic are practically equal in a match-up. The speed advantage isn't really there and the air game can go either way. Playing Against Sheik with Sonic really seems more to who can outwit who. a better explanation would have to be Ryu vs Ken, There the same but different.
lol that might be a bad metaphor. Anyways go face some sheiks that know how to use her and you'll know what I mean
 

pirateguru

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If Sheik chases your SD combo into the air, just mix it in with homing attacks and double takes.
I'm pretty sure I tried That, and I'm pretty sure it didn't work, lol but I'm also pretty sure I can't really remember.

On another note. Sheik has some ridiculous jumping speed so I'm not sure you have time to get it off, but I have no way to test it right now so someone go find out.
 

FrostByte

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You can just spring out of SD if she keeps chasing you in the air. If the shiek is smart, she can tilt you out of most of your approaches. Sonic wins on the edgeguard though.
 

pirateguru

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You can just spring out of SD if she keeps chasing you in the air. If the shiek is smart, she can tilt you out of most of your approaches. Sonic wins on the edgeguard though.
Hmm I know for a fact that the spring will get canceled out from the bair but I didn't try using dair after it. the distance height I hope it would be high enough to make it have no lag after hitting the ground.
 

samper

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Shiek's Bair stays out for a good while doesn't it? I'd think you would have plenty of time to land a Dair if she isn't knocked back by the spring. Or maybe the spring would cancel the hit box on her kick or something without actually knocking her out of it since it doesn't hit multiple times (all speculation of course, no buddy to try this out with right now)
 

Tenki

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Vs Marth, continued

whats even funnier against marth. get him to high % and bthrow off the edge. dont be a nub, and time the edgehog perfectly such that it leaves marth no choice but to up-b through the ledge, and over the top. do the rapid-ledge climb (i cant remember which button it is) and bthrow/fsmash off again.

repeat until ragequit.

also works very well against zelda.

sonic can do this better than most others since if you misstime the ledgegrab and get stage spiked, sonic can easily recover from it while pretty much every other character dies. it might not work against pro marths, but everyone i play seems to fall for it again and again until they get edgehogged and simply dont recover.
rapid edge climb?
Tap up?
Back+jump+ff to stage?

sounds like a funny trick.
guys I think I found something funny vs Marth.

What's one of Marth's most feared approaches?

SH F-air.

What does Marth have to do to do it?

Jump.

What does Sonic have that disrupts jumps...?

Grounded Springs!

If you don't see it yet, a grounded spring can screw up Marth's (or anyone's) aerial approach lol.

You set up a spring in front of Sonic (maybe 2 character lengths away) so that Marth can't SH an F-air at you without being spring'd. Simple as that.

mindgaaames lolol
lol so I messed around more with this. I effectively shut down someone's Marth aerial game by keeping a spring near me most of the time. After enough F-air>cancel on spring or F-air > landing lag +punish, I pressured the Marth off of the F-air approach altogether those games.

Worth trying. I haven't fought a 'good' Marth with it, so I'm requesting that you take this tactic and try it out against Marth and other WOP-happy people (Wario Jiggles Kirby...) and post results of the trick here (eg, what they did to get around it, if it pressured them to avoid aerials... etc)
 

Browny

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after moar playtesting vs' a friends (a tourney goer vs me casual nub lol) i just cant see marth as a bad matchup. abusing the hell out of dash-shield grabs and properly spaced side-b so the high priority part goes through all of marths attacks, i find its always me doing the attacking while marth has to resort to camping which just makes it easier to grab him. and the fact they both kill at comparable %'s to each other is even better

or maybe its just me, but lucky doesnt seem to have too much trouble vs marth :/

--
im not thinking sonic has an advantage here, but i hardly think its even close to a 7:3 as the marth boards (shudder) suggest
 

pirateguru

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too be honest I can't really take on anyone else's idea of how a sonic fairs against other characters due to the fact that there are so many bad sonic players that they get the mindset that sonic sucks so bad. I mean it's like guaranteed for any good sonic player to hear someone say "Hey you have an actually good sonic" if they go play with people that don't know them.
 

Browny

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add to the fact most people are ******** and are still of the mindset than everyones a-a-a combo defeats all of sonics approaches (which consists of down b only), consider him a lightweight, gimpable recovery and so many other blatant misconspetions its no wonder everyone thinks hes a pushover. and thats so true pirate guru, many of the people i play comment on how theyve never played against a sonic who abuses all his advantages and doesnt give them half a second to breathe, they never knew what he was capable of. pity it seems the vast majority only play against homing attack spammers on wifi >_>
 

BlueTerrorist

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add to the fact most people are ******** and are still of the mindset than everyones a-a-a combo defeats all of sonics approaches (which consists of down b only), consider him a lightweight, gimpable recovery and so many other blatant misconspetions its no wonder everyone thinks hes a pushover. and thats so true pirate guru, many of the people i play comment on how theyve never played against a sonic who abuses all his advantages and doesnt give them half a second to breathe, they never knew what he was capable of. pity it seems the vast majority only play against homing attack spammers on wifi >_>
^^^QFT!!!
People need to stop being biased.
 

Tenki

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Vs Dk! Moar Info!! :d

DK

What to do:
- Gimp him, his recovery is bad.
- Punish him after a whiffed attack.
- He's another big target, so pressuring him won't be too hard if he messes up.
- Springs help in getting out of trouble.
- Side b will help alot due to the mindgames it allows you to do.

Do Not (The bad):
- Abuse spin dashes, he'll smack you out of them.
- His Down b stops any attempt at running circles around him.
- He has good spikes so be careful when your recovering.
- Range and priority, his tilts always come out fast and will stop anything you're doing.
- His neutral b has Super Armor when he lets out the attack. Only at full charge!
- Watch for his side b, if he hits you and you get buried, you're screwed. He's also heavy as well.
- He's more agile than he looks, so don't get overwhelmed by him.

General DK moves (not already mentioned) to watch out for:
- SH/FH double B-airs
- U-tilt juggle
- Cargo throw>Stage Spike
- Grounded up-B (similar use to Bowser's up-B)

Now... B-airs outprioritize pretty much everything Sonic's got, and U-tilt is annoying almost to the level of Sheik.

Alright! So after fighting a couple of DK's, I found his blindspots/weak points! The upper-front part of a grounded DK is really vulnerable, since his tilts can't reach it! The only thing you'd have to watch out for is D-smash. This means that Sonic's U-smash, SH-fair, and ASC work wonders on DK.
In midair, his only threatening move is B-air due to its low startup and ending lag, so if you stay in front of him, it cuts out one of his staple moves. Hoorah for Sonic's mobility!


Weakspots to those moves:
- He has punishable landing lag with his aerials.
- His U-tilt covers a quarter circle from the top to the back.
- Try not to get grabbed by a good DK when you're near the edges at 60+%
- Grounded up-B should be treated like MK Tornado, except for the fact that it has beautiful long ending lag (grab it!) and doesn't last nearly as long. You can beat it with D-airs or pretty much any other aerial (though I've only successfully done it with U-airs, D-airs, and B-airs)
 

ShadowLink84

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Hmm we need something for Olimar.

Olimar is one of those characters that really is going to test Sonic's ability to space properly as well as take advantage of openings and punish.

Mainly because Olimar's ground game is arguably the strongest in the game, to the point that even Snake has issues trying to approach.

His grabs stay out longer than others.
They are also as long as Link/Samus grab range without the cooldown time.
They also can lead into combos that can easily rack up damage.

All of his Smashes are dangerous, especially his Usmash.
The main reason for this is because Olimar can use a Usmash when he rolls, similar to the way one can glide toss. Not only that its over prioritizes the majority of Sonic's moves.

While his ground game is extremely strong, Sonic does have several advantages.
For one many of his moves remove pikmin so Olimar won't be capable of using the pikmin toss as a method of causing damage and slowing Sonic down. (since most characters have to stop and remove the pikmin and leave themselves open to attack or lose their advantages)

Up close Sonic can do harm to Olimar, once he breaks through Olimar's defenses Olimar will be hard pressed in order to get rid of Sonic. Once Olimar is off the stage Olimar is again at a disadvantage due to his poor recovery.

The match will be based upon who controls and who punishes the best.

anyone agree or disagree?

I find many Olimar's agree and that the matchup is most likely neutral if not a slight advantage for Olimar.
 

samper

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What about Olimar's tilts and jab, what kind of priority do those attacks have over Sonic? I've heard that few Olimars actually use those attacks since his smashes are so good, but it sure would suck to get around the smashes only to end up eating tilts and jabs if it turns out that those have really solid priority/combos/whatever else.

Oh, and I think his neutral air attack has this funky vacuum effect on it that pops you up (which, if it does, would probably leave you in a good position to get up smashed) and with the exception of forward tilt and back air I'm pretty sure I've always lost to it, so a short hop Nair could be really dangerous when you get in close (take that with a grain of salt though, its been awhile since I've fought an Olimar).
 

Camalange

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Alright, well I decided to try to start a Pikachu match up so here it goes
Pikachu's strongest moves are his Fsmash (fully charged=28%) Side-B (full=25%) Dsmash (full 21%)
He is a surprisingly strong character for such a small and cute appearance. He can be pretty dangerous on the field of battle (especially for Sonic) Out of all the match-ups, I believe Pikachu can be one of the hardest and he definitely has the most advantages so if you're forced to play against one with sonic, try using this advice.

Pikachu players are not afraid to spam a thunder bolt [B special (tbolt)] or their thunder (Down-B) So it's hard to get close to Pikachu, and it's hard to stay away from him without getting hit by a tbolt. These can also cancel both of your spin dashes, pretty much meaning you can't use them, and THAT'S NO GOOD. He also has better ground game than Sonic so here's what you have to do. Sonics airiels > Pikachu's airiels. Try to keep him in the air. When trying to approach Pika, the first thing he'll want to do is tbolt. If this occurs, sonic's fsmash, ftilt, and dash-attack can cancel one of his tbolts. Also try shorthopping+airdodge over them, or just plain dodge roll. (Also, even though they can be canceled, a spindash into a jump + dair can work quite nicely in an approach attack situation.) Once you have approached him, GRAB AND THROW HIM UPWARDS. Grabs work great. BE CAREFUL THOUGH. When starting a grab, Pika may try to perform a thunder, if you're fast enough, it won't work, but if you're off by the slightest second, the animation will stop, but the thunder will still strike, breaking the grab. Thunder is a real b*tch because the damage may not be that high (10-17%) but it's a freakin long attack, hard to stop, and has great priority and range. Once in the air, start to uair. Try to keep juggling him as long as you can! Make sure to mix in Fairs (high priority to pika) and bair are good for knocking away) spring+uair can work as a great kill too, but as always, beware the thunder. When Pikachu is off the stage, he has two options for recovery.
1) SideB (skullbash)
2) UpB (Which can be used twice in different directions)
The best way to kill is by simply bairing or fairing pikachu too far off stage for return. Pikachu is light weight so this can be easily performed once he's at like 75-90% damage. Another way to kill is by gimping. Hey, if pikachu isn't ashamed of spamming, why should you be ashamed for gimping? (some think it's a cheap kill) anyhow, you're not going to get too many of your kills this way, but it's great if pikachu is directly vertical and underneath the stage edge. All he can do is upB (will prob either shoot straight up, or go diagonally left first, then diagonally right to grab ledge) By edgehogging this option is gone and will lead to his imminent death. Also bair or fair spiking pika into the side of the stage works very well!
Now say the tables are turned and its YOU trying to recover. Although sonic has amazing recovery and is pretty much impossible to gimp, pika will stand at the edge and ***** his thunder. When using upB, get the timing correctly so you can pass right through the thunder with an airdodge

Now I'm kinda skipping around a bit, but let's chat about the ground game. Pika's ground game pretty much owns Sonic's. His dair almost has kind of a vaccum effect that if you're too close you get stuck in the center of an electrical spin. Fsmash has starting lag, but has wide range and great power. An approach for either of these moves are tilts. ftilt works wonders. Spacing is the key element in the ground game. There is one spot that beats pika's ground smashes and thats directly infront of his fsmash. When those little cheeks of his start charging electricity, dodge roll BACKWARDS. You will be just out of reach for this move, and a quick fsmash (recommend cstick) will get a good hit. This also works well on thunder(be more cautious with thunder though. that move is hard to analyze seeing how it lasts so long and pretty much protects him from all angles) but there is a point where it's safe to hit him (hard to explain but you will know when fighting)
When in close combat, a dodge in place+ smash/tilt works well on tilts or quick smashes performed by pika. Even a good neutral A+A+A combo is effective, the only problem is Pika's neutral A which is almost as bad as being hit with a fan so don't get caught in that

This will probably be a long, tough battle, but it's not impossible to win! It can be done if you play smart.

Well I think I said all that I could say...I hope this helps, and please fix any errors I made or add anything to it. I think that this can be a good start though.
 

ROOOOY!

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Agreed, you can't spot dodge his dsmash or anything, because it just stays out too long. Honestly, bait him into using it and it's the easiest move to punish in the world evar. Same for downB, infact.
 

Tenki

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Agreed, you can't spot dodge his dsmash or anything, because it just stays out too long. Honestly, bait him into using it and it's the easiest move to punish in the world evar. Same for downB, infact.
Actually, I noticed that the end of Pikachu's D-smash has rather low priority/electric...stuff.

Also, Down-B is not too punishable, afterwards, anyway. He has pretty much no lag after the attack graphic disappears, so you could be running into a dsmash.

Also, don't forget QAC - Pikachu can use it to escape bad situations just as Sonic can use spring. Except he can aim it, and he has startup lag. It's got... quite some potential ;_;

Btw, a legit question: Which of Sonic's attacks outprioritize Pikachu's forward-B?
 

Camalange

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Btw, a legit question: Which of Sonic's attacks outprioritize Pikachu's forward-B?
That's a good question...I honestly don't know if there's a move that can...I must look into it now!
But there's always spot dodge :p Or maybe spring...
 

Tenki

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That's a good question...I honestly don't know if there's a move that can...I must look into it now!
But there's always spot dodge :p Or maybe spring...
Spring works :p

just for fun, I planted springs at a certain distance away from the edge, so when my brother tried to come back with side-B, he'd land on it or be forced into a Sonic Pawnch.

BUT... I'm looking more for an edgeguarding attack that'll knock him away or make him think twice about it.
 

TwinkleToes

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Well, you could just side-b and try to net yourself a free combo right? I imagine that alone has quite a few possibilities. But more than that I would probably just bair him.
 
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