Sega Vs. Everyone (Zamus and Marth entry complete)

[Napilopez]

Sonic's Uair outprioritizes god if its spaced right

And yes, Yoshi's egg does have quite nice priority.

 

[MalcolmM]

I actually jus played PRiDE's yoshi in tourney yesterday as sonic. He says the last 2 tournaments in a row he has lost to sonic so I guess sonic has equal footing if not an advantadge against yoshi.


Good things about the matchup
-The spring can knock him out of his second jump..
-One of the many hits on the fair can knock him out of his second jump
-His OOS options are limited so pressuring his shield is alot safer
-ASC is basically unpunishable if you do it right infront of him
-Dash attack somehow slips under yoshi's Bair
-While hes not an 100% predictable character, you know that if yoshi is jumping without his back facing you chances are hes not going for an aerial as his fair is similar to snakes.
-His kill moves are as predictable as sonic's
-Yoshi rolls alot since he has bad OOS options so Dsmash is awesome.


Bad things about the matchup:
-Spring to anything = Down B for yoshi
-He has a nasty grab release chain grab on Sonic (I tried every type of DI and couldnt escape)
-His Bair is amazing. Its his most common approach. It can poke shields has multiple hits and combos into other moves. It also out prioritizes alot of sonics moves.
-Hes very difficult to edgeguard. In theory it sounds easy to stop yoshi, but a smart player will make use of the eggs and then use his second jump. Or just recover way above the stage to be safe.
-His jabs and tilts are fast and have nice range + priority against sonic.
-His nair is instant and often breaks any aerial rushdowns u may have in mind.

Yoshi is such an odd matchup. Not just for sonic, but for all characters. Hes really good at racking up damage but has alot of difficulty getting his kill moves off. His main ones are his up-air and up-smash. The once beastly down smash is more of a spacing move now. His nair and egg roll can kill @ higher %s. But in general sonic's speed and ability to avoid the kill moves seem to play a big part in the matchup. Yoshi's hate pressure and sonic is all about pressure so they may dread the matchup. But that grab release thing might be able to give yoshi a free upsmash so that would make his kill moves far more reliable. Im not entirely too sure since PRiDE CP'd Battlefield and the grab release left me on the platform rather than falling into another grab. But yea it felt pretty awkward and it was a tough fight, but for sonic (since basically every matchup is a tough one) it was defintely one of his better matchups.

 

[ShadowLink84]

And another possibility: Sonic F-air vs MK's tornado (middle-front section?) = Sonic wins? Someone find the exact situation for this, because I beat an MK out of an aerial tornado with F-air, and aerial tornados are when he has most priority.

Yes but it has to be done during the first half of the Fair otherwise the Fair loses its priority apparently and he gets caught up by the tornado.

YOSHI

Discuss.

SAH YES SAH!

>_> if you need any experience vs a Yoshi, check AiB. That place is full of Yoshis, seriously.

Currently I think the best Yoshi right now is Green Ace. I swear to God I have never met such a good Yoshi. I also play him daily. Really helps me in my spacing.

Yoshi Tongue <= Wario bite?
Yoshi retreating pivot Grab <= Olimar grab?

Nope.
Actually the tongue is much less reliable than the wario bite because of the somewhat narrow hitbox. That and the only time it would be usefulis upclose where Yoshi is better off doing a grab, or jabs.
The retreating pivot grab is similar to Olimar's grab but I thinkit is shorter, doesn't stay out as long and may be a tad bit slower.
I've never gotten caught by it though since I like canceling.

also, dash attack has high priority, and double jump has SAF, though part of my problem (personally) is misreading his jump distance and length of SAF, or are there moves that can break through the DJ SAF, similar to Snake's up-B?

Its not SAF.
Super armor frames are unbreakable.
yoshi's are juggernaut frames like Snake's.
Depending on how much knockback and amount of damage Yoshi has received (thus adding to the knockback) you can break Yoshi out of his double jump similar to how you break Snake's (though snake's are not as strong apparently).
Thejuggernaut frames appears as soon as that little ripple from the second jump disappears, anytime during its appearance he has no juggernaut frames.

They also end just after he reaches the peak of the jumps height.

Didn't get to test much, but his egg throw seems to have good priority as well, and I'm not sure if Sonic has a move (that isn't invincible) that can break through an egg throw and hit Yoshi.

Actually he has a good number but the timing is a bit difficult.
The Dair can break it anytime while its being activated as does the Nair when its first activated.

His Usmash defeats spring projectiles, and unfortunately, spring projectiles don't even clang with it, so you can't catch him offguard in idle frames like you can to ZSS or Zelda, since theirs clang with falling springs.

quite an annoyance =[

His Fsmash is also faster and his jab comes out so quickly it can actually interrupt your jab.Eggroll is nothing you can cancel it with your own attack then Ftilt so that you'll outrange him.
Uairing him to death is hard to due to his high aerial speed.
be really careful when recovering because he can edgeguard better than Wario with his attacks especially with that Nair of his because it has priority like that of Luigi's.

And its a sex kick, that alone means danger.

Really stick to the ground, you can harass him and place him in the air where you are gauranteed to have the advantage.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Bad news!! and a change to happen for the thread to keep order

While updating the Zelda section, my cpu messed up but the strangest thing happened. All the matchups was deleted except for the top ones. DDD can easily be done but, the others are going to take much longer. I guess it's a mixed blessing, alot of them needed to be up to date anyways.

Well, I got an idea to make this alot more accurate and more quicker. Discussions on match-ups NEED to be done here. We will be going in alphabetical order so everyone help out so it can be better than the original. It's going by the same format and vids will be included. Well we should start with Kirby, what do you say?

 

[Camalange]

Don't forget Captain Falcon, Game & Watch, and Jigglypuff. They appear to be skipped.

 

[Tenki]

We didn't have entries for them in the first place, I think.

Anyway, Kirby can be an annoyance. Watch out for aerial hammers, smashes, and down-B's when you're high up.

I've fought a few, and I don't really have a set game against Kirby yet, but I thought of a 'kirbycide' counter, well, depending on their reactions.

If the Kirby is trying to suicide both of you, you can break out then spring to recover.

If Kirby spits you out or tries to recover, you can leech off his jumps and use homing attack to get back up/stage spike/counter, then spring, if need be.

 

[Deathwish238]

i really have trouble against zelda and pikachu...i got 3rd in a small tourney in a game store by my house and the match that really gave me trouble was pikachu MY GOD! spam's n-B i have to jump to avoid. i get close and try to do something and depending on what i do the guy either d-B lightining bolt or side stepped/shielded to his broken d-smash rinse and repeat -_- thats kinda how zelda works too. so anybody have some tips to see if i find out something i haven't tried yet thanks.

 

[Tenki]

bait with movements and cancels.

It's been mentioned before, but Sonic outprioritizes most of Pikachu's aerials, so in an air vs air battle, Sonic will win. F-air outprioritizes thunderbolts altogether, and side/down-B tend to clang or eat projectiles (at least in the air).

But Pikachu will try to get to the ground, so to counter the problem with grounded Pikachu, you'll have to rely on baits.

Towards the end ofPikachu's D-smash, you can actually hit Pikachu out of it, so you can do some baits with move cancels, like run > charge side-B for a few frames > cancel and prepare a counter attack for d-smash, or ASC cancel.

Also, as stated in Kuja's guide, don't forget you can use Homing Attack to punish laggy moves, like if Pikachu starts to spam neutral B, jump and do a quick HA. If you wanna bait a D-smash, do a jump at him, and stop the momentum with a Homing Attack. Some Pikachus will reflexively do a no-charge dsmash, so you can delay HA so it hits him during his d-smash's vulnerability frames.

Just be careful and try not to reflexively use springs to escape Pikachu juggles, or if you do it on purpose, be ready to airdodge thunders.

@.@ yeah, you basically have to camp grounded Pikachu and be aggressive vs aerial Pikachu.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Blue you need to correct the DDD thing. He only has Superarmor ont he way up. Once he reaches the peak and starts to fall there is no super armor.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

What's the point in this topic if everyone just makes Match-up topics anyway?

 

[BlueTerrorist]

What's the point in this topic if everyone just makes Match-up topics anyway?

Umm they shouldn't. As I and possibly many others said, all discussions about match-ups should be in this thread. People don't read that's all. I'll be updating again, possibly after 4th of July weekend.

 

[Carbo]

Hmm, no one made a match up on Snake yet? I'll do an attempt on it, first time I ever try a match up. Spent some time battling him and this is pretty much my advice.

Do's:
- Gimp him, even though he has a powerful recovery with super armor on the startup, it might be necessary considering his overall matchup.
- AIRPLAY IS OF HIGH PRIORITY, Snake will be covering your ground play almost completely, try getting him in the air, Sonic beats Snake in aerial combat.
- Abuse your Spins without getting predictable, Snake's close quarter moves will downright put Sonic down and out. Using Sonic's spin you can gain an advantage by going from a farther range.
- Sonic is probably the best player to take advantage of Snake's grenades as they are practically useless against him, using his speed you can zoom by and snatch them, and use them against him, even if you dont manage to pick it up you'll be able to avoid it easy using your speed.
- As mentioned above, SPINS ARE YOUR BEST FRIEND IN THIS FIGHT, they will neutralize Snake's remote controlled missiles and by spin jumping you will be able to take the fight directly into midair, this is where Snake loses his advantage. UpAir and FrontAir is of high priority.
- Homing Attack is surprisingly extremely handy in this fight, it can be used to attack Snake from a distance.
- Locate Snake's mines, both the remote controlled ones and the ones that set off on impact. They will neutralize Sonic's means of gameplay and will be a pain if you're predictable.
- UpSmash. It can be charged from a distance similair to Snake's and it will juggle him up in the air where you yet again will be able to take advantage of him.

Dont's:
- STAY ON THE GROUND FOR TOO LONG, seriously, Snake holds the groundplay hands down, beware of his remote bombs.
- CONSTANT AIRPLAY, even though Sonic holds the air better than Snake, he can down you if you get to happy with it. His remote mines can be sticked onto you and he has a devastating Meteor Smash.
- Stay close to him, Snake's close quarter combating outmatches yours.
- Grabs, although Sonic's grabs may have high priority, one missed grab will easily be punished.
- Smash Attacks, just like the grabs, Snake will easily punish a missed smash attack. The only recommended exception would be the UpSmash which like Snake's will glide for a distance.
- Snake's impact mines are extremely tough to see and rather powerful, if you dont locate one you will be easily punished by your hit and run tactics.
- Most important: Dont get predictable.. Sonic's hit and run combating style tactics are destroyed thanks to Snake, mostly due to his mines as they're by no doubt the most effective and the most annoying thing about the match-up.

Opinion:
For some reason I never really understood how Snake would stand out in the Smash universe, now that its been obviously told how Kojima begged Snake to be in the game it seems as if Sakurai has this strange obsession of pleasing these people too much when needed and thus literally trying to make Snake live up to his whole ''Legendary Mercenary'' thing which is something I never understood cause I never played the MGS games, but now I get what he means cause Snake is just that much of a broken character in Brawl. Personally I think that along with Luigi and Meta Knight, he is most likely Sonic's toughest match-up to exist. Sonic's hit and run tactics are literally crushed thanks to Snake's mines, and his overall ground play will definitely put Sonic in big trouble. Your spin attacks are your most effective tactics in this battle and your airplay, but it needs to vary alot considering using just two means of tactics will make you predictable in a matter of time. Snake will by no doubt be a tough one to defeat.
--------------------------------------------------------

Yeah first timer for me. Need to get used to it : l

 

[Umby]

I really don't like having the DOs and DON'Ts format. A general analysis in paragraph format with pros and cons listed seems more traditional.


And yeah, I'm just traditionalist is all.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If I have to say this one more time I swear my head is going to explode.

It is NOT ****ING SUPER ARMOR!
IT IS HEAVY ARMOR!

GOD**** PEOPLE GET IT STRAIGHT! *sighs*
Seriously the games been out over 4months and people still can't get the terms right.

 

[Carbo]

If I have to say this one more time I swear my head is going to explode.

It is NOT ****ING SUPER ARMOR!
IT IS HEAVY ARMOR!

GOD**** PEOPLE GET IT STRAIGHT! *sighs*
Seriously the games been out over 4months and people still can't get the terms right.

Sorry about that, Im not really extremely familiar with all those many brawl terms, I just know about a half of em. I didnt know what to call it until I saw people using Super Armor in previous posts so I used it.

EDIT: SmashWiki lists it as Super Armor so unless the editors were given false information its gotta be right.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Do's and Don'ts also tend to get really general and vague in their advice. I agree that we should have people just give more thorough write ups for each.

 

[Deathwish238]

bait with movements and cancels.

It's been mentioned before, but Sonic outprioritizes most of Pikachu's aerials, so in an air vs air battle, Sonic will win. F-air outprioritizes thunderbolts altogether, and side/down-B tend to clang or eat projectiles (at least in the air).

But Pikachu will try to get to the ground, so to counter the problem with grounded Pikachu, you'll have to rely on baits.

Towards the end ofPikachu's D-smash, you can actually hit Pikachu out of it, so you can do some baits with move cancels, like run > charge side-B for a few frames > cancel and prepare a counter attack for d-smash, or ASC cancel.

Also, as stated in Kuja's guide, don't forget you can use Homing Attack to punish laggy moves, like if Pikachu starts to spam neutral B, jump and do a quick HA. If you wanna bait a D-smash, do a jump at him, and stop the momentum with a Homing Attack. Some Pikachus will reflexively do a no-charge dsmash, so you can delay HA so it hits him during his d-smash's vulnerability frames.

Just be careful and try not to reflexively use springs to escape Pikachu juggles, or if you do it on purpose, be ready to airdodge thunders.

@.@ yeah, you basically have to camp grounded Pikachu and be aggressive vs aerial Pikachu.

thanks a lot u have given me helpful information. i thunder bolts are pika's neutral B right?? i don't know the exact name. and its true what u say about baiting and punishing becuz if i rush too much when pika's on the ground i get owned i have to be less predictable and bait more...its hard tho im not going to lie but you gave me a couple of ideas that would really work thanks a lot tenki lol

 

[Tenki]

I played a low-lag (yesss cable internet is ftw) match against Anthers, who's a Pikachu main.

There was one thing that psyched me out and caught me off-guard:

Quick attack cancel.

it's one of the things I'm working on right now- learn the range of QAC. He got me good a few times with it :[

Not many Pikachu players you meet can pull it off, but in the case that you fight a good Pikachu player, you might want to watch out for it. :[

 

[da K.I.D.]

the pikachu player in my area ***** with QACs. he bounces around more than my sonic does

i had to pull lucario out to deal with him

 

[Tenki]

DI and Steak.

On a side note, I can confirm that you can DI out of Pikachu's D-smash pretty easily lol.

You can quickly tap up+CstickUp 2-3 times and get out almost immediately, or you can DI towards Pikachu and get sent out of it.

I got to mess around with SDI with my brother lol.

Some other funny crap:
vs Ganondorf's SH D-air off-stage spike- quickly and repeatedly tap toward the level on the control stick and c-stick and you can float yourself onto the level, THEN get spiked. It's too funny in 1/4 speed+timer, but it's still possible in normal speed =]

Also, it's not Sonic specific, but I tried (with timer and 1/4 speed) to take a SH D-air while standing on the edge and doing DI to get under the ledge, but it won't allow you to go under the ledge :[

You still get sent flying upwards though lol.

Also, 1/4 speed, smartbombs (spawn them every few seconds) + SDI = Sonic 3 Debug Mode-style fun. Make a custom stage and float through as many bombs as you can. hahaha...ha.. I'm stupid.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sorry about that, Im not really extremely familiar with all those many brawl terms, I just know about a half of em. I didnt know what to call it until I saw people using Super Armor in previous posts so I used it.

EDIT: SmashWiki lists it as Super Armor so unless the editors were given false information its gotta be right.

Super Armor= no flinching at all

Heavy armor= you get hit with something with a strong enough knock back. You will flinch.

GO and test it yourself.
Have Snake ^B and the Bair him as Sonic.

I gaurantee he gets knocked out of it.
Super armor it is not.

Quite frankly take my advice, I bet I could make smashwiki twice as good as the fools writing it up currently.
Thats the main reason I was issued, because I know where you got that idea from.


Frankly put DON'T LISTEN TO SMASH WIKI!

 

[Umby]

Surely not all of SmashWiki is that bad.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Super Armor= no flinching at all

Heavy armor= you get hit with something with a strong enough knock back. You will flinch.

GO and test it yourself.
Have Snake ^B and the Bair him as Sonic.

I gaurantee he gets knocked out of it.
Super armor it is not.

Quite frankly take my advice, I bet I could make smashwiki twice as good as the fools writing it up currently.
Thats the main reason I was issued, because I know where you got that idea from.


Frankly put DON'T LISTEN TO SMASH WIKI!

What? Incorrect info on the internet?


Wait. Then Dair DOESN'T spike? T_T

 

[Browny]

smashwiki is good for lulz, just searching random facts is always good for a laugh

Wolf: Steep learning curve

what else needs to be said?

 

[ROOOOY!]

It's cos it can be edited by anyone, right?
Someone should contribute a winning steak line into the Sonic part.
Seriously, I'd love you forever.

 

[IceDX]

How do you guys deal with a wolf that just spams lasers and f smashes and whenever u get close just uses the reflector than smashes u again?????

I just can find a way to easily get out of that... not saying i cant win agaist it but its anyoying.......

 

[Deathwish238]

I played a low-lag (yesss cable internet is ftw) match against Anthers, who's a Pikachu main.

There was one thing that psyched me out and caught me off-guard:

Quick attack cancel.

it's one of the things I'm working on right now- learn the range of QAC. He got me good a few times with it :[

Not many Pikachu players you meet can pull it off, but in the case that you fight a good Pikachu player, you might want to watch out for it. :[

and yeah i went to a local tourney and the guy that i lost to did those QAC (this is the first time i heard of the actual name) and it caught me off guard too but i had seen him use it before in other matches so when he did it to me, he tried to be cute and hit me with it and i just spammed my D-smash and eventually hit him hard...lol he never tried it again lol.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Ice, try hyphen smashing or DAC'ing that at closer range. I find it helps against lots of stuff... grabs, projectiles, d-tilts... etc.

 

[Umby]

Vs. Wolf I just shield dash, unless it's online, in which case I short hop in place to force him to approach. If he doesn't, then I spinshot -> bair him from behind.

 

[IceDX]

Ice, try hyphen smashing or DAC'ing that at closer range. I find it helps against lots of stuff... grabs, projectiles, d-tilts... etc.

Thanks For the Tip, I dont use the DAC as much as i should..

Vs. Wolf I just shield dash, unless it's online, in which case I short hop in place to force him to approach. If he doesn't, then I spinshot -> bair him from behind.

Thant what i usually do but i shield dash i usually get nocked out of it With a grab or a
f smash, SpinShot usually works but it gets predictable after a cuple times...

 

[Camalange]

So yeah I just remembered something...before all the matchups got messed up...I saved them onto a word document so I have the missing ones. I'll PM them to Blue Terrorist because It's a lot of info for just one post.

 

[Umby]

I say we should still have a character matchup discussion of the week just to get extensive collective opinions to make better analysis.

 

[FrostByte]

Seconded .

 

[MalcolmM]

I say we should still have a character matchup discussion of the week just to get extensive collective opinions to make better analysis.

I like the idea. Someone start it up =\

 

[BlueTerrorist]

I say we should still have a character matchup discussion of the week just to get extensive collective opinions to make better analysis.

Seconded .

I like the idea. Someone start it up =\

Your wish is my command . Go support the thread, I'll be doing Snake and MK first they're more important.

 

[Tenki]

We're like ... months behind the other chara boards.

How about we start up 2-3 threads each week? lol.

I mean, people should have enough experience vs good character mainers to contribute their information to the matchup discussions by now.

Also, 1 vote in abolishing do's and don'ts and going toward a more paragraph/list overview ;p

 

[ROOOOY!]

Firmly agree with Tenki.
Doing a character a week will take over half a year.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Yeah, screw this do's and don't's system. I can't even pluralize it correctly.

Plus, as I said before, the information tends to get more superficial and general when you bullet-point it.

 

[Anthinus]

I agree with the others... Kill the "do & don't" stuff...
I think I can post to contribute with this thread with characters I play against a lot (mains of the people of my team).
I hope this discutions begins soon...

 

[algandar88]

So will this thread b done ove again?......i got experience exp wit link ,ike, ddd nd samus