Sega Vs. Everyone (Zamus and Marth entry complete)

[Super_Sonic8677]

Algandar, you're Algar online aren't you?

No more do's and don't's. Put it in Paragraph form.

 

[algandar88]

yes ...yes i am sure thing i kinda dont like it that way n e hoo

 

[TwinkleToes]

Metaknight entry (edit 1):

Metaknight (MK) is one of the most common characters you will encounter whether in friendlies or tournament play and for good reason. His attacks come out fast and have good range/damage/knock-back, his ground movement is fast, his aerial movement is decent, and he has multiple jumps (not to mention 3 b-move recovery options and a glide). Also, a recently discovered infinite stall for MK has emerged (more on that later).

One of MK's only true weaknesses is his light weight which makes him easy to KO on both the sides and over the top of the level. For this reason, you should generally play against him on stages that have closer blast-lines on the sides and top. Even though this also means that your recovery will not be fully utilized either, your extra heaviness will give you an edge. However, stages that have deeper bottoms (such as battlefield) are to your advantage and not his. These are considerations mainly for tournament play, but they can mean the difference between victory and defeat-- so, consider them carefully.

The actual fighting is somewhat less straightforward and considerably more difficult. At the outset you should realize that your goal will be to evade and frustrate your opponent and seize opportunities as they arise. Attempting an aggressive play-style against any decent MK will lead to significant punishment as your ground approaches will be easily out-ranged and your aerial game will likely get dismantled. If you happen to meet the occasional MK that prefers to play defensively, your best plan of attack will be a mixture of running shield-grabs and hyphen smashes, and reverse aerial-rushed (RAR'd) bairs. Doing a dash attack to MK's face is not advised, nor is approaching with any of your short range aerials for the simple reason that MK can smash/aerial you out of them without even trying.

However, it is safer to assume that MK will be playing aggressively against you, and so you will instead be looking for holes in his game and counter-attacking. This means longer games with a lot of running around, empty short-hopping, and general evasion. One of the main opportunities that you will be seizing will be the punishment of any and all of MK's b-moves. The two most common moves you are likely to see will be MK's neutral-b (for damage racking) and his up-b (for finishing). The main reason you will see these so often is because they come out fast and leave the MK player with a feeling of invulnerability. To prevent these from being used against you with impunity, you must punish every b-move you can.

Neutral-b

• Can be broken with any correctly placed aerial
• If timed right, f-smash, d-smash, f-tilt all out-prioritize
• Springing can safely break it 100% of the time
• Homing attack can work
• Spin-dashes can nullify but may result in you taking damage as well

Up-b

• Springs and dairs will be somewhat effective in stopping it
• The most difficult part is avoiding the initial hit, but when baited, the glide period is vulnerable to anything and can be aggressively chased
• Either bait the up-b by getting in close and dodging/shielding or be very mindful of staying out of its range

Side-b

• Defeated by fair
• Spin-dash can trade hits
• Extremely laggy wind-down that can be easily punished by almost anything

Down-b

• Only attacks behind MK
• When done over the ground, the invincibility/invisibility period can be indefinitely extended (known to as "infinite caping")
• Vulnerable to shield grabbing, any aerial attack, and runs the risk of MK suiciding.
• Infinite caping moves about as fast as MK runs
• Easily avoided by running to the edge MK was facing when he initiated the attack or by edge-hogging

What should be more intimidating is MK's air and ground game. Spotting weaknesses here is by no means intuitive and requires one to have either played as or against him extensively. Still, these weaknesses do certainly exist. Prime among these weaknesses is vulnerability to power shielding/shield grabbing. This is particularly effective against MK's air game as he lacks any move that is a continuous-multiple hit or good shield eater. His only way to counter your repeated shielding is one of his b-moves, and as stated previously these are all punishable. After you shield/dodge/evade his attack you should immediately counter-attack with whatever can reach him fastest. With the exception of uair, MK's aerials cannot be spammed fast enough to block a counter attack. This is because while MK's hit-boxes come out fast and leave fast, the attacks finish slower. So even when MK looks like he is ready to attack you he is still in an active state and unable to do anything other than DI. This is important both in finding openings and in continuing pseudo-combos where MK will attempt to counter-attack you.

If you get the knack of this you should begin to shut down MK's aerial game. Should he attempt to approach you more on the ground, counter by using your f-tilt or, as noted before, continuous evasion. If he begins to use only his ground game, you should note a few things. First, taking MK's back is not nearly as useful as it is against other characters. His down-smash is only vulnerable in the front since it finishes immediately after the back hit-box disappears. Second, MK's attacks are easily spot-dodged. Third, his forward smash and tilt have a rather poor angle that is very vulnerable to aerials/aerial spin dashes (ASC). If you notice forward/down smash spamming you can use ASC and aerials to counter it easily. Always be ready for an up-smash though. If MK instead does an up-smash you need to smash DI immediately out of it before that final hit connects. If you can do this consistently, you need not worry so much about the few times his up-smash will hit you.

As a final note, MK's strong recovery makes him difficult to gimp. If you want to keep Metaknight from getting to the edge you need to consider 2 things: how/when to edge-hog, MKs recover radius.

If you can, you should pressure the latter by using your spin dash jump and possibly using a dair or homing attack. This will be the time he is most vulnerable to your gimps since he cannot use his b moves without suiciding. The first option is what you'll be sticking with more though. MK has laggy landing that's pretty easily punishable at the very least by a dashing grab, possibly you could combo him or smash him. For that reason though, most MKs are going to go for the edge, you should try to predict this and edge hog accordingly.

 

[Tenki]

Metaknight entry (now with sentence structuring!):

Metaknight (MK) is one of the most common characters you will encounter whether in friendlies or tournament play and for good reason. His attacks come out fast and have good range/damage/knock-back, his ground movement is fast, his aerial movement is decent, and he has multiple jumps (not to mention 3 b-move recovery options and a glide). Also, a recently discovered infinite stall for MK has emerged (more on that later).

One of MK's only true weaknesses is his light weight which makes him easy to KO on both the sides and over the top of the level. For this reason, you should generally play against him on stages that have closer blast-lines on the sides and top. Even though this also means that your recovery will not be fully utilized either, your extra heaviness will give you an edge. However, stages that have deeper bottoms (such as battlefield) are to your advantage and not his. These are considerations mainly for tournament play, but they can mean the difference between victory and defeat-- so, consider them carefully.

The actual fighting is somewhat less straightforward and considerably more difficult. At the outset you should realize that your goal will be to evade and frustrate your opponent and seize opportunities as they arise. Attempting an aggressive play-style against any decent MK will lead to significant punishment as your ground approaches will be easily out-ranged and your aerial game will likely get dismantled. If you happen to meet the occasional MK that prefers to play defensively, your best plan of attack will be a mixture of running shield-grabs and hyphen smashes, and reverse aerial-rushed (RAR'd) bairs. Doing a dash attack to MK's face is not advised, nor is approaching with any of your short range aerials for the simple reason that MK can smash/aerial you out of them without even trying.

However, it is safer to assume that MK will be playing aggressively against you, and so you will instead be looking for holes in his game and counter-attacking. This means longer games with a lot of running around, empty short-hopping, and general evasion. One of the main opportunities that you will be seizing will be the punishment of any and all of MK's b-moves. The two most common moves you are likely to see will be MK's neutral-b (for damage racking) and his up-b (for finishing). The main reason you will see these so often is because they come out fast and leave the MK player with a feeling of invulnerability. To prevent these from being used against you with impunity, you must punish every b-move you can.

For the neutral-b, Sonic can use any aerial to break it. If approached with it from a distance it is also possible to break it with a forward/down smash or with a forward tilt. This is trickier to do when MK is close, and should you find yourself sucked into it, you should quickly DI out of it and spring. Springing is one of the safest ways of breaking the tornado but should not be used for the obvious reasons that it is weak and has little knock-back. Additionally, it is better to save the spring for gimping if at all possible. You can also use a spin dash (less effective) or a homing attack (start-up lag means you need some distance) to counter.

For the up-b, you can attempt to drop a spring or dair if being chased from below. If it is being used right next to you and you dodge it, just about anything you can think of will be able to counter it. The best things to use are spin dashes, fairs, and shield grabs. It is very likely that the most difficult part in dealing with MK's up-b is going to be avoiding the initial hit. For this reason, whenever you approach a MK you should keep your spacing exact or be ready to dodge past him.

Less commonly you will also see side-b and down-b from MK. Side-b can be completely defeated by fair. You should particularly note this when a MK is recovering from far below the level as his side-b can give him greater vertical recovery distance. It is also possible to use your spin-dash; however, the chances of you getting hit as well are high so it is better to avoid spin countering. Most notable is the extremely laggy period MK endures right after he uses his side-b. If you can avoid getting hit with it, a running grab should be yours for the taking.

His down-b is mostly worthless, but there are some key points of interest. The first thing you should note is that MK will always attack behind himself after the move finishes. The next thing you should note is that if done over the ground, the invincibility/invisibility period can be indefinitely extended (referred to as "infinite caping"). Regardless, the move is vulnerable to shield grabbing, any aerial attack, and runs the risk of MK suiciding. Given that you can run faster than it can move, you should run to the edge that MK was facing when he initiated the attack. He will not be able to hit you without going over the edge.

What should be more intimidating is MK's air and ground game. Spotting weaknesses here is by no means intuitive and requires one to have either played as or against him extensively. Still, these weaknesses do certainly exist. Prime among these weaknesses is vulnerability to power shielding/shield grabbing. This is particularly effective against MK's air game as he lacks any move that is a continuous-multiple hit or good shield eater. His only way to counter your repeated shielding is one of his b-moves, and as stated previously these are all punishable. After you shield/dodge/evade his attack you should immediately counter-attack with whatever can reach him fastest. With the exception of uair, MK's aerials cannot be spammed fast enough to block a counter attack. This is because that while MK's attacks come out fast and leave fast, they do not finish fast. So even when MK looks like he is ready to attack you he is still in an active state and unable to do anything other than DI. This is important both in finding openings and in continuing pseudo-combos where MK will attempt to counter-attack you.

If you get the knack of this you should begin to shut down MK's aerial game. He may then try to approach you more on the ground, but this can be countered by using your f-tilt or, as noted before, continuous evasion. If he begins to use only his ground game, you should note a few things. First, taking MK's back is not nearly as useful as it is against other characters. His down-smash is only vulnerable in the front since it finishes immediately after the back hit-box disappears. Second, MK's attacks are easily spot-dodged. Third, his forward smash and tilt have a rather poor angle that is very vulnerable to aerials/aerial spin dashes (ASC). If you notice forward/down smash spamming you can use ASC and aerials to counter it easily. Always be ready for an up-smash though. If MK instead does an up-smash you need to smash DI immediately out of it before that final hit connects. If you can do this consistently, you need not worry so much about the few times his up-smash will hit you.

As a final note, MK's strong recovery makes him difficult to gimp. If you want to keep Metaknight from getting to the edge you need to consider 2 things: how/when to edge-hog, MKs recover radius.

If you can, you should pressure the latter by using your spin dash jump and possibly using a dair or homing attack. This will be the time he is most vulnerable to your gimps since he cannot use his b moves without suiciding.

The first option is what you'll be sticking with more though. MK has laggy landing that's pretty easily punishable at the very least by a dashing grab, possibly you could combo him or smash him. For that reason though, most MKs are going to go for the edge, you should try to predict this and edge hog accordingly.


I kind of got carried away-- so if you guys have any ideas for what should be edited/cut-out so that this becomes a quicker read please feel free to post.

Bullet-point the move vs move analysis- it'll save lots of space.

Also, point out that Metaknight's glide is actually one of the points that Sonic can play aggressively against-
U-air, N-air, F-air, and ASC all outprioritize the glide attack.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

n/m

................................

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Attention!!!

Read this VVV

Ok back on subject, I'm already aware of the new tech with MK so don't worry. Now as far as the match-up thread is concerned, I'm already working on that. All match-ups will be re-written, but do know that it's gonna take time I don't want anything false in there. It's my fault, I should have put up a disclaimer to let everyone know. I should have Metaknight done later on tomorrow.

You'll like the new format, something like this:

Match-up analysis (Now without the Do's and Don'ts, just straight to the point)
other people's analysis
Vids of fighting said character (This was a very popular idea so it's here to stay)

As for weekly discussions, it's almost the end of the week. There's no point in making another right now, but if you guys want more than one character to discuss, then I'll host said characters next week early sunday. I'll host 3 a week tops, they better be active or I'm just going to host only one again. I'm starting it at the beginning of the week so that there will be time to discuss and also bring anybody who plays that character there for their view of the match, if any. That and it's easier to keep track on when to host the new ones so one full week like how the other boards are doing. All this while i'm doing new or remodeling write-ups, I should do it along with the weekly discussions so it can be accurate.

So lay off with the impatience, if anything is false in the thread, it's going to be me that's going to be nagged at by the others not anyone else.

That should answer all your questions about the thread right now.

*Edit* TwinkleToes wrote one for Metaknight so we may use that one if it's alright with him, I think Tenki already told him what to fix.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Alright Tenki, I'll go back and edit the post. Anything else? Was it not too long? I felt like I must have been putting in junk information because it's like... a page :/

EDIT: and one more thing, I don't really consider it "aggressive" if you go after him when he's gliding. I mean, it's exploiting an opening/counter-attacking. Aggressive implies (to me at least) that you're going towards your opponent and looking to create an opening yourself (i.e. forcing him/her to make a mistake). In this case, you're playing defensively and letting the MK make the mistake first (entering glide-mode) and abusing it once he is committed to it.

 

[Tenki]

Metaknight... and a bonus on DK

Alright Tenki, I'll go back and edit the post. Anything else? Was it not too long? I felt like I must have been putting in junk information because it's like... a page :/

EDIT: and one more thing, I don't really consider it "aggressive" if you go after him when he's gliding. I mean, it's exploiting an opening/counter-attacking. Aggressive implies (to me at least) that you're going towards your opponent and looking to create an opening yourself (i.e. forcing him/her to make a mistake). In this case, you're playing defensively and letting the MK make the mistake first (entering glide-mode) and abusing it once he is committed to it.

It was too long. Condense the move vs move to bullet points and it should be alot better.

And I guess I meant punish aggressively.

Thankfully, many Metaknights glide very often, and at the least, leave themselves open on landing.

=================

And now, for the random non-Metaknight tidbit:

Footstool jump ***** DK's recovery.

That is all.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Can you foot-stool him out of his up-b though?


EDIT: Oh, and I finished the MK entry, I think it's a "final" version so BT you can go ahead and use it as you see fit :x

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Nope. You just kind of bounce up.

 

[algandar88]

LINK

This is an easy match for sonic in my opinion. He is as slow as Ike but no where near as strong. First off down b goes under his projectiles and remember his gale rang can pull you to him when it returns to him. If u short hop onto it u can ride it and attack with an aerial .his aerial game isn’t that great and his weight is just right so combos are pretty easy jus be careful chasing him from underneath you do not want to eat a down air. I think stages with farther death zones (final destination) are in your favor since its more difficult for link to ko u. Link has a horrible recovery so if u edge guard with any attack hes not coming back to the stage, gimps should be your main way of taking him out…..if some your getting combed an up b d air is a good counter. Running circles around him is a good way to bait his spin attack After that you can shield and do whatever u please cuz there is no hitbox after the first spin until the last spin

 

[Tenki]

No...

that kinda requires a crappy Link player.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

I'll write up Link. That's not really that detailed.

 

[algandar88]

I'll write up Link. That's not really that detailed.

i try to jus get to da point

 

[TwinkleToes]

algandar, what good Link have you even seen that uses his up-b while grounded :/

BT, if you look in the Sonic Vid thread there are a few videos (mostly of DNES) against MK. None of the vids are great, but you might want to choose one of the better ones and post it up just so we can have something while we wait for better vids to come out.

 

[Tenki]

I'm disappointed that algandar didn't mention Z-air. Which makes me feel like he didn't play good Links.

algandar, what good Link have you even seen that uses his up-b while grounded :/

BT, if you look in the Sonic Vid thread there are a few videos (mostly of DNES) against MK. None of the vids are great, but you might want to choose one of the better ones and post it up just so we can have something while we wait for better vids to come out.

I've played against Legan, and he rarely uses grounded up-B, and if he does, it's placement for a definite kill (edgeguard, missed air).

An interesting thing to note is Link's FF N-air. It seems to outprioritize/disrupt alot of Sonic's moves.

I'll see if I can find one of the good Link players online some time and get more info.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Legan and Deva are SO much fun to play. XD

 

[TwinkleToes]

Oh, and one more thing, seeing as the MK entry has been upped, why not just start one of the new character discussions... like... right now?

:/

I think Snake and ROB would be good ones to start.

 

[Tenki]

I suggest Peach and Jigglypuff.

 

[Dragonboy2k4]

What about Mario Tenki?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic vs Link=70:30 Sonic's advantage.

The most threatening thing in Link's arsenal is his projectile game. Arrow cancels, boomerang, bombs are all good projectiles. bombs will definitely stop you if they hit and any good Link player will them out all the time.
Arrow canceling means he can get that arrow out after chucking a boomerang so if you rush him expect n arrow in the eye.

One other issue that you should be careful of is his Usmash. A DAC usmash definitely hurts and while it won't kill until higher percentages, you do not want to be far away from him.

link's up close game is below average.
Once up close Link cannot do much other than his jabs, U tilt and Fsmash. most of which if blocked are easily punished.
What you should do is abuse your dash grabs, your side B and spinshots.
once you are upclose always use a Dthrow, set him up for a chase and pressure him since he really cannot do much at that point.

Gimp him. Link is complete and utter crap off stage and cannot do anything but jump and ^B (and occasionally bomb jump but by then you should ahve intercepted him).
Link goes down very quickly once off stage and considering Sonic is very good at knocking the enemy out of it, do it whenever you can.
Fair and Bair are best Do not go for Uair's you'll just eat a Dair which is incredibly difficult to break.
If you have issues with the walls, spinshot then drop a spring on him.
If he is unde a platform fake him out and use your dash shield grabs and side B.

Of course this does not mean he is going down very very easily.
priority and the AOE of those attacks is quite good.
Ftilt covers a small bit of his back , all of the top and front of him. It starts out slow but ends very quickly so avoid getting baited into it.
His Zair while lesser than Samus's also sets up into his Dash attack and Usmash from 0-311% so be careful and don't do anything that is overly risky since his Smashes are fast and they will force you to restart your approach.

you won't have too much trouble but if you screw up you can expect to get killed early.

 

[TwinkleToes]

^Probably a more than sufficient write-up for Link. Haven't had any problems with him personally and never known any Sonic to have problems with him either. T Link is a bit different.

 

[Umby]

Definitely needs Peach and G&W discussion. I'll try and get some MK vids, but my processor seems to be too ****ty to capture vids without the video lagging when I play it back.

 

[Tenki]

Oh my goodness.

Grab>Pummel until breakout owns anyone with poor recoveries by setting them up for stagespikes.

And more importantly, Snake. Since it sets up for cypher grab or stage spike.

 

[TwinkleToes]

^Is this not the same with every other character? The hard part is to be that close to the edge and grabbing them right?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Oh my goodness.

Grab>Pummel until breakout owns anyone with poor recoveries by setting them up for stagespikes.

And more importantly, Snake. Since it sets up for cypher grab or stage spike.

That's potentially brilliant. O.o

 

[Tenki]

I noticed that because they fall in "HAH I BROKE OUT" animation, they actually end up lower than they would if you did d-throw.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Sonic's pummel is pretty quick to so the chances of an air escape aren't good.

Used right couldn't we be looking at like 15 percent KO's?

 

[Tenki]

no :3

that's not high enough damage for the wall stagespike to happen.

However, it's more likely for someone to jump ASAP out of a D-air than out of a pummel escape. Mistakes from a pummel escape are generally much more grave for certain characters. Like airdodging out of one = oh noes.

Also, this owns fastfallers too much. lol.

Going to test further just for a bit.

EDIT:
Vs Fox, if you're by the edge:
-Sets up for a Fsmash if they double jump immediately.
-Sets up for a stage spike if they up-B immediately

If Fox is hanging with feet off the edge:
-Sets up for a stage spike/footstool even if they doublejump immediately

vs Snake:
-Sets up for a Fsmash, regrab, etc, if they double jump immediately.

If Snake is hanging with feet off the edge:
-Sets up for a stagespike, Cypher Grab, or other gimp.

vs MK:
-Sets up for a footstool if MK double jumps immediately

no real change except a drastic fall if MK is hanging off the edge.

 

[Tenki]

Luigi: Solution to the aerials!

So I felt it very important to note:

(P)shield-grab Luigi's aerials before he lands.

Or Luigi in general as he lands.

Discuss.

 

[JayBee]

wow that's awesome. gonna do this often and see what I can get outta it. I have been trying to Footstool after a D throw but doesn't seem too smart in a real match. Btw tenki that shuttle loop thing is awsome, i did it , like three time in a row one match.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Good point, Tenki. All we need to do is p-shield and our problems are all solved! :x

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

That grab release thing over the edge,I'll have to try that.

on a side note: Boxob was banned.....

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

That grab release thing over the edge,I'll have to try that.

You really do. On Ike's I've let them drop and baired them under the stage at like 20 percent for kills. With Dthrows and good tech chasing you can really mess people up. It's SO effective and I'm not even really good at it yet.


The best part is Sonic's recovery is SO good people will have trouble doing it BACK to us. XD

 

[TwinkleToes]

Did the first edit myself.

Rob Entry (first edit):

R.O.B. is a common sight at most tournaments and he tends to place very high when used by a competent smasher. He is arguably the best camper in the game due to his long range projectile attacks and exceptional down-smash. Furthermore, as the 10th heaviest character with one of the longest recoveries in the game, R.O.B. stays alive for a very long time making his defensive play style even more aggravating to deal with. A few characters can do well when played aggressively against R.O.B. Sadly, Sonic is not one of those characters. In order to expose and capitalize on R.O.B.'s weaknesses Sonic needs to adopt a measured and time-consuming play style.

First of all, even against the short-ranged and weak Sonic, R.O.B. has very little approaching capabilities. His short hop d-air is bad as yours, his short hop b-air is slow and interferes with his momentum, his n-air is too slow to start, and his ground approaches are vulnerable to aerial counter attack. He can spam f-airs quickly if he wants, but like his other aerials, they are easily shielded and punished. Still, that doesn't mean you assume the R.O.B. will only camp. If you can, try to goad the R.O.B. into mounting an offensive. Should this succeed, your aerials and aerial spin charge (ASC) should tear him apart.

Most likely though, R.O.B. will try to camp you out. He will probably be sitting on the stage a good distance from you, but if the stage is smaller he might feel safe only when hogging the ledge where he can hop and spam projectiles from. The latter is more common against characters that cannot tangle with R.O.B. off stage. Sonic, however, can play very aggressively against this sort of camping with relatively little risk to himself. Your biggest friends here are springs and d-airs. Springs will obviously keep you out of harms way, and d-airs, when properly timed, will be extremely difficult for R.O.B. to counter. U-airs are also possible as is stage spiking with your b-air. Your biggest concern once you get close to R.O.B. is his f-air spamming. As long as you make sure these don't push you back out you should be fine.

The more "bread and butter" play-style though is to simply stay on the stage, power up gyros and blast lasers. Although you can shield the lasers easily and catch the gyros with f-air, air-dodging, and pick it up with with your dash attack, you will need to mount an offensive at some point. Running straight into R.O.B. to capitalize on projectile lag may seem like the right thing to do at first, but that will only lead you to a world of problems. First, R.O.B. is very good at dodging and then down-smashing. Simple though it may be, this alone will stop a huge bulk of your attacks on a regular basis. Second, R.O.B.'s close hand game overall can be astonishingly fast. His whiffed grabs are quickly over, his d-tilt is good at shield-locking, and his f-tilt has decent speed and range (though not as good as yours). In fact, one of the only things that Sonic has that consistently beats all of this is his ASC and, to a lesser extent, side-b hop.

The reason these two are so effective is that a majority of R.O.B.'s moves have a blind spot right where his face is. The only way for him to cover this blind spot effectively is to angle a f-smash or short-hop something, which you should be able to spot before you commit to your attack. This is one time where spin canceling will actually be useful for baiting attacks. Of course, the very nature of baiting means that the initial opening is created by the defender, not the attacker. If you cannot get used to this often lengthy process of mind-gaming you will likely lose.

Two general things to note when playing against R.O.B. are that:
1) He is very vulnerable from below. You should be able to juggle him with u-air without much problem. As an added benefit, R.O.B. is slightly more vulnerable to vertical KOs than he is to horizontal KOs. Tie this in with the fact that he is poor at killing people over the top, and you realize that stages with low ceilings are much to your advantage.
2) While R.O.B. tends to use his ridiculously long recovery to simply beast through most characters' edge-guarding, he does not do so well against Sonic. If you account for the homing attack (HA) being able to block off an above stage recovery, you are basically left with a below the stage game that involves you continually pushing out R.O.B. so that he steadily uses up his fuel and eventually cannot up-b anymore. D-air spiking and b-air stage spiking are your friends here. Realize also that if R.O.B. is in his up-b state it takes him a second to be able to attack meaning there will be even greater lag in his aerial defense.

 

[Umby]

I would like to attempt an Olimar entry.

 

[Greenstreet]

havin real trouble with a pikachu. thunder and down smash are really troubling... any ideas?

... dont double post.

 

[TwinkleToes]

Smash DI up and out of Pikachu's down-smash. Pretty much every time you can escape the last hit and a majority of the damage.

Thunder.... omg so much you can do to punish that. Shielding into it, f-smashing the end of it, dairing the end of it... You just need to get the timing right. Practice a little and those two things will be no problem from you.


Also, you people aren't critiquing my R.O.B. entry, this makes me sad

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I notice you don't seem to have much info on Peach so I thought I'd pop in and give you all some advice

Peach WILL use Dair combos. Peach WILL use Turnips because Sonic has no projectiles. Her aerials outprioritize pretty much anything Sonic throws at her. And of course she will use Floating because...that's what she does. That's the basic info you need to know, I've put some more detailed stuff below:

• 
  Peach's main killing move is her Fair and it's a lot better than Sonic's in power. But not in speed. If you can get your Fair in first then you'll mess her up. Her Up Smash is also another killer but Sonic's Dair makes it very situational indeed.

• 
  Like I said earlier she is going to use Turnips for approaching and possibly recovery gimping (although it's hard to use it effectivly with recovery like Sonic's). If you get the chance, catch them and throw them back. She'll Glide Toss them at you but you can Glide Toss better than her.

• 
  If you are predictable with your Spindashes and spam them, she'll probably wait for you to come charging at her then pull out Toad to counter it. And getting spores in your face isn't nice

• 
  Another kill move is her F Smash. Sonic's main ground kill move is also his F Smash. Be careful when using it because Peach's F Smash is faster

• 
  Juggle her if you can. U air is a great juggling move combined with Spring chasing and Peach falls very slowly and is very light. She's also very weak when she's high up in the air

• 
  Don't use your Homing attack over and over again to try and hit her. You leave yourself very open and Peach will probably hit you with an Up Smash which will hurt a lot. And if you miss and land on the ground funny, you leave yourself even more open

• Watch out for her jumping out of her sheild and trying to attack you (don't forget you can do his do)

• 
  Because Peach lacks kill power, she is fairly aggressive when it comes to edgeguarding so Homing attack her in the air when she's floating if she isn't expecting it because it will knock her out of the sky

• 
  Sonic's Dair is great at knocking someone away because it comes down so quickly but watch your use of it because she will probably Toad it or Up Tilt you out of it

That's all I've got to say for now really. Just play smart and never, ever underestimate Peach. If anyone wants some Peach fighting experience then pm me because when we get round to a Sonic match up, it'd be nice if I could contribute some info on him

 

[Tenki]

I notice you don't seem to have much info on Peach so I thought I'd pop in and give you all some advice

Peach WILL use Dair combos. Peach WILL use Turnips because Sonic has no projectiles. Her aerials outprioritize pretty much anything Sonic throws at her. And of course she will use Floating because...that's what she does. That's the basic info you need to know, I've put some more detailed stuff below:

• 
  Peach's main killing move is her Fair and it's a lot better than Sonic's in power. But not in speed. If you can get your Fair in first then you'll mess her up. Her Up Smash is also another killer but Sonic's Dair makes it very situational indeed.

• 
  Like I said earlier she is going to use Turnips for approaching and possibly recovery gimping (although it's hard to use it effectivly with recovery like Sonic's). If you get the chance, catch them and throw them back. She'll Glide Toss them at you but you can Glide Toss better than her.

• 
  If you are predictable with your Spindashes and spam them, she'll probably wait for you to come charging at her then pull out Toad to counter it. And getting spores in your face isn't nice

• 
  Another kill move is her F Smash. Sonic's main ground kill move is also his F Smash. Be careful when using it because Peach's F Smash is faster

• 
  Juggle her if you can. U air is a great juggling move combined with Spring chasing and Peach falls very slowly and is very light. She's also very weak when she's high up in the air

• 
  Don't use your Homing attack over and over again to try and hit her. You leave yourself very open and Peach will probably hit you with an Up Smash which will hurt a lot. And if you miss and land on the ground funny, you leave yourself even more open

• Watch out for her jumping out of her sheild and trying to attack you (don't forget you can do his do)

• 
  Because Peach lacks kill power, she is fairly aggressive when it comes to edgeguarding so Homing attack her in the air when she's floating if she isn't expecting it because it will knock her out of the sky

• 
  Sonic's Dair is great at knocking someone away because it comes down so quickly but watch your use of it because she will probably Toad it or Up Tilt you out of it

That's all I've got to say for now really. Just play smart and never, ever underestimate Peach. If anyone wants some Peach fighting experience then pm me because when we get round to a Sonic match up, it'd be nice if I could contribute some info on him

awe, thanks

I honestly think that Peach is something close to, if not already, a Sonic counter.

My only problem with this is that most of the situations it's describing is a grounded Peach. Most of the good Peaches I fight who have experience fighting Sonic usually float at about full hop or shorthop height and create a wall of D-air.

;__;