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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?
- Thread starter Scar
- Start date
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Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
Metroid Prime? pfft.
More like Mehtroid Prime.
More like Mehtroid Prime.
DarkKnight077
Smash Lord
Uhhh...
Banjo-Tooie best Nintendo game eva?
And Brawl has nothing on this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8UgdKBiGgoM
Banjo-Tooie best Nintendo game eva?
And Brawl has nothing on this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8UgdKBiGgoM
Eggm
Smash Hero
Super metroid for SNES owned all.
Clai
Smash Lord
Your bolded remarks really spoke out to me, and I guess what I said back then might have supported this claim. I know many people that are knowledgeable enough to argue for Brawl, and many who aren't and still argue anyway. My hometown community has practically zilch smash players, and it was only in college that I was able to find smash players and compete with them. I have been to Melee tournaments and beaten some people and got clobbered by others. I have yet to see a Brawl tournament, but I would really like to know what the tourny scene there is by being in one myself.
1) I do talk about Fox gameplay in Melee not because he is top-tier, but WHY he is top-tier. I know how Falcon plays from facing Scar's Falcon, I play semi-decently with Sheik, and I think Marth is the best character in the game. These characters represent the depth of Melee, as they have so many methods in executing their playstyle that even people that don't exactly have the fastest fingers can get good at them. Fox, however, is just freaking fast. Fox's entire playstyle is pressuring and using his insane speed. I know Fox can be defeated, but I can't stand playing him. He's not even enjoyable to play against. I just get overwhelmed by the speed. This is why I believe Melee is about being faster, rather then being smarter, although I know being smart has a huge role in this game.
2) I assume the wavedashing comment doesn't refer to me. I love wavedashing. I don't particularly miss it in Brawl, but I have nothing against it.
3) I know the "preset comboes" thing isn't true as well. I just get frustrated when not being perfect in my gameplay means that I get comboes on me that lead to massive damage or death. That is more demoralizing to me than spamming.
I know Melee is deeper than Brawl. I enjoy watching Melee videos more than Brawl videos. Yet I enjoy Brawl more because I know that it really is the smartest players that win. I feel better playing Brawl knowing that I don't have to do techniques perfectly and rapidly or I get comboed on. I personally wish gimping was actually effective in Brawl, but other than that, I don't have that many problems with it. I can enjoy Brawl as it is. I see Youtube videos from getyourtournment and I see really smart Snake players and individuals such as Futile and know that this is the community I fit in better. People who continue the generalization that Brawl is about projectile spamming and camping make me incredibly sad and take away from what Brawl is capable of as a fighter.
Egret
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2007
- Messages
- 234
It has certainly aged incredibly. I only started playing it this year and it's the most fun I've had with a game in a while, best 2D game I've played.
Demon Kirby
Smash Champion
I think Melee wins in every category except the artistic ones. You can say that Melee is more of a: Thinking game, Mindgame game, speed game, twitch reaction game, combo game, and even casual game (Yes, I have one friend that relentlessly made fun of me for playing Melee competitively, but complained so hard about Brawl, casual play, being bad. He said tripping, smash balls, etc. just ruin the game for him, and he's not even trying to be competitive!).
The only reason you have to get Brawl over Melee is if you have a need to play online. Even at that, I've heard, that it's not good.
"People who continue the generalization that Brawl is about projectile spamming and camping make me incredibly sad and take away from what Brawl is capable of as a fighter."
The problem is, that it's true. I CAN sit on the far corner of the map and spam arrows with Pit the entire match. It works. The things I have to work on most is figuring out the timing, spacing, and speed of my own and everyone else's moves to better my camping style. Once I'm able to effectively keep away from people and ruin their approach, I don't know what people are going to do against me aside from counter me with the same tactic! (Yes, I have played good people and this tactic has gotten me killed. That's why I said I'm working on it and that, when I have it mastered, I don't think much can stop it.)
The only reason you have to get Brawl over Melee is if you have a need to play online. Even at that, I've heard, that it's not good.
"People who continue the generalization that Brawl is about projectile spamming and camping make me incredibly sad and take away from what Brawl is capable of as a fighter."
The problem is, that it's true. I CAN sit on the far corner of the map and spam arrows with Pit the entire match. It works. The things I have to work on most is figuring out the timing, spacing, and speed of my own and everyone else's moves to better my camping style. Once I'm able to effectively keep away from people and ruin their approach, I don't know what people are going to do against me aside from counter me with the same tactic! (Yes, I have played good people and this tactic has gotten me killed. That's why I said I'm working on it and that, when I have it mastered, I don't think much can stop it.)
Digital Angel
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2007
- Messages
- 304
Brawl isn't just about camping, it's about knowing how to defend against camping with your own camping and camping properly too.
Aesir
Smash Master
Dear Clai
I find it incredibly ignorant that you think melee doesn't reward the smart player.
It's silly and naive to think that just because your smarter you'll win. Thats not the case no matter what game you play melee or brawl. You have to know your characters limitations and understand what you can and cannot do in that game.
The game is mostly about camping, the best way I can describe this is Soul Calibur 2 with stepG and poking. Theres nothing wrong with defensive play, it happened in melee all the time.
I find it incredibly ignorant that you think melee doesn't reward the smart player.
The smartest players do win in melee, it just so happens if you're a smart player but have no tech you won't be rewarded for that.
It's silly and naive to think that just because your smarter you'll win. Thats not the case no matter what game you play melee or brawl. You have to know your characters limitations and understand what you can and cannot do in that game.
So you basically want the game to be watered down enough to be able to make mistakes and not get punished. My friend competitive play is not for you if you feel this way, if you make a mistake you should be punished for it. You didn't have to be perfect in melee, you just had to be consistent, theres a difference between perfect and consistant, even M2k isn't perfect (blasphamy).
Brawl melee 64 are not fighting games, they're party fighters for one. It's a hybrid game, while it has a lot of fighting game elements to it, it's in no way a true fighting game.
The game is mostly about camping, the best way I can describe this is Soul Calibur 2 with stepG and poking. Theres nothing wrong with defensive play, it happened in melee all the time.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I would go Sonic.
Plow through your shield and arrows, grab you, knock you into the air then abuse my Uair since it outranges your Dair.
I don't think its accurate to say that you can win a game only by camping but it is a powerful strategy because not many characters have the ability to approach quickly, safely, or be capable of punishing said camping.
I think its more accurate to say camping is more effective against a larger cast of the characters since they cannot approach, or if they manage to get close, cannot punish the camper harshly enough to amke up for the damage they sustained during the approach.
Aesir
Smash Master
You can win by camping, shield camping is really good in this game, it's not projectile camping and while camping with projectile camping is good you can get past that.
But shield camping? it's not that simple as just plowing through, by approaching you give your self the disadvantage.
But shield camping? it's not that simple as just plowing through, by approaching you give your self the disadvantage.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Which is why I mentioned that there are very few characters that have the ability to approach safely. This takes into account projectile and Shield camping.
Sonic, Marth, for example.
I have beaten every Sonic who has attempted it. Try again.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
Good thing G&W can bucket Pit's arrows.
Three of them... then what? Is he going to dump it out so that he can catch 3 more?
Now I'm not saying this is an unstoppable tactic, wha tI'm am saying is that I'm working on MAKING it one. When I go to a big tourny (without crappy rules like Evo's right now), I guess we'll see if what I'm working at is worth it.
Now I'm not saying this is an unstoppable tactic, wha tI'm am saying is that I'm working on MAKING it one. When I go to a big tourny (without crappy rules like Evo's right now), I guess we'll see if what I'm working at is worth it.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
you DO know that the bucket dump can kill you...right? >_>
bovineblitzkrieg
Smash Journeyman
I just wanna say, yes, fox is insanely fast and I'm sorry that that's annoying. But do you realize how quickly I have to think to be able to overwhelm with him? It floods my short term memory just to be able to waveshine combo into whatever it is I can do depending on your DI. Being able to think that fast means you're smart, it's a form of intelligence. Plus, it's still counterable, you can get your hits in if you know what you're doing. As fox, you have to be very reactive at a breakneck speed because a simple shield can throw off what you're trying to do... you gotta predict and be unpredictable... and play SMART. It's really easy to die as fox. Just play more foxes and you'll learn how to better deal with him. Get better with Marth and Falco, they both can destroy fox pretty quickly.
If you come across a drillshining, drillwaveshining, drilltripleshining, drillwaveshining off the ledge, drillgrabbing Fox, figure out how to get in a position where he can't use the drill to his advantage so much. And if he does drill, outthink him. That's the challenge of Melee... can you be smart enough and think fast enough to counter good strategies and turn bad situations into favorable ones? If you can't, you don't deserve to win.
I simply disagree that Brawl requires you to be smarter. There's less decisions to make, and less total possibilities... and one small decision can result in a kill or a death. Brawl requires you to make a few good calculations, while in the same amount of time Melee requries a lot of good calculations. I would say that Brawl requires you to be more patient. You have less decisions to make, and rushing to do too much will result in bad situations. That's my problem with Brawl... I want things to start happening... it feels like nothing ever happens. It's like grinding in an MMORPG. It's just trade damage, trade damage, trade damage (or spam, spam, spam)... oh! now it's time for the kill shot, strategy finally matters! Wait for it.... wait for it... wait for it... etc. You very rarely can make things happen on your own. In Melee you can pressure pressure pressure until you force an opening... or you can play defensively and react intelligently to the opponent's pressure. It falls somewhere in between.
Brawl just doesn't have that pressure aspect, and that's why it fails.
If you come across a drillshining, drillwaveshining, drilltripleshining, drillwaveshining off the ledge, drillgrabbing Fox, figure out how to get in a position where he can't use the drill to his advantage so much. And if he does drill, outthink him. That's the challenge of Melee... can you be smart enough and think fast enough to counter good strategies and turn bad situations into favorable ones? If you can't, you don't deserve to win.
I simply disagree that Brawl requires you to be smarter. There's less decisions to make, and less total possibilities... and one small decision can result in a kill or a death. Brawl requires you to make a few good calculations, while in the same amount of time Melee requries a lot of good calculations. I would say that Brawl requires you to be more patient. You have less decisions to make, and rushing to do too much will result in bad situations. That's my problem with Brawl... I want things to start happening... it feels like nothing ever happens. It's like grinding in an MMORPG. It's just trade damage, trade damage, trade damage (or spam, spam, spam)... oh! now it's time for the kill shot, strategy finally matters! Wait for it.... wait for it... wait for it... etc. You very rarely can make things happen on your own. In Melee you can pressure pressure pressure until you force an opening... or you can play defensively and react intelligently to the opponent's pressure. It falls somewhere in between.
Brawl just doesn't have that pressure aspect, and that's why it fails.
Aesir
Smash Master
You can also smash DI out of fox's drill, which isn't very hard at all.
bovineblitzkrieg
Smash Journeyman
^good point
thumbswayup
Smash Master
So, I just found out about Jab-locking. Brawl is even more broken than I thought.
Yo DO know that my tactic is to stay out of range of that. That's like asking, "You DO know Falcon can Falcon Punch, right?"
If he fills up the bucket with those 3 arrows and he hasn't moved from that spot still, then he is going to be in the exact same situation as EVERYONE else without a normal reflector/absorber. I'll keep my distance, watch my spacing, and make sure I punish him when he does do the oil spill.
Actually, I need to test and see if Pit's shield (Down B) can stop it. That would make it REAL easy.
Clai
Smash Lord
That's the problem. You only need to think about it so many times before it goes into your subconscious. After that, you've memorized all the possibilities depending on DI that you don't even have to think about it anymore. It just comes to you. Yes, there are ways to counter it, but once you find a way to beat the counter, what chance does the opponent have? It's just like projectile spamming in Brawl, except that it involves incredibly fast fingers and thus requires better players to pull it off.
As much for the whole smart aspect, I think of it like sports. A player can be a genius at a particular sport, but it won't do him good if he's surrounded by players who are stronger and faster than he is. Escpecially in professional football drafts: they can value a guy because he's intelligent, but he will receive a lower value if he's not very strong or fast. Meanwhile, nobody is going to deny a player with freakish physical abilities, as long as he is smart enough to know the system. Yes, Melee requires a lot of intelligence, but if you're not fast enough, then more often than not it's good game for you. I can get better at Melee by playing faster players, but when you live in a place that has absolutely no Melee activity whatsoever...
In the same amount of time, that is true, but nobody looks at how much time it takes to achieve victory. A match is a match. At least in Melee, there is hitstun and non-insane DI that allows you to put on a good amount of damage or at the very least put you in a position where your opponent cannot counter-attack or air dodge to get out of the way. You have to fight for openings in Brawl in the same way that you do in Melee, except that there is no window of opportunity after you hit that opening. You hit the opponent once and you go back to neutral; you have to find an opening for every single hit (As opposed to having one opening and making that opening as long as possible with multiple hits). It really comes down to whether people prefer the fast-thinking type of intelligence or the patient type of intelligence. One type is prevalent and having the other type doesn't make the game dumber.
Now this other post is just... ugh.
I can honestly say that the logic behind this statement fails and just walk away. How can knowing your character's limitations and understanding what you can and cannot do in the game not have everything to do with smartness!?!?!? That's the entire purpose of playing smart!! If any person is going to pick a character and rush in without knowing that character's limitations and knowing how that character can be punished, then that is not a smart player.
There is a huge difference being making mistakes and being imperfect. Being imperfect invovles you messing up with only slight technicalities that won't get you in the long run. Making mistakes involves you messing up with fundamental aspects that you should, and will get punished for. When I'm playing against faster players, I often feel that I get punished for being imperfect far more than I do for making mistakes. I don't want to feel that I have to be perfect in order to win, no matter what it actually requires. I am a near-perfectionist in real life, and I often scold myself and think less of myself when I lose because I make mistakes. I have almost gotten myself thrown out of tennis matches on numerous occasions because I'm not playing as well as I know I could. I don't want to have that frustration upon me playing a video game. I want to have fun. I enjoy winning no matter which game it is in, so I will play the game that allows me to win without forcing me to be perfect in order to do so. You want to think less of me because I want that? That just makes you an elitist.
Fletch
Smash Master
Then you don't want to be a competitive player, or you don't want to work at getting good at a game... This is a very noobish attitude, and you basically want things dumbed down so you have a better chance. He's not an elitist, he just wants a game where you actually have a game where you can actually get a lot better than your opponent and where a skill gap actually exists, as opposed to Brawl, where there's not much of an advantage when you are the better player.
Aesir
Smash Master
I'm not an elitist, I'm just saying if you honestly think you have to be perfect in order to win, you're wrong. I'm not trying to be mean here, but it's true you're very wrong. if you're being punished you're making a mistake, if you're not able to deal with a fast player you made the mistake of letting him play that fast. You let him set the pace of match instead of you setting the pace of the match, I've slowed down many fox's simply because I made them afraid to approach me.
I'm far from a perfect player, my style is basic and I do the most simplest **** in the game, I'm consistent with my tech enough so I won't be punished for mis-haps I'm in no way a technical player yet I hardly get punished for my technical abilities.
I mean look it azen, he isn't technical at all, all he does is the most basic **** and usually places very high in tourney's.
Honestly what you're saying is, you don't want to be punished because you can't play technical or fast, if thats how you feel then don't play a character that requires high level technical play.
Or competitive play just isn't for you.
DarkDragoon
Smash Champion
Hey Aesir, I dropped by to tell you that you need to be more technical in Melee, because doing all your simple **** sucks.
Lulz<3.
But seriously, messing up should get you punished, not start a chain of exchanged blows. >.>...
-DD
Lulz<3.
But seriously, messing up should get you punished, not start a chain of exchanged blows. >.>...
-DD
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
A chain? This is Brawl, you should only get his once for making a mistake. Then after you hit hit, run away.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
It's not that easy.
And that was the worst analogy ever >_>
It's not like a G&W player is gonna mindlessly run up to you and dump it.
I usually wait for them to trip XD
Tripping would involve Pit running. And Pits don't run, they waved-- er, roll.
Clai
Smash Lord
So wanting to have fun in a video game without having a huge amount of mental stress is called being a noob now? Riiiiiiiiiight...
Do I want things dumbed down? Isn't the point of my last several posts that Brawl isn't an elementary-school game and requires a different type of thinking instead of less thinking? I want a slower game, undeniably, and that's because I work better in that type of environment. Does that make me a noob? I didn't ask for a game that favors the defensive so heavily that combos are impractical, but I feel that I can take what I have in Brawl and work with it better than what I had in Melee. I suppose you are going to say now that because Brawl has less technical things to work with, even though it suits my playstle better than Melee does, then that makes me a noob for making that choice. In that case, I am not going to respond.
I don't know if you watch tournament Brawl videos (and considering that many people think that Brawl is nothing but a 8-minute spamfest, I am going to doubt this claim), but I see Brawl tournament videos and see players try to push their characters to their limits and play smartly and strategically. There are many respected Brawl players and they go deep into tournaments continously. The skill difference is there. I am going to do the same. I am going to work hard to get my character to perform as well as possible within the Brawl atmosphere. I can do things in Brawl that I couldn't do in Melee because of the slower physics (for the love of God, do not say projectile spam, I don't spam!). Again, I didn't wish for this game, but it's here, and I am not going to gripe how bad it seems in comparison, I am going to look at the positive features of it and have fun with it.
To tell you the truth, all I see in your post is that I am a noob and that you want a game that is so technically demanding that you can rest on a perch and laugh at people that don't have the resources to get to that point. I have been to Melee tournaments, but that was only because I found SWF in efforts to find a community and get better at this game. That's right, I deliberately sought out to know how I could take what Melee offered to my advantage and play against people of similar calibur. I am going to repeat this, I have to choose between trying to get technical with Melee by myself and playing Brawl casually with my friends because that's what they play. I can play, have played, and will play competitive Melee when the opportunity exists, but to try to improve your skill alone is a chore and nothing else. Meanwhile, I will try to learn the aspects that makes me a better competitive Brawl player, even if it's just casually with my friends. Now picking an activity that gives me more options and brings out the spirit of competition, what does that remind me of...
LOL_Master
Smash Lord
doing things out of shield is advantageous especially if you've got game&watch with a bucket filled, the opponent will get hit by it sooner or later, that's the way it is
also clai, it doesn't mean you are a noob, just that you are a noob in melee
also clai, it doesn't mean you are a noob, just that you are a noob in melee
bovineblitzkrieg
Smash Journeyman
I don't know how many times I've said this... the problem is not the lack of techs, it's the lack of speed and the fact that all your hard work rewards you with one hit. Believe me, I can mindgame w/the best, and the techs only helped to create more options. If Brawl offered options without techs, that'd be fine. That's actually what I expected. I don't require technical superiority to win, I'm tired of hearing that same old argument. If there was a bit less lag, or everything was auto L-cancelled or something, that'd be great.
And my god, it's so stupid to make the reward for intelligent play ONE hit, then you're back to square one. What a way to drag out an already slow game.
Enjoy your Brawl competition my friend, you'll have fun until money's on the line and you trip. Or you get spammed to death. Or you gets sick of playing against Snake. Just play casually with your friends, it'll be more fun... I wouldn't waste too much time on "high level" Brawl, I get the feeling it's not going to be a fun/long-lasting scene.
shrinkray21
Smash Ace
He's right, IMO brawl is just fine until to get far into a tourney and run into a wolf that does 0 aerials...trust me...it happens all of the time...I know that getting beat down in melee by technical players wasn't the best time ever, but at least everyone knew who the better player was.
You keep mentioning the fun aspect. Yes fun is a part of the game but there are more important aspects when it comes to competition. People go to tournaments to COMPETE, to be the best, to win, to be rewarded for the work they put in, fun is just a side bonus. Friendlies are good for laid back fun, but slight mental stress will always be an aspect in competition. When it comes to competing in anything work must be put in, practice, bettering yourself as much as possible. Why should someone that doesn't have the self discipline to master all the techniques needed be able to win over someone that does? I'm not saying anything against brawl in this post, I'm just saying that wanting to have more fun or have less mental stress or less need to practice is not a viable argument.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
You can compete and have fun.
arrowhead
Smash Ace
no, actually fun has everything to do with it. the competing part IS the fun part. well, part of it anyway. brawl isn't fun because it lacks substance
Rhubarbo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2007
- Messages
- 2,035
Brawl limits you more than Melee does. You can perform less actions, and defense is clearly the primary method of fighting. If you disagree with this you are either
A) A minority that for some reason played Melee and prefers Brawl for some weird reason.
B) Never properly played Melee.
A) A minority that for some reason played Melee and prefers Brawl for some weird reason.
B) Never properly played Melee.
The Idealist
Smash Cadet
when people say that melee is better than brawl, it is mostly irrelevant because brawl is the current smash bros. game. It doesn't matter what competitive means, it doesn't matter whether melee was better, regardless of the reasons. 
Brawl has better graphics.
Brawl has more characters.
Brawl is what people are playing now.
Melee is old, and it is done.
To the people that keep saying that Melee is better, so what? Are you gonna go play Melee with your friends instead? If you only play competitively, are you going to Melee tourneys?
Brawl has better graphics.
Brawl has more characters.
Brawl is what people are playing now.
Melee is old, and it is done.
To the people that keep saying that Melee is better, so what? Are you gonna go play Melee with your friends instead? If you only play competitively, are you going to Melee tourneys?
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