Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[The Executive]

I would like to know why you think that.

Due to major influx of trollus maximus in recent months, certain people think that a join date after Jan 2008 and/or a post count below 200 make your opinion automatically irrelevant, despite the fact that there are many people who meet neither of those critieria and still make ******** posts/threads.

 

[arrowhead]

ok, so why? there's nothing wrong with the old one that's been around forever.

I would like to know why you think that.

so?... we're not changing the original definition. we're adding a definition to an already existing word. it's like using the word "gay" for happy and homosexual. they're completely different definitions but they stem from the same word

because you're a random guy who's trying to change things that the competitive community has accepted for a while now. and you're just plain wrong

 

[Vulcan55]

Due to major influx of trollus maximus in recent months, certain people think that a join date after Jan 2008 and/or a post count below 200 make your opinion automatically irrelevant, despite the fact that there are many people who meet neither of those critieria and still make ******** posts/threads.

as I suspected, typical internet ego.

 

[arrowhead]

as I suspected, typical internet ego.

well duh, this is an elitist community

 

[Vulcan55]

whatever.
**** it.
I came in here for intelligent discussion, but the most intelligent thing I've heard is from The Executive, and I am not going to try and force it out of anybody else.

 

[Grunt]

Competition VS Competitiveness

Consistancy is no where stated anywhere in the OP, so why did it get brought up?

(quoting OP)
Competitiveness=the innate property of a game allowing better players to win consistently.

this is true.
Better players should win all of the time. But when players are equal in skill, then there is competition. basically what he's saying, is A worse player shouldn't win. that would make the game far too ... weird.

Vulcan, i dont think you understood the meaning at first.

Dont worry about these guys. 70% of them sucked at melee when they joined, made posts about "I n33d halp in beeting my little bro!" , slowly learned about the forum's De Facto Rules, and are now boasting their E-Peen with their join date tatooed on it to try and degenerate the Brawl noobs. (Personally i know you are not one.)

 

[arrowhead]

regardless, you didn't answer my question. Why are you giving it a new definition? What is wrong with the old one?

oh please, the game has been out for two months. and so what if I want to change it? you can't expect me to beleive everyone has accepted it when this discussion is still going on.

please elaborate. I would like to know why you think I am wrong. until then this statement has no validity.

whatever.
**** it.
I came in here for intelligent discussion, but the most intelligent thing I've heard is from The Executive, and I am not going to try and force it out of anybody else.

the old definition doesn't mention anything about fair and skilled play

of course not everyone accepts it. there's nothing that everyone will accept. but this definition has been made by the more skilled and intelligent members of our community. they know what they're talking about.

you're arguing that they chose the wrong term to use their definition with. they created a definition and chose a work to use for it. and now you're telling them they can't do that? languages are always changing. just because it's not in the dictionary doesn't mean it isn't right

no, you came here to tell scar he's wrong.

 

[SunriseW12]

whatever.
**** it.

after trying to follow these topics for so long, this is my reaction as well.

 

[Avalon262]

Take a joke man. I never said she wasn't hot.

We got them good Thumbs.

Everyone thought we were serious LMFAO!!! and we failed to lock this thread.

 

[arrowhead]

after trying to follow these topics for so long, this is my reaction as well.

this is where i go to release my anger at ignorant nooblets.

 

[Kreyn]

Many of these threads make good points. I think we will just have to wait to see what comes out within the next year or so.

But imo, i think brawl is more character driven. If you can get down in melee l-canceling, wavedashing, and the other techs, you can sort of own with most characters (but there is definitly character specific stuff, dont get me wrong). But in brawl, i think the techniques that we have discovered have greatly tip the scale on whos better than others. And it is those characters that will only benefit from the new techniques discovered.

 

[chansen]

^excellent point for a boards rookie^

but.

competitive means anything you play to win and also play others with the intension of winning. aka trying your hardest to be really good at said game.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

Many of these threads make good points. I think we will just have to wait to see what comes out within the next year or so.

But imo, i think brawl is more character driven. If you can get down in melee l-canceling, wavedashing, and the other techs, you can sort of own with most characters (but there is definitly character specific stuff, dont get me wrong). But in brawl, i think the techniques that we have discovered have greatly tip the scale on whos better than others. And it is those characters that will only benefit from the new techniques discovered.

wow i so strongly disagree with this.

i can play as TWO characters in melee decently, in brawl i can play almost whoever i want because there is almost nothing to do that is difficult in the game.

learning a few advanced tactics will overall help your gameplay in melee, but you aren't magically good with anyone having learned those specific things.

 

[RDK]

When it comes to whether or not Brawl is more balanced character-wise or not, I think Gimpy says it best himself:

characters that can win tournaments:
snake

characters that cant win tournaments where snake is present:
everyone except snake

characters that can win tournaments where snake isn't present:
everyone

 

[Grunt]

When it comes to whether or not Brawl is more balanced character-wise or not, I think Gimpy says it best himself:

Lol.
His name stats with a "W" and it isn't Wario...

 

[SuperRacoon]

Brawl has its good and its bad, Melee has its good and its bad
its useless to keep arguing so instead i'm gonna post the advantages and disadvantages of each on the competitive scene.

BRAWL advantages

Stages that change every so often forces players to move and adapt
Short Hop are dodges are more versatile
Air dodging does not cause helpless.
So far, there are more defensive ATs.
There is a greater variety of characters and play styles.
The Smash Ball creates a totally unique situation every time it appears
Brawl is a new game with a huge audience.

Disadvantages

Tripping is extremely annoying
Due to its massive size, there is a split second of hit lag when attacks connect.
Ledge sweeping makes recovering almost too easy.
Again Brawl is still a fairly new game we don't know everything about it yet.
Luck plays a larger roll than it did with Melee.

Melee Advantages
Very fast paced game with zero lag.
There is no random tripping
Edge guarding was easier, almost too easy.
Grabs were easier.
Melee had some pretty cool exploitable glitches.
Melee has long established metagames.

Disadvantages

Melee's items were not as balanced.
Fewer characters and stages.
Air dodges cause helpless if initiated in the are to avoid a thrown home run bat.
Nearly everything about melee has been established.
Melee has been out for a long time, smash bros. needs a refresher

is this list perfect, most certainly not, but its a step in the right direction for this debate, oh i cannot stress enough how ******** tripping is.

Last word, IMO, Brawl is just as competive has melee.

 

[SamDvds]

lol @ air dodging a thrown bat...the last time i checked peach couldnt pull those out of the ground in a tournament >.>

 

[Corigames]

Counter point

Stages that change every so often forces players to move and adapt

How is that good when you are focusing more on surviving the stage than fighting your opponent? That's not fun. And even if it was, it's not a very good show of skill if you win a tournament by the stage killing your enemy.

Short Hop are dodges are more versatile

What? Can you rephrase that?

Air dodging does not cause helpless.

That's not an advantage over melee, that's just a different design choice. That's like saying the lack of Pichu is an advantage.

So far, there are more defensive ATs.

Once again, that's not really an advantage, that just makes the game play different. And even if you did include that as an advantage, why would you WANT to say the game's better because people turtle more? That's seems backwards in a fighting game to win through neutrality.

There is a greater variety of characters and play styles.

Characters, yes. Play styles...

The Smash Ball creates a totally unique situation every time it appears

What? No it doesn't. All the smash ball equates to is: Fighting, fighting, *smash ball*, chasing chasing, *someone gets it*, gimping, gimping, *it ends*, fighting, repeat.

It's the same every time, and always gay to the people who don't get it. On top of that, some people have WAYYY better final smashes than other people, making the game imbalanced even when you are trying to have fun!

Brawl is a new game with a huge audience.

Advantage?

Very fast paced game with zero lag.

If you knew what you were doing! You couldn't just grab Marth and expect to Ken Combo just because you saw this youtube video one time! It took practice to do that.

Edge guarding was easier, almost too easy.

How was it almost too easy?

Grabs were easier.

If you could JC, pivot, or chain them. Otherwise, it's basically the same.

Melee had some pretty cool exploitable glitches.
Melee has long established metagames.[/COLOR]

Melee's items were not as balanced.

Nope, and they were turned off quickly. Now try to turn off tripping!

Fewer characters and stages.

Less characters to balance, more unique stages, less unbalanced stages... disadvantage?

Air dodges cause helpless if initiated in the are to avoid a thrown home run bat.

Nearly everything about melee has been established.

Again... disadvantage?

Melee has been out for a long time, smash bros. needs a refresher

A refresher, not be changed into a completely different game!

is this list perfect, most certainly not, but its a step in the right direction for this debate,

I understand that. I'm hyper critical and an ***-hole.

oh i cannot stress enough how ******** tripping is.

Amen

Last word, IMO, Brawl is just as competive has melee.

IMHO, no.

 

[127crazie]

There are some good points above.

Melee vs. Brawl... this is how I see it.

Melee was (and still is, although I won't really play it anymore) a good game that by its own standards is deeper than Brawl.

Brawl seems to be slower and has more defensive advanced techniques. But, the important thing here is that Brawl is its own game. Of course it's going to be different that Melee! We are basing all our assumptions off Melee metagame right now when Brawl has just been out for two months.

With things like the USB Gecko (I forgot what it's called) and when people are still playing Brawl like it's Melee*, of course Brawl pales in comparison to Melee because it's not Melee.

*We are getting used to Brawl more now but it will take a while longer for everyone to get fully comfortable to it.

 

[DarkDragoon]

>.> The point of this topic is to establish that Brawl is less, if at all fitting, for a competitive scene.

First off, I saw that Two Month Argument in there, and if you read the OP, which says:

2) Brawl has only been out for a short amount of time, how long did it take to find Melee ATs
This would be relevant if the two games experienced similar launches. They didn't. Melee had a few SSB64 players who knew about z-cancelling, and there was no central intelligence like SmashBoards to really unite the community and combine everyone's knowledge.

Now, at Brawl's launch, there are thousands of players working day and night to find something - ANYTHING to abuse. There were even players doing this in early February, immediately after the game was released in Japan. So far, nothing of note has advanced the metagame to anything to be considered remarkable.

Now, no one who is serious about competition plays Brawl like they play Melee. No one is that stupid anymore. Its either Camp, or play Snake/MK.

None of our "assumptions" are based off of the Melee metagame, its based on what we've played, and what is clearly there to make it "Anti-Competitive".

Sakurai himself is very against the competitive community and, Not Blaming you Gimpy, but I believe that the delay after E4All(And Gimpy's LCancel topic), was made to remove all those things which Gimpy had discovered and given us hope for Brawl with.

Melee is clearly the superior game in terms of competition, for all the reasons already stated in the past 3000 posts. It has the right mix of risk and reward. SSB64 Had higher risk, and now Brawl is all about reward.

Melee had the speed, the practicing, and the techniques that refined its metagame into the diamonds you can watch on youtube and oogle over them for hours. Melee is what made C.Falcon the sexy beast we all know he wishes he could be in Brawl.

There is no speed anymore, there is no excitement or true reward for practicing. If the player is good enough to know how to recover or DI properly, you're already in for a tough, or at least long, fight in Brawl.

From what I've seen so far, USB Gecko would be Brawl's only hope of having a FUN TO WATCH and MORE FUN TO PLAY Competitive Scene.

I've even considered not attending the next Esticle because I REALLY don't like giving Cort $10 to play Brawl, when I'd rather give him $10 to play Melee, because it just feels better.

<.< I'm going anyways, because its always fun there, but I'm just saying, it actually crossed my mind.

-DD

 

[leafgreen386]

Although darkdragoon did a good job covering this, I'd like to address a slightly different perspective to this.

With things like the USB Gecko (I forgot what it's called) and when people are still playing Brawl like it's Melee*, of course Brawl pales in comparison to Melee because it's not Melee.

*We are getting used to Brawl more now but it will take a while longer for everyone to get fully comfortable to it.

Uh...

See:

wow i so strongly disagree with this.

i can play as TWO characters in melee decently, in brawl i can play almost whoever i want because there is almost nothing to do that is difficult in the game.

learning a few advanced tactics will overall help your gameplay in melee, but you aren't magically good with anyone having learned those specific things.

"Adjusting" to brawl isn't difficult in the slightest, primarily due to how shallow it is. It took me about a week a piece to learn each of the characters I play and have a decent shot at winning against people who have been playing the same character for a month or two. I've gotten only slightly better with each of those characters since then, as I learn more about their matchups, and what moves outprioritize what, because besides that, there is very little to actually learn in brawl. There isn't much to do that's technical in the game, so as long as you understand the game physics (aka everyone), you can perform well as long as you play smart. We are plenty used to brawl. People aren't trying to play it like melee. The USB Gecko project is what people are working on because they do understand brawl, and they do understand that they don't like it, that it isn't as competitive of a game, but do want a new game. Brawl and melee are very different games, so they are going to appeal to different groups of people. Players who liked melee's pace aren't going to be as receptive of brawl as others, especially after experiencing an actual competitive game firsthand. Sure, they might be able to play brawl well, but if what they wanted was a sequel of melee, rather than a completely new game, how could you blame them for wanting to modify brawl using the USB Gecko, and hold separate tournies? The people who are playing brawl at a competitive level are acknowledging that it isn't that competitive of a game. That should really tell you something there.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I used to feel the same way until I watched/played against people who were better at my characters than I was.

Tink and Cosmo, respectively.

There is a lot to learn in Brawl, people who think otherwise will not get very far

 

[RDK]

The competitive scene is moving to Brawl no (as unfortunate as that is), no doubt about it. If you're looking to win money nowadays, you either adapt, or you don't (so basically you get good with Snake, or you lose).

 

[shrinkray21]

The competitive scene is moving to Brawl no (as unfortunate as that is), no doubt about it. If you're looking to win money nowadays, you either adapt, or you don't (so basically you get good with Snake, or you lose).

Or you main a character who is one of the few counters...its funny though...I go to a tourney and immediately look for snakes...and surprisingly yoshi's...they **** my olly

 

[DarkDragoon]

...
What? Something counters Snake?

Someone should've told the people at Mass Madness 9.
4 out of the 5 top Placers were using Snake.
The 5th person, who got 4th place, was using MK.
<.< I mean, at least Melee had Falco, Fox, Peach, Marth and Sheik.
Now we just have...Snake and MK...

1: Cort ($435.60) (Snake)
2: PC Chris ($237.60) (Snake)
3: Nuro ($118.80) (Snake)
4: Jinx (Metaknight)
5: Solid Jake (Snake)
-DD

 

[thumbswayup]

We got them good Thumbs.

Everyone thought we were serious LMFAO!!! and we failed to lock this thread.

LMFAO I know. It appears the idiocy in this thread extends to people I previously thought were intelligent. Oh well, we'll get them next time buddy

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I just wanna add this thought into the mix...

Even if Brawl does somehow magically become a halfway decent competitive game, I won't want to play it because it's not fun. At all.

It's funny that Sakurai thinks that it hurts your ego to lose and that he understands "children having fun hitting sandbags in training mode".... he doesn't want people to feel bad or get frustrated over losing. So he made Brawl how it is.

The reason it's so funny is that when I lose to a really good player in Melee, I think "**** that was nice, let's play again!", I come up with ways to maneuver around his strategies, and the fun continues. When I lose in Brawl, I think "Wow, Snake is so ****ing broken" or "Metaknight's up+B makes this game no fun". It isn't fun at all when you lose to completely broken tactics, and it's much more frustrating to deal with the "high level" gameplay tactics in Brawl. There's not much you can do in response other than play as MK, Snake, or spam.

Some would say that Melee had broken tactics, such as drillwaveshines and sheik's juggles and marth in general, but at least they're counterable. They're even counterable with low tier characters, if you're good enough. You can work around them and play smart and quick.

I purport that what Sakurai did, in the eyes of a competitive gamer, is make it suck more to lose in Brawl than in Melee, contrary to his intentions. It's just not fun when the game is so slow and laggy that you can't get around good strategies or even something as stupid as projectile spamming.

He just made the game so ****ing... gay. It's almost as if he knew that he didn't have to balance the game or try very hard just because the name "Smash Bros" was going to sell no matter what he did. So why would he bother to take the time and effort to make a good, balanced game when he could just puke out a children's game with much less effort? The profit results are the same.

This kind of turned into a general tirade, my apologies.

Best of luck to the Gecko project.

 

[thumbswayup]

I just wanna add this thought into the mix...

Even if Brawl does somehow magically become a halfway decent competitive game, I won't want to play it because it's not fun. At all.

It's funny that Sakurai thinks that it hurts your ego to lose and that he understands "children having fun hitting sandbags in training mode".... he doesn't want people to feel bad or get frustrated over losing. So he made Brawl how it is.

The reason it's so funny is that when I lose to a really good player in Melee, I think "**** that was nice, let's play again!", I come up with ways to maneuver around his strategies, and the fun continues. When I lose in Brawl, I think "Wow, Snake is so ****ing broken" or "Metaknight's up+B makes this game no fun". It isn't fun at all when you lose to completely broken tactics, and it's much more frustrating to deal with the "high level" gameplay tactics in Brawl. There's not much you can do in response other than play as MK, Snake, or spam.

Some would say that Melee had broken tactics, such as drillwaveshines and sheik's juggles and marth in general, but at least they're counterable. They're even counterable with low tier characters, if you're good enough. You can work around them and play smart and quick.

I purport that what Sakurai did, in the eyes of a competitive gamer, is make it suck more to lose in Brawl than in Melee, contrary to his intentions. It's just not fun when the game is so slow and laggy that you can't get around good strategies or even something as stupid as projectile spamming.

He just made the game so ****ing... gay. It's almost as if he knew that he didn't have to balance the game or try very hard just because the name "Smash Bros" was going to sell no matter what he did. So why would he bother to take the time and effort to make a good, balanced game when he could just puke out a children's game with much less effort? The profit results are the same.

This kind of turned into a general tirade, my apologies.

Best of luck to the Gecko project.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Demon Kirby]

Smash Haruhiist

I can no longer take aything you ever say seriously.

Also, nice flamebait signature.

 

[Grunt]

hooray for the gecko project.

 

[thumbswayup]

I can no longer take aything you ever say seriously.

Also, nice flamebait signature.

ROFL, it's a joke you moron. I'm not an actual "haruhiist". Guess you're too young too realize things people say on forums aren't supposed to be taken seriously.

Also, gtfo.

 

[Demon Kirby]

ROFL, it's a joke you moron. I'm not an actual "haruhiist". Guess you're too young too realize things people say on forums aren't supposed to be taken seriously.

Also, gtfo.

Way to sound 11 years old.

 

[Zankoku]

I was not aware that you could hear people talk on message boards.

 

[thumbswayup]

I don't respond to trolls.

 

[Demon Kirby]

I was not aware that you could hear people talk on message boards.

My PC is magical.

I don't respond to trolls.

I don't respond to people who feel they have to insult people on the internet to feel good about themselves.

Wait, ****.

 

[thumbswayup]

I don't respond to people who feel they have to insult people on the internet to feel good about themselves.

Wait, ****.

Precisely what you did to me because you didn't have the intellect to realize it might be a joke.

 

[Demon Kirby]

Precisely what you did to me because you didn't have the intellect to realize it might be a joke.

Ditto. Also, I don't recall flaming you like you did to me.

Are you done flaming me, or do you feel you have to excersize your E-ego more?

I agree with the poster below. Time to restart.

 

[chansen]

I used to feel the same way until I watched/played against people who were better at my characters than I was.

Tink and Cosmo, respectively.

There is a lot to learn in Brawl, people who think otherwise will not get very far

You make a **** fine point 56k, and tink taught me to play jigs to win tournaments. And I believe we share the same outlook on Brawls future.

I just wanna add this thought into the mix...

Even if Brawl does somehow magically become a halfway decent competitive game, I won't want to play it because it's not fun. At all.

It's funny that Sakurai thinks that it hurts your ego to lose and that he understands "children having fun hitting sandbags in training mode".... he doesn't want people to feel bad or get frustrated over losing. So he made Brawl how it is.

The reason it's so funny is that when I lose to a really good player in Melee, I think "**** that was nice, let's play again!", I come up with ways to maneuver around his strategies, and the fun continues. When I lose in Brawl, I think "Wow, Snake is so ****ing broken" or "Metaknight's up+B makes this game no fun". It isn't fun at all when you lose to completely broken tactics, and it's much more frustrating to deal with the "high level" gameplay tactics in Brawl. There's not much you can do in response other than play as MK, Snake, or spam.

Some would say that Melee had broken tactics, such as drillwaveshines and sheik's juggles and marth in general, but at least they're counterable. They're even counterable with low tier characters, if you're good enough. You can work around them and play smart and quick.

I purport that what Sakurai did, in the eyes of a competitive gamer, is make it suck more to lose in Brawl than in Melee, contrary to his intentions. It's just not fun when the game is so slow and laggy that you can't get around good strategies or even something as stupid as projectile spamming.

He just made the game so ****ing... gay. It's almost as if he knew that he didn't have to balance the game or try very hard just because the name "Smash Bros" was going to sell no matter what he did. So why would he bother to take the time and effort to make a good, balanced game when he could just puke out a children's game with much less effort? The profit results are the same.

This kind of turned into a general tirade, my apologies.

Best of luck to the Gecko project.

^That was the last decent post.^

now let's restart.

 

[thumbswayup]

Demon Kirby is a very unoriginal troll.

 

[Demon Kirby]

Demon Kirby is a very unoriginal troll.

...

Well, I'm done here. I don't want to put up with this crap any longer and be insulted by a wanna-be internet tough guy.

This entire conversation is pointless and I feel bad for starting it. Sorry to those who were looking for any form of intelligence in this conversation.