Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[NES n00b]

Ok, Gimpy, here's the thing. That theme of punishment was present in Melee WAY ahead of its release. Such gameplay is obviesly not visible in Brawl at this moment.
You've demonstrated a bad a comparison to conclude that Brawl is annoying simplified.

It is not visible cause it is not there. The biggest punishments are usually your strongest moves out of sheild (that you can pull off) and chain grabs. There is some other stuff too but they are the best punishment schemes usually for each character. This is not complicated at all of a punishment scheme (aka reward). So it is usually better to take the little risk method (which usually are still really unsafe) and that is the risk reward system of Brawl.

Now, please not that competive value is independent of the content present in Melee. Competitive value depends on how many people want to prove themselves in a certain area by competing. At this moment, most people are competing in Brawl and not Melee. Brawl has a much higher level of competitiveness.

No it doesn't or else if more people tryed to get to the next level of Mario Party than every game, then it would be the most competitive game. People are needed for a metagame to be developed, but if the game is simple, then the people will develop the game and quickly and the metagame won't develop any further.

I have just said otherwise with evidence. And, no-- I am not ignorant of the the high level of Melee gameplay which has an age of seven+ years.

Evidence? I wanna see how a hypothetical of "Maybe combos and punishment system will happen in the future" is evidence? And the other thing definitely is not evidence as more people simply playing the game competitively does not make the game more competitive.

Edit: Melee is more competitive cause the game is much more complicated than Brawl. Melee tests your skills in more areas, has more options, and has a more developed metagame.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

LOL @ Aesir

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

^ No it's not.

...Wii sports has competition, it doesn't mean it's competitive. Theres a difference.

What a contradicting statement....

Thats the thing, any two given people playing any one given game against each other naturally seek to win. As such, all games are competitive. By your definition, the game with the most players is the most competitive as such Wii Sports(and Wii Play) are more competitive than Brawl.

Again, you are misinterpreting/altering my post (please look above in bold.) You can not argue that I wrote that.

 

[Fletch]

What a contradicting statement....

I'd advise you to read the first post of this thread, it will clear some things up for you on the meaning of competitiveness.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Competitive value depends on how many people want to prove themselves in a certain area by competing.

There, you said it yourself, Competitive value is dependent on how many people want to prove themselves in a certain area by competing. Because any two people playing a non co-operative multiplayer game will inherently want to win, all people playing are competitive. As such, the game with the most players is the most competitive.

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

It is not visible cause it is not there. The biggest punishments are usually your strongest moves out of sheild. There is some other stuff too but that is what is the best punishment schemes usually for each character. This is not complicated at all of a punishment scheme (aka reward). So it is usually better to take the little risk method (which usually are still really unsafe) and that is the risk reward system of Brawl.

Has it ocurred to you that it could be the case that it is not visible because it has not been found? Just because it is not visible at the moment doesn't mean that a more advanced system of punishment won't be found later. And you may be right. Maybe the theme of punishment is way softer than it is in Melee. But let's not forget that Brawl has completely different standards.



No it doesn't or else if more people tryed to get to the next level of Mario Party than every game, then it would be the most competitive game. People are needed for a metagame to be developed, but if the game is simple, then the people will develop the game and quickly and the metagame won't develop any further.


You have completely changed the subject to Mario Party and metagame.



Evidence? I wanna see how a hypothetical of "Maybe combos and punishment system will happen in the future" is evidence? And the other thing definitely is not evidence as more people simply playing the game competitively does not make the game more competitive.

"Now, please note that competive value is independent of the content present in Melee. Competitive value depends on how many people want to prove themselves in a certain area by competing. At this moment, most people are competing in Brawl and not Melee. Brawl has a much higher level of competitiveness."

That was the evidence to support my conclusion of "I have just said otherwise..."

Edit: Melee is more competitive cause the game is much more complicated than Brawl. Melee tests your skills in more areas, has more options, and has a more developed metagame.

Again, I have just argued that the complicated content of Smash Brothers Melee has NOTHING to do with competitive value.

There.

Also, I'm glad that debate is starting up again in the thread. Every time I peeked, there was nothing but spam and a bunch of lol's.

 

[NES n00b]

There.

Also, I'm glad that debate is starting up again in the thread. Every time I peeked, there was nothing but spam and a bunch of lol's.

There is not high enough hitstun to get another hit off with alot of moves and it never will. So no, the punishment system will be what I said. If you want to consider baiting things or predicting your opponent as "punishment" then that is not what it is.

I did not change the subject at all. You said the more people who compete the more competitive it is. I said if Mario Party had more people playing it competitively, then it would be more competitive by your definition. Prove to me otherwise.

What you said wasn't evidence. Admittedly, I don't have evidence for the second paragraph since this a rhetoric/semantics arguement, but there is evidence to show that Brawl has little combos and the defender usually has the upperhand in most cases. Saying something might happen in the future is not evidence. If you think competitiveness equals more competition, fine how about this "Brawl's metagame has less depth than Melee." How does that work for ya?

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

There, you said it yourself, Competitive value is dependent on how many people want to prove themselves in a certain area by competing. Because any two people playing a non co-operative multiplayer game will inherently want to win, all people playing are competitive. As such, the game with the most players is the most competitive.

As such, the game with the most players who desire to prove themselves by winning/ achieving recognition are the most competitive.

That is what I mean. Still, it is ambiguous. You can interpret it differently to make it seem false statement or bad argument. So, let me clarify things a little to avoid this.

Let's assume that more people own Wii Sports, and the objective of that game is to win.
Now, out of all those people, VERY few engage in competition such as a hosted tournament or event to prove themselves against a certain number of people. That is competition.
I can assure you that Super Smash Brothers Brawl has more players that engage in tournament competitions to achieve recognition/prove themselves by winning. And I can also assure you that Super Smash Brothers Brawl has more dedicated players trying to prove themselves in competitions than Super Smash Brothers Melee at this moment.

 

[Pink Reaper]

As such, the game with the most players who desire to prove themselves by winning/ achieving recognition are the most competitive.

That is what I mean. Still, it is ambiguous. You can interpret it differently to make it seem false statement or bad argument. So, let me clarify things a little to avoid this.

Let's assume that more people own Wii Sports, and the objective of that game is to win.
Now, out of all those people, VERY few engage in competition such as a hosted tournament or event to prove themselves against a certain number of people. That is competition.
I can assure you that Super Smash Brothers Brawl has more players that engage in tournament competitions to achieve recognition/prove themselves by winning. And I can also assure you that Super Smash Brothers Brawl has more dedicated players trying to prove themselves in competitions than Super Smash Brothers Melee at this moment.

You cant assure me of ****. The fact that as of right now, at this exact moment, more people are playing Brawl in the U.S and Japan than Melee doesn't mean ****. The fact is, a few years ago, more people in the world wanted to prove they were the best at melee than do now at Brawl, and the fact is that at least a large amount of the people who do care about Brawl right now wont in the future, just like with every game. Now THATS some that can be assured.

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

I did not change the subject at all. You said the more people who compete the more competitive it is. I said if Mario Party had more people playing it competitively, then it would be more competitive by your definition. Prove to me otherwise.

I totally agree with the statement in you have just made (bold). BUT, you didn't write that. You wrote:

"No it doesn't or else if more people tryed to get to the next level of Mario Party than every game, then it would be the most competitive game. People are needed for a metagame to be developed, but if the game is simple, then the people will develop the game and quickly and the metagame won't develop any further."

You completely drove me off-track.

What you said wasn't evidence. Admittedly, I don't have evidence for the second paragraph since this a rhetoric/semantics arguement, but there is evidence to show that Brawl has little combos and the defender usually has the upperhand in most cases. Saying something might happen in the future is not evidence. If you think competitiveness equals more competition, fine how about this "Brawl's metagame has less depth than Melee." How does that work for ya?

Look, I am no logician nor do I want to pretend to be one (specially in a forum like this) but to make a good conclusion, you must have some sort of evidence. I could't just say: "I say otherwise because you are wrong." That would be little or NO evidence at all. And please don't make your own definitons of what evidence means.

"Brawl's metagame has less depth than Melee."

How does that work for me? I don't follow, really. But I don't agree with that because it has not been proven. And I don't think that the statement you made is at all relevant with how competitive Brawl is.

*Going off-line* Hope to continue contributing a little bit later on. I'm always up for debate.

 

[Aesir]

Lol it's not contradictory read first post of the thread...>_>

 

[Azuro]

I used to be optimistic about Brawl, but looking at it now, the game is going down the tube. No doubt there's still a competitive spark, but that spark is TINY compared to Melee's now, and I really don't see that changing, unless a ton of new things pop up.

 

[Scar]

Now, please note that competive value is independent of the content present in Melee. Competitive value depends on how many people want to prove themselves in a certain area by competing. At this moment, most people are competing in Brawl and not Melee. Brawl has a much higher level of competitiveness.

This thread was primarily made to stop people from saying exactly what you said right here. "What does competitive really mean?" It is my opinion that what you're talking about is the amount of competition available in both Brawl and Melee. This debate, however, centers around which game is more competitive.

Is it the case that massive combos, which are the depth of Melee, are achievable without the aid of advanced techniques?

Massive combos aren't the depth of Melee, massive combos are just this: If one player makes a bad mistake, they are very vulnerable and will be punished. If the other player is very good at the game and executes very well, he will be able to perform a massive combo.

This is perfect because it shows that the first person made a mistake and the second person is good at the game. Brawl has no such mechanic to punish mistakes and reward actual skill.

Also, combos in general cannot be performed in Brawl. Utilt>utilt>utilt at 0% works a lot, but something as standard as Captain Falcon's fB to an aerial is a viable combo at any percent in Melee, but nearly never works in Brawl, even at 0%, even with uair, CF's fastest aerial.

Evidence? I wanna see how a hypothetical of "Maybe combos and punishment system will happen in the future" is evidence? And the other thing definitely is not evidence as more people simply playing the game competitively does not make the game more competitive.

This has unfortunately been 80% of the evidence for why Brawl is going to be a good competitive fighting game.

 

[Corigames]

I have just said otherwise with evidence.

Is it the case that massive combos, which are the depth of Melee, are achievable without the aid of advanced techniques?

And then you say that with no evidence!

The problem with pulling off combos against people without using ATs is that the people you are trying to combo are using ATs to break out of it. If you don't quicken your lag, better your spacing, etc. you are not going to be very successful, and what's wrong with that? Why should someone who has practiced for days, weeks, or months not do well against someone who hasn't? That's not right!

And combos weren't the depth of melee. It was to be as mobile as possible. You die if you stand still. You get JC grabbed if you just sit in shield. You have to move. Your movement mixed with your spacing, timing, etc. provided you with an arsenal of mindgames, combos, and tactics to employ against your foe. If you weren't fast, didn't watch your spacing, or used moves with lots of lag or weren't L-Canceling, then you got punished, AS YOU SHOULD HAVE!

I don't think I comboed that many people. I played Samus, I PMC on many stages and SWD when I could into a quick jab. I used her excellent WD to keep myself moving around along with her nice Dash Dance. By staying mobile, I could stay away from moves. Then, I could counter my enemies' moves when they misjudged their spacing.

Now here you are saying that the best part, or highest ability, in Melee was to jump on a great character and replay some combos you had stored away in your hole-o-melee. That's BS. You never played melee competitively. What next, are you going to tell me that you can beat me with Fox? I won a couple tournaments with Samus, you want to say I'm lying?

Go play melee and then come back and comment on it. It's very dumb of you to complain about a game you haven't played.

 

[SiegKnight]

Samus melee wd and dashdance was amazing fun. What made her so low tier? Off topic but I'm curious

lack of extensive damage output? bad combos?

 

[Samochan]

The greatest depth in melee comes from it's awesome engine/mechanics, that enables so many options used at any part of the game and thus, superior mobility compared to brawl. Combos and whatever are just side-effect of the engine/mechanics that melee uses.

 

[Zankoku]

Samus melee wd and dashdance was amazing fun. What made her so low tier? Off topic but I'm curious

lack of extensive damage output? bad combos?

Samus was quite floaty, and her projectile ability was often outclassed by the higher tier characters. Her physics made her very comboable by several characters. However, she's not low tier. She's middle tier.

 

[SiegKnight]

Intriguing. I really liked trying her out, since my mem card didn't have Marth or anyone I like unlocked yet cept Falcon and her. If melee ever survives I'll probably use her.

Good to hear she's middle and not low. I loved short hopped l cancelled missiles haha.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Hooray for the last 4 or 5 posts! That was a good summation of melee... A lot of these "pro brawl" (i dont really like that term but what else do i use) fans seem to think that in melee, fox just owns everyone, wavedashing means you win automatically, and combos are preset button combinations. That's all so far from true... ATs are simply tools that you need to utilize to be on equal footing with your opponent. It seems obvious that most of them didn't actually play Melee, or perhaps they just got wrecked by someone who could L-cancel and dashdance and claimed "unfair!!! hand me victory on a silver platter!!! I want to win undeservedly!!!"

Personally, I want to win because I'm the better player, not because a bunch of random crap favored me this time around, or because of some stupid infinite loop. I know that there's skill in Brawl, and I'm pretty good, but I don't really play much because it's just not fun. There's no... intensity. I can't rushdown somebody with a blazing fast offense, I can't space and take advantage when I see an opportunity, and I can't even really use the ledge to my advantage. And my god it's slooooowwwwwwwww. Oh but I can stand still and press B!!! And wait around until my opponent stupidly attacks! I can take dumb risks because I can't really be punished! I can use semi-useful ATs that don't solve the core issues that make the game boring... hooray!

Oh and according to Xerampelinae's logic, the biggest "competitive game" would be the lottery! Cuz OMGZORZ there's SOOOO many people trying to win that it's the greatest competitive game evar!!! OMG LOLZZ!!!!!11

 

[SiegKnight]

I love both of them but I feel stupid because Brawl has the better character movesets, and yet Melee has the better universal gameplay to put character movesets to use. I feel like I'm being teased because I want to play Melee Sonic or Brawl Marth in Melee physics.

 

[thumbswayup]

Oh and according to Xerampelinae's logic, the biggest "competitive game" would be the lottery! Cuz OMGZORZ there's SOOOO many people trying to win that it's the greatest competitive game evar!!! OMG LOLZZ!!!!!11

LOL

For those of you who still think melee is more broken than brawl:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166765

 

[Koga]

This is perfect because it shows that the first person made a mistake and the second person is good at the game. Brawl has no such mechanic to punish mistakes and reward actual skill.

Brawl allows for punishment, just not combo's, its a hit and chasedown game where who ever gets the best read on their opponent wins. That system does reward actual skill in my opinion.

The only possible argument you can make here is that it doesn't punish enough to show how much better one player is than the other. If that's so, thats you're opinion and You lose.

please don't state your opinion as fact

 

[Twin Dreams]

Why do we have to choose one?




Why can't both games progress as they will? Rather, you can't change how they will progress, so why bother debating about it? The more competitive game will progress further than the non-competitive game. All that matters to me are who are holding what tournaments where. I'll gladly show up to any melee/brawl tournament. I'll continue to learn both games.



This isn't Highlander.

 

[thumbswayup]

There can be only one.

 

[Koga]

Why do we have to choose one?




Why can't both games progress as they will? Rather, you can't change how they will progress, so why bother debating about it? The more competitive game will progress further than the non-competitive game. All that matters to me are who are holding what tournaments where. I'll gladly show up to any melee/brawl tournament. I'll continue to learn both games.



This isn't Highlander.

made of Win. There can be more than just one.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Why do we have to choose one?

Why can't both games progress as they will? Rather, you can't change how they will progress, so why bother debating about it? The more competitive game will progress further than the non-competitive game. All that matters to me are who are holding what tournaments where. I'll gladly show up to any melee/brawl tournament. I'll continue to learn both games.

This isn't Highlander.

The problem is that the better competitive game is being suffocated by it's inferior big brother. Newer and shinier is more important to people than substance.

The Melee tourney scene is in serious jeopardy.

 

[curiousthoughtsbear]

Intriguing. I really liked trying her out, since my mem card didn't have Marth or anyone I like unlocked yet cept Falcon and her. If melee ever survives I'll probably use her.

Good to hear she's middle and not low. I loved short hopped l cancelled missiles haha.

LOL little nub go back to the meet and greet section HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now that's what a condescending ******* would say. What I'm going to tell you is for your future benefit.

There is NO such thing as short-hopped l-cancelled missles. Missiles, like lazors, cancel upon landing. Thus what is considered a relatively difficult tech is the Short-Hopped Fast-Fall Missile, abbreviated SHFFM. Doing this consistently and as second-nature is usually an indication of a high degree of tech skill. While I doubt you can do this as I've just stated, I'd be happy to see otherwise (i.e. link to youtube video of you doing the above).

 

[Twin Dreams]

The problem is that the better competitive game is being suffocated by it's inferior big brother. Newer and shinier is more important to people than substance.

The Melee tourney scene is in serious jeopardy.

Which ever one is more competitive will have more tournaments held, since that would mean more people are playing.



I never said which one was better. I don't care which one is better.



I care about WHO are holding WHAT tournaments and WHERE.



that's it. It's simple. I play both, I'll go to melee and brawl tournaments. (I never really played SSB64)


If you don't play both, don't go to brawl/melee. The one who gets more people will move on. The other will be small/die off.

 

[SiegKnight]

LOL little nub go back to the meet and greet section HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now that's what a condescending ******* would say. What I'm going to tell you is for your future benefit.

There is NO such thing as short-hopped l-cancelled missles. Missiles, like lazors, cancel upon landing. Thus what is considered a relatively difficult tech is the Short-Hopped Fast-Fall Missile, abbreviated SHFFM. Doing this consistently and as second-nature is usually an indication of a high degree of tech skill. While I doubt you can do this as I've just stated, I'd be happy to see otherwise (i.e. link to youtube video of you doing the above).

I have no idea but tapping R when I landed as Fox with the laser or Samus with the missile seemed to cancel it slightly quicker. I may have been missing something, because I know l cancel as a technique is meant to apply to mostly A moves. The animation sped up as if doing an l cancel. I'm not sure if Pal is different from Ntsc in this aspect.

I'm no nub since airdodging into the ground and pressing r 1/3 of a second before you hit the ground after an aerial is the easiest crap I've ever had to bother with in a fighting game ever. This is coming from someone who kara cancels in street fighter like its second nature. Thats 5/60th of a second, consistently.

L cancelling dairs and knee's from falcon feels 20598258205820 times easier. If it wasn't for the lack of hitstun and game speed, I'd not even consider the pro melee players arguments valid at all since its still not that technical at all to me.

I may have made a mistake. So what? If you still don't believe me, you can always kill yourself; I would really appreciate it.

 

[Zankoku]

Actually, L-Cancel applies only to aerial A attacks. If you truly did a missile cancel, there should be only a normal landing animation, and if you did a platform missile cancel, no animation at all.

Actually, L-Cancel is not a 1/3 second window. It's a 6/60, or 1/10 second time window. The reason it's sometimes difficult to consistently perform is because hitlag and shieldhitstun from hitting people or shields, respectively, will change the timing.

 

[SiegKnight]

It was still easy as hell to me and felt alot like 1/3 of a second. I know because I did the dair into shine trick thats featured in that vid to test if you did l cancelling or not, and I watched that to research melee before debating its competetivity, as I'm not ignorant and wouldn't argue about a game I don't know even intermediately.

I may be wrong about kara cancels as they might even be 1/60th of a second since I believe they've compared Kazuya's EWGF just frame bull to them in speed for teaching them, and that is practically 1/60th of a second.

Its a backbone of high lv sf play in the way l cancel is, it extends your range by linking one move into another. Kara shoryukens are the deadliest example.

Now if I can do that, I don't see why something as simplistic as L cancel would be even moderately hard.

I'm not dissing the validity of melee's depth, especially since vs a good player I doubt they'd give someone new to it like me any room to breath, but l cancelling is EASY AS HELL.

Wavedashing was a pretty tough cookie to nail when done consecutively, but I was doing it on its own within practically 30 seconds once I got used to the split second gap between pressing Y and df/db+shield. I only had to get the rythym and it wasn't that hard either. If this is technical and you have more issues with these being removed than hitstun or game speed, I'll probably find it an endless source of amusement. (read; funny as hell)

edit - I don't have a vid capture card or I'd show some really amatuer ish dash dancing and kneeing with falcon for the hell of it to show I'm not bull'ing around here, though I laugh at the idea of a community elitist enough to think that stuff is even hard for anyone serious about games.

I do however have yt vids of other complex fighting game stuff done in gameplay by good players of other games I know online/IRL well, and asking them would net answers about if I can do alot of stuff in any game.

 

[Zankoku]

The community isn't elitist enough to think that those are difficult techniques. Wavedashing, dashdancing, and shorthop/fastfall/L-Cancel are among the standard techniques required for competitive play. All of the difficult stuff lies in character specific techniques. See Zelghandi for examples.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kZaEFTm1Yxs

And Phanna Phun for Samus stuff.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9UdlCn5PK7k
Okay, maybe phanna's combo vid is actually more practical.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MYI1Ge0myxo

 

[curiousthoughtsbear]

hmm......and are kara cancels situational ? I.E. dynamic depending upon the context


If so then I'd actually consider that a difficult tech. It's not just the size of the window that determines how difficult a tech is. Even the controller configuration determines how simple or elaborate the tech may be to perform. In my opinion, multi-shines, i.e. multiple JC shines, are easier than SHFFMs and yet the window for a JC shine is so much smaller.

Keep in mind that ssbm is a dynamic fighter, most of your 2-d fighters are simply not that involved regardless of how much tech is involved in execution of what are ultimately Pre-Set combos.

 

[SiegKnight]

Well, the guy quoting me was obviously elitist enough. I actually wasn't sure if it was literally l cancelling, but I got into the habit of pressing r everytime I landed from an aerial, even if I wasn't always spot on. (visible because people turtle on the ground ala Brawl Ganon) If they automatically cancel on the ground, I might've thought they l cancelled. I don't see why the developer didn't B's cancel anyway, because its stupid and restrictive game design typical of nintendo, but whatever.

And yes. Thats where I'd be clueless. I've seen stuff like, Samus's super wavedash and some of the other crap Phanna or Hugs have done in match vids, but I don't know the first thing of how to do them.

I'm certainly nowhere near a pro or intermediate even, and probably never will be as I have no one to play at Melee and the UK scene was made of like, the same 30 people everytime, and now melee's dead.

I was going to say something hilarious to add to this concerning that but its kind of twisted so I won't bother. thread died over 9000 pages ago anyway

 

[SiegKnight]

And yes, its very dynamic. You don't kara anything, thats way too difficult and useless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MocpFP5hw8c

Spoiler

Here. This scratches the very very surface of kara cancels, and their diverse range abuse uses. Very dynamic, and situational, depending on if they expect it or not. Its just another option. She can kara anything from that knee, too.

Thats also one of the easiest ones to kara, Ken can kara shoryukens like, from any move that moves him forward, and it has a much tighter window. Its like you did a shoryuken, but started it two feet from where you are. Makes combos easier when they go too far.

Blanked out so it doesn't drive thread off topic

 

[Zankoku]

You might've missed something in his quote.

LOL little nub go back to the meet and greet section HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now that's what a condescending ******* would say.

 

[curiousthoughtsbear]

Did I not explain what a SHFFM was ? I don't horde information but rather discuss and make it available to others. In the case that assumptions are made about a game that I regard highly then I feel obliged to defend it duly.

SHFFM is a relatively unused and charachter-specific technique anyway......I would say that makes it an elite trick, as in used effectively by only a very small portion of the smash community.

If you would like to learn all the tech in the game and appreciate it for its entirety then persevere and delve some more. One thing I can assure you is that, if like myself and other tech-inspired players, you take great pleasure in developing style and flourish then you'll probably find "higher-level" smash play highly gratifying.



Regarding your second post. I was actually referring to the fact that other fighting games don't have DI and have rather more limited methods of teching/defensive play.
BTW SF games seem lots like GNT4, or rather I should say GNT4 is a lot like SF games. I just really don't see how the traditional fighter has actually advanced over the years other than providing more tech-oriented options within the same framework.
Not to say that that is bad, because honestly that's what I would have liked to see in Brawl. A game almost identical to Melee with more options and greater character/stage diversity. However, ever since the MK series I've just found the traditional fighter boring and overrated. A glorification of old arcade games. That's why when the SSB series first made its debut it appealed to such a wide base of players, it was a sort of revolution in fighting games.


It's too bad that the revolution has taken a down-turn with Sakurai's control of the series. I know SSBM was more influenced by Iwata, but was SSB64 the same >>>>????

P.S. It was Iwata wasn't it ????

 

[TheManaLord]

And yes, its very dynamic. You don't kara anything, thats way too difficult and useless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MocpFP5hw8c

Spoiler

Here. This scratches the very very surface of kara cancels, and their diverse range abuse uses. Very dynamic, and situational, depending on if they expect it or not. Its just another option. She can kara anything from that knee, too.

Thats also one of the easiest ones to kara, Ken can kara shoryukens like, from any move that moves him forward, and it has a much tighter window. Its like you did a shoryuken, but started it two feet from where you are. Makes combos easier when they go too far.

Blanked out so it doesn't drive thread off topic

..... did.... you.... call.... kara.... useless?

I am taking everything you've said out of context and deriving that you know nothing about 3rd Strike. I challenge you to a 10,000$ bout of melee and 3s each.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

anyone who is actually good at melee quickly finds that brawl destroys almost all of the skills you'd worked to attain.

it's pretty much impossible to play both games.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^True. Spacing with Marth has never been so dificult as when trying to play both games. Grr....