Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Dark Sonic]

^^True. Mindgames 2 was better IMO.

And then there's this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw

Higher than Manliest for sure.

 

[Keitaro]

Even more manliness proven here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IkpS_uM5jg

 

[thumbswayup]

This beats everything:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMd5dDP--1s

 

[curiousthoughtsbear]

And I'm completely fine with that. Thing is, I don't know if to specifically agree with you and let it be done with, or find you arrogant and bullheaded in lieu of Scars addition to your views that you aren't neccesarily disagreeing or inclining towards.

He said your efforts were largely fruitless and that this is a drain on your patience; nonsense, I've listened to you and regardless of my love for Brawl came out understanding Melee as the better game; you certainly add way more than needed to convince me for it to seem like a drain on your patience, to me, too.

I'm really not sure on if to just take your posts as they come on their own individually or accept scars imput to them, in which case I think Smash community is a group of undeserving, close minded individuals that don't deserve their game to have improved upon itself in the way Capcom likes to please its fans by improving installment after installment competetively.



This is a quote I purposely extracted from smogon for the sake of reading here, and it applies to a great deal of people I've spoken to from here sans arguably Alpha Zealot, Jack Keiser, but more specifically excluding Cactuar as neither of the former two recognised Brawls flaws while trying to crawl up it.

Ignoring the arrogance of Scars post, Cactuar, I don't think we're neccesarily disagreeing anymore as you shifted the tone of your voice, as stated, and I totally understand your feelings regarding Brawl. I still like defensive and psychologically obsessed games though, and I've never really been good at all out offense; even if its a broken defensive game, I'm probably always going to have more fun with it than any offensive game. If it turns out **** on all serious levels I'll likely get frustrated enough to not really bother, as that is the way of things.

I bring Scars post into this not neccesarily to outpin him as a bad guy - you won't manage that in such a close minded and tightknit community, heaven forbid whatever they do to deserve it - but more because I'm entirely confused on if we're viewed as people clashing swords or just two people intelligently conversing, what with all the posts surrounding yours.

If its really a drain on your patience to explain a few pivotal flaws of Brawls that others haven't really put in such clear context I'd urge you to not bother. I'm sure if the game is that dissatisfying it'll render itself useless to me in the long run. If you're doing it out of your own nature and free time, then I appreciate the enlightenment and welcome it entirely, as thats the only way humans will grow stronger - adapting.

Hmm....... it seems you like it for the very reason that most of the veteran smash community despises the game. But that's just what it seems like.

What it is, is only your own opinion and how one individually feels about playing the game. I play games to hone technique and as a result become better. This is not to say that I don't appreciate those that put function before form. I do, and in most sports, form is developed before function. It' s only later that function is realized and applied by way of strategy.

 

[Cactuar]

At least this thread hasn't gone horribly off topic with stupid youtube spam.

 

[Corigames]

Does anyone else find the new people hilarious.

If you ask them what is wrong with melee, they will tell you the over abundance of AT's, combos, and high tiered characters. They are so hypocritical! Why? I'll tell you.

If you look all over the board, general discussion, tactics, and character specific, for melee stuff, they will tell you everything there is broken or it ruins the game. The second you replace melee with Brawl, it's a whole new ball park. Someone finds a way to slide across the ground in Brawl, they are crowned as king of SWF! It's completely backwards. You can't complain about the AT's of melee while praising those of Brawl!

You can tell this because everytime something amazing is found everyone wants to put there name on it, look into it further, or try to combo with it. They are doing exactly what we did with melee. They are hyping up all the moves, the only difference is, they are also spitting on melee the whole time. It's BS. Why should I have to get yelled at for being a SWD'ing *** hole while some other guy gets paraded around for a theoretical move they are naming, "Gornel?" It's dumb.

So, why? Why do they do it. How can you look at wavedashing and squint you eyes while tipping your hat to wingdashing? I hate you new people. Hate. Loath.

 

[thumbswayup]

Does anyone else find the new people hilarious.

If you ask them what is wrong with melee, they will tell you the over abundance of AT's, combos, and high tiered characters. They are so hypocritical! Why? I'll tell you.

If you look all over the board, general discussion, tactics, and character specific, for melee stuff, they will tell you everything there is broken or it ruins the game. The second you replace melee with Brawl, it's a whole new ball park. Someone finds a way to slide across the ground in Brawl, they are crowned as king of SWF! It's completely backwards. You can't complain about the AT's of melee while praising those of Brawl!

You can tell this because everytime something amazing is found everyone wants to put there name on it, look into it further, or try to combo with it. They are doing exactly what we did with melee. They are hyping up all the moves, the only difference is, they are also spitting on melee the whole time. It's BS. Why should I have to get yelled at for being a SWD'ing *** hole while some other guy gets paraded around for a theoretical move they are naming, "Gornel?" It's dumb.

So, why? Why do they do it. How can you look at wavedashing and squint you eyes while tipping your hat to wingdashing? I hate you new people. Hate. Loath.

This is the best post I have read in quite some time.

 

[shrinkray21]

Does anyone feel like this is the same debate that all pros had when halo 3 came out? The tricks really left and we were all left with just the core of the game as it was intended...and we were unimpressed. I think that if melee never existed, brawl would be perfection (except tripping...I hate tripping so effing much :D)...but since we spent so many years wavedashing and the such, we miss it when its gone.

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

Does anyone else find the new people hilarious.

If you ask them what is wrong with melee, they will tell you the over abundance of AT's, combos, and high tiered characters. They are so hypocritical! Why? I'll tell you.

If you look all over the board, general discussion, tactics, and character specific, for melee stuff, they will tell you everything there is broken or it ruins the game. The second you replace melee with Brawl, it's a whole new ball park. Someone finds a way to slide across the ground in Brawl, they are crowned as king of SWF! It's completely backwards. You can't complain about the AT's of melee while praising those of Brawl!

You can tell this because everytime something amazing is found everyone wants to put there name on it, look into it further, or try to combo with it. They are doing exactly what we did with melee. They are hyping up all the moves, the only difference is, they are also spitting on melee the whole time. It's BS. Why should I have to get yelled at for being a SWD'ing *** hole while some other guy gets paraded around for a theoretical move they are naming, "Gornel?" It's dumb.

So, why? Why do they do it. How can you look at wavedashing and squint you eyes while tipping your hat to wingdashing? I hate you new people. Hate. Loath.

At least now you are recognizing that there are ATs in Brawl.
Wasn't the lack of ATs a major issue for anti-Brawlers? New techs are discovered every day.

 

[arrowhead]

At least now you are recognizing that there are ATs in Brawl.
Wasn't the lack of ATs a major issue for anti-Brawlers? New techs are discovered every day.

yeah, and look at what it's done for the game. still boring to play and watch

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

At least now you are recognizing that there are ATs in Brawl.
Wasn't the lack of ATs a major issue for anti-Brawlers? New techs are discovered every day.

New techs that don't really change the game at all.

Oh wait, infinites, but that only makes the game more exciting right?

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

yeah, and look at what it's done for the game. still boring to play and watch

Skepticism at best...

 

[Gimpyfish62]

it doesn't matter if there are AT's, no AT will possibly change the entire core of the game lol

the lack of advanced tactics is hardly the complaint with brawl

 

[thumbswayup]

How about the AT that renders ness and lucas completely useless now? MUCH more useful than wavedashing, I hated them both from the start.

 

[metalmonstar]

Does anyone else find the new people hilarious.

If you ask them what is wrong with melee, they will tell you the over abundance of AT's, combos, and high tiered characters. They are so hypocritical! Why? I'll tell you.

If you look all over the board, general discussion, tactics, and character specific, for melee stuff, they will tell you everything there is broken or it ruins the game. The second you replace melee with Brawl, it's a whole new ball park. Someone finds a way to slide across the ground in Brawl, they are crowned as king of SWF! It's completely backwards. You can't complain about the AT's of melee while praising those of Brawl!

You can tell this because everytime something amazing is found everyone wants to put there name on it, look into it further, or try to combo with it. They are doing exactly what we did with melee. They are hyping up all the moves, the only difference is, they are also spitting on melee the whole time. It's BS. Why should I have to get yelled at for being a SWD'ing *** hole while some other guy gets paraded around for a theoretical move they are naming, "Gornel?" It's dumb.

So, why? Why do they do it. How can you look at wavedashing and squint you eyes while tipping your hat to wingdashing? I hate you new people. Hate. Loath.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Where did you see all this at? I haven't noticed anything like this. I am new and I can say I loved Melee for everything it had. I considered it the best game ever at the time. Are new people really that bad?

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

New techs that don't really change the game at all.

Oh wait, infinites, but that only makes the game more exciting right?

You see, that is the hypocricy of a few anti-Brawlers. First, they argue that Brawl lacks wavedashing and all sorts of advenced techniques, and therefore makes Brawl inferior to Melee.
Now, we have all these new advanced techniques (this does not include infinites) for Brawl which achieve the effect of wavedashing, etc. and that is still not satisfactory?

 

[Zankoku]

Advanced techs were not what made Brawl inferior.

An overall lack of speed and ability to follow up on practically anything, along with the newly discovered "techniques" of easy-to-perform infinites, is what makes Brawl inferior.

 

[Kio Iranez]

ATs in Brawl don't matter if hitstun and shielding make it hard to approach. No matter what we find, the physics of the game won't change and it will forever be uneventful and boring...compared to Melee.

Edit: dayum, I'm a slow poster. =P

 

[arrowhead]

You see, that is the hypocricy of a few anti-Brawlers. First, they argue that Brawl lacks wavedashing and all sorts of advenced techniques, and therefore makes Brawl inferior to Melee.
Now, we have all these new advanced techniques (this does not include infinites) for Brawl which achieve the effect of wavedashing, etc. and that is still not satisfactory?

no because that's not the issue in the first place. it's the game mechanics that's the biggest problem

but i do like how you acknowledge "a few anti-brawlers" and then encompass all "anti-brawlers" in your accusation

 

[BIG C]

rofl wavedashing wasn't even that important when you find something that makes it safe to attack a shield talk to me. or when you find a guaranteed combo that isn't like one move that hits multiple times or isn't an infinite thing or perhaps something to add hitstun. any of these things would make brawl just a little bit more acceptable for competition. so you can form an offense that isn't based around playing defensively.

 

[thumbswayup]

You see, that is the hypocricy of a few anti-Brawlers. First, they argue that Brawl lacks wavedashing and all sorts of advenced techniques, and therefore makes Brawl inferior to Melee.
Now, we have all these new advanced techniques (this does not include infinites) for Brawl which achieve the effect of wavedashing, etc. and that is still not satisfactory?

Name one.

10char

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

it doesn't matter if there are AT's, no AT will possibly change the entire core of the game lol

the lack of advanced tactics is hardly the complaint with brawl

Lol, I've heard otherwise.

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

Name one.

10char

You are kidding? I'll just obey (I assume you never visit the character boards which are filled with all sorts of trivial and advanced techs.)

Mortar Slide
Glide Toss

There. Two basic spacing techs.

But, look, let me put things this way:

Comboing is the major issue. Ok. And advanced techs no longer matter. Alright, I get that too.

Is it the case that massive combos, which are the depth of Melee, are achievable without the aid of advanced techniques?

 

[arrowhead]

You are kidding? I'll just obey (I assume you never visit the character boards which are filled with all sorts of trivial and advanced techs.)

Mortar Slide
Glide Toss

There. Two basic spacing techs.

But, look, let me put things this way:

Comboing is the major issue. Ok. And advanced techs no longer matter. Alright, I get that too.

Is it the case that massive combos, which are the depth of Melee, are achievable without the aid of advanced techniques?

LOL you think those two techniques can replace the mobility granted by wavedashing?

the only advanced tech we complain about is L-cancelling. seriously, stop lying

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Name one.

[========================*Contents*========================]

1. True AT's - techniques all characters can do, genuinely useful exploits and tricks.

2. General Discoveries - game mechanics that have an effect on how it will be played or can be used to the player's advantage.

3. Useful Lists - Just that, a collection of lists that players will find useful.

4. Helpful Threads - Complex concepts, ideas, or game mechanics explained eloquently by their original posters.

5. Character-Specific AT's and Glitches - Special techniques that can be performed only by certain characters.

6. Misc. Known Glitches - Glitches that are so esoteric that they have no effect on normal play, but can be recreated for entertainment value.


[========================*True AT's*========================]


- Fox-Trotting
How to Perform: Do an initial dash, then do another immediately afterward without any running. Can be repeated many times in a row.
Effect: Character does several initial dashes. A component of the True Pivot, useful for little else as it exacerbates the probability of tripping.

- Jump-Canceled Up-Smash
How to Perform: While running, press a Jump button immediately before inputting an up-smash.
Effect: Character slides forward while performing an Up-smash. Up-smash can be charged. Distance varies by character.

- Reverse Jump-Canceled Up- Smash
How to Perform: While running, press the opposite direction you're running on the joystick, then quickly rotate it into an up-smash.
Effect: Character slides in the same direction as the initial run, turns around, and does an Up-Smash.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164980

- Smash-Boosting (a.k.a. Snake Dashing, etc)
How to Perform: Initiate a dash attack, then do an up-smash during the beginning of the dash attack animation. Timing differs for each character.
Various Methods: C-stick down to initiate dash attack, then Up+Z to do the up-smash; C-stick down, C-stick up; A-button, C-stick up.
Effect: Character slides an absurd distance while simultaneously performing an Up-smash. Up-smash can be charged. Distance traveled varies by character, but is more pronounced than the Jump-Canceled Up-Smash. Most noticeable with Snake.
Can be done with anybody, but the following characters benefit best from this: Jigglypuff, Sheik, Link, Wario, Snake, Falco and Wolf

- Item-Boosting (a.k.a. Bomb Sliding)
How to Perform: Same as Smash-Boosting. Initiate a dash attack, then do an up-smash during the beginning of the dash animation.
Effect: Both similar and vastly different from Glide-Tossing. The character slides forward and throws the item forward at the same time, but does a false upwards throwing animation. If you want to throw the item upwards instead, time the dash attack and up-smash so that they're nearly simultaneous.
OP: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161790

- True Pivot
How to Perform: After a dash (preferably during a Fox-Trot), start a 2nd initial dash. Before the second dash animation begins, move the joystick in the opposite direction you're dashing and perform any move. C-stick can be used instead of a rapid joystick reversal and makes the Pivot-Smashing much easier.
Effect: Character stops in place, turns around, and uses the move you input. Different from the Melee Pivot in that it is less versatile and can only be performed out of an initial dash.

- Dash Pivot Cancel (by Panda)

This AT is performed by dashing, then performing a pivot, but holding forward a little bit after the pivot. Its different for every character, but while you turn around and start moving forward, there is a window that you can cancel the pivot into a something (I usually do it with forward smash or down smash, although it also works to some extent with tilts). Here is where the Dash Pivot Cancel gets interesting. With the right timing, after pivoting and moving forward just a bit, do a forward smash in the opposite direction (its easiest to see with the Fsmash IMO), and your character will perform a slide while smashing!

OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165720
Video 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZg0f8RTMOg
Video 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNyJQLOBP1M

- Pivot Sliding
How to Perform:[img= [url]http://trashpile.net/upload/pivotslide.gif][/url]
Effect: Character slides forward visibly and performs the move you entered on the pivot. This can be any smash (via c-stick) or a Tilt (just press A after the pivot).
Video: http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=t6jdzQteqiA
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160785

- Pivot Grab
How to Perform: While running, press Shield + A + backwards (on the joystick) or Grab + Backwards simultaneously.
Effect: Character turns 180 degrees and does a backwards-aimed Grab while sliding in the direction of the initial run.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161942. Also in a Dojo Update.

- Glide Tossing
How to Perform: Initiate any roll while holding an item, then throw the item before the roll animation begins. You can use the C-stick to throw the item in any of the four cardinal directions instead of just pressing A for a forward throw.
Effect: Character slides in the direction of the would-be roll and tosses the item. Distance traveled differs based on character and several other factors. See "In-Depth Analysis" link for variations and distances.
OP:http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141858
In-depth analysis: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154982

- Jump-Canceled Throw
How to Perform: While running with an item in hand, Jump immediately before performing a throw.
Effect: Character slides forward and throws the item. Using the C-stick, the item can be thrown in any direction. The advantage of the JC Throw is that post-throw lag seems to be slightly decreased.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=151589

- SHAD'ing (an example of Input Buffering; see General Discoveries)
How to Perform: During any jump, Air-Dodge late enough that you will touch the ground while still in the Air-Dodge animation. Just before you land, input any move. Originally done during a Short Hop, hence the name.
Effect: Character lands, performs move on the exact frame it becomes possible. This abuses the buffering system to do fast attacks on landing, preceded by a few invincibility frames.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156287

- Turnaround B
How to Perform: In the air, tap the joystick in the opposite direction you are facing, release, then perform a Neutral B.
Effect: Character continues moving in the same direction as when the jump began, but fires off a Neutral B in the opposite direction traveled.
OP: Has been in since Melee. If anyone was first to verify the Turnaround B's existence in Brawl, PM me with the thread link for credit.

- B-Reversal
How to Perform: Enter the input for any B-move, then slam the joystick in the opposite direction your character is facing before the animation begins. Can be done with all types of specials, not just Neutral B, but not all specials can be reversed. A list of compatible moves can be found in the Lists section of this post.
Effect: Character's horizontal momentum is completely canceled/reversed, character faces opposite direction, B-move executes. Can be used during dashes and jumps for easy pivoting too.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155369

- Recoil Special (a.k.a. B-sticking)
How to Perform: In the air, B-Reverse a Turnaround B or a backwards side-B. This is more easily accomplished by pushing the joystick forward and the C-stick backwards with the C-stick set to Specials.
Effect: Character's horizontal momentum is completely canceled/reversed, character stays facing the same direction, B-move executes. Can be used to space projectile approaches.
OP: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152409
More info: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152815

- Speed Hugging (two methods)
How to Perform (method 1): Run toward the edge, then quarter-circle the joystick from Down to Back as soon as you walk off of the edge.
How to Perform: (method 2) Run/walk/roll to the very edge of the stage. Then, very quickly press diagonally down and away from the stage's center on the joystick. Easiest to do while facing into the stage's center, but can also be done easily while running if you press diagonally down-forward just as you reach the edge.
Effect: Character drops immediately off of the platform and sweet-spots the ledge.
Method 1 OP+Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsPU6nCm5iI (2:26)
Method 2 OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164732

- Craq Walking
How to Perform: While jumping, DI such that your character is moving backwards. Continue holding the joystick as your character touches the ground and completes a pivot, then release.
Effect: Character slides a good distance backwards, varying based on which character is being used. During this time, the character is counted as "walking," allowing you to do any attack in any direction. You may also hold the joystick after the pivot to continue into a walk.

[=====================*General Discoveries*=====================]

- "Auto-Canceling" aerials
L-Canceling is gone, but there exists a common-sense trick for eliminating lag after your aerials. Simply perform an aerial such that the majority of the attack's animation is over when you touch the ground. Each move has different timing (there's probably a relationship between this and IASA frames), but with practice, "Auto-Canceling" should become second nature.

- Auto-Land/Platform Canceling
How to Perform: On a stage with a platform that moves vertically (Lylat Cruise, etc), position your character below the platform. As it is moving up, jump, then press down on the joystick when your character is approximately level with the platform. Then, immediately release down and enter any command. Smashes best performed with the C-stick.
OP: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157059
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK16zTBzIQQ

- Auto-RAR
How to Perform: With your C-stick set to specials, dash and hit the C-stick in the opposite direction.
Effect: Character does a short-hop and automatically turns around. Easy to transition into an approaching barrage of B-airs, hence the name Auto-RAR (Reverse Aerial Rush).
OP: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152409

- Drifting Aerials and Specials
If a character tries to perform any momentum-altering aerial after they're hit into the air, the move's momentum-altering properties will not take effect. This mechanic may be in place to prevent characters with Falcon Kick-style D-airs (and other momentum-stoppers) from being ridiculously hard to kill.

- Early Jump After Hit-Stun
After being launched by an opponent's attack, you can do aerials, air-dodges, and z-airs immediately after hit-stun, but must wait an extra period before you're able to jump and use B-moves. To shorten the wait, initiate an air-dodge the instant the hit-stun ends. This will enable you to jump or use your B-moves earlier than normal for most characters.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166142

- Edge Popping
Carried over from Melee. For those who don't know, Edge Popping is a term used for preventing your character from sweet-spotting a ledge. Simply hold Down on the joystick when passing through the ledge's sweet-spot area. Your character will not grab the ledge as normal, but will pass it completely uninterrupted.

- Hyphen Smash
How to Perform: While running, simply perform an up-smash.
Effect: Same as a Jump-Canceled Up-smash. Character slides forward while doing an up-smash, which can be charged. Distance traveled appears to be equal for both techniques.

- Input Buffering System and Uses
Brawl has a unique input buffering system that allows you to input moves before they are able to be executed. There are various times at which you can buffer attacks, including landing on the ground, during Air Dodges, after Jabs, etc. However you do it, buffering has but one purpose - to minimize the time between when a move becomes possible and when you perform the move. Buffering allows you to perform every move at the start of the IASA frames of the move before it, thus achieving optimum combo speed consistently when speed is critical. This does not cancel post-attack animation lag, but HUMAN lag.
Applications: Canceling Jab Combos (esp. into Luigi's sweet-spotted Up-B), SHAD'ing, Thunder Storming, etc.
In-Depth Buffering Guide: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167109

- Jab Locks
Much like Falco's Laser Lock (see Falco section below). If an opponent is knocked and fails to tech (or otherwise escape the floor bounce), 14 characters can catch said opponent in a jab chain. A Jab Lock is performed by (1) knocking an opponent down, (2) jabbing an opponent, (3) WALKING up to that opponent, and (4) repeating steps 2&3 until the edge of the stage is reached. See video link in OP for the list of characters and a demonstration of the procedure.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161938
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIP7QY0anuw

- Meteor Cancel
Meteor Canceling, or the ability to recover from being spiked, has been carried over to Brawl. When the hit-stun of a spike ends, you can begin your recovery with a double jump (provided you weren't spiked out of your double-jump) or an Up-B. More details about Meteor Canceling can be found at OP.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166325

- Sliding Shields
Unlike Melee, if you shield while running, your character will slide across the ground while the running momentum is gradually negated. This is useful because it enables…

- Shield-Canceled Sliding Grabs
Jump-cancelled grabs have been ousted for Brawl, but Shield-Canceled Sliding Grabs are a fine replacement. Simply press the Shield button while running, then press A or Z to perform your standing grab. You can press A or Z before the shield even appears for a speedy Sliding Grab, or continue to hold the shield up and slide into position for a grab.

- Tether Hogging
All Tether recoveries can be easily gimped by simply edge-hogging. The tether attack will connect with the edge-hogger, but will never touch the ledge.

- Wall Clinging (character-specific)
Only possible with certain characters, the Wall Cling is performed by holding the joystick towards a wall while jumping at it. Yuna has written a comprehensive thread about Wall Clinging, from the basic mechanics, to who can do it, to the tiniest of subtleties. His guide can be found at the link below.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142700

[======================*Useful Lists*======================]

List of B-Reversal/Recoil Special Compatible Moves
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166774

List of Character Weights (by M2K)
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162374

List of Chain Grabs (revived)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158858

List of Spikes
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163968

List of Super Armors [newer version]
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163775

List of Tripping Moves (hard to decode through the sarcasm, but still useful)
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=149978

List of Suicides
Diddy Kong – Side-B (opponent off platform)
Ganondorf – Side-B (opponent off platform)
Bowser – Side-B (opponent on edge)
Kirby – Neutral B (opponent on edge; esp. if Kirby is already off the platform)
Dedede – Neutral B (opponent on edge; esp. if DeDeDe is already off the platform)
Wario – Neutral B (opponent off platform OR Wario off platform, opponent on edge)
Donkey Kong – Cargo Throw (opponent on edge, must be high %)

[======================*Helpful Threads*======================]


The C-Stick Compendium
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156176

Dark Peach's Anti-Camping Thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161145&highlight=sick+camping

How "Catching the Cypher" Actually Works
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163346

In-Depth Look at Brawl's Buffering System
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167109

Keep Losing? Try This...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160643

Mechanics of Tripping
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162850

Panda's Links to In-Depth Game Analysis/Info Threads
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162447

Samus/ZSS Taunt Transformation Details
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155697
Dojo Entry

[===============*Character-Specific AT's and Glitches*===============]

[Multiple]

- Airwalk (Wario, Jigglypuff, Bowser, G&W, Kirby)
How to Perform: Run off of any platform edge and immediately press and hold the joystick in the opposite direction you were just running.
Effect: Character runs off of the edge and returns to the platform without falling or sweet-spotting. The characters listed can use this time to perform certain aerials (specified at OP).
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165952

- Crawl Dashing (Yoshi, Pikachu, ZSS, Snake, Squirtle, Ivysaur)
How to Perform: Jump forward, then upon landing, rotate the joystick from down to down-back and very quickly release.
Effect: Character slides backwards for a portion, depending on your timing for releasing the joystick. Most visible/effective with Yoshi.
OP: www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165284

– D-air Stall (Toon Link, ZSS, Shiek, G&W; any character with a similar d-air)
How to Perform: After being knocked into the air, do a Double Jump and a D-air at the exact same time.
Effect: Character will execute a D-air and get stuck in the air. Neither moving upward nor downward, the character stays at the same altitude until the D-air expires. However, you can DI horizontally during this time to influence the direction of your fall.
Video: http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=BnRmDoJm0VI

- Glide Landing Cancel (Pit, Charizard, Meta Knight)
How to Perform: Initiate a Glide Recovery, approach the ground at any angle, then execute your Glide Attack just before touching the ground.
Effect: Character lands on his feet with zero lag frames. Landing animations are completely skipped.

- Illusion Cancels (Fox, Falco, Wolf)
How to Perform: After initiating an Illusion, press B before the horizontal movement portion begins. Timing varies by character.
Effect: The Illusion will travel a fraction of its normal distance before it cancels and becomes no longer "aggressive." Wolf has 3 variations depending on timing. Wolf will continue to travel horizontally after his Illusion cancels, while Fox and Falco largely stop moving sideways.

- On-Absorb/On-Reflect Cancels (Fox, Wolf, Ness, Lucas)
How to Perform: As soon as a projectile connects with your character's reflector/Psi Magnet, press Jump, left, right, or down.
Effect: Your character will reflect/absorb the projectile, then jump, roll, or side-step dodge immediately. This cancels out the lag time from releasing Reflectors and Psi Magnets.

- Stutter Step (Ganondorf, Sonic, Captain Falcon, Mario)
How to Perform: Initiate an Initial Dash in the direction you want to F-smash, then (1) VERY QUICKLY press the opposite direction you are travelling on the joystick and (2) do an F-smash in the direction you were originally facing.
Effect: This makes the character slide forward slightly before performing his F-smash, thereby extending it. To do a shorter-range version, leave out the initial dash at the beginning. More characters can do this, but the four listed are the ones for which this is most useful.

- Tether Saves (any Tether Recover character)
How to Perform: When hit across a platform by a horizontal kill move, DI downwards, and as soon as the hit-stun frames end, perform your tether recovery. If your character's tether recovery is a B-move, air-dodging first will enable you to perform it earlier than usual. Z-air tether recoveries do not need to airdodge, though, as Z-airs can be performed at any time you can air-dodge.
Effect: If you had enough time to complete the z-air before passing too far away from the edge, you'll tether-recover onto the platform. This can enable Tether-Recoverers to survive twice as long as normal.

[Bowser]

– Infinite Claw Jump
How to Perform: Do a Side-B on descent such that you would touch the ground during its animation. Just before touching the ground, press Jump. The Jump press can be done at any time during the Side-B animation, including the first frame.
Effect: Bowser uses a double-jump, even if he doesn't have one left. He can chain this infinitely to remain in the air as long as he wants. If entered at the same time as the Claw Jump, he can complete four moves in the air before Claw Jumping again – U-air, N-air, F-air, and Side-B.
Example: Bowser can Claw Jump -> U-Air -> Claw Jump -> N-air -> Claw Jump -> F-air -> etc. without ever touching the ground.

[Diddy Kong]

– Pop-Gun Cancel
How to Perform: Draw the Pop-Gun, then press Shield or Grab before the gun is fully charged (Diddy will begin to shake when the gun is charged). Can be done in the air or on the ground.
Effect: Diddy draws the Pop-Gun, then either Shields, Grabs, or Air Dodges depending on what you input. Note that if you cancel the pop-gun in the air during the first few (3?) frames, you will not air-dodge.
OP: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155266

– Safe Sweet-Spotting
How to Perform: If you're on a stage with an FD or Battlefield-like edge, double-jump underneath the edge such that you're pressing into the bottom of the platform and moving towards the center. Then, do a Side-B back towards the edge you're trying to grab.
Effect: Diddy will move along the curve of the platform, then sweet-spot the ledge when you arrive at it.

– Smash Banana
How to Perform: Execute a Down-B to draw a banana with the same joystick speed you would use to perform a D-smash.
Effect: Banana is thrown twice as high and a little bit farther than if it were plucked via a "tilted" Down-B.
OP: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155266

[Donkey Kong]

– F-air Boost on World 1-2 blocks
How to Perform: On World 1-2, do an F-air against a column of breakable blocks with DK's chest against any of the blocks (preferably above the bottom block). Hold the Joystick in the direction of the blocks as the F-air executes.
Effect: DK rockets to the top of the column and breaks any blocks that may stop him from getting to the top of the stage. Can only be done on breakable blocks, so it can only be done on World 1-1 and 1-2.

– Stage-spike cargo throw
How to Perform: Grab an opponent who is standing near (or on) the edge of the stage, then enter the Cargo Throw Carry. Fall off the edge, then throw your opponent into the stage edge you just fell off of.
Effect: Opponent ricochets off of the stage, then falls to their doom. Most effective against high-% opponents (tough to struggle out at high-%) and on stages like Final D and Battlefield.

[Falco]

- Laser Lock
How to Perform: If an opponent is knocked and bounces off of the floor, catch them with a Laser before they move.
Effect: If Falco catches his opponent and spams the Laser continuously, the opponent is carried off the edge of the stage by an inescapable lock. However, this does not kill unless you're on a stage with a walk-off edge. Due to the rarity of floor bounces (all can be avoided by either teching or doing an air-dodge/aerial after being hit), the use of Laser Locking is extremely limited.
Video: http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=hwaa_Lt9sqQ

[Fox]

– Curved Firefox
How to Perform: Begin a Firefox, but instead of aiming in any of the eight primary directions, position the joystick between the Up and Up-Left directions or between Up and Up-Right.
Effect: Fox will move Up-Left or Up-Right, but in an arc instead of a straight line. This can save Fox's life if he's caught under a stage, like the Final Destination Ledge.

– Helicopter Kicks
How to Perform: Do any jump and enter an F-air before you reach the peak of your jump. Continue to hold Jump.
Effect: The F-air's Hovering effect provides Fox with extra vertical distance. Fox's double-jump, if helicopter-kicked, has an especially noticeable increase in height.

– Hovering F-air
How to Perform: Do a Short-Hop and enter an F-air before you reach the peak of your jump. You should release Jump as soon as possible, before he even leaves the ground. C-stick the F-air for best results.
Effect: Fox rises off the ground a little bit and does an F-air. While doing the F-air, his vertical momentum is completely neutral, like when Peach floats, and he can move left and right as well.

– Jump-Canceled Shine ("Wave-Shine" re-born)
How to Perform: Jump, then immediately input a Shine before/just as you leave the ground.
Effect: Fox performs a very low-to-the-ground Shine with very little lag afterwards. This can be used during running to mimic the Wave-Shine. However, it is not as good at chaining as the Melee original.

[Ganondorf]

- Thunder Storming
How to Perform: Jump and enter a D-air before Ganondorf leaves the ground.
Effect: The D-air will execute the moment Ganondorf rises into the air. Because the entire attack executes before he lands, Ganondorf can rapidly Short-Hop this move repeatedly. Captain Falcon can do this too, but his D-air is not as effective.

[Ice Climbers]

- De-synch

Simply dash dance back and forth once, then do an action. Nana should be recovering from a dash as you do an attack.

OP: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=140981
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsmjtD9E2gg
More De-Synchs: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163483

– Infinites
How to Perform: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4
Effect: A series of superior combos with the Ice Climbers, from difficult-to-escape moves to inescapable chains.

[Jigglypuff]

- Rising Pound
How to Perform: While in the air, input a Side-B to begin Pound. After the input is registered, but before the attack begins, rotate the joystick to Up.
Effect: Jigglypuff's Pound will move her diagonally up and to the side instead of purely horizontally. This dramatically extends Jigglypuff's recovery distance if done repeatedly and can be used at high altitudes to stall the match.

[Lucario]

- "SHUFFL" D-air
How to Perform: On the ground, do a Jump, followed immediately by a D-air.
Effect: Lucario completes a D-air extremely close to the ground then lands with zero lag. Can be repeated rapidly. Because of the hovering property of the move, he neither rises nor falls throughout the duration of the attack.
OP: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=140957

[Lucas]

Except for PK Thunderslide, all of the following techniques can be found in the Lucas AT Guide. PK Thunderslide goes as far back as SSB64, but is included nonetheless.

- Magnet Boost/P.K. Waveland
How to Perform: While traveling in the air, do a PK Fire in the opposite direction Lucas is traveling and immediately pull out a Psi Magnet.
Effect: Lucas shoots sideways very quickly while facing "backwards." Often used as a recovery.

– Magnet Dash
How to Perform: While running, press Jump and immediately pull out a Psi Magnet.
Effect: Lucas slides across the ground in the direction he's running while holding the Psi Magnet. Can be used for catching opponents with a Psi-magnet attack.

– PK Fire retreat
How to Perform: Run, then jump while holding the direction you want to travel. Execute a PK Fire in the OPPOSITE direction you're traveling such that the lightning bolt leaves Lucas' hands just as the jump peaks. As soon as the PK Fire animation begins, move the joystick back to the direction you're traveling.
Effect: Lucas shoots a PK Fire backwards, which accelerates him forwards. This makes for a handy defensive retreat.

– PK Thunderslide (also possible with [Ness])
How to Perform: Run toward the edge of any platform. Just before you go off the edge, execute a PK Thunder 1.
Effect: Your character should slide off the edge while PK Thundering. This enables your character to enter PK Thunder 2 faster than usual by sliding into the arc of your guided PK Thunder 1. Angling the PK Thunder 2 is tricky, and timing for both the slide and angling differs based on whether you're using Ness or Lucas (Lucas slides more). With work, this can be very useful.

– Zap Jump
How to Perform: Enter a PK Fire at almost the exact same time as a double-jump (ever-so-slightly afterwards).
Effect: Lucas rockets upward to about twice the height of a normal double-jump. He can also do this by throwing items at the same time as a double-jump.

[Peach]

- D-tilt Backdash
How to Perform: Peach's d-tilt can be said to have two movement phases - she leans forward, then moves "backward" until standing straight again. While she's moving backwards, perform any attack (or jump) to cancel the D-tilt.
Effect: Peach performs the attack while sliding backwards or does a "standing jump" with backward momentum. The later you cancel the d-tilt (without it ending), the more momentum she will gain.

– Pseudo-Pillar

Last thing I found out is that Peach can somewhat pillar. You Instant float, Nair and land and repeat.

– Pseudo-Wavedash (a.k.a. "bubble dash")
How to perform: Jump and immediately hit Air Dodge while holding down-left or down-right.
Effect: Peach slides a little bit to the left or right, then faces the direction you were holding and does a stationary shield. Can be done in rapid succession or at the end of a run as a sort of pivot.

- Turnip Free-Pull
How to Perform: With your C-stick set to Specials, turn around while standing, then follow up by pressing Down on the B-stick.
Effect: While Peach draws the turnip, the player can freely move Peach left or right. This is also possible without changing your control scheme, but is MUCH harder.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164836
Video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=S1r8EGVLwbI

[Pikachu]

- Quick-Attack Cancel
How to Perform: Do a Quick Attack into the ground. Can be your first or second Quick Attack and can be performed at any downward angle.
Effect: When Pikachu hits the ground, there will be a brief period, during which you can do anything you normally would after a single jump. So far, the only attacks that do not cause him to go into a normal landing animation are his d-air and B-moves.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=151405

- QAC Infinite Jump (a.k.a. Quick Attack Flash)
How to Perform: Do a QAC. Can be chained infinitely, like Bowser and Sonic's infinite Jumps.
Effect: Pikachu can do as many double-jumps, aerials, and Quick Attacks as he wants. He can do any aerial except b-air and continue the chain. Another application with mindgame potential is breaking the Jump early with another QAC. If done close enough to the ground, it'll look like several forward Quick Attacks, but faster.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=151405

- Quick-Attack Double-Forward
How to Perform: On the ground, do a Quick Attack and hold the joystick left or right. Then, for the direction of the second Quick Attack, move the joystick to down-left or down-right, depending on which direction you're facing.
Effect: Pikachu does both phases of Quick Attack in the same direction.

- Quick-Attack Thunder Cancel
How to Perform: While on the ground, perform a Quick Attack left or right. At any point in the Quick Attack, execute a down-B.
Effect: Pikachu stops his Quick Attack and performs Thunder.

[Pit]

All of these techniques can be found in The Pit Compendium, along with the "UndrWorld" series by UndrDog.

*Arrow Life-Span Note*
It's important to know that the player retains control of Pit's arrows as long as they are on the stage, not just on the screen. One Pit may also keep up to four arrows in play at the same time. These two properties are what allow Pit's arrow-based techniques to work.

- Arrow Looping
How to Perform: After shooting an arrow, slowly rotate the joystick in a complete circle. There must be no obstacles in the way of the arrow at any point in the circle.
Effect: Pit's arrow will complete a wide circle. After Pit puts away his bow, he will move in response to the same joystick movements directing the arrow's arc.The timing takes practice, but Pit can loop the same arrow several times in a row.

- Arrow Looping Application - Arrow Chasing
How to Perform: Loop an arrow, then release it from its circular arc in your opponent's direction. Once the arrow is released, chase after it with Pit.
Effect: Opponent is forced to either (1) shield, (2) dodge, or (3) get hit by the arrow. Once the arrow has run its course, the Pit player is next to his shield-stunned, dodging, or hit-stunned opponent, set up for a near-guaranteed hit.

- Arrow Looping Application - Arrow Swarming
How to Perform: Loop one or more arrows continuously.
Effect: A large portion of the stage area is now covered by arrow arcs, making them unsafe for the opponent.

- Arrow Looping Application - Arrow Blitzing
How to Perform: Loop several arrows continuously, like in Arrow Swarming. Then, release them all simultaneously in your opponent's direction.
Effect: A hail of arrows approaches the opponent at once. Can be followed up with Arrow Chasing.

– Norfair glitch
How to Perform: When the horizontal column of Lava approaches the center of the stage, jump into it while holding out the Mirror Shield. Continue to press into the Lava Column and hold the mirror shield after the initial touch.
Effect: Pit will stay inside the lava unharmed for a LONG TIME before finally getting kicked out. If you time your entrance correctly, the lava will recede before Pit takes any damage.

- Wing Canceling
How to Perform:

Jump, and as soon as you leave the ground(like a wavedash): UpB, Then quickly do any aerial and fastfall.

Effect:

What will end up happening is that Pit will shoot just slightly into the air and the aerial will cancel out the UpB in a way that you could literally "Wing Cancel"

[Rob]

– Not Quite Wing Canceling

During ROBs up-b, as long as you hold it, you're still able to attack via the A button.

[Samus]

– Bomb Jumping
How to perform: While in the air, lay a bomb, then drop another bomb while aligned vertically with the first bomb.
Effect: The bomb explosion propels Samus upward or diagonally upward. This can be repeated several times in a row to aid in recovery, especially if you smash-DI explosions in addition to positioning Samus.

- Missile Canceling
How to perform: While descending in the air, fire a missile such that you touch the ground immediately after the missile leaves Samus' arm cannon.
Effect: The post-attack lag from firing the missile is completely erased. A common follow-up is to fire another missile to create a small projectile barrage.

[Snake]

– C4 Jumping
How to Perform: After using your Cypher, stabilize your horizontal momentum. Hold Down and spam B to drop your C4 and detonate it.
Effect: The C4 explosion shoots Snake upward and allows him to use his Cypher again. If you don't stabilize your horizontal momentum first, the exploding C4 will give you horizontal momentum too or miss you altogether.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162635

– Explosive Linking
How to Perform: Place a C4 and Proximity Mine relatively close to each other. The Proximity Mine should be within the C4's blast radius.
Effect: When you detonate the C4, the Proximity Mine will also explode. This can make excellent explosive traps, both horizontally (C4 near stage's edge, Prox Mine a little further inward) and vertically (C4 on the platform above the Prox Mine for maximum reliability). Be creative with the placement!
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162635

- Faux Super-Armor
If Snake is holding his opponent in a grab, he is not knocked back by a grenade explosion. However, this will only occur if the Snake's controller port is a number AFTER the grab victim's.
Example: P1, P2, and P3 are all Snake. P1 will never get FSA in the match, P2 will only get FSA when grabbing P1, and P3 will get FSA no matter who he grabs.
OP/Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HavRK1QwNJA

– Grenade Cooking
How to Perform: Take out a grenade with B. Shield while holding B to drop the grenade, then pick it up.
Effect: In short, the grenade is now treated as a regular item. This opens up a lot of options for Snake. Snake can perform other moves while holding the grenade, run down its 3-second timer, time the grenade throw as he pleases, toss it, or side-step/air-dodge the explosion of a held grenade. OP has lots of applications.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162635

- Grenade Stripping
If your opponent picks up your thrown grenade, you can force it out of their hands regardless of their position relative to you. Simply pull out another grenade with B and shield. This will cause the grenade in your hand to drop AND loose the other grenade from your opponent's hands as well.
OP: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157592

- Infinite Grab
How to Perform: Grab an opponent who is close to/on the edge while you are facing towards the edge. Do a down-throw, then grab again as soon as the first down-throw animation ends.
Effect: When Snake does the down-throw, the opponent's body will lie down, then fall instantly off of the edge and eventually into a sweet-spot. During the beginning of this transition, Snake can grab his opponent's head again with no fear of his opponent retaliating or escaping.
OP: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163447
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs6sxaAJpiM

[Sonic]

- Down-B to F-Smash
How to Perform: On a stage with a large slope (Green Hill Zone, Yoshi's Island Melee, etc), perform a Down-B up-hill towards the slope. When you're on the slope, Jump to cancel the spin dash and execute an F-smash. Hard to do with the joystick, easy with the C-stick.
Effect: Sonic will go straight from a spin dash into an F-smash with no lag in between.
OP/Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsPU6nCm5iI

- Homing Cancel
How to Perform: Press B to initiate a homing attack, then press B again about halfway through the rising windup.
Effect: The Homing Attack stops winding up and goes into the attack portion early.
OP/Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsPU6nCm5iI

- Homing Stall
How to Perform: Do a Homing Attack against the bottom of any solid stage platform or block, where "solid" means "cannot be dropped through."
Effect: Sonic will hit the platform/block and move sideways slightly while pressed against it briefly before falling. This can be used to cross under stages or repeated continuously to stall the match.
OP/Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsPU6nCm5iI

– Infinite Side-B Jump
How to Perform: Same as the Bowser Infinite Claw Jump (see above), except you must be near the ground during the beginning of the Side-B.
Effect: Same as the Bowser Infinite Claw Jump. Because his jump is higher and his aerials are quicker, he can use any aerial during the jump (except D-air) and continue to Infinite Jump.

– Side-B Slope Glitch
How to Perform: On a platform with a downward sloped edge (like that on Picto-Chat), roll to the edge and face away it. Then, charge your Side-B and release.
Effect: Sonic shoots across the stage faster than usual and commits suicide. Nothing useful, just a glitch.

- Spin Jump
How to Perform: Initiate a Side-B, then jump to cancel it immediately after releasing the charge.
Effect: Sonic jumps much farther and at a lower angle than either his jump or double jump. This can be done in the air too.
OP/Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsPU6nCm5iI

– Spring Stall
How to Perform: Execute a Spring Jump on the ground, then spam D-air immediately above the spring.
Effect: Sonic will hover over the spring, doing D-airs repeatedly. Other characters with D-airs similar to Sonic's can also do this on springs, but since they can't generate them, the usefulness is very limited.

- Up-B Distance Extension
How to Perform: F-air or B-air immediately after performing an Up-B.
Effect: Sonic travels slightly farther horizontally than he normally does after an Up-B.
OP/Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsPU6nCm5iI

[Squirtle]

– Shellshifting and Hydroplaning
How to Perform: Not terrible easy to explain. Check the video link for the "How To" and a nice demo.
Effect: Shellshifting is, essentially, moving back and forth rapidly with Squirtle's running pivot. Squirtle can play a lot of spacing games with his opponent using proper Shellshifting. Hydroplaning is a glitch that uses the momentum from a Shellshift pivot to slide an Up-smash across absurd distances.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yTMrFboN2I

- Squirtle Tipping (a.k.a. "I've fallen and I can't get up!")
How to perform: If an enemy Squirtle is using his Withdraw, footstool-jump off of him.
Effect: The enemy Squirtle flips onto his back and is completely vulnerable for a short period.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=142987

[Toon Link]

- Quick-Draw (also possible with [Link])
How to Perform: When landing, press B just before touching the ground.
Effect: Link/Toon Link fires an arrow immediately, skipping the draw animation. Best used after an aerial, drawing a bomb, or firing an arrow. Quick draw can be done after all of these actions full-hopped with Link or short-hopped with Toon Link.

[Wolf]

- Illusion Glitches 1 and 2 (from Drack's Wolf Guide)

Ledge Glitch: If you Side-B recover enough above the ledge so it doesn't sweetspot the ledge but not enough to put you on the ground, sometimes you won't ledgegrab, but fall straight down. This is interesting in that it does NOT put you ito special fall. You can recover by Up-Bing straight up which will sweetspot the ledge. I don't know any practical use for this, though I suppose it can be a mindgame if it's reliably repeatable.

Surface Glitch: If the ground obstructs your Side-B you will follow the ground instead of your usual diagonal trajectory. A good example is the Yoshi's Island Melee stage (the Super Mario World one). If you side-B up the pipe from the left side, you'll continue downwards and to the right along the pipe's right side. This can also be done at a specific point by the far left ledge of Melee Corneria, and in weird places like the teleport platform to the next stage in All-Star mode.

[====================*Misc. Known Glitches*====================]

Multiple - Combat Walking
Too funny. An explanation here will not do it justice.
OP: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165616&highlight=combat+walk

Jigglypuff - Final Smash Glitch
On Bridge of Eldin, get a Smash Ball with Jigglypuff. Wait until the bridge gets destroyed, then chill in the space where the bridge was until it starts to respawn. About 1 second after the bridge begins re-spawning, trigger the Final Smash. The Final Smash will be interrupted during/at the end of the inflation stage (depending on your timing) and Jigglypuff will remain huge until she dies. Can also be performed on Toon Link's Pirate Ship, but I'm not sure how.

Ike/(DeDeDe|Kirby) - Sucked Off
Place DeDeDe or Kirby on the edge of a platform facing into the stage, holding an Inhale. As Ike, do a Side-B into the Inhale's area of effect. Ike will lose control and fly off the side of the edge, committing suicide.

Ike/DeDeDe - Perma-Grab
On Corneria, locate the point to the LEFT of the Great Fox's dorsal fin where the fin meets the main ship body. Have Ike stand on the left of that convex corner and DeDeDe stand on the right of it, then have Ike grab DeDeDe. DeDeDe will now be permanently in Ike's hands until Ike decides to throw him.

Snake/DeDeDe - Perma-Explosion
Have Snake set a proximity mine, then have DeDeDe walk near its trigger radius and Inhale. The Inhale should trigger the prox mine, and as long as the Inhale is held, the explosion animation and hitbox will remain on the screen. The explosion disappears if (1) DeDeDe stops Inhaling voluntarily, (2) DeDeDe is hit out of the Inhale, or (3) somebody touches the explosion's hitbox.

Grab Animation Glitch
As any character, set your opponent near the edge of the stage and grab them. The spacing differs both by who is grabbing and who is being grabbed, but when pulled off, the grabbed character will stutter rapidly between two locations, like the Perma-Grab. Unlike the Perma-Grab, however, this is just a visual glitch and maintains all of the properties of a normal grab.

Sheik/Ivysaur Animation Glitch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9wjVVtVcnE

Tilt Landing (by Sino)
How to Perform: Do a D-smash/D-air at the very beginning of your character's landing animation.
Effect: Character does a D-tilt instead of a D-smash or D-air. Timing is super-difficult, but it is possible.
*Note: On-land D-tilts can be performed without glitches by holding Down and pressing A/C-stick-Down during landings.*

Moving Platform Glitch (Stage Builder)
At certain locations in the Stage Builder map, place a 1-wide vertically moving platform next to a downwardly slanted fall-through platform such that the moving platform "meets up" with the slanted platform at the high point of its path. If placed in the glitched area (coordinates differ based on whether the map is small, medium, or large, and the size of the slanted platform), when a character runs off of the slanted platform in the direction of the moving one, he/she will warp to the moving platform regardless of its location in the programmed path. Example here.


Have fun with that.

 

[thumbswayup]

You are kidding? I'll just obey (I assume you never visit the character boards which are filled with all sorts of trivial and advanced techs.)

Mortar Slide
Glide Toss

There. Two basic spacing techs.

But, look, let me put things this way:

Comboing is the major issue. Ok. And advanced techs no longer matter. Alright, I get that too.

Is it the case that massive combos, which are the depth of Melee, are achievable without the aid of advanced techniques?

Comboing in Brawl does NOT exist. It is impossible. If you combo in brawl it means your opponent sucks.

As for Mortar Slide and Glide Toss, those only help TWO characters. You could L-cancel and wavedash with everyone in melee. How is this just as effective if it only helps two characters?

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Thumbswayup is dumb

and 56k just ***** this thread.

 

[metalmonstar]

The problem with your argument is that we're not in that situation. People want to move from brawl to melee as they have more fun playing it.

I see what you are saying but I fail to see how it applies to not only my statement but the topic in general. It would be ideal to have a fun competitive game but not really necessary for a game to be competitive. Take track for instance, you run your heart out only to puke your guts out at the end and hobble back to your teammates. Who in their right mind would think that is fun? (Well I do but anyway) A lot of people do track because they are good not because it is fun. I know a friend who plays organized football. It isn't fun to him but he does it anyway because he is good. Fun does not equal competitive, it is just something we would like to have. I guess for Brawl it really comes down to opinion and preference. I have fun playing brawl just as I had fun playing Melee.

Scar's story was to point out the fact that he hardly plays brawl and got that far in a tourney. The person he lost to was using extremely easy to learn and gay tactics. I know what he means by a gay *** mk cuz I play one. Honestly he's gayer than sheik in melee cuz all you have to do is learn neutral b, use side b occasionally, and up-b/glide. My friends are close to banning me from using that move cuz it's just that gay lol.[/QUOTE]

Again Lame tactics mean nothing when it comes to competitiveness of a game. It is all about who wins and if they win consecutively. The best will use the lamest strategy most effectively to win. It is just that simple. Nothing is beyond the possibility of usability. All is fair in love, war, and competitive gaming.

Because people prefer playing a game that doesn't have lame tactics and takes skill lol. I've been to a tournament where everyone said they liked melee better, but they want to give brawl a try. That tournament had 50+ people. I tried to watch the finals matches, but like everyone else, I walked away out of boredom and tried to get some friendlies in.

I guess I am just weird I enjoy watching Brawl tournaments. Once again, I will state that the lameness of a strategy does not make a game any more or less competitive. It may not take skill to use but it takes skill to utilize it and effectively beat all others. Skill is just a barrier. If you are a competitive and determined player, you will master any techinque there is to offer in most likely under a week or two. Maybe if it is insanely hard to do it will take you a month. Everyone who wants to win will have it down, however the true skill is utilizing it. The true skill is stopping your opponent from doing the move and maximizing your chances of using it. That is true skill. That is who the best will be in Brawl.

It takes no skill to use a lame strategy, but it will take skill to prefect that lame strategy and beat others who also use it.

Ere'body knows those are viable tactics in brawl. The only problem is those are the only tactics in brawl. In melee you could do those and other things as well.



The problem is that nobody can find anything that can end this cycle, unlike in melee. For instance takes MK's neutral b. While it diminishes to 8 damage eventually, does that matter? Just spam it over and over again and the damage racks up. All your others moves won't be stale so u have a plethora of kill moves. The only solution to mk's neutral b spam is to find a character that can outrange and outprioritize it, handle his air game, and edgeguard him somehow. I can only think of a few characters that can do it. Since this strategy is way too easy to pick up, it eliminates over half the cast. Now all you have to do is learn a handful of character matchups for your character and when your opponent picks somebody who is ***** by mk, pick him.

I am not sure how to read this. Okay so MK is lame but we have characters that match up against him. I would think that would make him a lot less lame then. The point is that his b although annoying isn't broken since people can out range or out prioritize it. I have seen it happen so it can be done. Next MK isn't a broken character since he has unfavorable match ups. Help me out, where were you going with this?

Just because no one can find a counter strategy doesn't mean there isn't one. Not like it really matters much anyway. The best will win with no strategy if they had to.

Anyway, who cares how many characters you have or what percentage are tournament viable. MvC2 only have like 5 characters worth using. It really doesn't matter how large or small your cast is. A fighting game needs only three characters. In fact a fighting game also only needs one dominant strategy. The way I see it, Brawl has more than three tournament worthy characters and it has more than one working strategy. Not to mention it is still early, the best strategy may change in some time.

Like I said, you have two options, prefect the current best strategy, or formulate one that beats it. That is how I see the progression of a game.

The problem is when the good people start picking mk instead of favorites. We'll end up with a situation similar to melee except that the low-bottom tiers will actually be unplayable, even at lower tournament levels.

You missed it by oh so much. People have already done that. Snake and Mk are by far the most popular and probably most played characters. It seems to me that people will just naturally gravitate to the person they think is the best. Then add to it that people are actually saying that these two are the best.

The same thing happened in Melee. A friend of mine started out as kirby when it first came out. Then moved to Samus. Then on to Marth and finally made it to fox. He doesn't even believe in tier list yet he naturally went from worst to best. It seems more people play to win then we give credit to.

The main point is, not to be rude or anything, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if three characters are tournament worthy or if 20 characters are tournament worthy. I could find move X that will wipe out 20 characters and the game will still be competitive as long as at least one character can survive move X. So now we have a counter to said character. So who counters the character who can survive. Now the game progresses towards finding match ups and who is the best. I am just going to make a guess that Brawl is going to be about counter picking.

I disagree with people on this. I believe brawl does have a punishment system, but its not as effective, but still there. You have to pick a character that can camp and punish at the same time.

I didn't state that it didn't have one. I just said it wasn't as heavy of punishment as some other games have. I think everyone can agree that Brawl has some kind of punishment system, as little as it may be.

It's more of a situation where scissors beats paper, paper randomly wins against rock, and rock beats scissors.

Just because X beats Y and Y beats Z but Z beats X doesn't mean that rock paper scissors is going to change. Brawl still holds to this design. It is just a weighted game of rock paper scissors. That is all.

Out of the top 5 melee players: 1 likes brawl, 1 is going to go in the direction the community goes regardless, 2 hate brawl but play it to make money, and 1 is retiring.

There hasn't been a general consensus on who is the best brawl player is.

That really hampers our ability to determine whether brawl has a high level of competitiveness or not.

Sorry it took so long to reply and sorry if it is a little long.

Good job with those mindgames Gimpy.

I enjoyed watching the Falcons beat up everyone. Too bad they can't do that in Brawl. Makes me sad because I wanted to learn to main him for Brawl.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Thumbswayup is dumb

and 56k just ***** this thread.

*takes a bow*

I'd like to thank all the little people I had to step on to get here...

 

[thumbswayup]

xzax1337 is an idiot.

LOL at 56k's post. I posted right after you so it I didn't read all that until just now. Wow, long *** list lol.

edit: The list fails.

 

[arrowhead]

Thumbswayup is dumb

and 56k just ***** this thread.

sorry. you fail.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

brawl has combos not a lot but some

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

LOL you think those two techniques can replace the mobility granted by wavedashing?

the only advanced tech we complain about is L-cancelling. seriously, stop lying

Calm down-- I only listed two. And YES, those are spacing techniques which are the equivalence of Melee wavedashing, being true to the Brawl standards. Most characters have their own spacing abilities (Look at the post of 56K)

L-canceling is the issue? Aha. Well, Brawl does not have it, but lag animations can, in fact, be auto-canceled. Some characters hardly have any lag in their aerials (Looks at Link with the exclusion of his dair). Please respect what exists in Brawl.

Ok, and one more thing. Lying? Did I miss something here? Lie about what? And why doesn't anyone answer the question I asked?

Comboing in Brawl does NOT exist. It is impossible. If you combo in brawl it means your opponent sucks.

As for Mortar Slide and Glide Toss, those only help TWO characters. You could L-cancel and wavedash with everyone in melee. How is this just as effective if it only helps two characters?

Please refer to the list of advanced techniques. And please offer evidence for your statement of "Comboing in Brawl does NOT exist." No one has proved it to my knowledge (Attempted, yes. But it is inevitably circular reasoning)

and 56k just ***** this thread.

I agree. Good job.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

Making a really long post that nobody is going to read listing off anything that can even half way be considered an "advanced tactic" is hardly "****** this thread"

As i've said before, the complaint with brawl is not the 'lack of advanced tactics' but it's just the core gameplay.

And it's not that the game is "different" from Melee either.

The combos in brawl are extremely limited, you can make 20 mistakes vs the best brawl player in the world and not have lost yet, whereas in melee you can make 4 mistakes and you've just been destroyed.

There is almost nothing in this game that is guaronteed beyond a few traps here and there. For example, you are flying down to the ground and you have no jumps left, a snake up smashes, you either take the up smash or your airdodge through, which basically is like telling snake "hey, do whatever you want to me i'm extremely vulnerable now". There are other cases like this. Brawl is a game of traps... I personally just don't really have fun with the game.

The game is just annoying simplified. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill to be good, as it quite clearly does, but it's not even close to the competitive level of Melee.

Anyone who says otherwise is extremely ignorant of high level Melee gameplay.

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

Making a really long post that nobody is going to read listing off anything that can even half way be considered an "advanced tactic" is hardly "****** this thread"

As i've said before, the complaint with brawl is not the 'lack of advanced tactics' but it's just the core gameplay.

And it's not that the game is "different" from Melee either.

The combos in brawl are extremely limited, you can make 20 mistakes vs the best brawl player in the world and not have lost yet, whereas in melee you can make 4 mistakes and you've just been destroyed.

There is almost nothing in this game that is guaronteed beyond a few traps here and there. For example, you are flying down to the ground and you have no jumps left, a snake up smashes, you either take the up smash or your airdodge through, which basically is like telling snake "hey, do whatever you want to me i'm extremely vulnerable now". There are other cases like this. Brawl is a game of traps... I personally just don't really have fun with the game.

The game is just annoying simplified. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill to be good, as it quite clearly does, but it's not even close to the competitive level of Melee.

Anyone who says otherwise is extremely ignorant of high level Melee gameplay.

Ok, Gimpy, here's the thing. That theme of punishment was present in Melee WAY ahead of its release. Such gameplay is obviesly not visible in Brawl at this moment.
You've demonstrated a bad a comparison to conclude that Brawl is "annoying simplified."

Now, please note that competive value is independent of the content present in Melee. Competitive value depends on how many people want to prove themselves in a certain area by competing. At this moment, most people are competing in Brawl and not Melee. Brawl has a much higher level of competitiveness.

I have just said otherwise with evidence. And, no-- I am not ignorant of the the high level of Melee gameplay which has an age of seven+ years.

Oh, and I almost forgot. I don't know if this is even relevant anymore, but could you answer my question?:

Is it the case that massive combos, which are the depth of Melee, are achievable without the aid of advanced techniques?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Ok, Gimpy, here's the thing. That theme of punishment was present in Melee WAY ahead of its release. Such gameplay is obviesly not visible in Brawl at this moment.
You've demonstrated a bad a comparison to conclude that Brawl is "annoying simplified."

Now, please not that competive value is independent of the content present in Melee. Competitive value depends on how many people want to prove themselves in a certain area by competing. At this moment, most people are competing in Brawl and not Melee. Brawl has a much higher level of competitiveness.

I have just said otherwise with evidence. And, no-- I am not ignorant of the the high level of Melee gameplay which has an age of seven+ years.

Oh, and I almost forgot. I don't know if this is even relevant anymore, but could you answer my question?:

Is it the case that massive combos, which are the depth of Melee, are achievable without the aid of advanced techniques?

More people play Wii Sports than play Brawl, obviously this means that Wii Sports is more competitive than Brawl. C WUT I DID THAR?

More players doesn't make a game more competitive, it just means you have more players.

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

More people play Wii Sports than play Brawl, obviously this means that Wii Sports is more competitive than Brawl. C WUT I DID THAR?

More players doesn't make a game more competitive, it just means you have more players.

I hope you are not altering my argument. I clearly wrote:

"Competitive value depends on how many people want to prove themselves in a certain area by competing."

Now, if more people compete in Wii Sports than in Brawl, then Wii Sports is more competitive.

 

[Aesir]

^ No it's not.

you're pulling **** out of your *** good job. Wii sports has competition, it doesn't mean it's competitive. Theres a difference.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I hope you are not altering my argument. I clearly wrote:

"Competitive value depends on how many people want to prove themselves in a certain area by competing."

Now, if more people compete in Wii Sports than in Brawl, then Wii Sports is more competitive.

Thats the thing, any two given people playing any one given game against each other naturally seek to win. As such, all games are competitive. By your definition, the game with the most players is the most competitive as such Wii Sports(and Wii Play) are more competitive than Brawl.

 

[TheManaLord]

Competitive is easily defined as somethings aptitude for competition.

Nobody can disagree with that.