Samus Guide Going to be Reworked, Hopefully. PLEASE READ!!!

[Crystanium]

I will be reworking my Samus guide. I am going to request a moderator to remove this thread so that I might be able to recreate a new thread and so we can all participate on one specific character for the Samus guide. I don't care how long it takes. I want people to participate! I'm talking to you Samus mains especially! I feel that we all went off and talked about whoever we wanted in the beginning (apparently), and to be honest, I am not feeling any motivation to continue. I want to continue, and I will continue for as long as it takes me. I just need people to participate, so please guys and gals, help me out here. I can't do this alone.

 

[Coldfront]

Alright, I'll give some input on the harder match ups that I've experienced.

MK: He's short, his attacks have good range and priority, he's fast and so are his attacks, and most of his attacks have little lag. Some of his attacks seem to go under Samus' shield if it's halfway gone because of his size. He's really hard to gimp because of his shuttle loop. The only way I've been able to KO a decent MK has been off the top of the stage.

He's strongest on the ground, because if he's airborne with good spacing he becomes susceptible to zair spam. So from what I have experienced MK players usually come in with a dash. Uncharged shots stop him, and if he's in range you can jab combo for space or jab dtilt to combo. Most of the time I've had to skip the jab and go for the side tilt because the shot stopped him before he was in jab range.

Throws usually get me through matches against decent MK's. Homing Missile spam usually forces the shield followed by a zair to grab to dthrow. If he starts putting pressure on me close range I play on the ledge. From hanging on the ledge I use either a homing missile or a charged shot at midrange or a Fair through him to shield or spot dodge if he's close.

Like the general consensus I find this to be one of Samus' toughest match ups. I should note though that the MK I was facing rarely used side B, neutral B, or down B, so as of yet my details regarding him are still incomplete.

 

[Paradigm]

Samus rocks the larger characters who can't chaingrab her.

I second MK being her hardest matchup.

 

[kongfucius]

R.O.B:

Rob is a fairly equal match-up for Samus, being that Samus has the advantage in damage dealing and stage control, while ROB has an easier time Koing her and dealing more damage in melee combat. ROB has a formidable array of weaponry to deal with missile spam such as the gyro and laser, but neither can be used consistently and he will be forced to approach. He has quite a few angles of weakness like behind, below, and at 45 degrees, so platforms **** him hard.
ROB’s recovery is nuts and Koing him will take forever if you’re not proficient at slamming him off the stage with your gunarm. Z-airs **** him at a distance and U-tilt and f-air combos him nicely. A trick he will use often is Sidestep followed by D-smash, and his priority is good enough to land quite a few of those on you, so stay at mid-range unless you’re going in for the kill.
It’s not to hard to rack up damage on ROB, but be careful to save that F-smash, U-tilt, or D-tilt for the KO. Charged shot is good but make sure it hits by setting it up with a missile cancel (homing I guess), or Z-air.
This match-up in my opinion is equal due to Samus’ ability to gimp, combo, and control the stage…leaving RON with less options, but ROB can just as easily surprise you and turn the match on you with heavy damage dealing, and high-priority/range KO moves that can really punish your mistakes along with his blatant refusal to die. Definitely gonna be a long match between these two…

Tudor VS JHNY matches are a must watch....they're located in the official SAMUS video thread.

And YES,,,MetaKnight is a *****. Short, fast, disjointed, unedgeguardable, gimpy, B-spammy, and unweak.

 

[Coldfront]

Where is the support?!

Alright, I've got some info on Zelda.

It's a pretty fair match IMO. Samus can out-spam her with homing missiles and uncharged shots. If you play it right, she'll either block or use neutral B to reflect. If she does the latter you can get off a zair and possibly a dash attack into a Uair.

Zelda's got a more powerful Fsmash and I believe it has more range than Samus' Fsmash. You also don't ever want to be above her as she'll KO you fairly early with either Usmash or Uair. If your fighting close range be wary of her Usmash, as it will mess you up. Usually in such a situation most of us like to use Up+B out of shield, but if you miss against Zelda your screwed, so my advice is to avoid that in the match. Instead of a Up+B try to go for the Dtilt and get a combo off.

I think that the fight is most in Samus' favor when you play off the edge. Zelda's got some powerful aerials but her recovery is rather predictable. If she's forced to use her Up+B you've got a good shot at getting a Dair in or an edge hog. You may even feel like playing with your bombs at this point to stun her before she grabs the edge and go for the Dair. Just try to stay under her or across from her, try not to be above unless you know you can get her before she gets a Uair off.

Other than that as long as your quick on the shield and time your spot dodging it's a good fight. She can't overwhelm you to the degree that MK can, and she's also of decent height so most of your moves will connect.

If anyone has any corrections or wants to add feel free.

 

[Gum]

R.O.B:

Rob is a fairly equal match-up for Samus, being that Samus has the advantage in damage dealing and stage control, while ROB has an easier time Koing her and dealing more damage in melee combat. ROB has a formidable array of weaponry to deal with missile spam such as the gyro and laser, but neither can be used consistently and he will be forced to approach. He has quite a few angles of weakness like behind, below, and at 45 degrees, so platforms **** him hard.
ROB’s recovery is nuts and Koing him will take forever if you’re not proficient at slamming him off the stage with your gunarm. Z-airs **** him at a distance and U-tilt and f-air combos him nicely. A trick he will use often is Sidestep followed by D-smash, and his priority is good enough to land quite a few of those on you, so stay at mid-range unless you’re going in for the kill.
It’s not to hard to rack up damage on ROB, but be careful to save that F-smash, U-tilt, or D-tilt for the KO. Charged shot is good but make sure it hits by setting it up with a missile cancel (homing I guess), or Z-air.
This match-up in my opinion is equal due to Samus’ ability to gimp, combo, and control the stage…leaving RON with less options, but ROB can just as easily surprise you and turn the match on you with heavy damage dealing, and high-priority/range KO moves that can really punish your mistakes along with his blatant refusal to die. Definitely gonna be a long match between these two…

Tudor VS JHNY matches are a must watch....they're located in the official SAMUS video thread.

And YES,,,MetaKnight is a *****. Short, fast, disjointed, unedgeguardable, gimpy, B-spammy, and unweak.

I would have to disagree with the ROB match-up. ROB tends to be a REALLY easy match-up for me, and even on bad days I do good against him. Missiles + zair **** him in the air and on the ground, and KO'ing him is failry easy with spikes, especially if you set it up with a bomb drop off the edge. The trick to spiking him, especially at low damage, is to spike him once and then continue falling after him and spike him again. You don't even need to use a jump most of the time and you can always get back. A bomb set up is good for when ROB decides to uair you to keep you from spiking him. Let the bomb hit then IMMEDIATELY fall after it and spike the crap out of him.

My hardest has indeed been MK, but im starting to get used to him.

Quite honestly though, Im not sure why so many people are still hating on Samus because she doesn't seem to have a huge problem against any of the cast except for MK in particular.

 

[Tudor]

I have to say it's really hard for me too look at match-up charts and agree. This is for a few reasons. Everybody plays their character (Samus) differently and has a different amount of skill, everybody plays different people who play their characters differently from each other as well (ROB, MK, etc) and have different skill levels, and finally, there are too many combinations of what works against what to take into account. I know i am confusing a lot of people right now, but all I am trying to say i that sure people can agree or disagree that Samus is equal to ROB or that Rob counters Samus, or whatever. But the truth is, depends what Samus and depends what ROB.

I really believe every character can do great depending on the player. And I especially believe that for Samus. She has moves good enough to destroy opponents as long as you play well and smart, you also always have the upper hand because only a small portion of brawlers have even played a samus, let alone a good one, so sweep them off their feet! Also, i find a lot of people expecting me to play Zerosuit, which is a mind game in itself, they even counter pick sometimes lol.

Well anyways, sorry to rant, glad you read this if you did and in my opinion, just play very smart if you think you're getting counter picked and you'll be surprised it's just the opposite (sorry if my post didn't help anybody/the thread)

 

[Aran]

Olimar's not tough? I'd say that's my single hardest matchup.

 

[ADHD]

For Jigglypuff.

Samus' aerials outprioritize everything jiggz has, and since jiggz air game is her only game nowadays, the zair spam can completely destroy her. Spikes are relatively easy, when she uses rollout set a bomb down or shoot a charge shot beam. That's my two sense.

 

[VirisKnite]

Well short characters = bad, and disjointed hitboxes = bad. So Olimar = small + disjointed = bad X 2. So yeah Olimar seems bad enough. But I think you just need to make sure you don't use zair while he's grounded, and try to force him into the air with homing missle spam and bombs. Oh and also bombs are probably good for disrupting his ground approaches.

I'm not sure how effective this is, haven't played any olimars 1v1. But I think this is just sitting in the back of my mind from our thread on dealing with olimar.

 

[quote05]

I tend to have a hard time against a really good mario and snake. Mario's **** fireball are hard to destroy and aproach for me. Snake's dash attack and his upsmash are also hard to counter (especially when combined). But Snake's height makes him an easy target for her zair, and missles work well too. And Mario's fireball could be desroyed with a well placed zair, but his nair destroys missles, and he could reflect anything you shoot at him. So for me a really good mario has been my hardest match-up.

 

[Crystanium]

I have to say it's really hard for me too look at match-up charts and agree. This is for a few reasons. Everybody plays their character (Samus) differently and has a different amount of skill, everybody plays different people who play their characters differently from each other as well (ROB, MK, etc) and have different skill levels, and finally, there are too many combinations of what works against what to take into account. I know i am confusing a lot of people right now, but all I am trying to say i that sure people can agree or disagree that Samus is equal to ROB or that Rob counters Samus, or whatever. But the truth is, depends what Samus and depends what ROB.

I really believe every character can do great depending on the player. And I especially believe that for Samus. She has moves good enough to destroy opponents as long as you play well and smart, you also always have the upper hand because only a small portion of brawlers have even played a samus, let alone a good one, so sweep them off their feet! Also, i find a lot of people expecting me to play Zerosuit, which is a mind game in itself, they even counter pick sometimes lol.

Well anyways, sorry to rant, glad you read this if you did and in my opinion, just play very smart if you think you're getting counter picked and you'll be surprised it's just the opposite (sorry if my post didn't help anybody/the thread)

Tudor, I do agree with much of what you said here, but the main thing about match-ups is how well Samus in general plays against other characters. You're right that a good Samus player will differ from what the match-up might say. For example, when I first saw IvanEva's match-up chart, I disagreed that Zero Suit Samus had the advantage against Samus, because clearly, as I told IvanEva, I've defeated several Zero Suit Samus players with Samus. Still, having input from other peoples experiences also helps out the Samus community, because we all get an idea of what our opponents are capable of doing. It also helps us to overcome our opponents' tactics.

 

[quote05]

For Olimar

Well I don't have that much of a problem against him. He's extremely vulnerable in the air against Samus. The only problem is his ground game. Just keep your distance and use long reach attacks and homing missiles or just send him in the air. Remember his long range smash attacks and grab. If he starts throwing his pikmin with forward-b, Samus' shoulder charge breaks through them. His pikmin absorbs a fully charged shot, and it's really hard to hit him with super missiles. His biggest weakness is his recovery. Try to keep him away from the ledge as much as possible and remember his up-b can still hit you and sometimes kill you if you get knocked against a wall (like the ones in final destination). Just sit back and read how he reacts and you should be okay.

 

[Hive]

right, the reason I suggested IvanEva's matchup chart is not because it is necessarily fact.... but it serves as a great starting point ^^

 

[0RLY]

The damage on your chart seems to have a bit of errors. When I attack, Samus' ftilt does 7% with her leg and 6% with her foot. The bomb also does either 5% or 9%, depending on how close they are to the bomb. It's like it has two explosions, but it doesn't. Her fsmash also does 1% more damage when angled up and 1% less damage when angled down. I'm also surprised that her usmash doesn't do more damage when charged. That attack can do more damage than a max charge shot if you charge it in melee.

 

[kongfucius]

Dryn...you forgot the B-air, on your moveslist.

 

[Crystanium]

Thanks for mentioning the things that I'll need to change on Samus' attacks. I had 5% listed for Bombs, but then I tried it again, and I ended up with 9%. I realized that the difference is where the Bomb is set. I jumped over Mario in Training Mode, used the Bomb, and it fell right on him. That did 9%. I then stood right next to him and planted a Bomb, and it did 5%. So, yeah, I'm not finished with the list yet. ^_^; I still need to gather information on how much damage Samus does when she is returning from the edge. I can't remember how much damage it does, but I do know that Samus gives 10% damage when she is at 100% and climbing up from the edge.

 

[Undrdog]

I've got advice for fighting Pit. Unplug your controller and go home foo's!

But honestly, I won't go into much detail. I think Pit has been discussed enough in this forum as it is. He's got like nine threads. ^_^

 

[Hive]

Hey undrdog! I tried your advice this morning... but I still lost
apparently when you unplug the controller it doesn't work anymore ;_(

lol

 

[ADHD]

I've got advice for fighting Pit. Unplug your controller and go home foo's!

But honestly, I won't go into much detail. I think Pit has been discussed enough in this forum as it is. He's got like nine threads. ^_^

ZAIR! END OF IT!

 

[Vaul]

I've been having a discussion with ShadowLink over Samus v Sonic in IvanEva's matchup thread. Although he often brings up good points, I still believe he's overlooking many of Samus's strengths and overgeneralizes certain qualities. Here's the latest:

No it isn't, there really is no doubt as to Sonic having an advantage over Samus.

Concerning Samus's recovery:
Samus has to rely on bomb jumping to increase her horizontal movement. in melee it wans't as punishable because not many had a recovery they could use. HOwever now they can, and Sonic has a variety of optins for gimping.

Concerning Sonic KOing Samus:
Which is why i mentioned SOnic's ability to rack up damage. He'll be able to bring up her damage so that his moves are much more likely to kill or force her into defensive play whre he can place her in a position for a kill move.

Concerning me going into detail on Samus's projectile/zair game:
You'll have to since it needs to apply to Sonic.
I know Samus' projectiles but Sonic breaks through ALL of them with his spindashes/charge and Usmash.
both of which are very fast and cover excellent distance (Usmash via DAC)

Concerning my previous points on ISJR and Samus's aerials:
Of course however her aerial game is not as good as Sonic's. Not because of standalone basis but because he can do more with his aerial gme than she can.
Spnshotting increases his aerial speed beyond anything she is capable of and lets him approach her in the air more quickly and easily.
he has several effective ways to place her in the air to rack up damage.
She just cannot compete with him on ground or in the air as well as you think.
Simply because he can approach her quickly and just dominate her.

Responding to my hypothesis that Samus v Sonic is a neutral matchup:
Its not neutral.
He shuts down her projectile ganme. Breaks through Zair which few characters are capable of and is capable of gimping and racking up damage for kills on her.
Its a definite advantage for Sonic.
I really don't see as to how she would be capable of preventing Sonic from getting close or how her aerial game could stop his own.

So whad'ya think? Of course I'd like to counter his claims, but I'd definitely like the Samus community's input on this matchup. Also, feel free to post over there as well.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

That matchup favors Samus.
Sonic can rush her down, but a single f-tilt, d-smash, f-smash, or well-timed missle/bomb/Power Beam can stop his momentum cold. Once Samus has done that, it's only a matter of time before he gets his furry blue crackhead arse knocked out.
COME ON! STEP IT UP!

 

[Crystanium]

So whad'ya think? Of course I'd like to counter his claims, but I'd definitely like the Samus community's input on this matchup. Also, feel free to post over there as well.

ShadowLink84 seems to exaggerate, Vaul. I'll give my input by replying to what ShadowLink84 said.

Concerning Samus's recovery:
Samus has to rely on bomb jumping to increase her horizontal movement. in melee it wans't as punishable because not many had a recovery they could use. HOwever now they can, and Sonic has a variety of optins for gimping.

This assumes three things.

1. That Samus is on a stage where you can fall off.
2. That Samus relies on Bombs alone to recover.
3. That Sonic will gimp Samus.

If Samus is on a stage like the Mushroomy Kingdom, Mario Circuit, Rumble Falls, Bridge of Eldin, et al., then points 2 and 3 are false. Samus' tether does just fine, and even if Sonic were to go out to attempt gimping Samus (which ever way he would), he has to keep in mind that Samus can move away, and the explosions from the Bombs can hinder him instead. Samus has a great recovery.

Concerning Sonic KOing Samus:
Which is why i mentioned SOnic's ability to rack up damage. He'll be able to bring up her damage so that his moves are much more likely to kill or force her into defensive play whre he can place her in a position for a kill move.

This assumes that the person playing as Sonic can even rack up a lot of damage to the person who is playing as Samus. This also assumes that Samus will not be shielding, spot-dodging, or even rolling out of the way. This is all theoretical, and therefore has no truth value to it. Unless a video can be provided where a good Samus and Sonic player are duking it out, this is nothing more than an assertion. Besides, what's wrong with playing defensive?

Concerning me going into detail on Samus's projectile/zair game:
You'll have to since it needs to apply to Sonic.
I know Samus' projectiles but Sonic breaks through ALL of them with his spindashes/charge and Usmash.
both of which are very fast and cover excellent distance (Usmash via DAC)

False. Samus' Charge Shot, if charged slightly (5% instead of 3%), will cancel out Sonic's Forward+B, even if his Forward+B is charged up all the way. Samus' f-smash (uncharged or charged) and d-tilt cancel out Sonic's Forward+B. It's unsual why ShadowLink84 would even mention Sonic's u-smash, considering that Samus' projectile goes horizontally, not vertically.

Concerning my previous points on ISJR and Samus's aerials:
Of course however her aerial game is not as good as Sonic's. Not because of standalone basis but because he can do more with his aerial gme than she can.
Spnshotting increases his aerial speed beyond anything she is capable of and lets him approach her in the air more quickly and easily.
he has several effective ways to place her in the air to rack up damage.
She just cannot compete with him on ground or in the air as well as you think.
Simply because he can approach her quickly and just dominate her.

I smelled fanboyism in this assertion. Sonic may be quick, but he's not strong. I'll cite SmashWiki.

• Some attacks have low priority.
• Can be juggled easily.
• Lacks a reliable way to deal with projectiles.
• Speed can be nullified by repeated projectiles.

Responding to my hypothesis that Samus v Sonic is a neutral matchup:
Its not neutral.
He shuts down her projectile ganme. Breaks through Zair which few characters are capable of and is capable of gimping and racking up damage for kills on her.
Its a definite advantage for Sonic.
I really don't see as to how she would be capable of preventing Sonic from getting close or how her aerial game could stop his own.

Vaul, it's official. Your friend suffers from Sonic fanaticism to the point that he is blind of the facts.

 

[Vaul]

Vaul, it's official. Your friend suffers from Sonic fanaticism to the point that he is blind of the facts.

He's not my friend, buddy

But this is good stuff so far. I view ShadowLink as being far better at defending his own arguments than criticizing others, aka he is informed on sonic, but obviously is not very knowledgable on samus. I think he and I have been confusing our definitions in terms of sonic's sideB. By this I mean that ShadowLink will say 'sonics sideb goes through all samus's projectiles', but I'm interpreting this to mean the initial hop, the only time when sonic has really good priority; this does not include the spindash after the intial hop (I believe). I'll have to confirm which one he means, because if its the sideB in all its entirety, then clearly he's got some reading to do.

Keep 'em commin, my fellow Samus brethren.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This assumes three things.

1. That Samus is on a stage where you can fall off.
2. That Samus relies on Bombs alone to recover.
3. That Sonic will gimp Samus.

Wrong. this assumes that Samus ends up below the stage.
Something that will often occur due to the mostly horizontal knock back of Sonic's Fair and his ability to D throw people off the stage.
Sonic WILL attempt to gimp Samus.

If Samus is on a stage like the Mushroomy Kingdom, Mario Circuit, Rumble Falls, Bridge of Eldin, et al., then points 2 and 3 are false. Samus' tether does just fine, and even if Sonic were to go out to attempt gimping Samus (which ever way he would), he has to keep in mind that Samus can move away, and the explosions from the Bombs can hinder him instead. Samus has a great recovery.

Except that those walk off stages are counterpick.
The bombs don't hinder him at all. you can test this yourself.
She can drop bombs all along the way but Sonic can still approach her very quickly through the air via spinshotting. Basically giving him speed greater than that of Wario.
Not only that he can make use of his spring and Dair to get to the ground quickly when using it.

So even if he does end up on a walk off stage he has can rack up damage in order to kill Samus. He has ways of getting around the lack of KO ability.

This assumes that the person playing as Sonic can even rack up a lot of damage to the person who is playing as Samus.[/quote
So Samus is untouchable?
Since when?

This also assumes that Samus will not be shielding, spot-dodging, or even rolling out of the way. This is all theoretical, and therefore has no truth value to it. Unless a video can be provided where a good Samus and Sonic player are duking it out, this is nothing more than an assertion. Besides, what's wrong with playing defensive?

I*points to blue blur cinemas.
If there is none there I offer a match to prove my points.

Nothing is wrong with playing defesively. However you are assuming that Sonic won't know a way to get around this.
His grabbing range is up there due to his dash shield grab. She can't roll because her rolls are easily among the worst ones in the game. Its slow and very predictable in movement. I've more often gotten punished for rolling than I ahve spot dodging as Samus.

False. Samus' Charge Shot, if charged slightly (5% instead of 3%), will cancel out Sonic's Forward+B, even if his Forward+B is charged up all the way. Samus' f-smash (uncharged or charged) and d-tilt cancel out Sonic's Forward+B. It's unsual why ShadowLink84 would even mention Sonic's u-smash, considering that Samus' projectile goes horizontally, not vertically.

False to your false.
Sonic's side B WILL cancel her charged beam at all points during the initial hop which he will do up close here Samus is most likely to use it.

The U smash has a disjointed hitbox so when she fires any of her projectiles they usually smack into the U smash and have no effect.
I don't mention anything without reason.

I smelled fanboyism in this assertion. Sonic may be quick, but he's not strong. I'll cite SmashWiki.

You smash wiki is not only outdated but incredibly wrong.
1 is not wrong. he has low priority.
2. Not juggled easily ^B lets him escape many combos including Falco's CG.
3.He has several methods of getting through projectiles. Why do you think Pit can't spam his projectile reliably?
4. Repeated projectiles don't stop anyone except Ike and ganondorf

Vaul, it's official. Your friend suffers from Sonic fanaticism to the point that he is blind of the facts.

If I am a fanboy, I am a very well informed fanboy. I at least make sure to use the character that is being debated and understand how they work.
If I can't find a video myself of Sonic vs Samus then anyone here is welcome to PM me for a match.

Oh and just so you know I am a fanboy of Link not Sonic but thank you for your ever so well informed response.

 

[Gum]

There are definitely some things wrong with this Sonic vs Samus debate.

1) Sonic, in no way, shape, or form outdoes samus in the air. Her uair has priority over his dair, as does her fair.

2) Bombs + charge shot does indeed stop all of Sonic's ground approaches. Lets also not forget that the explosions hang around and knock Sonic out of all his spin dashes. Also, her dair punishes all of his spin dashes pretty harshley without even trading hits.

3) About his spin dash attacks, they are amazingly predictable and her utilt hits all of them and will KO sonic.

4) Not a single one of his aerials have piority over her zair. This being said, she can also bomb cancel into anything including aerials and zairs. Given this, once Sonic gets into the air he is easily punished.

5) About the gimping, Samus is not easily gimped by anyone other than MK. As far as bomb jumping goes, Samus can lay bombs in the air and DI back after each one literally creating a wall that Sonic can't really get through because bombs have priority over all his aerials.

Im not saying its impossible, because it depends on the players, but character wise It's not a bad match-up for Samus. He has no projectiles to respond with like Falco, and he also lacks the priority of MK, so there isn't much there.

 

[Crystanium]

Wrong. this assumes that Samus ends up below the stage.
Something that will often occur due to the mostly horizontal knock back of Sonic's Fair and his ability to D throw people off the stage.
Sonic WILL attempt to gimp Samus.

Thank you for ignoring my points. If Samus is on the stages that cannot be walked off of, then Samus cannot be below the stage. As noted previously, this assumes:

1. That Samus is on a stage where you can fall off.
2. That Samus relies on Bombs alone to recover.

Just in case you haven't noticed, Samus doesn't need to be directly toward the edge of the stage to tether. She can be below it, as long as the tether can grab the edge. Any good Samus player would make sure that he or she wouldn't be below recovery. Not only does Samus have the tether, but she can also use her Screw Attack, which out-prioritizes most attacks, except for Link's d-air. Of course, that's if only Link is feeling good about the situation to the point that he doesn't d-air to his suicide.

Except that those walk off stages are counterpick.

Counter-pick? For whom?

The bombs don't hinder him at all. you can test this yourself.

*scoffs* The Bombs don't hinder Sonic? By what means?

She can drop bombs all along the way but Sonic can still approach her very quickly through the air via spinshotting. Basically giving him speed greater than that of Wario.

Assuming that Sonic can perform this accurately. Again, your assertion is all theoretical. Please provide a video between Samus and Sonic in this situation. It'll help your credibility.

Not only that he can make use of his spring and Dair to get to the ground quickly when using it.

Sonic's d-air is capable of leading him to his suicide if he is offstage. Sure, he can perform his spring, but I wonder how close Sonic has to be to the edge to actually make it back? If, for example, Sonic were to perform his d-air, but miss, he would have to return to the stage and perform it all over again. I've tried this today at Final Destination.

So even if he does end up on a walk off stage he has can rack up damage in order to kill Samus. He has ways of getting around the lack of KO ability.

Oy vey! Really, ShadownLink84, what are you trying to prove? If you're trying to prove that Sonic is better, go against a good Samus player with Sonic and show me what you've got. That is, if you play as anyone else other than Link?

So Samus is untouchable?
Since when?

I never said Samus was untouchable. However, what I was doing was showing that your assertion was just about as absurd. You're assuming again.

Nothing is wrong with playing defesively. However you are assuming that Sonic won't know a way to get around this.

I've assumed no such thing. Someone who does play defensively would prove better than one who does not. For example, if I play as Samus, and my brother plays as Ness, and if my brother decides to use his PK Thunder on himself to launch himself at me, I can block that attack and then immediately grab him. This here is not theoretical, since I've proven it many times. I could do the same with Pit or Fox.

His grabbing range is up there due to his dash shield grab. She can't roll because her rolls are easily among the worst ones in the game. Its slow and very predictable in movement. I've more often gotten punished for rolling than I ahve spot dodging as Samus.

If Sonic is going to dash, the first initial response for any player would be to spot-dodge, roll out of the way, shield, or air-dodge. I don't see why Samus (or anyone) couldn't just grab the on-coming Sonic. Dash attacks can be canceled if the opponent grabs. You should test this out against level 9 CPUs.

False to your false.
Sonic's side B WILL cancel her charged beam at all points during the initial hop which he will do up close here Samus is most likely to use it.

You'll need to explain what "side B" is and what "initial hop" is. But, whatever. It's not like you can't see Sonic running from a mile away, which would be enough time to, you know, shield, spot-dodge, roll, or air-dodge.

The U smash has a disjointed hitbox so when she fires any of her projectiles they usually smack into the U smash and have no effect.
I don't mention anything without reason.

Let's see you, or anyone who has played as Sonic, actually perform this, instead of speaking theoretically.

You smash wiki is not only outdated but incredibly wrong.

Really? That's why you said the first point is not wrong. Thank you for contradicting yourself.

1 is not wrong. he has low priority.

Of course.

2. Not juggled easily ^B lets him escape many combos including Falco's CG.

Yes, Sonic can use Up+B, which means that he can use any other aerial attack. So far I've seen Sonic players use d-air thereafter. Of course, that doesn't mean that all Sonic players will do this. Still, after Sonic has used his Up+B, he cannot jump again, which means that he can be juggled. Keep in mind the word "can," as opposed to "will."

3.He has several methods of getting through projectiles. Why do you think Pit can't spam his projectile reliably?

We're not talking about Pit, but even so, I can **** with Pit.

4. Repeated projectiles don't stop anyone except Ike and ganondorf

Prove this by providing a link.

 

[Paradigm]

*scoffs* The Bombs don't hinder Sonic? By what means?

If he's not too terribly far away, once s/he sees Samus morphing, the sonic player could easily run through the bomb and smack Samus up well before it goes off. If he *is* that far away Samus isn't going to be able to do anything to him either. To punish a bomb, he doesn't need to go into the air at all.

Maybe you can do some crazy mindgame with dropping a bomb to punish a sidestep or something along those lines, but for the most part they aren't going to get in a Sonic's way so much as leave Samus vulnerable.

If Sonic is going to dash, the first initial response for any player would be to spot-dodge, roll out of the way, shield, or air-dodge.

If he's far enough away I'd throw something at him. If he's up close I may try to hit him first with an ftilt or dtilt, or maybe even a jab. Or I'd shield, or sidestep. Depends on my read.

I don't see why Samus (or anyone) couldn't just grab the on-coming Sonic. Dash attacks can be canceled if the opponent grabs.

Her grab is slow. *Has* to be mindgamed. Sonic could shield to stop his dash and sidestep the grab, then get a semi charged smash off or start some combo. With good mindgames this is certainly an option - her grab is more feasible than it used to be - but it's really not worth considering as one of your primary options.

You should test this out against level 9 CPUs.

I've beaten L9 CPUs without getting hit only using one hand. (With Marth, anyways.) They're pretty stupid. You can do a whole bunch of stuff to them that won't work on humans. Not a good example to use.

You'll need to explain what "side B" is

The move Sonic uses when you're holding either left or right on the control stick (ie, a "side") and hit the special attack button (which is B on the gamecube controller). Samus' "side b" are her missiles.

Prove this by providing a link.

Take your pick from nearly any in the Samus video thread. Those are aging, though, so maybe Samus' have gotten better at such things. The difficulty in finding newer Samus videos is largely due to the fact that she isn't placing well enough in large tournaments for her stuff to be recorded. Samus don't seem to be making finals or semifinals or what not.

I can actually lock down some local scrubs with Samus' projectile game, but it's because they don't know how to deal with it.

Any good videos for this could easily be discredited with a stubborn "the Samus isn't doing it right." That's essentially my response to videos that show Samus' bombs as useful for something other than recovery - in each of those videos I find myself thinking that Samus' opponent is usually doing something wrong and I could punish it if I were in his/her place.

I've played some actually decent-latency matches from here in Ohio with SoCal. It may still be too much, but if you want we could try some matches sometime where I go through your bombs and projectiles to show you how it's done. The lag could be sufficient to hinder one or both of us, though. You'd be better off going to a tournament or finding some good people nearby-ish and trying it with them. You're bound to find someone good enough to show you why projectiles in Brawl are not sufficient to stop a good Sonic (or nearly any character).

 

[Vaul]

It's late/early. I'm in a daze. This is a temporary statement of my views to be further expanded on.

-Sonic cannot be 'juggled' anymore than the next character. While Samus can combo at low percents near the ground, the term juggling infers a LOT of recurrent hits and combos. So anything too high and 'juggling' is out the window.

-ShadowLink said that projectiles cannot stop anyone except ike and ganon. ShadowLink, I'd like you to read what you said again. If I were to say that, I'd have a very, very hard time believing you would accept such a broad, overgeneralized and inaccurate gesture with open arms; you'd probably call me ignorant and that I'd have no idea what I'm talking about (in this case I would be). Your major flaw in arguments is that you overgeneralize nearly everything. Although you bring up sufficient facts quite often, your arguments often go nowhere in the sense that nothing ever gets done; I'm yet to see you fully convince someone that they are wrong and you are right. I would honestly stop with the excessive hyperbole, it's getting annoying and its not convincing.

-Nothing should be tried on level 9 cpus and be called legitimate data.

-Spinshotting is very effective on stages such as FD, Smashville, Castle Siege, etc. However, it is not nearly AS effective on platform maps, where Samus's aerial game really shines. Notice that this is a comparison and that I'm not saying spinshotting on platform maps isn't effective. That is not up for interpretation.

-Samus's roll is horrid. She is often better off bomb canceling in the other direction so that the bomb(s) lay between her and the opponent. This is one of the more efficient defensive strategies vs Sonic.

-Sonic CAN gimp Samus and Samus CAN gimp Sonic....but that's all it is----it's only a possibility. The actual likelihood of successful low % gimping in this matchup is not very likely either way, or at least to the extent of being a distinctive, universal advantage over the other. Saying one character can gimp the other is not at all informative or remotely convincing.

-Both characters can 'rack up damage', yet they have nearly equal difficultly getting KOs. No one outshines the other in this category.

-Can someone who has not already taken a staunch position please test out the god**** projectiles v. sonic sideB issue and clear that up?

-Samus's jab is outstanding, having more priority than NEARLY every move in Sonic's arsenal. Also applies to Screw Attack; glorious out of shield.

-Sonic can dair off the stage to semi-spike and make it back no problem (usually). Yet his ability to do this applies when fighting against nearly every other character. I would not say it's a specific advantage over Samus, but it should not be dismissed as a poor strategy whatsoever.

-Samus's tether grab is also one of her best defensive options in this matchup. However, I'm unsure as to whether Sonic can be grabbed out of his downB and sideB. Testing would be appreciated.

-Online matches between debaters proves nothing as far character matchups go. They are very amusing, however.

-I'm assuming that no one is assuming anything. That said, please don't put words in other people's mouths, as it only undermines the credibility of the instigator.

 

[Paradigm]

-Can someone who has not already taken a staunch position please test out the god**** projectiles v. sonic sideB issue and clear that up?

Taken a staunch position on what? I could be considered staunch in respect to believing that Sonic can get around Samus' projectiles in a serious match between "good" players. If you'll still take my testing into consideration:

Samus' bombs, full charge shot and homing missiles can all stop Sonic's sideB.

Sonic's sideB will go under empty charge shots and (standing) power missiles.

I expect the zair will stop Sonic's sideB as well, but I couldn't test it. I did this with one hand on each controller, and I'm not quite adept enough yet test to missile cancels or zair effectively in such a situation. Not really sure if you could get the power missiles low enough with a cancel.

-Online matches between debaters proves nothing as far character matchups go. They are very amusing, however.

It may not be practical as proof for, say, a guide or some such, but it can be proof enough for an individual. Sometimes you gotta experience something first-hand before it really sinks in. That was my intention with that offer - not exactly a contribution to the thread as a whole. Unless Dryn has the right equipment to record the demonstration, in which case might be suitable for citation.

 

[I feel asleep]

This is just my personal opinion through the people i play with. B-stick, Wobbles, EoW, Chaostheory, Coreygames, black mamba, glide, ssjlonewolf, choco, taj, dook, goop, altf4, ka, Yamer and a bunch of other AZ players.

Here are my opinions for match-ups that i have had experience with.

Bowser:-Easy match for samus, just don't get gimped by his F-B. 8/10
Captain Falcon:-I have been surprised by one falcon, who got me down to one stock, but other than that little hiccup there hasn't been much trouble. 7/10
Donkey Kong:-Favor's Samus for the most part, haven't seen any real davantages DK has over her. 8/10
Fox:-Not to bad as long as you space your aerials properly. i've gone back and forth with one of AZ's better foxes. 6.5/10
Ganondorf:-Poor ganon :'( 10/10
Ice Climbers:-Z-air and missles make it hard for the IC's to approach, although a well played IC will put up a good fight. 6/10
Ike:-Not an amazing match-up, but not horrible either. 6.5/10
Jigglypuff:-Jiggs F-air can still chain people off the level easily, and it kills at about 90%-120% if the jiggs doesn't use it. also can intercept samus easily, but way to light (dies from d-tilt at 100 or so)and lacks range to put up a real challenge. 7/10
King DeDeDe:-I've played some fierce Dedede..well one i guess EoW, and he gives me a run for my money sometimes, but if i play smart i win. 6/10
Kirby:Surprisingly, i have gone back and forth against kirby's. so i can't give an exact number.
Link:-Poor link. 9/10
Lucario:-I have only lost against Lucario one time, and it was a terrible day for me i was losing to people i usually slaughter(no johns though) but other than that Samus tears through him usually. 8-10
Lucas:-A good Lucas can out-prioritize most of Samus' moves, however, it can go both ways. 5/10
Marth:-Easily in my opinion Samus' WORST match-up. if marth gets in there isn't much you can do. 1/10
Meta Knight:-I have played Wobbles, Demised and a few other good meta knights. he is a hard match-up, but that goes for every character against him, if the MK is dumb though Z-air keeps him grounded. 3/10
Mr. Game & Watch:-Samus destroys G&W, no questions. 8/10
Olimar:-It all depends on how the Olimar plays, if he is smart and runs, it is a hard match, if he tries to beat out your moves, it's easy. but once you get him off the ledge its gg. 7/10
Peach:-No longer do we Samus players fear the D-Smash!. 8/10
Pit:Just camp the ledge, there isn't much pit can do about it. if you play aggressively though the fight goes to pit. 8/10(defensive) 4/10(offensive)
Pokémon Trainer:No trouble so far, 7.5/10
R.O.B.:A true equal match, as long as the Samus doesn't try to beat out ROB's aerials with anything except missles CB and Z-air, it's a relatively easy fight for samus. 6/10
Snake:-Snake really doesn't seem to bad for Samus, as long as you space properly and don't try to come in above him. 7/10
Wario:-Mixed results, it really depends on how the wario plays. (agressive wario 7/10) (defensive wario 4/10)
Wolf:Never had any real trouble with wolf. 7/10
Yoshi:Yoshi has nothing on Samus-9/10
Zelda:Not to bad if you know how to avoid her attacks. 7/10

So, in short, the only true bad match-ups in my experience are Marth and Meta knight. and fighting Meta knight seems winable for the most part.
(will edit later if i can think of anything, but i am getting tired)

 

[Gum]

This is just my personal opinion through the people i play with. B-stick, Wobbles, EoW, Chaostheory, Coreygames, black mamba, glide, ssjlonewolf, choco, taj, dook, goop, altf4, ka, Yamer and a bunch of other AZ players.

Here are my opinions for match-ups that i have had experience with.

Bowser:-Easy match for samus, just don't get gimped by his F-B. 8/10
Captain Falcon:-I have been surprised by one falcon, who got me down to one stock, but other than that little hiccup there hasn't been much trouble. 7/10
Donkey Kong:-Favor's Samus for the most part, haven't seen any real davantages DK has over her. 8/10
Fox:-Not to bad as long as you space your aerials properly. i've gone back and forth with one of AZ's better foxes. 6.5/10
Ganondorf:-Poor ganon :'( 10/10
Ice Climbers:-Z-air and missles make it hard for the IC's to approach, although a well played IC will put up a good fight. 6/10
Ike:-Not an amazing match-up, but not horrible either. 6.5/10
Jigglypuff:-Jiggs F-air can still chain people off the level easily, and it kills at about 90%-120% if the jiggs doesn't use it. also can intercept samus easily, but way to light (dies from d-tilt at 100 or so)and lacks range to put up a real challenge. 7/10
King DeDeDe:-I've played some fierce Dedede..well one i guess EoW, and he gives me a run for my money sometimes, but if i play smart i win. 6/10
Kirby:Surprisingly, i have gone back and forth against kirby's. so i can't give an exact number.
Link:-Poor link. 9/10
Lucario:-I have only lost against Lucario one time, and it was a terrible day for me i was losing to people i usually slaughter(no johns though) but other than that Samus tears through him usually. 8-10
Lucas:-A good Lucas can out-prioritize most of Samus' moves, however, it can go both ways. 5/10
Marth:-Easily in my opinion Samus' WORST match-up. if marth gets in there isn't much you can do. 1/10
Meta Knight:-I have played Wobbles, Demised and a few other good meta knights. he is a hard match-up, but that goes for every character against him, if the MK is dumb though Z-air keeps him grounded. 3/10
Mr. Game & Watch:-Samus destroys G&W, no questions. 8/10
Olimar:-It all depends on how the Olimar plays, if he is smart and runs, it is a hard match, if he tries to beat out your moves, it's easy. but once you get him off the ledge its gg. 7/10
Peach:-No longer do we Samus players fear the D-Smash!. 8/10
Pit:Just camp the ledge, there isn't much pit can do about it. if you play aggressively though the fight goes to pit. 8/10(defensive) 4/10(offensive)
Pokémon Trainer:No trouble so far, 7.5/10
R.O.B.:A true equal match, as long as the Samus doesn't try to beat out ROB's aerials with anything except missles CB and Z-air, it's a relatively easy fight for samus. 6/10
Snake:-Snake really doesn't seem to bad for Samus, as long as you space properly and don't try to come in above him. 7/10
Wario:-Mixed results, it really depends on how the wario plays. (agressive wario 7/10) (defensive wario 4/10)
Wolf:Never had any real trouble with wolf. 7/10
Yoshi:Yoshi has nothing on Samus-9/10
Zelda:Not to bad if you know how to avoid her attacks. 7/10

So, in short, the only true bad match-ups in my experience are Marth and Meta knight. and fighting Meta knight seems winable for the most part.
(will edit later if i can think of anything, but i am getting tired)

For the most part i find this to be pretty accurate, except the DK has some impressive range on his ground attacks and some nasty spikes, but still not a huge problem. But this is why i think Samus is potential high tier in terms of her character. Truth be told she really DOESN'T have any bad match-ups against anyone except Marth and MK. Of course, If you are a good player you can beat them but talking about raw character aspects, they are the only ones that inately give her trouble.

 

[Xyro77]

Play sethlons falco( i do all the time) and tell me falco isnt a bad match up for samus.

 

[I feel asleep]

Play sethlons falco( i do all the time) and tell me falco isnt a bad match up for samus.

I have only played one Falco player so far, ChaosTheory. who happens to be quite good with Falco, I chose not to include Falco in the list because it was just 1 person i have had experience with, so i wouldn't be rating how Falco does against Samus, but would instead be rating how well ChaosTheory does against me.
about a month ago we went back and forth, 50/50 honestly. but i don't play him much nowadays with gas prices being what they are : /

I don't feel she has a 'bad' match-up, but she definitely has to work for the win.

 

[Gum]

take falco to the edge and it turns into Samus' match almost immediately.

 

[Vaul]

@ifeelasleep:..and olimar? i'd rather fight a good marth over a good olimar anyday.

MK is the only disadvantage you listed. I'd include sheik as a minor disadvantage (possibly neautral as well). Oh, and definitely TL.

And there's no way Link has it that bad against samus. Link players would scold thee.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

What's funny is that I can beat the holy hell out of most Marth players I encounter. The only people that really eff me up are Snake and Meta Knight, but even Snake is someone I've beaten before. Meta Knight....ehhhh.....
Since most of my matches are won by devious mindgames and clever gimping, Meta Knight is not easy. For some reason, though, I have a much easier time with Kirby, Pit, and King Dedede than you'd think.

 

[Gum]

yeah MK and olimar are my worst.

 

[Crystanium]

If he's not too terribly far away, once s/he sees Samus morphing, the sonic player could easily run through the bomb and smack Samus up well before it goes off. If he *is* that far away Samus isn't going to be able to do anything to him either. To punish a bomb, he doesn't need to go into the air at all.

Maybe you can do some crazy mindgame with dropping a bomb to punish a sidestep or something along those lines, but for the most part they aren't going to get in a Sonic's way so much as leave Samus vulnerable.

I don't want you to misread what I've been arguing against, Paradigm. I was referring to the Forward+B. In fact, I tested it out today, and the Bombs can cancel and even damage Sonic while his Forward+B is in effect.

Her grab is slow. *Has* to be mindgamed. Sonic could shield to stop his dash and sidestep the grab, then get a semi charged smash off or start some combo. With good mindgames this is certainly an option - her grab is more feasible than it used to be - but it's really not worth considering as one of your primary options.

I just did another test. I was idle, and when Sonic's Forward+B was in effect, I simply pressed Z to grab him. I tried this again, but this time ran at him as he was using his Forward+B, and I still grabbed him. I'll check out the Sonic's dash attack later. My brother is busy creating a stage.

I've beaten L9 CPUs without getting hit only using one hand. (With Marth, anyways.) They're pretty stupid. You can do a whole bunch of stuff to them that won't work on humans. Not a good example to use.

I feel that you're taking me out of context, Paradigm. I mentioned a level 9 CPU to show that you can grab your opponent while he or she is performing his or her dash attack. Mentioning level 9 CPUs only served this purpose in my argument.

The move Sonic uses when you're holding either left or right on the control stick (ie, a "side") and hit the special attack button (which is B on the gamecube controller). Samus' "side b" are her missiles.

I thought so. When Vaul brought to us what ShadowLink84 said about Sonic's Forward+B, and that it is immune to projectiles, I proved him wrong. I showed that the Charge Shot (if charged), the d-tilt and f-smash all cancel out Sonic's Forward+B. I even tested today with my brother that this can be stopped by Samus' Bombs, as well as her grab and f-tilt. ShadowLink84 then mentioned Sonic performing a jump while executing the Forward+B. Even so, that can be screwed up with the Screw Attack, assuming that he doesn't use d-air, or if Samus uses the Screw Attack before the d-air is performed.

Take your pick from nearly any in the Samus video thread.

If there is one between Samus and Sonic, that would be fine. ShadowLink84 offered anyone here to play as Samus while he played as Sonic to see how Samus fares against Sonic. I don't think it would be such a good idea, though, since we would have in our minds that all we're doing is a match to prove who is right. I think it is better to have two persons who don't even know of this, test this out.

The lag could be sufficient to hinder one or both of us, though. You'd be better off going to a tournament or finding some good people nearby-ish and trying it with them.

You're correct here. This is another reason why I am not going to take up ShadowLink84's offer. Even if I were, I'd prefer to be in the same room on the same Wii with certain restrictions: three-stock, 8 minutes, no items.

You're bound to find someone good enough to show you why projectiles in Brawl are not sufficient to stop a good Sonic (or nearly any character).

Paradigm, you're assuming I use projectile alone. Thanks for the response.

 

[Paradigm]

Yeah I probably misunderstood you on most of those. It is certainly possible to grab someone out of their dash attack if they start it to early or are predictable with it, etc.

I also have a post in this thread about 12 hours before your last one claiming similar things about Samus's stuff vs Sonic's sideB.