Samus Guide Going to be Reworked, Hopefully. PLEASE READ!!!

[Hive]

grrr... I must have played KOF's zelda like 50 times today.. for the life of me I think she has the advantage... I must have tried EVERYTHING...

 

[Crystanium]

All right, everyone, I have made several changes with the first post. I decided that I'd make it a guide for Samus. Yes, I know, someone is going to probably say, "But we already have a Samus guide." Please read the first post to see why I made this "2.0."

I still need to add the other information given here. If anyone has any ideas on how I should write the Match-Up List & Metagames, please give me some suggestions.

 

[kongfucius]

Can U-throw be renamed to Tractor Beam? Pleeeeaase????? That's like the only good name I think I came up with in my whatmakesussamusplayersunique thread.

 

[VirisKnite]

Dryn just a suggestion, but I think the updates would be better higher up maybe after the history. That way we'll know whats new before going through the whole thing. Also something I've seen in other threads is using a different color for new updates to easily find them within previous information. Hope this helps.

Also kongfucius, to my knowledge tractor beams pull things in, not shoot/throw/eject them away. Unless they have a reverse setting or something I don't see how it fits. I'm not saying you can't call it that, just at least to me it doesn't make sense.

 

[MetaRidleyX]

I agree with what a lot of people have said already, MK and olimar are definatly some of samus' harder opponents.

Meta Knight: I have yet to face a truely amazing MK, but one of my friends is pretty good. The only reason he get in so many hits is because MK is small and can deal out lots of damage quickly, but lacks good KO moves. So while he can damage samus a lot, there is little chance of him actually killing samus.

Olimar: Once again, he's small, which seems to be a weakness on our favourite bounty hunter. Also, you will have to resort more to melee fighting rather than using ranged attacks, because as long as he has some pikmin out, your missles and beams will be hitting them instead of the little space pilot.

Notice a trend here? It's the small characters that Samus has trouble with. Larger ones such as bowser, dk, triple D and ganon are easy prey for the hunter.

Other than those 2 characters, samus doesnt have much trouble with anyone else. I sometimes have a little trouble with pikachus, squirtles and wolfs however.

 

[kongfucius]

Dryn just a suggestion, but I think the updates would be better higher up maybe after the history. That way we'll know whats new before going through the whole thing. Also something I've seen in other threads is using a different color for new updates to easily find them within previous information. Hope this helps.

Also kongfucius, to my knowledge tractor beams pull things in, not shoot/throw/eject them away. Unless they have a reverse setting or something I don't see how it fits. I'm not saying you can't call it that, just at least to me it doesn't make sense.

But...it just sounds so cool...well in that case how 'bout changing d-tilt to minesweeper?.

 

[Crystanium]

Thanks for the suggestions, VirisKnite. I placed Updates in the third section, and I color-coded each part to make it easier to find. However, I only changed the color of the section names, and not the entire portion of that section.

kongfucius, I'll have to think about giving names for the attacks. If, for example, I said, "This is how you perform Samus' Chozodian Windmill," someone might think, "What the heck is that?" I'm trying to keep the names simplified for everyone to understand. Some are understandable, of course. It would be better to call Samus' u-smash, "Fire Arc," and people might understand what that means. After all, Samus is using fire and angling her attack to look like an arc.

 

[Subach]

Here's a strategy for Pikachu and Jigglypuff matchups by ORLY I found in an older thread.

Pika and jiggs are really light and attack quickly, though they have several attacks that do lag.

Focus your gameplay on defense and punish their approaches with zair. Find an opening and land multi hit attacks such as fair, uair, and screw attack for damage, finish with dtilt. Dtilt is a solid off-the-top kill move. It's a great way to exploit their lightness.

Remember, you can recover from horizontal kill moves, but you can only DI when it comes to vertical kill moves.

 

[kongfucius]

I despise wasted words...or pixels. So here are character specific threads discussed before.

pika: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172282
wolf: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176209
Metaknight: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172251
Olimar: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=158054
Zelda: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173954
Sheik: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173547
Master chief: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176254
Donkey Kong: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179570
Sonic: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179348

and Dryn...this is actually useful stuff so please add this at the very least. I know I haven't been too awfully helpful so far.

 

[Crystanium]

kongfucius, a little advice is better than no advice. One who contributes in anything that helps others, even if ever so little, is highly esteemed in my eyes. I will give my thanks to everyone who took the time to contribute.

 

[kongfucius]

No problem at all...

afterall, this is how things should be.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Concerning that little Sonic Vs. Samus debate

Both sides seems a bit misinformed with each other. I don't agree with Sonic>Samus at all I say it's on the even side. It's a bit late so I'll go more into detail later with no bias at all. If you listen to me, I'll be more than happy to listen to you.

 

[paul1290]

I don't think Samus has that much of a hard time with Sonic, it's just that playing as Samus against Sonic requires changing to a somewhat different strategy then you would use against other characters.

When fighting Sonic you have to focus more on stopping his attacks rather than dodging. A lot of Samus's faster melee moves have priority over most of Sonic's moves so learning to time them right to stop Sonic makes beating him a lot easier than it would be otherwise.

 

[Crystanium]

All right, everyone. I've added two updates to this thread, and I have changed the name of it. I've also added several comments to Samus' attacks. I think many of you will enjoy this. I'm still not finished with the comments for the attacks, but I think that will be enough for tonight.

 

[paul1290]

Just a couple small things I think would also be helpful to add to the guide.

The hitbox for down smash is a little bit taller than it looks and the opponent doesn't necessairly have to be touching the foot to be hit by it. It seems to extend almost up to shoulder level.

Forward smash can be half-stepped to extend its range a little bit. It's not much but it still helps since the attack can often be a bit too short.

 

[Crystanium]

All right, Samus players, I really need some assistance here. I know that my guide has been very quiet and out of the way, but I'm trying to figure out how I'll be able to test out the knock-back for each of Samus' attacks. I want to place them under for types of scores: Poor, Fair, Good, and Excellent.

Please, please, please help me with this so that the Samus community can grow. I've been trying out a few attacks in the order of the Basic Techniques, and I was typing down what was Poor, Fair, Good, and Excellent. But then I couldn't figure out things like knock-back if Samus were to use her d-tilt or d-smash, since the characters fly upward. I thought I'd go by the diamond shape in Final Destination to figure this out, but I noticed that a fully charged f-smash knocked Mario further back than Samus' fully charged Charge Shot. So please, I beg all of you, if you can, to provide some info!

 

[SarahHarp]

Typically, you play with things in training mode. Mario seems to be the common test subject too.
I think knockback is somewhat derived by the % it KO's at from a common point. Once you've collected all the percents various moves KO at, you use this range and determine the best/good/ave/poor/lowest knockback factors (lower % = more knockback).

 

[Crystanium]

Typically, you play with things in training mode. Mario seems to be the common test subject too.
I think knockback is somewhat derived by the % it KO's at from a common point. Once you've collected all the percents various moves KO at, you use this range and determine the best/good/ave/poor/lowest knockback factors (lower % = more knockback).

That's an interesting way. Maybe I'll go try that out. I just wasn't sure if I wanted to do it that way, though, because the character is already at a high percent, and when there is more percent, the weaker the character is. For example, if you play as G&W and fill his bucket, it will sometimes KO your opponent at 60%, and the knock-back is extremely incredible. It's basically 0-death.

 

[SarahHarp]

You want the character to be "weak" to you can get the exact % a move KOs at. When you gather all these, you can get your knockback ratios which can then be applied to a character despite if their % is 0, or their % 150.

You can think of it in terms of math:
Say a knockback value of 1.0 = the distance from the center of the map to a KO boundary.
Now lets say an fsmash KO's at 150%, and an ftilt KO's at 200% (I just made this up for this example) These two values have a relationship between each other (one's always a certain % lower than the other.)
To see this relationship, set both moves at the same % (say, 200%), ftilt will KO at this range exactly (so ftilt = 1.0 (200/200)), and fsmash kills sooner than this range (200/150 = 1.3).
So, it can be said that fsmash has 30% more knockback than ftilt. This ratio will be the same whether the character is currently "strong" (low %), or "weak" (high %).
The same example using a lower % (rather than 200), say 10%: fmash = 10/150 = .0666. ftilt = 10/200 = .05. Fsmash still is 30% larger than the ftilt.
So it does not matter that you're collecting values using high percents

(I hope this actually helped instead of confused you)

 

[Coldfront]

Um, regarding knock-back, I've got some KO percents. I'll just copy paste from my thread. Interesting thing is that some characters are more susceptible to certain attacks.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used Wolf and Final Destination as starting point for these figures. This was done in training mode, so adjust the numbers a little for human players having perhaps better DI.
M.O.S. = Middle of stage, E.O.S. = End of stage, AFS= Upward-Angled Forward Smash

Samus vs. Wolf on Final Destination KO percents:
M.O.S.: CS=120%, AFS=130% Utilt=140%

E.O.S.: CS=90%, AFS=100% Utilt=100%

Dtilt=140%

Characters:
Wario: +10 all attacks
Snake: +10
Fox: -20
Falco: -10
DDD: +10
Sonic: Same, AFS -10
Marth: -10
G&W: -20, CS-10
R.O.B.: Same, CS+10
Toon Link: -10, CS same
MetaKnight: -10, Dtilt-20
Zelda: -10, Dtilt -20
Ike: +10, AFS same
Mario: Same
Lucas: Same, -10 Dtilt
Ness: Same, -10 Dtilt

Stages (Compared to FD):
Norfair: Top platform -30 vertical advantage, middle -20, bottom +10, Same horizontal
Lylat: Same horizontal, -10 vertical on platform
Wario Ware: -20 horizontal, -10 vertical middle platform, -20 vertical top platform
Halberd: -10 vertical on edges, -30 vertical on platform
Yoshi's Island: Same
Smashville: -10 vertical platorm, horizontal same
Super Circuit: -20 horizontal, +20 vertical on bottom
Battlefield: Same horizontal, -30 vertical top platform, -15 vertical middle platform
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hope it helps

 

[Crystanium]

You want the character to be "weak" to you can get the exact % a move KOs at. When you gather all these, you can get your knockback ratios which can then be applied to a character despite if their % is 0, or their % 150.

You can think of it in terms of math:
Say a knockback value of 1.0 = the distance from the center of the map to a KO boundary.
Now lets say an fsmash KO's at 150%, and an ftilt KO's at 200% (I just made this up for this example) These two values have a relationship between each other (one's always a certain % lower than the other.)
To see this relationship, set both moves at the same % (say, 200%), ftilt will KO at this range exactly (so ftilt = 1.0 (200/200)), and fsmash kills sooner than this range (200/150 = 1.3).
So, it can be said that fsmash has 30% more knockback than ftilt. This ratio will be the same whether the character is currently "strong" (low %), or "weak" (high %).
The same example using a lower % (rather than 200), say 10%: fmash = 10/150 = .0666. ftilt = 10/200 = .05. Fsmash still is 30% larger than the ftilt.
So it does not matter that you're collecting values using high percents

(I hope this actually helped instead of confused you)

Math has never been my forte. I am more confused.

ColdFront, your list confuses me as well.

 

[Coldfront]

Alright, I'll try saying it a different way. Let's say you're fighting Wolf. He's standing in the middle of Final Destination, and you manage to hit him with a charge shot. He has to be at at least 120% before the charge shot connects for it to KO him, including DI.

If you were in the same position with Snake, he would need to be at 130% for it to KO him. The difference is 10%, and it's the same with the Fsmash, Dtilt, and Utilt, so I just put +10, meaning Snake has to be 10% higher in the same situation as Wolf for it to KO.

For Marth, it's the opposite. It takes 10% less to KO him in the same situations with the same moves, so I put -10.

ROB is the same as Wolf, except he for whatever reason has more resistance to the charge shot, and that move requires him to be at 10% more than what is required to KO Wolf. So I put +10 CS only

Fox KO's at 20% less than what is required to KO Wolf, so I put -20.

Zelda and MK have to be 10% less than what Wolf is required to be at to KO, except for Dtilt which KO's them at 20% less than what Wolf is required to be at.

Actually, I'll just make a list with all the characters KO percents.

 

[Crystanium]

Well, ColdFront, thanks for the explanation. I am going to use Final Destination for my testing area and Mario as the test subject. I'll test it out from the center stage, too.

 

[Crystanium]

All right, people, here's what I have so far. It's not finished, but I think under the percentages, it would help us understand what goes where. When I get this done, I'll be adding in the knock-back information.

-----------------------------------------------

Stage: Final Destination, center stage.
Test Subject: Mario

• Very Poor: ???% - 999%
• Poor:
• Fair:
• Good:
• Excellent: 0% - ???%

• Jab: 610% (initial) 234% (second)
• Dash: 341% (indirect) 207% (direct)
• U-tilt: 153%
• F-tilt: 252% (straight) 184% (angled up) 184% (angled down)
• D-tilt: 131%
• U-smash: n/a (uncharged) n/a (charged)
• F-smash: 133% (uncharged) 123% (uncharged up) 145% (uncharged down) 90% (charged) 82% (charged up) 100% (charged down)
• D-smash: 144% (uncharged front) 246% (uncharged back) 97% (charged front) 173% (charged back)
• N-air: 262%
• U-air: n/a
• F-air: 267%
• D-air: 163%
• B-air: 171% (indirect) 122% (direct)
• Z-air: (indirect) (direct)
• B: Unable to KO (uncharged) 109% (charged)
• Up+B: n/a
• Forward+B: Unable to KO (Homing) 282% (Super)
• Down+B: 756% (indirect) 808% (direct)
• Zero Laser: 9%
• U-throw: 250%
• F-throw: 297%
• D-throw: 334%
• B-throw: 283%

-----------------------------------------------

How should I use the grading scale that I have above? Any ideas would be much appreciated. Please keep in mind that once this is finished, I won't be placing in the Knock-Back information on the first page with the amount of percent as seen here. I am using this percent information so that I can rate which is stronger and which is weaker.

Edit: I don't know how I will get information for the Screw Attack, the u-air, as well as the u-smash.

 

[Jaigoda]

(I'm new to SWF and Samus as well, so I apologize for any ignorance of mine.) I'm thinking maybe something like this:

Insane: 0% - 30%
Excellent: 31% - 130%
Good: 131% - 175%
Fair: 176% - 225%
Poor: 226% - 300%
Very Poor: 300% - 999%

Also, I think anything that's within 15% of the next highest rank would be considered both(i.e. uncharged Fsmash is within 15% of excellent, but is still in the good category, so would be considered excellent-good) . I reordered your list so that it starts with the strongest and ends with the weakest, and shows the ranks:

Insane
Zero Laser: 9%
-------
Excellent
F-smash: 82% (charged up)
F-smash: 90% (charged)
D-smash: 97% (charged front)
F-smash: 100% (charged down)
B: 109% (charged)
B-air: 122% (direct)
F-smash: 123% (uncharged up)
-------
Excellent-Good
D-tilt: 131%
F-smash: 133% (uncharged)
D-smash: 144% (uncharged front)
F-smash: 145% (uncharged down)
-------
Good
U-tilt: 153%
D-air: 163%
B-air: 171% (indirect)
D-smash: 173% (charged back)
-------
Good-Fair
F-tilt: 184% (angled up)
F-tilt: 184% (angled down)
-------
Fair
Dash: 207% (direct)
-------
Fair-Poor
Jab: 234% (second)
D-smash: 246% (uncharged back) -- I know it should be in Poor, but I think it deserves a tad higher
-------
Poor
U-throw: 250%
F-tilt: 252% (straight)
N-air: 262%
F-air: 267%
Forward+B: 282% (Super)
B-throw: 283%
F-throw: 297%
-------
Very Poor
D-throw: 334%
Dash: 341% (indirect)
Jab: 610% (initial)
Down+B: 756% (indirect)
Down+B: 808% (direct)

What do you think? Feel free to completely disregard this if you want to, but I thought it would at least be a good place to start. I hope it helps!

 

[Crystanium]

That's a very colorful list. I created a thread recently called Using the Grading Scale For Knock-Back Information at the Brawl Tactical Discussion. BurningCrusader777 gave me his opinion on how the grading scale should be.

• Very Poor - 300%-999%
• Poor - 150% - 299%
• Fair - 125% -149%
• Good - 100% - 124%
• Excellent - 0% - 100%

It's not as simple as this, though. Due to its technicality, I have decided to move onto the Match-Up List & Metagames, which is in the first page of my thread. I have asked the Bowser community on what they think about the match-up between Bowser and Samus.

By the way, I wouldn't want the word "Insane" for my list, because "Insane" isn't a grade. What is more, "Excellent" is the highest. If we were to use "Insane," that would just replace "Excellent" in my opinion, very much like "Average" would replace "Fair." Thanks for the list, though.

Edit: Actually, I went back to my thread and I think I understand now.

 

[Jaigoda]

Also, one important note I forgot to mention is that things often have static amound of knockback as well as a variable amounts of knockback. I didn't test a whole lot, but the main ones I saw were the throws, and I'm sure I can find a few more. In other words, say the Fthrow, you throw them back a good ways even at 0%. But, it doesn't scale up much from then on, which is why you have to get someone to nearly 300% to KO.

IMO, knockback isn't just important for KO's, but is also needed at low percentages in order to stop from being attacked back (obviously, most everyone here will know this). So, I think to get a very good idea of the knockback, we need to extensively test each move and look at the KO% needed (which we already have) as well as how much knockback it starts with.

For instance, while a straight Ftilt has very little KO potential, I still feel it is a very good move for keeping foes off of you if they're at 50%+ or so. The same goes for a neutral A attack. In other words, I think we need to look at a move's knockback as a whole, rather that just saying, "oh, it KO's a 'x' percentage, so it falls under 'y' percentage."

But again, I could be completely wrong and I will understand if any or all of this is dismissed.

 

[Crystanium]

Well, I have sent a message to Adapt, a Zero Suit Samus mainer. He has explained two types of knock-back, the other one being knock-back growth rate (KGR hereafter). Since I have learned how to collect information for the KGR, I am going to add those in.

 

[0RLY]

*shoots self because I got an error after spending over an hour of typing and I can't get the page back*

 

[Crystanium]

0RLy, why did you write "early" where it said "late"? If you use the Dash Attack early, it does 6% damage and you're still in front of your opponent. If you use it late, it does 10% damage and you end up behind your opponent.

 

[0RLY]

X=target
O=Samus
*=damage
<=movement
..=empty space

Early:

..X..........O..
..X..........O..
..X..........O..

..X*O<<<<..
..X*O<<<<..
..X*O<<<<..

Late:

......X....O...
......X....O...
......X....O...

..O<<.X*<...
..O<<.X*<...
..O<<.X*<...

 

[Crystanium]

X=target
O=Samus
*=damage
<=movement
..=empty space

Early:

..X..........O..
..X..........O..
..X..........O..

..X*O<<<<..
..X*O<<<<..
..X*O<<<<..

Late:

......X....O...
......X....O...
......X....O...

..O<<.X*<...
..O<<.X*<...
..O<<.X*<...

You know, 0RLy, if you run at your opponent and tap A right when you're next to them, that would be considered late, because you delayed using your attack when you were approaching your opponent. If you ran at your opponent and tapped A when you weren't close to them, but were close enough to use the dash attack anyway, that would be considered early, because you attacked earlier and still had that space to cover with running.

 

[0RLY]

Whupz. Hay everybody, use Dash Attack only in close range! [/serious]

 

[Crystanium]

Whupz. Hay everybody, use Dash Attack only in close range! [/serious]

QFT. It also does an additional 4% damage.

 

[MrEh]

I mind as well contribute some Ground, Edge, and Recovery information about Bowser.


Ground: This is where Bowser excels, and this is also the main reason why Samus has to keep Bowser as far away from her as possible. It's a common misconception that Bowser has slow attacks and is very laggy. While all of his smashes and most of his aerials are slow, Bowser's jabs and tilts are not something to mess around with. His jabs some out almost instantly, and the 2nd jab has as much range as his Ftilt! Jabs, along with Bowser's awesome Ftilt, will be used to attack Samus from a distance, where she will be unable to attack with tilts of her own. Getting Bowser away from you should be your number 1 priority. Without proper camping and distance, fighting Bowser is like fighting a brick wall. So utilize your grab and your Zair to give yourself more room. When distance is established, start the missile spamming. Once the missile and Zair spam is established, you really start to control Bowser.

Another thing you should watch out for is Bowser's grab. Bowser was blessed with an awesome grab release, so he could potentially jab, Ftilt, Dtilt, Klaw, shoot fire, grab you again, or even Bowser Bomb right out of a grab. A good Bowser player will always mix up his grab releases to be unpredictable, and it is very important for you to not fall for his tricks. Let's say that after a grab release, you predict that Bowser will use his Ftilt, so you spot dodge. Instead of using his Ftilt, Bowser might shoot fire at you instead, and we all know how much that situation sucks for Samus. So always remember that Bowser can do very mean things out of a grab, and it should be avoided at all costs.

On a side note, try to be careful when you attack Bowser with your tilts and jabs. Like Samus, Bowser can use his UpB out of his Shield, and Bowser is essentially the poster boy for that. Out off all the characters that can use their UpB out of a shield, Bowser is probably the most deadly, since he doesn't go airborne when he does his.


EDGE: Bowser absolutely loves to edgeguard, and any moment Samus is off the ledge is potentially dangerous for her. I know that some Samus players are fond of using her Utilt as a decent edgeguard against recovering foes, and Bowser can use his Dtilt and Ftilt to the same effect. Bowser can also blast fire at you from the ledge, so you need to watch out for that. Using your Zair as a recovery should help you avoid the flames, but it probably wouldn't be a good idea to use your Screw Attack, since I think the flames cut right through it.

As always, watch out for Bowser intercepting you in air and hitting you with a Fair, or god forbid, a Uair. An Fair off the ledge will probably kill samus at about 70%. A Uair will kill her at even less, so take care not to get hit by it. Always remember that Bowser's Uair is like an aerial smash, and it kills at very low percentages. Watch out for his Klaw as well, since he can Bowsercide you when you're off the ledge.


RECOVERY: Boswer has a very predictable recovery, so it shouldn't be that hard for you to edgeuard him. You could grab the ledge, wait until he gets near, then fall and use your Zair to grab the ledge again. When you grab the ledge again, your invincibility frames refresh, and Bowser will most likely fall to his doom.

Since Bowser is such a huge target, he's spikealicious. However, the spike may not work on Bowser all the time, especially if the Bowser player has good timing. The reason for this is that Bowser's Fortress has invincibility frames. So if the Fortress and Samus's Dair clash, the Fortress will win. I wouldn't worry too much about this though, since the invincibility frames are only present during the initial startup of the move. You could very well spike him right after the move starts up.

The final thing I'm going to say is that you should watch out for his Klaw. It's very embarrassing to have your edgeuarding attempt foiled by a Bowsercide.

 

[Crystanium]

Nice information, MrEh! I appreciate the information that you have given very much! I should note that "Edge" has to do more with edge-gaming, rather than edge-guarding. I'll probably make a distinction between the two when I go back to edit the information for Bowser and the others. Edge-gaming is a word that hasn't been seen here at SWF or AiB. I coined the term, but it has been around since Super Smash Bros. for the Nintendo 64. I define edge-gaming as using attacks from the edge. It's literally fighting on the edge. Tapping neutral A while on the edge is an edge-game. Jumping away from the edge and using Samus' f-air is another. Everyone has a different edge-game, and some have it better than others.

 

[MrEh]

Ah, I understand. In that case...


EDGE: Bowser's attack off the ledge comes out very quick, and has a large hitbox. It's easy to shieldgrab, but more often then not you won't be able to see it coming. It's not really something you need to watch out for, but it's worth noting. I'm not really going to talk about his roll or 100% ledge attack, they're both slow and easily punishable.

Bowser can also drop from the ledge, jump up, and use his Fair or Uair. Watch out for that, esspecially the Uair. And although it's a novelty, Bowser can also use his Klaw in an attempt to Bowsercide you. (Or to try and slam you onto the stage.)

Finally, watch out for Bowser's Return Fire.

 

[Falcos_feather]

I really believe every character can do great depending on the player. And I especially believe that for Samus. She has moves good enough to destroy opponents as long as you play well and smart

You give my Samus hope

thank you!

 

[JoeMotion]

So yesterday I was playing my friend. He was Lucas and I was Samus. I shot a fully charged charged beam at him and then f-smashed him before he flew off. Damage was pretty low but looked cool.

Just wondering if people have done this before?

 

[0RLY]

Yeah, charge shot has a stunning effect. Very old.