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Samus' Detailed Matchup Guide ; #5 Snake

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Royta

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writeup is up, ike next, informed ike boards, enjoy! ;p I'll post my 5 cents lateron

note: we'll have to get back on GaW somewhat later on, since some sections are a little bland.
 

DelxDoom

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Ike users have a dangerous Fair which can mess with your sh missile/zair game, and their Jab combos and jab mixups. They also have a quick bair which can hit Samus because Samus is large.
They also use quick draw (side b) for some decent movement contrary to most Ike movement. Just know the rest of his moveset too.

The best way to deal with these is to zair to stuff his fair/nair approaches. Counter ftilt or dsmash out of shield for obvious things, like the third hit of his jab... if you shield the first hits of his jab, it's safe enough to roll away (even though I really don't like the prospect of rolling, Ike is only going to hit you if he predicts your roll with a shorthop fair, and even that has a good chance of missing).

Be fast, own him in the air, don't run into swords.

He has some long lasting stuff, smashes, uair and ftilt can kill you.

Get him offstage, and he probably will get back on with his up b =_=

50:50 imo >.>
 

Crystanium

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Fighting against a really good Ike has been a pain for me. Maybe it's because he lives in Georgia, and the lag isn't helping, but after fighting a really good Ike, you ask yourself, "Ike can spam?" One of Ike's favorite methods from my experience is his jab. He can jab twice, then cancel, then jab again and do the full three hits, or he can jab twice and then cancel it to a grab. This is one of the most annoying attacks I've ever come across. It's even worse when he perfect-shields your Homing Missiles and z-air. Again, my experience has been in lag, and Ike is top-tier when it comes to Wi-Fi.
 

Kalm

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This matchup, like all of Ike's matchups, have to take Ike's recovery into consideration just about before all else. I don't see Samus being about to easily spike Ike, but gimping him from a stage like FD seems as standard as most other characters. However, other than that Ike beats Samus in raw KO power just about every way possible.
Samus has the projectiles, another big different maker, and she can really hold out using them an Zair to space Ike and his bigass sword. However, when the distance is closed and Ike is in close or right next to close, Samus loses most all options, she should very few chances to grab him, and if she's not setup for a Zair she's practically forced to run, or otherwise play very defensive. This situation will come into play a lot and be what decides the fight more than anything else should. Ike should be able to effectively edge guard Samus as well, whereas Samus herself should have a tougher time in that area.
In the end, it feels like Ike may have a slighter advantage over Samus, take into consideration stages, and I feel battlefield could be a 55-45 for Ike, Corneria could be a 60-40 for him, and a stage like FD should be 50-50.
I just can't see the advantage tipping to Samus's favor in this matchup.
 

Sago

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ike is a joke for samus, i have no issue with ike one there off there most likley dead you can missle or zair his up b unless you sweatspots its very well which isent likley
 

Kalm

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Because we all know good Ike mains don't care about being gimped and never bother to sweetspot their recoveries or otherwise recover like intelligent people.
 

Nidtendofreak

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lol at Ike boards being busy. We have like, 8 people at best who go to tournaments regularly, and small number of people that plan too, but are in a bad area for tournaments/too young/don't have the money/etc, and then random people that come, ask one or two noob questions and leave. >_>

Anyhow, I have very minimal experience against Samus. Just online against a guy I only ever beat once. And that was against a character he was trying for the first time. I haven't played another Samus since, and I don't poke around this board too much, so please correct me if I get some things wrong.

---

Samus is one of the few characters that can genuinely say that their projectiles affect the match-up. Unlike Luigi or Ivy where the projectile has basically no affect due to their speed and spamability, Samus has 4 projectiles, all of which that can play a roll in helping her in this match-up. I find it not dissimilar from the Link match-up, just switch the bad recovery flaw with the hard time KOing flaw, and throw in a not quite as affective close range combat ability. Ike has a tough time getting up close, but once he's up close, Samus will have a hard time getting him out of her face.

Z-air, obviously, is a saving grace for Samus in this match-up. It's one of the 4 non-projectile moves that can out range Ike's fair in the air. Use it. A lot. Particularly once he's out of optimal missile range. It will force him to either shield or dodge. However, once you're in fair range, it's usefulness with diminish somewhat.

Speaking of the missiles, they can defiantly hurt Ike's approach. Particularly the homing ones. I believe there is a way for Samus to fire off 3 of them between her 2 jumps, canceling the last one correct? Use that tech. However, be aware that a lot of Ike's attacks can cut through the missiles, cause them to go off, and leave him unharmed. If they are fired too closely together, an fair could take out the first two, and leave Ike with enough time to shield the third one. Perhaps mix it up with a super missile as the third one at ground level.

Oddly enough, I believe that bombs may cause more of a problem for Ike then the charge shot. Ike spends a lot of his time either on the ground, or SHing an aerial. Bombs can affectively block him, if only momentarily, or disrupt his attack. Anytime you aren't using a different projectile or zair, and he isn't in your face jabbing, drop one of these.

The last of Samus's projectiles, the charge shot, has it's uses alright in this match-up. It has a bit more hit-stun then her other projectiles, meaning there is a very small, but still usable, chance of another projectile that was already in motion hitting Ike during the hitstun while he's unable to dodge. As for a fully charged shot as an KOing option, I find it unlikely to occur, but plausible. Just be sure you don't fire off a fully-charged one when in counter range......


Thats quite a wall of projectiles Ike has to get through, but once he gets through, he will quickly rack up the damage on Samus. Jab Canceling everyone knows about, and just how deadly it is. A few rounds of jabs, and Ike has probably made up the damage he took getting to Samus. His throws are weak enough he can flow attacks out of them easily, Utilt and Aether hold back a lot of Samus's aerial options outside of Zair, Jab beats out her other options on the ground. That, combined with the fact Samus lacks an easy way to juggle Ike (unlike fox who has his utilt), Ike has the advantage here.

If it goes up close air-to-air combat, Ike has the advantage if he's above, below, or behind Samus, but is most likely at a disadvantage if he's in front due to that pesky Zair. Ike's Nair and Uair outlast AD's, Bair comes out frame 7, Dair is the 4th most powerful spike in the game, and Fair beats out Samus's non Zair attacks in range. Keep Ike in front of you at all times, otherwise Samus will be eating Ragnell. Ike needs to avoid being in front of Samus as much as possible, or else he will be eating Zair to the face.

In pure KOing terms, Ike has a very clear advantage. Every move except 3 of his throws can KO. Samus has some weight to help her, but Ike has better survivability. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Samus's main KOing move is Dtilt, which KO's vertically. Ike is great at surviving vertical KO attempts. One of the best in the game in fact. 5th best IIRC. Make sure you keep Dtilt fresh, because even then it's going to take a while for Dtilt to KO Ike. Samus's other options for KOing are gimping.

This is where it gets a bit more interesting. If Ike is off stage, his ability to get back really matters on a lot of factors, and one in particular: has he used his Second jump yet or not. If you start pelting him with Zair or missiles before he has used his second jump, he still has a good chance of making back. Zair and missiles simply don't knock him far enough back unless he's at very high %s. His aerial movement is on par with Toon Link's, so a small knockback while he still has his second jump isn't going to do much. During Aether, you have to hope to hit him during the peak. However, if your attack knocks him upwards (like Zair does IIRC), you just made his time a whole lot easier. Now he can quickly throw out quick draw and get the heck away from the edge of the stage while taking only a minimal amount more damage. If it knocks him backwards, it better be a good amount. While Ike has probably already used his second jump by this point, he can still move back towards the stage edge and try again. A fully charged shot would do the trick here. However, it would be easier for Samus to attempt to Dair spike him, or stage spike him with a Bair then to try to keep him back with missiles and Zair. Samus's best bet is to land a Dsmash, which can send Ike into his dead zone rather quickly, so she doesn't even have to bother with gimping. >_>

When the coin is flipped on the other end, Ike does have some methods of gimping Samus. I've found Dtilt to work better on Samus's Up B then a lot of other Up Bs. Same idea with Eruption and Dair. However, Samus also has her grapple to grab the ledge with. This can work, and is probably the best option for Samus. Just be aware there is still danger in doing this. Ike can fall down the grapple line and throw out a Dair in an attempt to spike Samus while she's still hanging. When recovering as Samus, take the time to throw out a missile or Zair to knock Ike back long enough to grab the ledge.


Overall, I feel that the match-up is 6-4 Ike's Advantage. Again, comparing it to the Link match up (which is around 5-5), Ike has a hard time getting to attack range, but once he's inside Samus has a harder time getting Ike out then Link does and a harder time ranking up damage outside of projectiles, combined with the fact she has a harder time KOing Ike then Link does.

For stages, Samus should shoot for FD. No way for Ike to use platforms to avoid some of the projectiles, or to use his own set ups with the platforms. Ike will probably be aiming for BF for his neutral pick. For CPs, Jungle Japes is always a good CP against Ike. Ike fails there, hard. Outside of that stage, it really depends on the Ike's playing style. Some Ikes even like RC as a CP stage. However, Samus should defiantly strike Pirate Ship. It's Ike's best stage by far. Ike has his water spikes (Aether -> Dair works like a charm), aether sliding, wall infinities, low gravity for his AD eating aerials, good platform spacing, it has everything for Ike. Worse of all (in Samus's prospective), you can't really gimp him outside of landing a spike yourself.


I think I covered it all....
 

Royta

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@ Nfreak, nice write! Nice amount of information there. I'll have to plow through it deeper later in the afternoon.

My opinion in this matchup, it's probably the only matchup for Ike where he has a nice advantage against a projectile users. Our homing missiles are too slow to really slow him down, fully charged charge shots and Zair's are the only thing that keep him at distance.

Once Ike is in our range we're in heavy trouble, his Jab will wreak almost everything we can throw at him. Killing him will consist mostly of gimping him with Zair, but good Ike's are hard to gimp since they are hardend veterans at it. NEVER be predictable against an Ike, he'll punish you hard. Never use a roll if it's unsafe, an Fsmash will be waiting.
And becarefull of that ledge-attack, his Fsmash outranges it so he'll get a freekill if you miss-time it.

When it comes down to counterpicks, avoid battlefield at all costs. It's Ike creme de la creme stage, same goes for stages with walls (he can infinite Fthrow you, not sure if this works as well on Samus though??).
FD is your safest bet once more, keep him at distance and try and Zair gimp him. A homing missile will also work if you're lucky.

Not an easy matchup for us, i'd say somewhere around 6-4 ~ 7-3, not sure.
 

Cherry64

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Fighting against a really good Ike has been a pain for me. Maybe it's because he lives in Georgia, and the lag isn't helping, but after fighting a really good Ike, you ask yourself, "Ike can spam?" One of Ike's favorite methods from my experience is his jab. He can jab twice, then cancel, then jab again and do the full three hits, or he can jab twice and then cancel it to a grab. This is one of the most annoying attacks I've ever come across. It's even worse when he perfect-shields your Homing Missiles and z-air. Again, my experience has been in lag, and Ike is top-tier when it comes to Wi-Fi.

Agreed. Lag makes his hits seem to hit a hell of a lot more than they do without Wi-Fi. I play a decent ike too and I fought a samus and it seems even to me. maybe a bit more in Samus's favor 55:45 for S. Only because of projectiles though. Just space well and drop bombs like they are fat kids eating your cake.
 

The Milk Monster

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Well..It's Ike, his recovery is pretty easy to stand in the way of, regardless of if he is recovering horizontally, or vertically.

Missiles and uncharged b's can stop him from approaching you, and if you camp right, he'll be forced to attempt an approach, which will soon be stopped.

One hit from Ike though and it's gonna' take a toll on Samus, so keep the pressure up with missiles, neutral b's(charged or not), and zairs.

On the topic of Zair's, if he's recovering horizontally, zair's will **** him massively, usually one will be enough to get him far enough out to not recover.

Well really, anything will **** his recovery. If you end up on BF with an Ike, be careful, he can throw those aerials out very sneaky, but use this to your advantage.

If he misses an aerial(since all his aerials have a significant amount of lag 'cept nair and bair), punish with your bair through the platforms, or even a charge shot if you have it ready.

Dtilt to uair works wonders in this match up, since Ike's carrying so much weight and all.

I would say from the little bit of input I've put in, it'd be 55:45 Samus for Samus has a lot of tools to prevent Ike from recovering.

As long as the Ike tries to get the Samus to come to him, this match up can go either way, as long as the Ike is on the course, take control of the course and land that forward smash!
 

Ravin

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45 - 55 ike. BF 55 - 45 Samus. FD 50 - 50. Smash - 60 - 40 Ike.


most other stages go either way. Samus has the up on BF imo. its her stage.
 

Nidtendofreak

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BF is Ike's neutral stage as well. >_> He hits platforms above him with Utilt, Usmash, Eruption, Uair, Fsmash, Fair, Nair, and Aether. He hits people below him when on the lower platforms with Dtilt (if tall enough), Eruption, Dair, Fall through Bair, and fall through Counter. His throws are also perfect for tossing people onto the lower platforms, where if they miss the tech, they WILL get hit with Uair (even if they get the tech, it's a good chance they will eat Uair). Uair lasts longer then rolls, ADs, stuff like that.

The slants on BF also let him recovery without getting gimped. He can just slide up them with Aether and be protected the whole time.
 

Ravin

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Samus's ability to combo someone above the plateform does more damage then getting hit for 10 with a rediculous knockback.


Ike x Samus is really pretty even. It boils down to KO power, which is why i push for Ikes favor in this one. If say Samus's charged shot, or even Zair had more knockback, she could have it, but no.

BF is still a better choice for Samus, If you wanted to take a Samus down with Ike, go Smash. No plateforms or room for Samus to play freely in.

Did i mention jab combo to grab + Predict on Samus = ike wins?
 

The Milk Monster

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1. Samus's ability to combo someone above the plateform does more damage then getting hit for 10 with a rediculous knockback.


2. Ike x Samus is really pretty even. It boils down to KO power, which is why i push for Ikes favor in this one. If say Samus's charged shot, or even Zair had more knockback, she could have it, but no.

3. BF is still a better choice for Samus, If you wanted to take a Samus down with Ike, go Smash. No plateforms or room for Samus to play freely in.

4. Did i mention jab combo to grab + Predict on Samus = ike wins?
Numbered it so I can reply to each part.

1. Are you saying that her combo is better then a 10% attack with ridiculous knock back? If so I agree, though she doesn't have Melee bomb jumping, her tether does miracles.

2. It really does come down to KO power, which Ike obviously has. If the Samus zair's properly, she can really get in the way of the recovering Ike though. As long as the Ike plays smart, this scenario shouldn't be the only thing holding him back in this match up.

3. Most all heavies excel on courses with platforms. If you really want the match up to be in your favor, go to Final D. (Not sure how other Samus's like Final D, but I despise it.)

4. Ike will win the match with a missed grab basically. The Samus should play it really really careful with her grabs, stunning with missiles and uncharged neutral b's, but seriously, doing some pivot grabs every now again to switch it up and throw the Ike off. Do not rely on throws in this match up though, a missed one could cost you a stock.
 

Ravin

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I hate FD, thats my banned stage o3o Lol

Tounry - SDSG - I ban... Pirate Ship.

Me - ... FD.

SDSG - ... Are you serious?

Gogogogo
 

The Milk Monster

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I hate FD, thats my banned stage o3o Lol

Tounry - SDSG - I ban... Pirate Ship.

Me - ... FD.

SDSG - ... Are you serious?

Gogogogo
I main Snake too, and though the lip isn't that much of a problem anymore, I ban FD usually, sort of a pre match mind game. amirite? ^^
 

Nidtendofreak

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Obviously, I don't know how much BF helps Samus, but by far BF is the neutral that helps Ike the most in match-ups, with the exception of Marth or G&W, who we take to FD instead. Possibly the same issue with Snake....

Unless Delfino is a neutral, in which case it's often better the BF. Water spiking FTW.

Just a bit of a heads up, thats all. You're more then welcome to choose what ever stage you want.
 

n00b

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Obviously, I don't know how much BF helps Samus, but by far BF is the neutral that helps Ike the most in match-ups, with the exception of Marth or G&W, who we take to FD instead. Possibly the same issue with Snake....

Unless Delfino is a neutral, in which case it's often better the BF. Water spiking FTW.

Just a bit of a heads up, thats all. You're more then welcome to choose what ever stage you want.
Everything you just said about Ike could be said for Samus too..
 

Ravin

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We could easily say its 50 50 on BF , all the good ikes i have ever EVER fought on BF it was down to the last stock, both within killing percents. It could go either way.
 

Ravin

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Sounds **** good to me.

I dont mind for some friendlies to test them out, if youd like Nid, id just have to force myself out of bed.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Small problems.

1) I'm not that good of an Ike yet. I have the knowledge, but not the ability yet. Only been to one tournament, and I was in the same pool with the likes of Hylian. Didn't end well.

2) My Ike is terrible online. I do better with Falcon then Ike online, which is very sad to say the least.

3) Oddly enough, I have never won a match at Smashville. Any serious match that is. I just hate that stage with a passion.

4) I have homework. >_> Senior year often has little homework for me, but not tonight.


So, ya........not the best idea on my end. Sorry.
 

Ravin

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Not really, the matchup is pretty even <.< Id tip it to Ike. He just has more going for him. Samus has the range, ike has the power.
 

Ravin

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I agree as well. 55:45 Ike

Just waiting for some of the more well known names to throw their input in.
 

Royta

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Like ravin said, this matchup is a bit in Ike's favour. Not by much though. At close range we really have to kite him away since we don't have that big an issue if he's away.
Stages are similar, i'd try and go to FD still or smashvile. BF is like Nin said considerd to be one of Ike's best stages so there isn't much you can do there. Sure it works nice for us too, but I think he gets more out of it.

Also at Ravin, you can play me if you wish. I once played against someone in Canada without any lag so it might work. My Ike got in 23th in a 100 man tourny;p so I atleast know what I'm doing (kinda). Problem is the hour-diffirence xD
 

Guilhe

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Milk, you’ve said all Ike aerials except for Nair and Bair have a easely punishable ending lag, that’s not true. If you check our frame data thread, you’ll see that Fair and Bair cancels at the exact same time (22 frames), Nair auto-cancels and Uair cancels at the frame 19. Ike’s aerials ending lag is very deceptive and I land a good share of my jabs at people who underrate my aerials ending lag. I’ve never been punished with a charge shot after I’ve performed a Fair, as if spaced correctly there is enough time to put up the shield if the Samus shielded or spot dodge’d the Fair. I’m not so sure in the case Samus perfect shields, as I’ve never been in a situation where she perfect shields and has the CS charged.

Also, I find Samus very easy to jab combo, due to how tall and heavy she is. Another very interesting finding I’ve made, is that jab -> Bair is a true combo on Samus (made on training mode with human controlled Samus).
 

Spike6sic6

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I might be the only one to think so, but I personnaly think that if the Samus plays very defensivly and abuses her long-ranged capacities, it will turn the match in her favor. The only thing Ike has against her is his incredible killing power. But then again, Samus has a great recovery. Don't know but I'd give Samus an advantage on this fight.
 

The Milk Monster

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Milk, you’ve said all Ike aerials except for Nair and Bair have a easely punishable ending lag, that’s not true. If you check our frame data thread, you’ll see that Fair and Bair cancels at the exact same time (22 frames), Nair auto-cancels and Uair cancels at the frame 19. Ike’s aerials ending lag is very deceptive and I land a good share of my jabs at people who underrate my aerials ending lag. I’ve never been punished with a charge shot after I’ve performed a Fair, as if spaced correctly there is enough time to put up the shield if the Samus shielded or spot dodge’d the Fair. I’m not so sure in the case Samus perfect shields, as I’ve never been in a situation where she perfect shields and has the CS charged.

Also, I find Samus very easy to jab combo, due to how tall and heavy she is. Another very interesting finding I’ve made, is that jab -> Bair is a true combo on Samus (made on training mode with human controlled Samus).
I didn't necessarily say it has easily punishable lag, they just do have lag, and are able to punish if you predict it right. Any smart Ike player shouldn't be punished with a Charge shot from a fair, if anything, it should be from a misplaced down air, or recovery. A power shield happy Samus has a lot options, but such is true about most characters.
 

Ravin

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Why i noted Jab lock grab = Ike wins vsing Samus

@ Royta - Give me a time. I live mtn. So if your Est, im two hours behind.

Dur dur... Your about.... 12 hours ahead of me.

We will figure something out... XD
 

The Milk Monster

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Why i noted Jab lock grab = Ike wins vsing Samus

@ Royta - Give me a time. I live mtn. So if your Est, im two hours behind.
Since we kinda' got Ike out of the way, who next?
I'd say someone people don't have a lot of experience against, maybe like..
Zero Suit?
Jiggz?
PT?
 

XZA143

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Looks like i'm late to the discussion. Not an Ike main, but Ravin and everyone else pretty much nailed it. Counter pick intelligently and the match becomes in your favor.

How about PT Milk? I'd like to see that discussion.
 

Ravin

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<.<

I wouldnt do PT just yet.

I mean, if i was to say it... 6.5 3.5 Vs Char, Samus.
6.5 3.5 Squt, PT

5.5 4.5 , Ivy, Samus. (Maybe higher, but i have problems with Ivys for some reason)
 

Ravin

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ITS XZ

We need to play

Nao.

Its been so long...

Edit - I lied. Gotta lay down, Throwing up again.
 
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