Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[I.T.P]

okay, you won, you out-texted me, I don't have the time to answer all that right now, and I don't intend to later probably. you might be a better Melee player than me, I never said I'm the best, I only said I'm good. and I still think I man, no matter how much you can try to say otherwise.

I also didn't say that Melee would've been more balanced with no L-Cancel as a fact, I said that it is my opinion that it would've been so, and the reason for that is that most of the higher characters on the tier list use L Canceling as an essential part of their more than the lower ones, I might be wrong about this, again, this is an opinion.

I can agree that no L-Canceling means less in game options, thats factually obvious, but I don't personally feel the impact to the game is as substantial and as bad as some people are making it out to be, I think the game is still very good and deep, and yes, it is competetive. how competetive? time will tell.

also, Like I said at another discussion, more options doesn't mean better, because if some options blatantly outperform others, they'll make the others obsolete, in this case, not L Canceling an aerial is 99% of the time completely useless so having the option to L Cancel or not to L Cancel, is equivalent to having all moves L-Canceled all the time, since they apparently didn't want that, the resulting game is a mix, some moves have reduced lag, and some have about the same lag they had with no L Cancel. since this is the fact, it led me to believe that those moves were meant to be laggy, and this is their true form.


I also don't agree that learning a game at a competetive Level should take hundreds of hours, learning the technical side of the game should take as little time as possible, and learning the timing,strategies,moves etc' is what should take a long time, or have many options to develop into, and what makes a great player is that he is able to build a good strategy and predict his opponent and space and etc' all of which are universal things, tech skill should be the last thing to learn, and shouldn't take "hundreds of hours"

this is all opinion offcourse, but I know that many are in that mindset.


anyway, I'm tired of responding to all that, and of this argument, let's end this in a friendly way saying I hope that future arguments with you will never detiriorate into any sort of personal issues, can we shake on that?

up until this topic, I had a pretty high opinion on you anyway, but by taking a small sarcastic sort of "I'm not bad like you think I am" comment and taking it into analysing a video and completely exaggerating with your remarks against it, made my opinion of you go down by a lot.

yes, our opinions differ, but no matter how sucky you thought I am, you have no reason and no motive to do that, if you were so amused by my video that you had to go and tell the world you went on discussing it with a fellow SWF member, you could've told me about it in a PM to begin with, and dissing my skill and playstyle in a widely read thread for no good reason is what I call "acting like a prick".

Erm, what? You say that L-canceling should only be reserved for certain characters or moves while Sakurai intentionally enabled almost every aerial and character to be able to L-cancel? >_> GW's bair and uair are the sole exception here, which further proves my point and makes yours seem quite, uhm, ridiculous to say the least.

Sakurai intentionally leaving wavedash in and making shine jump cancelable and having so little lag on fox's aerials anyway and that ridiculous grab and upsmash and uair was just asking for the fox aerial to waveshine to grab/upsmash to be born, for example. >_> And I don't even go to the sheik chaingrab on NTSC... Dedede, Falco and IC chaingrabs on brawl, lol. Sakurai forgot what set knockback throws do on melee.<_<

I saw that interview about wavedashing being Intentional, but I think that either he didn't forsee what it would lead to, or he was talking about wavelanding, because I really can't buy that as a fact, especially since it's a translated article, and the chances of a misinterpretation are pretty high.

I say that L Canceling was an experiment, and that sakurai ultimately didn't like the results and that is why he took it out, that and the fact that he wanted the game to be less demanding to shrink the skill gap between newbies and veterans.

I see chaingrabs as results of undertesting the grab aspect of the game, because you have to be very specific to find them and there are too many possibilities of throws turning into chaingrabs. they might be intentional and I'm wrong. that's just how I see it.


and re-reading my last post, I agree it was out of place, I've edited out the entire second part, you can take it out of your quotes as well.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

okay, you won, you out-texted me, I don't have the time to answer all that right now, and I don't intend to later probably.

He doesn't win because he "out-texted" you, he wins because he's right.

It's obvious that your opinions aren't as informed, so it's good that you're going to stop trying to make sweeping claims about gameplay mechanics. It's like you're trying to defend nothing with something.

 

[Eggm]

I.T.P does not know what he's talking about.

I found this out awhile ago.

 

[Aesir]

I realized this from his first post, you guys are slow.

 

[Yuna]

okay, you won, you out-texted me, I don't have the time to answer all that right now, and I don't intend to later probably. you might be a better Melee player than me, I never said I'm the best, I only said I'm good. and I still think I man, no matter how much you can try to say otherwise.

1) I win because I'm right and you're wrong. It seems consensus is with me. I have 6 people in the past two pages alone agreeing with me. How many do you have?
2) You're not the world's worst player. But if I'm to judge solely from that video you were so proud of, I'd say you're mediocre, at best.

I also didn't say that Melee would've been more balanced with no L-Cancel as a fact, I said that it is my opinion that it would've been so, and the reason for that is that most of the higher characters on the tier list use L Canceling as an essential part of their more than the lower ones, I might be wrong about this, again, this is an opinion.

I never said you said it as a fact that Melee is more balanced without L-cancel. While it's your opinion, you're wrong and I gave you ample evidence on why. You chose to ignore it all because, gasp, you can't possibly be wrong, even if your opinions are based on next to no facts at all.

Whether Melee is more balanced or not without L-canceling is also not a matter of opinion. It's written in stone hard facts. There are ways to test it scientifically and they all say "No".

I don't know how you or the people you play against play Low Tiers, but L-canceling is essential as any character. Slower and laggier (and in Melee, these were all low tiers except for Ganondorf) characters need L-canceling more than the faster (and generally higher tiered) characters since they're really unsafe without it. If they do any aerial, they're leaving themselves open for a loooong time. I don't understand why you keep ignoring this very important fact and referring to things like "Edgehopped aerials! And my opinions!" as proof.

I can agree that no L-Canceling means less in game options, thats factually obvious, but I don't personally feel the impact to the game is as substantial and as bad as some people are making it out to be, I think the game is still very good and deep, and yes, it is competetive. how competetive? time will tell.

Competitive =/= Competitively viable

The game, played on a high level from the currently known metagame (and let's face it, we won't be discovering much more because of how it's programmed, there are no hidden techniques and easter eggs, unless they're glitches) will be extremely boring.

A game of camping where you don't have much of a guessing game because there's no High/Mid/Low-system. In the past, this was defeated through shield-pressure, but we don't even have that anymore.

Because of the lack of options, even when you manage to hit someone (you won't be comboing them much, especially not into KO-moves), the games will go on and on and on and you will keep having to do unsafe **** and hope it hits or wait for the opponent to get 300% and kill them then.

also, Like I said at another discussion, more options doesn't mean better, because if some options blatantly outperform others, they'll make the others obsolete, in this case, not L Canceling an aerial is 99% of the time completely useless so having the option to L Cancel or not to L Cancel, is equivalent to having all moves L-Canceled all the time, since they apparently didn't want that, the resulting game is a mix, some moves have reduced lag, and some have about the same lag they had with no L Cancel. since this is the fact, it led me to believe that those moves were meant to be laggy, and this is their true form.

They are options. They are optional. You can choose whether or not to use them. Yes, they outperformed the others. Why? Because they're just plain better. Remove them without giving us of equal strength in return = Making the game worse (dependant, but in this case, yes).

I also don't agree that learning a game at a competetive Level should take hundreds of hours, learning the technical side of the game should take as little time as possible, and learning the timing,strategies,moves etc' is what should take a long time, or have many options to develop into, and what makes a great player is that he is able to build a good strategy and predict his opponent and space and etc' all of which are universal things, tech skill should be the last thing to learn, and shouldn't take "hundreds of hours"

1) Timing = Technical aspect
2) Strategies and moves = Takes hundreds of hours to learn

If they were too lazy to learn the technical side of SSBM (which, when compared to other fighting games, isn't really that high for most characters), they'll most proably also be too lazy to invest hundreds of hours into Brawl and learning how to play against all of the roster's characters.

Sure, they might give it enough time to decent at it. But they will stop at an arbitrary point out of laziness. Dedication means everything when you want to become good at a game. Even someone with talent won't be making it far if they don't bother learning and reading up on different strats because there'll come that day when they're facing someone playing a character in a way they're unfamiliar with and they'll get crushed.

this is all opinion offcourse, but I know that many are in that mindset.

And surprise, surprise, you're wrong (yet again).

anyway, I'm tired of responding to all that, and of this argument, let's end this in a friendly way saying I hope that future arguments with you will never detiriorate into any sort of personal issues, can we shake on that?

Sure. I'm still gonna point out whenever you're wrong (you made it personal by claiming you're good and posting that vid. I simply pointed out why that video hardly proves you're a good player. That's subjectively analyzing your video, it was not a slight on your character).

up until this topic, I had a pretty high opinion on you anyway, but by taking a small sarcastic sort of "I'm not bad like you think I am" comment and taking it into analysing a video and completely exaggerating with your remarks against it, made my opinion of you go down by a lot.

I had a bad impression of you from your past posts which I thought were often misinformed. Your linking to that video with that cocky attitude and faulty logic ("I didn't get crushed by this 'pro' Japanese player") amused me in such a way I had to reply to it with a crushing response to take you off your high horses.

If you're good, prove it by beating good players or linking us to videos where you're actually playing well. While you didn't suck in those videos, you were hardly impressive.

yes, our opinions differ, but no matter how sucky you thought I am, you have no reason and no motive to do that, if you were so amused by my video that you had to go and tell the world you went on discussing it with a fellow SWF member, you could've told me about it in a PM to begin with, and dissing my skill and playstyle in a widely read thread for no good reason is what I call "acting like a prick".

I have no problems with people who aren't "Ken-level". After all, it's not the sum of what you are. Your character and how good a person you are is not dependant on how good you are at Smash, fighting games, videogames or whatever.

It was your attitude when you posted that link that miffed me and prompted me to reply. It was your santimoneousness, "holier-than-thou"-attitude and cockiness (among other things). You acted like a prick in the first place by posting it and acting like it proves you're a great player.

I saw that interview about wavedashing being Intentional, but I think that either he didn't forsee what it would lead to, or he was talking about wavelanding, because I really can't buy that as a fact, especially since it's a translated article, and the chances of a misinterpretation are pretty high.

Wow, we took something further than Sakurai thought we would. How horrible. You know, you must not have played many fighting games competitively because in 99% of all games, the players take the game to heights even the most vetted publishers didn't expect them to!

We're so good at it, oftentimes, later revisions of the game have to tone-down moves and strategies we've learned to abuse and to re-balance the game.

And you really think he didn't think of wavedashing if he only created wavelanding? "Oh gee, no one will ever think of using this right after jumping!".

I say that L Canceling was an experiment, and that sakurai ultimately didn't like the results and that is why he took it out, that and the fact that he wanted the game to be less demanding to shrink the skill gap between newbies and veterans.

What he wanted and what he thinks and why he did the things he did matters little in the end results. If the finished product became better with/without it, yay. If it became worse, naaay.

What is this constant whining about Melee being too hard on new players to get into the competitive scene? Why is Smash so special? All fighting game scenes require you to invest time to become good. You can't just sit down in training mode for 5 hours and expect to stand a chance at your next tournament!

Heck, normal fighting games require you to simply out-memorize the opponent when it comes to frame data. "If they do this followed by this, is it safe for me to do this? Will it give them a tick-throw? Will it allow them to follow up with anything to techcrouch me? Will it be unsafe for them to even continue? Can I throw out a throw?", etc., etc., etc.

At least Smash is much more concentrated on mindgames than, say, Tekken where there is guessing-games but it's also a lot about shield-pressure and simply out-memorizing your oppponent on frame data.

Melee was already really easy for people to pick up and become pretty good at. And why must everything be so easy for people to play competitively? Especially when in doing so, you'll make gameplay suffer?

I see chaingrabs as results of undertesting the grab aspect of the game, because you have to be very specific to find them and there are too many possibilities of throws turning into chaingrabs. they might be intentional and I'm wrong. that's just how I see it.

Chaingrabs were in a way intentional. Either they didn't care or they wanted us to be able to combo from grabs by giving them low knockback, low lag and a lot of hitstun. They might not have planned on us being able to do Sheik's chaingrab on herself and others, but they most probably saw the possibility of something like it and simply left it in because their testers sucked (who the hell would allow things like DDD's chaingrab to slip by or Marth still being God Tier while the rest of the Tops, Highs and parts of Mid were nerfed into infinity, save a select few).

and re-reading my last post, I agree it was out of place, I've edited out the entire second part, you can take it out of your quotes as well.

Why? To save you the embarassment of people reading it? You were wrong, you nevertheless argued your point without any kind of evidence despite us providing ample evidence on the contrary and now you have to live with it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Yuna, I'm glad to see you're still around and still as... passionate as ever. I'm not going to lie: I didn't read any of your or I.T.P.'s posts (too long, and as far as I'm concerned, multi-quotes are spawned directly from the Dark Prince himself), but the one thing I have to point out is that consensus is a terrible thing to cite as far as logic is concerned. After all, the consensus was that G.W.B. was a good enough president to deserve another term, and we all know how that turned out.

I believe Stephen Colbert coined the phrase 'Wikiality' (meaning that truth is decided simply by the number of people that believe it; if everyone agrees that the Hoover Dam was built in 1922, then that makes it fact), but I find it staggeringly appropriate on these boards (well, on the internet in general, I supposed) because most of the views on Brawl v. Melee, competitiveness, and almost every other debate in Brawl Gen. Disc. seems to dictated simply by the number of people on each side; the number of people actually giving logical or factual debate is small, but the outcome is very dependent on how many people agree with each side.

Just something I've been noticing.

 

[Shibby]

I've been saying this for a while in the other related topics. The competitive scene was the brain child of the fans, not Sakurai. He essentially meant it to be another party game; we the people took it to a different level. Personally, I think both ways of playing are perfectly fine. I love a 3-stock, no items battle on Final Destination just as much as I love a battle with items flying all over the place. That was the vision, guys. It was MEANT to be random, goofy, and completely nuts. There's nothing wrong with mastering a character and winning tournaments, but don't hold it against the guy next to you if Snorlax wins a match for him.

100% agree

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, I'm glad to see you're still around and still as... passionate as ever. I'm not going to lie: I didn't read any of your or I.T.P.'s posts (too long, and as far as I'm concerned, multi-quotes are spawned directly from the Dark Prince himself), but the one thing I have to point out is that consensus is a terrible thing to cite as far as logic is concerned. After all, the consensus was that G.W.B. was a good enough president to deserve another term, and we all know how that turned out.

I have facts, consensus from both Casual players, Competitive players and even Pro players (when they feel up to actually posting) most of the time, anecdotal evidence, in-game examples/videos to illustrate my points and more most of the time. Consensus was just one of them.

I.T.P. also claimed that whether or not Melee is more balanced without L-canceling is a matter of opinion or at least that he just thinks it is despite having no evidence to support his claims. I pointed out everyone else thinks he's wrong.

Just something I've been noticing.

Did you learn anything from our passionate discussions in the past? That's all that's important here. I haven't seen you post anything significant in a while but I haven't been hanging around Smashboards much lately either, so I can't tell.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, I think I've learned stuff; I try to stay away from anecdotal evidence now and post more fact-based logic (instead of simply philosophy; this is the internet, and I've finally learned that the internet doesn't really like philosophy much). I think I'm finally feeling your pain when you get frustrated if people don't listen to fact/logic. It doesn't happen too often, but there are some subjects where some people just won't listen to fact. Oh well... that's life, I suppose.

 

[Yuna]

Well, I think I've learned stuff; I try to stay away from anecdotal evidence now and post more fact-based logic (instead of simply philosophy; this is the internet, and I've finally learned that the internet doesn't really like philosophy much). I think I'm finally feeling your pain when you get frustrated if people don't listen to fact/logic. It doesn't happen too often, but there are some subjects where some people just won't listen to fact. Oh well... that's life, I suppose.

Then my tough love approach to you succeded (I'd like to think).

At least I could tell you were willing to learn from your mistakes. Some people are just beyond help.

 

[Reyairia]

Honestly, that's your fault.

Apparently, you didn't grasp the proper concept of playing intelligently, and you blatantly ran into everyone one of her obvious attacks. If she's being campy or C-stick happy, then play at her level.

Don't hate Melee because you were a horrible player. Even if you practice the technical aspects, lack of experience will keep you at the same level.

Above all else, not johns.

Funny, considering that once I used Sheik or Marth I was able to beat her just fine, and I could beat the events and Classic and Adventure modes better than she was able to. You don't know anything about my play style to deduce that I'm a horrible player, or horrible compared to her.
I never said I hated Melee, I just think of it as an unfinished and flawed game.

 

[Yuna]

Funny, considering that once I used Sheik or Marth I was able to beat her just fine, and I could defeat the events and Classing and Adventure mode better than she did.
I never said I hated Melee, I just think of it as an unfinished and flawed game.

No game is perfect.

Also, gasp, you were able to beat her character using a character with a good matchup against her character/the same character as her? Wow! That's never happened before in the history of videogames!

 

[Jack Kieser]

Then my tough love approach to you succeded (I'd like to think).

At least I could tell you were willing to learn from your mistakes. Some people are just beyond help.

Man, that's what I don't get. I'm always willing to learn; learning is the best part of living, in my opinion. Why anyone would want to be so stubborn and so resistant to change at all times as some of the people I've met (online and in real life) is beyond me.

And tough love FTW. I'm almost worried that, if I ever have a kid, I'm going to stand back and watch him burn himself on a stove or something just so he'll have the experience behind the knowledge.

Pseudo-edit: So, I just though of this while writing that last sentence. You know why so many people might be... lacking when it comes to the current debates? Maybe because a lot of people (on both sides) have started taking certain people's word for things. Let me explain.

In relation to what I said above, I've never touched a hot stove, and thus I've never been burned by one. I take my parents suggestions to me way back in the day in good faith that they aren't lying to me, but the fact remains that I don't really know because I've never experienced it myself. That relates, I think, a lot to the debates here on SWF because it seems very possible that many people simply parrot veteran or experienced poster's view simply because they are taking their words on good faith that they know what they are talking about. For instance, item tournaments really took the dive while the tournament Smash community was growing, and as you would expect a great number of the newer members of the community may know the logical reasons for disabling items, but may have never felt why they should be disabled (like having to lose a tournament due to a random spawn or something). That experience is critical to debate, but so many people just take what we (and others) say on the good faith that we know what we're talking about, which I can see being a bad thing. Naturally, non-tournament Smashers wouldn't have this experience either, which only compounds the problem.

Man, I'm glad I'm reading SWF today; it's been giving me all sorts of idea-inspiration.

 

[Aesir]

I say that L Canceling was an experiment, and that sakurai ultimately didn't like the results and that is why he took it out, that and the fact that he wanted the game to be less demanding to shrink the skill gap between newbies and veterans.

He wouldn't have nerfed l-canceling in melee if he didn't like it.

Truth, it was in n64 >_>

 

[Yuna]

But the vast majority of the stubborn users who fail to see reason or don't want to change as those taking their own words (or fellow new users/casual players' words) for it.

"Items should be on because...!" despite us telling them why they shouldn't. However, no one should ever just go "Oh, Mew2King said something so it must be true!" even if someone proves M2K wrong.

 

[Jack Kieser]

But the vast majority of the stubborn users who fail to see reason or don't want to change as those taking their own words (or fellow new users/casual players' words) for it.

"Items should be on because...!" despite us telling them why they shouldn't. However, no one should ever just go "Oh, Mew2King said something so it must be true!" even if someone proves M2K wrong.

Well, that's just stubbornness. There's not much you can do about stubbornness without access to a cattle prod.

 

[Oskurito]

1) I win because I'm right and you're wrong. It seems consensus is with me. I have 6 people in the past two pages alone agreeing with me. How many do you have?

And now 7

I also don't agree that learning a game at a competetive Level should take hundreds of hours [...]

See? that's why you are not competitive. A truly competitive gamer will do whatever it takes to succeed in a competitive scene no matter how hard the things are. He will try to learn everything that it takes to improve his technical hability and his knowledge of strategies when fighting (mindgames), and that my friend, takes a lot of time (probably millions of hours playing). You know... the techniques like L-canceling, wavedashing and such, all of them are in the game to make it better and to give the players much more options when fighting (making the game even more fun) regardless of how hard they are, all of us (the competitive community) had mastered them, of course, maybe not all of them, but the most reliable and significant ones that will let us achieve our main target > Winning.

Look, this is my mindset when playing video games: "I must do whatever it takes to win, no matter how hard or "gay" it is BUT ALWAYS aplying the safest options"

Don't get hit

 

[Scar]

"I also don't agree that learning a game at a competetive Level should take hundreds of hours [...]"

If he's referring solely to technical skill, then I can buy that argument. If there were a wavedash button that wouldn't make Melee too much less competitive. You're just arguing for a game that neither rewards technical skill nor punishes clumsiness and stupidfingers.

Games that are worth playing competitively test your skills. Melee tests technical skill, and that's as far as some players go! The vast majority of players don't even know how smart you have to be to compete at the top level even if your tech skill is nearly perfect.

But it is fact that it is almost impossible to reach that level without becoming a technically sound player first.

I love the technical aspect because you should learn how to L-cancel all of your aerials in Melee, and if you can't then you deserve punishment, or you deserve to not continue your combo or whatever. Things are fair that way, the game rewards experience and dedication, which I think are two things that should be rewarded.

 

[thumbswayup]

Note that SilentWolf is more technical than Mew2king, but he is not the overall better player (i'm talking about when they both use fox).

 

[Jack Kieser]

@Scar: From reading the posts on SWF, I think some of the people arguing against the level of tech skill necessary in Melee feel the way they do because of the hypothetical of "Well, what if my mindgames are great, but my tech skill isn't perfect?" In theory, if a game relies too heavily on tech skill (as many people, apparently, feel Melee did), then people who have superior mental skills get shafted simply because they aren't perfect with the techs. Personally, I can see things from both sides (as a person who was never able to wavedash consistently, but also was able to beat a few of the higher tech skilled players I played against), so I can see how Brawl appeals to the people who felt shafted by the amount of tech skill needed to really do well in Melee, and I can see how Brawl doesn't have enough emphasis on tech skill and thus is the other extreme.

 

[Yuna]

"I also don't agree that learning a game at a competetive Level should take hundreds of hours [...]"

If he's referring solely to technical skill, then I can buy that argument. If there were a wavedash button that wouldn't make Melee too much less competitive. You're just arguing for a game that neither rewards technical skill nor punishes clumsiness and stupidfingers.

Maybe he misunderstood my post, but I did specifically say that players who were too lazy to learn Melee won't put down hundreds of hours to learn Brawl, to which he replied with "I also don't agree...".

Games that are worth playing competitively test your skills. Melee tests technical skill, and that's as far as some players go! The vast majority of players don't even know how smart you have to be to compete at the top level even if your tech skill is nearly perfect.

But it is fact that it is almost impossible to reach that level without becoming a technically sound player first.

The technical level the average needs to reach to be good is actually quite low. It's not even that high if you compare it relatively with other games where tons of stuff requires frame-perfect inputs.

People have a misconception of that the technical level of Melee is quite high when it's just average. It's not even really that hard to get to the level of the average Competitive player (middle of the road).

Also, Melee measures mindgames, just like any other fighting game, not tech skill. You need tech skill to be good but once you have said tech skill, it all comes down to mindgames.

 

[Gluttony]

"I also don't agree that learning a game at a competetive Level should take hundreds of hours [...]"

If he's referring solely to technical skill, then I can buy that argument. If there were a wavedash button that wouldn't make Melee too much less competitive. You're just arguing for a game that neither rewards technical skill nor punishes clumsiness and stupidfingers.

Games that are worth playing competitively test your skills. Melee tests technical skill, and that's as far as some players go! The vast majority of players don't even know how smart you have to be to compete at the top level even if your tech skill is nearly perfect.

But it is fact that it is almost impossible to reach that level without becoming a technically sound player first.

I love the technical aspect because you should learn how to L-cancel all of your aerials in Melee, and if you can't then you deserve punishment, or you deserve to not continue your combo or whatever. Things are fair that way, the game rewards experience and dedication, which I think are two things that should be rewarded.

I agree with this post. I like competitive Brawl as well as competitive Melee but this is true. The fact that a game requires 100's of hours of practice is another thing that makes it fun competitively. If you can become competitive in a game within a week then it can't be a very deep game. People used to play Melee for money but there was a large group of people who didn't. These people needn't worry because they wouldn't be playing people of that level. The truth is if you're going to be doing anything competitive you're going to need to spend large ammounts of time breaking the game down, mastering every single piece, and learning as much as there is to know about the game.

This isn't easy nor is it a quick process. Even Brawl takes a long time to master the spacing, all the defense aspects, how to force your opponent to approach, and how to win without every coming at your opponent but this didn't come close to how often you had to practice with Melee. This didn't make Melee worse than Brawl. Not even close, in my opinion, it's one of the things that made Melee great.

 

[GenoBlast]

@ Yuna, Mindgames are a huge role in melee but I don't believe it comes down to mindgames alone. Just having a good knowledge of the game is a huge thing. Knowing the right attack to do after another during combos is crucial. Combos that don't exist in brawl.......
Falcon is one of the characters I use and Darkrain does too (obviously). I can do pretty much everything he can technically but he does it better than me because his knowledge of the game is much better. Ill watch a video of him and ill be expecting him to do a uair but he uses a nair instead and it leads to a knee combo. My Uair may only lead into a Bair or something, so there are many variations of combo chains that can be done by each of our starting attacks, Darkrains is just more lethal.

So what I'm trying to say is, Melee does take a lot of technical skill and mindgames just like most games do. But because of thing like DI , %'s and other factors, the game also requires quick thinking and knowledge of what to do at that exact point in time. It is not entirely a game of memorizing preset combos like a lot of traditional fighters. After a throw, if your opponent DIs a certain way you can punish them, of if they DI another way you may have to do something completely different, or are unable to punish them at all. In most traditional fighting games is just about getting 1 crucial hit in, then you can be infiniteted to death, this is true in melee but is very restricted due to individual character physics, DI and the opportunity's fading after and above certain %'s. Jiggs can upthrow rest fox at 0% but not at 100%. If this were SF it would work against every character at any amount of health. Melee's "heat of the moment" fighting style I find to be much more interesting.

 

[Yuna]

@ Yuna, Mindgames are a huge role in melee but I don't believe it comes down to mindgames alone. Just having a good knowledge of the game is a huge thing. Knowing the right attack to do after another during combos is crucial. Combos that don't exist in brawl.......
Falcon is one of the characters I use and Darkrain does too (obviously). I can do pretty much everything he can technically but he does it better than me because his knowledge of the game is much better. Ill watch a video of him and ill be expecting him to do a uair but he uses a nair instead and it leads to a knee combo. My Uair may only lead into a Bair or something, so there are many variations of combo chains that can be done by each of our starting attacks, Darkrains is just more lethal.

Knowing the game itself is important in any fighting game. Melee does not place a greater emphasis on that than any of the other popular competitive fighters.

Knowing the game itself is also a part of mindgames. Knowing what the opponent is capable of and predicting what he'll try to do and countering it = Mindgames.

Yeah, he has more mindgames than you. He predicts how the opponent is going to try to get away from the combo and punishes accordingly. That and/or he just has more knowledge of the game than you. This still doesn't mean that it all comes down to mindgames.

You're talking about yourself and DarkRain. You're, by your own admission, a worse player than him. Of course he'll have better knowledge than you.

When you put two players together and they're around the same level, the one with the superior mindgames will win. Technique won't matter much if one side can just outsmart the other repeatedly. I've been able to beat people far superior to be technically and even in general by simply predicting them correctly in some games.

 

[RDK]

Knowing the game itself is important in any fighting game. Melee does not place a greater emphasis on that than any of the other popular competitive fighters.

Knowing the game itself is also a part of mindgames. Knowing what the opponent is capable of and predicting what he'll try to do and countering it = Mindgames.

Yeah, he has more mindgames than you. He predicts how the opponent is going to try to get away from the combo and punishes accordingly. That and/or he just has more knowledge of the game than you. This still doesn't mean that it all comes down to mindgames.

You're talking about yourself and DarkRain. You're, by your own admission, a worse player than him. Of course he'll have better knowledge than you.

When you put two players together and they're around the same level, the one with the superior mindgames will win. Technique won't matter much if one side can just outsmart the other repeatedly. I've been able to beat people far superior to be technically and even in general by simply predicting them correctly in some games.

This is basically what it boils down to, and any pro or decent competitive player who knows what they're talking about will tell you the same.

It's all about getting to know your opponent and molding your playstyle around his. This is exactly why you can't get good off of just watching videos and playing against computers. There's a certain human touch that non-competitive practice can't substitute.

So basically mindgames and becoming familiar with yours and your opponent's characters >>>> being highly technical, although technicality is still important.

 

[GenoBlast]

@Yuna again, I understand entirely what your saying but I think your missing the point that I'm getting at. I Don't think the character specific physics and changes in percents could be classified as mindgames as they are built into the game. All i'm really saying is, that smash is much more character specific than other traditional fighting games, if you can do a combo on someone, you can do it on anyone in SF. I just used the Darkrain example to demonstrate how different moves lead to different attacks.

It's all about getting to know your opponent and molding your playstyle around his. This is exactly why you can't get good off of just watching videos and playing against computers. There's a certain human touch that non-competitive practice can't substitute.

Exactly, and because smash is so variable there are so many different types of play styles to get used too which is just another reason why Melee has survived over the last 8 years because it is so variable. Learning Samus is COMPLETELY different than learning C falcon. Its this kind of depth that each character has that keeps the game entertaining. SF on the other hand, while there are differences, characters are generally the same.

 

[reborn394]

The game has a competitive atmosphere, so it's obviously competitive. However, since all characters play equally in terms of overall skill, then he does back up his points.

 

[chaddd]

I guess he failed me. =/ lol

Also, in my experiences against other people, I whoop ***. Who cares about what random **** person you beat. I beat Chaddd in a MM once, but you know what? NO ONE CARES! When you also throw in friendly sandbagging in to the mix the results of your actions means even less.

Didn't I double four stock you on the double or nothing?

It just goes to show you. What some people call winning, others would call getting hustled.

 

[NES n00b]

Didn't I double four stock you on the double or nothing?

It just goes to show you. What some people call winning, others would call getting hustled.

HAHAHAHAHA OMG, you actually went to the Brawl section. Like I said NO ONE CARES if I did win one measely MM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No one wants to hear about you go "even" with Mashashi or Hiko or whatever.

lol, though of defending yourself. No johns for me I lost the double or nothing. Though, I think the lesson should be learned by some people of no johns and bragging of beating well known people in friendlies or just taking a game off of a set. *cough*

 

[Corigames]

I'm so proud of you internet. You successfully flamed the hell out of somebody, without me. I didn't think it was possible, but...

Ohhh, I never thought this day would come. Come here, let me burn... hug you.

 

[Lumpy..]

I'm so proud of you internet. You successfully flamed the hell out of somebody, without me. I didn't think it was possible, but...

Ohhh, I never thought this day would come. Come here, let me burn... hug you.

haha ura nerd

i have nothing against you, but i'm bored...
so... you wanna argue about something?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Shut Up Lumpy, No One Likes You And You Suck At Smash Because You Lost To A Kirby!!!!

Flame Flame Flame Flame Flame Flame

Spoiler

Stop Posting in all of my subscribed threads -_-

 

[Corigames]

Debate Item 1

haha ura nerd

i have nothing against you, but i'm bored...
so... you wanna argue about something?

The excessive number of new people is directly proportional to the nuisance level that the board has reached and is currently rising above. Their lack of ability, want to become better, and inexperience while still trying to come off as high in skill are frustrating at least. If I had the choice, I would make it so that there is a very very FAR back-room where people of under 100 and 2008 join dates posts must go. After they make 100 posts and a mod allows them, they can join normal discussion. They need to brood in a pit of their peers and understand just how n00bish they are. High schools don't share rooms with elementary and neither should we.


Counter point...

 

[Radical Dreamer]

I also don't agree that learning a game at a competetive Level should take hundreds of hours

That's because you're a scrub. QQ more.

 

[thumbswayup]

The excessive number of new people is directly proportional to the nuisance level that the board has reached and is currently rising above. Their lack of ability, want to become better, and inexperience while still trying to come off as high in skill are frustrating at least. If I had the choice, I would make it so that there is a very very FAR back-room where people of under 100 and 2008 join dates posts must go. After they make 100 posts and a mod allows them, they can join normal discussion. They need to brood in a pit of their peers and understand just how n00bish they are. High schools don't share rooms with elementary and neither should we.


Counter point...

I agree with this.

 

[Vall3y]

That's because you're a scrub. QQ more.

you sir are a newbie
the current trend of competitive fighting games is being playable at low technical levels and lets say it wasnt true, what does anything ITP said have anything to do with him being a scrub go read sirlin.net/ptw

 

[Vice Lord]

sirlin.net's playing to win is very interesting and useful IMO, i think any semi competitive/competitive player could benefit from reading it.

Also saying it's common for competitive games to be playable at lower levels has nothing to do with radical dreamer being a noob or not.

According to sirlin.net doing anything that is not deemed abusive (Like an infinite, or Akuma in street fighter) is the best way to play, use whatever is at your disposal to get an edge against your opponent. It's understandable to call ITP a newb, because he show a general newb trait, laziness. Wanting to play competitive without having to work for it.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

you sir are a newbie
the current trend of competitive fighting games is being playable at low technical levels and lets say it wasnt true, what does anything ITP said have anything to do with him being a scrub go read sirlin.net/ptw

But Melee was playable at low technical levels, if you wanted! The good thing was that you could be technical if you wanted, or you could have low techskill if you wanted and do just fine! In Brawl, you can't be technical, which means we have a gameplay option less, and I don't like it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

But Melee was playable at low technical levels, if you wanted! The good thing was that you could be technical if you wanted, or you could have low techskill if you wanted and do just fine! In Brawl, you can't be technical, which means we have a gameplay option less, and I don't like it.

Now, I think its important that we ask if we're talking about just 'playable' or do we mean 'playable at a tournament level'? Because Melee could be played at a base level, sure, but not in any sense other than a couple of people ******* around. If you wanted to do well, you HAD to play with technical skill (of some sort, I'm not saying you HAD to play with godly tech skill); I did start playing well against tournament players until I started playing as technically as I could, even though I could (most times) out predict them.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Now, I think its important that we ask if we're talking about just 'playable' or do we mean 'playable at a tournament level'? Because Melee could be played at a base level, sure, but not in any sense other than a couple of people ******* around. If you wanted to do well, you HAD to play with technical skill (of some sort, I'm not saying you HAD to play with godly tech skill); I did start playing well against tournament players until I started playing as technically as I could, even though I could (most times) out predict them.

Drephen has amazing technical skill, right? There are whole characters where the only tech skills even possible are universal ones like pivoting! Peach, Jiggs, Marth, Sheik, just to name a few.