Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[Azentium]

Melee did an excellent job of harvesting both a casual group of fans as well as competitive ones, I don't see why he thinks Melee failed in that regard. Long before I was ever interested in playing at a more advanced level, my friends and I were casual button-mashing players and we never felt like it was too complex. Also, I don't understand is why Sakurai believes competitive play and casual play can't coexist. Honestly, I thought the thing that gave Super Smash Bros. the upper hand, compared to games like Soul Caliber and Street Fighter, is it's ability to be picked up by anyone while at the same time only capable of being mastered by few. If Sakurai really wants to appease the casual crowd why can't he just leave an option for things like L-canceling, wavedashing, tripping, etc. to be flipped on and off similar to items? You would think a man like Sakurai, who's philosophy it is to give as many options as possible to the end user, would've included something like this in get-go.

One sentence summation: Why not give the player the option to play the way they want to?

Just my two cents.

 

[Jack Kieser]

@Azentium: The only logical reason I can think of for why Sakurai would feel as though Melee failed is the very title of this thread. Allow me to elaborate.

We know that Melee was competitive, although it wasn't built to be. We also know that Sak disapproved (in some way) of how we interpreted Melee because of the changes he implemented in Brawl. If we include the way the original Smash was developed, we can make a supposition. Perhaps, and I can't stress the 'perhaps' enough, when HAL was developing SSB64, they looked around at the fighting game market and saw games like Guilty Gear, Street Fighter, and Sould Caliber and set out to make something that wasn't like any of those. Perhaps they were trying to design it so that it had elements of other fighting games without emulating their styles at all (i.e., emphasis on tech skills like combos, memorizing long strings of commands, etc.).

Perhaps SSB64 worked out just fine, so when Sak created Melee, he just wanted to expand upon his original idea, but when he did, he opened up the door that we used to turn Smash into (basically) a generic fighter variant, or in other words, more like every other fighting game. So, perhaps he decided to close that door once and for all with Brawl.

Now, I feel I have to state here, because I'm sure people are going to misconstrue this, that I'm not trying to make a statement on right way v. wrong way or anything. I'm just saying that the progression of events I supposed above could logically explain why we aren't just given the same choices we were given in Melee with regards to choosing how to play.

 

[Azentium]

@Jack Kieser:

I don't see how Melee became "a generic fighter variant". I have yet to see the equivalent to techniques like wavedashing and edgehogging/guarding in games like Virtua Fighter, Soul Caliber, etc. The only game which can really be considered similar to Smash Bros is Power Stone (Dreamcast), and even those two are hardly comparable.

 

[Gluttony]

@Jack Kieser:

I don't see how Melee became "a generic fighter variant". I have yet to see the equivalent to techniques like wavedashing and edgehogging/guarding in games like Virtua Fighter, Soul Caliber, etc. The only game which can really be considered similar to Smash Bros in most regards is Power Stone (Dreamcast), and even those two are hardly comparable.

He's not saying that it's a bad thing but basicly what he means is a game with a high learning curve, combo heavy, and requires really quick thinking/fast reflexes. He wasen't insulting Melee but was stating that he personally believes that Sakurai wanted to bring Smash Brothers as far away from a traditional fighter as possible. Which is why offense is punished so heavily while defense is favored.

 

[Azentium]

He's not saying that it's a bad thing but basically what he means is a game with a high learning curve, combo heavy, and requires really quick thinking/fast reflexes. He wasn't insulting Melee but was stating that he personally believes that Sakurai wanted to bring Smash Brothers as far away from a traditional fighter as possible. Which is why offense is punished so heavily while defense is favored.

Okay, that's understandable then.

 

[Gluttony]

Okay, that's understandable then.

Glad to help but I could be wrong. That's what I interpreted his post as.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Gluttony, you are so awesome. Thanks for decoding my post for the masses. ^_^

 

[Gluttony]

Gluttony, you are so awesome. Thanks for decoding my post for the masses. ^_^

No problem Just trying to make things more understandable so there's a little less fighting going on.

 

[I.T.P]

Can someone please tell me why people make such a big deal out of everything?

just because Brawl has a different style than Melee, doesn't make it a lesser game IMO, I don't think people who prefer Melee are wrong, it's a matter of opinion, but blatantly denying every improvement or advantage brawl has over Melee is really going overboard.

Melee was too fast paced for new people to learn, it took either a very perceptive person and a good teacher, or months of practicing and playing before you could actually be good at the game. a lot of the elements the Melee Metagame encorparates are either far from obvious, or very hard to learn.

Powershielding and Short Hopping were way too hard, Wavedashing and L-Canceling are the farthest thing possible from common sense, and the game was crammed with glitches or lag cancels that you had to know about to be good.

on top of that, the amount of levels in the game that fit competetive play is very small, the difference between tiers in character potential and abilities was HUGE, bigger than most fighters by a large margin, and overall the game was way overplayed as it is.

not to say I don't like Melee, I love it, it's the first game I ever won money from playing it, I was made a staff member of gaming sites due to it, I participated in many tournaments, and hosted\organizes many tournaments, but because of my 6 years of playing the game, I can see it's flaws as well as it's strengths

Brawl may or may not be as deep as Melee is in terms of available options at any specific moment, I feel that Brawl is the "Fixed" version of Melee, the game is now understandable to bystanders, the techniques and abilities are now sensible, there are more neutral and more Counterpick viable stages, more characters by a lot, and the characters are now "Seemingly" Balanced, at least to a point where it is not yet decided who will be played and how much, the main Issue people are going on about is the gameplay.

so what about the gameplay? I know it's been rehashed, but the gameplay isn't bad, it's just different, combos,edge guards and edge hogs are all harder to pull off - a good thing in my opinion. Different and new character styles are there, and they make the game very interesting, controls are customizable, and more.


seriously, could someone please explain to me how any of the elements in brawl(besides tripping, which is stupid, but not game breaking) make it such a bad game?

and please no "no wavedashing\L Cancel = less options" arguments, you were supposed to use dashes, not consecutive wave lands, Aerials are supposed to have lag, if they're not supposed to have it, it's barely there.

 

[Gluttony]

Personally I like Brawl just as much as Melee. I've already stated my reasons as to why I enjoy Brawl so much so I won't get into that. I just wanted to point out there's others out there that have played Melee competitively but still enjoy competitive Brawl. You're not alone.

 

[I.T.P]

Personally I like Brawl just as much as Melee. I've already stated my reasons as to why I enjoy Brawl so much so I won't get into that. I just wanted to point out there's others out there that have played Melee competitively but still enjoy competitive Brawl. You're not alone.

heh, thanks , I appreciate it.

It just seems that this whole board went on an anti brawl spree, and are spreading lies and misfacts so ridiculously inaccurate, and are using them as fact.

take Luigi against Koopa, and try Nair -> Land -> Utilt X3 -> Uair X2 -> Bair and tell me that's not a long and viable combo.

Uairs hurt better when they're reversed though.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Can someone please tell me why people make such a big deal out of everything?

just because Brawl has a different style than Melee, doesn't make it a lesser game IMO, I don't think people who prefer Melee are wrong, it's a matter of opinion, but blatantly denying every improvement or advantage brawl has over Melee is really going overboard.

Melee was too fast paced for new people to learn, it took either a very perceptive person and a good teacher, or months of practicing and playing before you could actually be good at the game. a lot of the elements the Melee Metagame encorparates are either far from obvious, or very hard to learn.

Powershielding and Short Hopping were way too hard, Wavedashing and L-Canceling are the farthest thing possible from common sense, and the game was crammed with glitches or lag cancels that you had to know about to be good.

on top of that, the amount of levels in the game that fit competetive play is very small, the difference between tiers in character potential and abilities was HUGE, bigger than most fighters by a large margin, and overall the game was way overplayed as it is.

not to say I don't like Melee, I love it, it's the first game I ever won money from playing it, I was made a staff member of gaming sites due to it, I participated in many tournaments, and hosted\organizes many tournaments, but because of my 6 years of playing the game, I can see it's flaws as well as it's strengths

Brawl may or may not be as deep as Melee is in terms of available options at any specific moment, I feel that Brawl is the "Fixed" version of Melee, the game is now understandable to bystanders, the techniques and abilities are now sensible, there are more neutral and more Counterpick viable stages, more characters by a lot, and the characters are now "Seemingly" Balanced, at least to a point where it is not yet decided who will be played and how much, the main Issue people are going on about is the gameplay.

so what about the gameplay? I know it's been rehashed, but the gameplay isn't bad, it's just different, combos,edge guards and edge hogs are all harder to pull off - a good thing in my opinion. Different and new character styles are there, and they make the game very interesting, controls are customizable, and more.


seriously, could someone please explain to me how any of the elements in brawl(besides tripping, which is stupid, but not game breaking) make it such a bad game?

and please no "no wavedashing\L Cancel = less options" arguments, you were supposed to use dashes, not consecutive wave lands, Aerials are supposed to have lag, if they're not supposed to have it, it's barely there.

The problem a lot of people have with Brawl is the lack of reward for effort put into it. Almost everything is easier or done for you.

The pace of Melee was not to fast for new people to get into it. There were millions of smash players who had and still have never heard of wavedashing or L canceling or any AT and would never experience the truly fast pace of competitive play. Smash 64, Melee & Brawl have all made it easy for new comers to play the game.

Taking a long time to get good at the game is what a lot of the "anti-Brawl" players liked. A game being easy to get good at usually means it is shallow (good =/= learn). I mean, would it be a good thing to have a pitching machine, that always did the same pitch at the same speed, replace the pitcher in baseball so it would be easier for people to get good at it?

I will agree that powershielding was too hard in Melee. Short hopping may have been too hard, but as a player who loved the sense of accomplishment and reward that Melee had I loved the way it was.

I don't see why having things that are not obvious or "common sense" in a game is a bad thing. I mean is the way to start out as Zero Suit Samus obvious?

Brawl wins for stages, it has more netural ones, it has more crappy ones, it has good ones from the old game and good ones that are new.

If by overplayed you mean how it wore out gamecubes and controllers, then yes Melee was overplayed. Otherwise I will say that people played Melee as much as they did for a reason. I think the reason was because of how it rewarded your effort and had a vibrant competitive scene... I won't use the word fun because that is so subjective.

Yes Melee was unbalanced, Brawl could turn out just as bad as Melee though. I think both sides could admit that they would rather have a more balanced game A then a less balanced game A.


The "rehashed" gameplay is not what is upsetting people. People are upset because elements that once required skill to work on and improve in order to distinguish yourself from other players have been made ridiculously easy. People aren't upset that their recovery skills in melee wouldn't transfer over, it is that there is now nothing to work on. What you see as easier more accessible elements other people see lost potential.


And no, yes Wavedash & L cancel argument. Limiting a game down to what the developer expected does not make it better or make those actions invalid. "supposed to" and should have little meaning here. Doing things differently then how they are "supposed to" is not always a bad thing.
Wavedashing added a lot to melee, it doesn't matter that Nintendo did not intend it to be there. Capcom didn't intend for combos to be in Street Fighter 2. Having options the game maker didn't intend does not make them bad or invalid points for discussion.


I don't see why you seem to think that it is a good thing for everything to be so simple and exposed. You seem to think that it is a good thing for the game to be easy to get good at. When I say good here I mean good as at the level of people who spent tons of time perfecting wavedashing, shffls, dashdance, etc. True competitive players want it to be hard to be good. What would be the point of the Olympics if it were easy to get good at those competitions?

Yes, Brawl at a competitive level has become more accessible. Yes Melee pros are still going to own people who have never played smash prior to Brawl. Yes Brawl takes skill. Yes Brawl will be played competitively. Melee skill =/= Brawl skill.

The thing is that people aren't finding tons of depth and things to work and improve on... or well atleast in places that they want to.

 

[I.T.P]

Melee was overplayed because most other game in most other genres never take 7 years to get a sequel, it's time to move on to new things, we've played enough of Melee, great and epic as it is.

Lack of reward for effort? I think this is a matter of opinion as well, and I strongly disagree, while the game speed has been lowered, it doesn't mean that you don't have to time things, learning to time perfect recoveries, Edge guards, Spikes, Chain grabs and more still takes a lot of skill, and takes time to learn and discover, I think anyone that says brawl isn't developing and changing in every second is blind IMO.

it might take less time to get "Good" in brawl, but that doesn't mean you've reached a ceiling, we've barely even begun climbing, people are learning, adjusting and improving all the time, and a new player will not beat a veteran, if the veteran has more polished skills. saying that Defense is too strong or that noobish moves are too strong just shows you didn't practice enough(not implying you said it, but a lot of people do say it).

the reason I like the fact brawl is more accesible, is because it's caused my community to triple itself in no time, more and more people are interested in the game and in learning it at high level, people can actually understand what I mean when I explain DI,RAR and etc' to them, and people don't spend years learning one small in-game abuse that you're completely doomed if you're unaware of it.

Fighting games in general are moving towards the "Simplicity" notion, timing windows are enlarged, tech demanding things are removed\readjuste, and more. I think this is a good thing, cause it lets you concentrate on the important parts - playing better, smarter and punishing your opponent's mistakes. and not just showing off the fact you have inhuman tech skill, tech skill should stay as a demand for some characters, not all.

basing a metagame over in-game abuses that are hard to learn or understand completely kills off the ability to understand the game for a bystander, and also takes away the fun of learning it, since you need to concentrate on a specific skill, and not on learning the game and usefullness of each move and strategy.

wavedashing and L-Canceling not only broke the intended balance for the game, but also completely decimated the usefullness of some moves, while infinitely boosting the usefullness of others, now that every aerial keeps the intended amount of lag, and you have to learn to work around it, and you're forced to use a variety of moves or other anti diminishing strats, it makes playing properly much more of a mind skill than a hand skill, which is a good thing.

In melee, a falco player that knew how to SHL approach and how to shine jump dair, and knew nothing else, but could perfectly perform the above, would still be able to cope with players much smarter than him, only by abusing the same strategy over and over. diminishing returns kills that ability, and making most techniques much more obvious and\or easy to learn, takes the competetiveness of the game to the next level.

the more people can and want to compete - the game is more competetive. the easier and more accesible the controls are - more people would like them and want to compete. the more understandable the game becomes to bystanders - more people will want to try it, and will find it accesible.

all of this does not in anyway mean that the game has nothing in it to learn, or has no depth. because performing perfect DI, Edge hogging(which now means falling to the edge at the exact timing of the opponent's Up+B in most cases, much harder than Melee), Comboing(Less hitstun = harder to combo = combos are harder to discover and learn. hard = good isn't it?) and more, still takes a ton of skill, and the better the opponent, the more skill needed and the more you can improve by playing.

and like I mentioned before, Tech demanding stuff are still there, but on spcific characters. try to alternate grabs between ICs at a high percentage, I dare you. try to memorize the exact timing of the IC's chain for each of the 39 characters, I dare you.



but that's just it, the depths and things to work on are there, but in diffrent forms

 

[Lumpy..]

BALLS...

also...
the same 2 or 3 people are dominating this thread...
and i'm too lazy to actually read their 16 paragraphs of input on the topic...
so basically... i'm contributing NOTHING to this thread... you're welcome...

I AM A TROLL!!!!

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

ITP, I like that you believe in Brawl, but some parts of your posts just struck me as silly and uninformed.

Melee was overplayed because most other game in most other genres never take 7 years to get a sequel, it's time to move on to new things, we've played enough of Melee, great and epic as it is.

We have not played enough of Melee. The meta game is continuously expanding, evolving, and changing in Melee. There's still so much left to learn and do and find out, and you want to abandon it on the grounds of it being overplayed??

the reason I like the fact brawl is more accesible, is because it's caused my community to triple itself in no time, more and more people are interested in the game and in learning it at high level, people can actually understand what I mean when I explain DI,RAR and etc' to them, and people don't spend years learning one small in-game abuse that you're completely doomed if you're unaware of it.

I don't understand this part at all. DI was in Melee, it's not gotten easier to explain in any way. "RAR and etc." are minor techniques equivalent to say, wavelanding in Melee, which isn't hard to explain either! And I don't know of any in-game abuse that you spend years (!!!) learning and are completely doomed if you're unaware of it.

Fighting games in general are moving towards the "Simplicity" notion, timing windows are enlarged, tech demanding things are removed\readjuste, and more. I think this is a good thing, cause it lets you concentrate on the important parts - playing better, smarter and punishing your opponent's mistakes. and not just showing off the fact you have inhuman tech skill, tech skill should stay as a demand for some characters, not all.

You're over emphasizing the necessety of tech skill in Melee. You have the option to be technical in Melee, you are not forced to be. If you want to concentrate on the "important parts," why not pick a character that requires very little tech skill? In fact, you wouldn't even need to choose a bad character! Marth and Sheik are all the way up there and require so little tech skill! And Jiggs is just a tier below them and requires next to no tech skill! Even l canceling and wavedashing are hardly required!

I won't call this proof of any kind, but Mango beat Mew2King at pound. Mew2King is one of the most techskilled smashers in the world, using the most technical character in Melee. Mango has techskill, but he only uses it with other characters, because the only techskill Jiggs really needs is spacing and a good eye to judge distance.

basing a metagame over in-game abuses that are hard to learn or understand completely kills off the ability to understand the game for a bystander, and also takes away the fun of learning it, since you need to concentrate on a specific skill, and not on learning the game and usefullness of each move and strategy.

Alright. Melee takes some degree of devotion before you get to the really fun part. But it's like a coconut; it takes a while to split its shell, but once you open it, you get the delicious milk inside. Okay, horrible analogy, but I think people should have the determination to get through the shell. I don't respect the type of person that gives up after their first attempt.

wavedashing and L-Canceling not only broke the intended balance

Who cares about what the balance was intended to be like?

And you can't claim that Melee would be more balanced without wavedashing and L cancelling, look at how much some of the low tier characters benefit from those techniques.

Imagine playing Mewtwo or Luigi without wavedashing or Bowser or Ganon without L canceling.

for the game, but also completely decimated the usefullness of some moves, while infinitely boosting the usefullness of others, now that every aerial keeps the intended amount of lag, and you have to learn to work around it, and you're forced to use a variety of moves or other anti diminishing strats, it makes playing properly much more of a mind skill than a hand skill, which is a good thing.

Great, they changed the usefulness of some moves- your point? Are you trying to tell me that there wouldn't be great moves without those techniques? And I don't see the mind skill in learning how to time your moves so they auto cancel, or in spamming a different move once in a while to build up your other moves.

In melee, a falco player that knew how to SHL approach and how to shine jump dair, and knew nothing else, but could perfectly perform the above, would still be able to cope with players much smarter than him, only by abusing the same strategy over and over. diminishing returns kills that ability, and making most techniques much more obvious and\or easy to learn, takes the competetiveness of the game to the next level.

A falco player that could only do those things would fail against anyone that thinks.

the more people can and want to compete - the game is more competetive. the easier and more accesible the controls are - more people would like them and want to compete. the more understandable the game becomes to bystanders - more people will want to try it, and will find it accesible.

This is true. That's the advantage to a game being so easy to learn, you draw lots of people in.

all of this does not in anyway mean that the game has nothing in it to learn, or has no depth. because performing perfect DI, Edge hogging(which now means falling to the edge at the exact timing of the opponent's Up+B in most cases, much harder than Melee), Comboing(Less hitstun = harder to combo = combos are harder to discover and learn. hard = good isn't it?) and more, still takes a ton of skill, and the better the opponent, the more skill needed and the more you can improve by playing.

Well, some of the time in Melee, you had to time your edgehogs perfectly as well, and less hitstun means that there are simply less combos, not harder ones. The ones in Melee were pretty hard already, I can tell you.

and like I mentioned before, Tech demanding stuff are still there, but on spcific characters. try to alternate grabs between ICs at a high percentage, I dare you. try to memorize the exact timing of the IC's chain for each of the 39 characters, I dare you.

True, it's just that this is the only one I've heard, technical things to learn are far and few in between.

 

[I.T.P]

Look, I don't want to argue that Melee should die, or that we've reached the maximum you can do in it, or that I think it's been overplayed, because that would all be lies, I still enjoy playing Melee, and I still think I can get better at it, etc' etc'


but completely ignoring the fact that a newer, more thought out game is out there, on the grounds of minor stuff like tripping and shorter combos is just flat out bad IMO, offcourse Melee had some stuff brawl doesn't have, but it works the same way the other way around, brawl is new, and has lots to learn. and yes, there are technical stuff in brawl, may or may not be as technical as Melee, but they're there, and we know aroud 1\10th of brawl than what we know of Melee. so why ignore it and diss it for such bad reasons?

why not just quit complaining all the time and play both? why not post your thoughts as opinion, and not cry about your life being over or your wii not being worth it anymore? I thought people here were better than that.



on the topic of my previous post: I am known to purposely exaggerate on this sort of things, I know Wavedashing and L-Canceling doesn't take "years" to learn, but consistantly implementing it does take a long time.

and yes, some characters don't require it, but that doesn't change the fact people are still crying as if someone just busted the skull of their 2 weeks old puppy...

I won't say "GO BACK TO MELEE MELEEF@GS " like some people here say, but for the love of god, if you don't like brawl just don't play it, but saying it sucks just because it has a diffrent style to it is just plain wrong, saying it's not as deep is wayyy too early, and ignoring everyhing the game offers just because it lacks some coolness techniques you liked in Melee is just bad.

nothing stops you from playing both and liking both you know...

 

[Corigames]

...L-Canceling not only broke the intended balance for the game...

I'd just like to say:

the developers put in L-Canceling. It's not a glitch. It's not an exploit. It is an advanced tactic that the developers put in on their own, same with smash 64. If L-canceling broke anything, it was there own fault. Good thing it didn't though.

 

[I.T.P]

I'd just like to say:

the developers put in L-Canceling. It's not a glitch. It's not an exploit. It is an advanced tactic that the developers put in on their own, same with smash 64. If L-canceling broke anything, it was there own fault. Good thing it didn't though.

I am fully aware that it was Intended, but it doesn't change the fact that it was severly undertested, and changed the game completely, instead of giving a small reward for correct timing.

 

[Lumpy..]

I am fully aware that it was Intended, but it doesn't change the fact that it was severly undertested, and changed the game completely, instead of giving a small reward for correct timing.

first of all... when did it become absolute fact (as you claim) that L-canceling went "severly undertested"???

secondly... the fact that Lcanceling was in brawl at first, then taken out before official release, is only further supporting the title of this thread...

he went OUT OF HIS WAY in efforts to minimize the chance of having a consistent winner...

edit: i don't really need to argue, seeing as how you got ownt by the witchking hahaha

 

[Ridley22]

The game has only been out for a month. GIVE IT TIME!

 

[Corigames]

The game has only been out for a month. GIVE IT TIME!

Why should I give a game more time than a month to reach a conclusion on whether it is good or not?

 

[I.T.P]

first of all... when did it become absolute fact (as you claim) that L-canceling went "severly undertested"???

secondly... the fact that Lcanceling was in brawl at first, then taken out before official release, is only further supporting the title of this thread...

he went OUT OF HIS WAY in efforts to minimize the chance of having a consistent winner...

L Canceling was removed because it had undesirable effects on the game's balance, I thought that was pretty obvious...

a new form of L-Canceling was attempted\glitchly kept\whatever, I'm not the devs. but apparently they decided they don't want it, so they took it out.

how this has anything to do with competetiveness is beyond me.

 

[FalconPunch]

It's amazing how people can predict the future.

Edit:

L Canceling was removed because it had undesirable effects on the game's balance, I thought that was pretty obvious...

a new form of L-Canceling was attempted\glitchly kept\whatever, I'm not the devs. but apparently they decided they don't want it, so they took it out.

how this has anything to do with competetiveness is beyond me.

Sakurai is a funny guy if balancing his own game out was an "undesirable effect"

 

[I.T.P]

It's amazing how people can predict the future.

Edit:

Sakurai is a funny guy if balancing his own game out was an "undesirable effect"

since when does L-Canceling make Melee balanced? as far as I know, SSBM is one of the least balanced fighting games out there...

 

[FalconPunch]

since when does L-Canceling make Melee balanced? as far as I know, SSBM is one of the least balanced fighting games out there...

I meant Melee with L-Canceling>Melee w/o in terms of balance, There's no denying it.

 

[I.T.P]

I meant Melee with L-Canceling>Melee w/o in terms of balance, There's no denying it.

umm, no?

just no.

try playing some Melee with no L Canceling, and you'll see you're wrong
the faster characters get even faster and gain much improved comboability, the slower charcters get slightly faster, and that's basically it.

Melee with no L Canceling is probably more balanced than with it IMO

 

[NES n00b]

umm, no?

just no.

try playing some Melee with no L Canceling, and you'll see you're wrong
the faster characters get even faster and gain much improved comboability, the slower charcters get slightly faster, and that's basically it.

Melee with no L Canceling is probably more balanced than with it IMO

Sheik and Peach doesn't really need L cancelling. So really, how is it more balanced again?

 

[FalconPunch]

Without L-Canceling,Sheik/Marth/Peach/Jiggz/Fox pretty much own everything while Ganon Bowser DK etc have no chance at all. Not to mention the simple fact that LC speeds up slower characters more than faster one anyway.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

The problem with going back to Melee is that Brawl is pretty much slowly killing off Melee's scene, at least in America. Personally, I would like to see them both live side by side, but I simply don't think that's possible.

I wonder how Brawl will be treated in Europe once it comes out, as so far the consensus here is that it's not a good tourney game and that Melee will be the dominate game for a while still.

Oh yes, about L canceling: the slower characters actually get much more out of it than the faster ones.

Think about it: You have two aerial attacks, one that normally lags 12 frames, and one that normally lags 20. L canceling cuts about half the lag normally, so the first attack gets reduced by 6 frames, and the 2nd, slower one, gets reduced by 10 frames.

And then think about one of the best comboers in the game: Sheik. You can combo even without l canceling, because sheik doesn't know what lag is. Now take Ganon. His combo ability is improved greatly through l canceling.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Sheik/Marth/Peach/Jiggz/Fox pretty much own everything while Ganon Bowser DK etc have no chance at all. ot to mention the simple fact that LC speeds up slower characters more than faster one anyway.

Pick any of the top guys against my DK and we'll see what you think. Or against my buddy's Ganon. How bout my 2nd main, M2?

You can make anyone dominant, thanks to L-cancelling.

The L-cancel makes Ganon pretty sick, you just have to be really good at spacing. DK's bairs are ridiculously fast as is his uair.

It seems to me that smashboards as a whole seems to forget that every character can beat every character, unless you're playing against M2K or someone else who's obscenely sick.

The L-cancel made the game more balanced.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Bowser cannot beat Sheik.

With and without l cancel.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Bowser cannot beat Sheik.

With and without l cancel.

But Bowser can beat Fox.

 

[FalconPunch]

Pick any of the top guys against my DK and we'll see what you think. Or against my buddy's Ganon. How bout my 2nd main, M2?

You can make anyone dominant, thanks to L-cancelling.

The L-cancel makes Ganon pretty sick, you just have to be really good at spacing. DK's bairs are ridiculously fast as is his uair.

It seems to me that smashboards as a whole seems to forget that every character can beat every character, unless you're playing against M2K or someone else who's obscenely sick.

The L-cancel made the game more balanced.

I'm arguing that L-cancel is good

 

[Yuna]

I won't bother responding to that vid, cause It's only one random vid I managed to record at the first tournament I went to way back, and I have played much better matches against the Japanese players and I have a bunch of vids I never bothered Uploading still on a VHS.

Sorry for taking so long to respond to this one, but:
Never use a really bad video of your as evidence of you being good.

what I did want to say, is the only reason I brought up that vid, is because some guy said "you think simplicity in controls is good, that means you probably suck at melee" and that's wrong, I wasn't trying to be cocky or any BS like that, just to say "I am entitled to my own opinion on brawl, whether or not I'm good at Melee, and yes, I'm good at melee".

Yeah, the only thing that video proved was that your opponent was playing like **** and so were you (no really, you were, I'm just being honest).

now, I know I don't care what you think of my vids or Melee play style, but don't go and offend my opponents for no good reason, Vall3y,Void and Fizz(the other top 4 members of our community) are very good players, and you're welcome to youtube those names and tell me what you think of them, if they suck in your opinion, good for you, I happen to know they are very good players by any standard.

You did a lot of stuff that would never work on anyone who's any good in those videos. If you do that often, then it must mean you never learn or your friends fall for it. If they fall for it, then they truly suck because your "tactics" are really easily countered. They might just suck against Peach but that's still sucking.

That or you and that Japanese player were both sandbagging like crazy in both games and doing **** you never would in normal circumstances (WTF @ Fair edgeguarding and Dashattack spamming?!).

and stop with the hating and flaming allready, I was just posting my opinion, and I'm entitled to do so, if you're looking to flame or rant, go somewhere else.

You were being all cocky and sanctimoneous and using the flawed logic of "I only barely lost to one of Japan's best players in these ****tily played game on both sides! Therefore, I'm good!". I was simply pointing out how cataclysmically wrong you were.

 

[Yuna]

L Canceling was removed because it had undesirable effects on the game's balance, I thought that was pretty obvious...

a new form of L-Canceling was attempted\glitchly kept\whatever, I'm not the devs. but apparently they decided they don't want it, so they took it out.

how this has anything to do with competetiveness is beyond me.

The game is more unbalanced now. Despite claiming otherwise, you can't know much about fighting games, Melee and Brawl if you think the game's more balanced since we don't have L-canceling anymore.

Characters that are slow and laggy are now at an even greater disadvantage versus those with fast aerials with little lag. Sure, a lot of aerials can be auto-canceled but it's very situational, especially when it comes to pressure or approach. L-canceling gave many more characters many more options for approach and shieldpressure.

Its removal shifted the balanced towards a select few like Marth, Toon Link and Pikmin & Olimar in terms of shield pressure and approach. Characters like Ganondorf and Yoshi are screwed because of the way their aerials work. With L-canceling, it would've been more balanced, however.

L-canceling made unplayable characters playable.

Bowser cannot beat Sheik.

With and without l cancel.

He certainly can in PAL where the dread Downthrow has been nerfed.

 

[NES n00b]

since when does L-Canceling make Melee balanced? as far as I know, SSBM is one of the least balanced fighting games out there...

Forgot to respond to this. XD

Melee is really balanced compared to ALL fighting games out there. Now in terms of actually good tournament fighting games, it is sort of mediocre as its balance is close to third strikes (Three great characters usually win tournies with a few others sometimes).

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

He certainly can in PAL where the dread Downthrow has been nerfed.

I am aware of that, but I'm pretty sure everyone else arguing here except maybe you, me, and Samochan has NTSC, so I was refering to that.

 

[I.T.P]

I am an arrogant prick who thinks I know best and that anyone that plays differently sucks.

your posts are just so much Fail, I won't bother Responding here, I just PMed you. read it and go back to that little cave of yours.

 

[Yuna]

your posts are just so much Fail, I won't bother Responding here, I just PMed you. read it and go back to that little cave of yours.

Playing differenlt =/= Playing well
Playing badly = Playing badly

How is calling your spamming the dashattack (despite getting punished for it almost every single time) bad playing in any way being arrogant or looking down at people simply for playing differently from them? I never look down on people simply for playing differently. I look down on them if they play badly and even then, I only look down on them if they think they're the ****z while sucking. It's not a requirement to be an amazing player. But when you think you are when you obviously suck, that's when I step out to point out how much you suck to get you off your high horses. If you yourself can't see that what you did in those two videos was pretty bad, I see no reason why I should even look at your PM.

Most people would wise up and stop dashattacking predictably and spammily after the 1st 5 times in a row they were shielded and punished badly for it. But not you.

You played badly. Samochan agrees (we actually discussed those videos shortly after you posted that one video). And I'd think any competent Peach would agree as well. Spamming dashattacks when they get intercepted 90% of the time = Bad, bad, bad.

You're not necessarily a bad player overall (but the more you talk, the more you seem like it). But those videos hardly showed us you were a good player. In fact, they pretty much showed the opposite. It's comical that you'd use them as proof of that you're a good player. You were so arrogant and smug when you linked to that video, thinking you'd given us an example of exemplary Peach play I had to laugh and point out why that video (and it's sister-video) failed.

The fact that you use the term "pro" is also a blinking red light.

Instead of declaring my posts fail, point out why they fail. I manage to do that to yours. L-canceling made Melee more balanced. Refute that. You claim the lack of it makes Brawl more balanced, I disagree and have pointed out why. Refute mine with something other than "Because I think so" (which is pretty much all your opponent is based on thus far... no facts to back it up at all).

 

[RDK]

L Canceling was removed because it had undesirable effects on the game's balance, I thought that was pretty obvious...

a new form of L-Canceling was attempted\glitchly kept\whatever, I'm not the devs. but apparently they decided they don't want it, so they took it out.

how this has anything to do with competetiveness is beyond me.

This is such a backwards statement, it's not even funny.

Please, enlighten us further on how L-cancelling (a technique available to EVERY character with the same exact results) causes more game imbalance than if it weren't there.

Honestly, every time you make a post it becomes more and more obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.