Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[Team Giza]

It sort of does, because his opinion actually affects the game.

The game is out. He no longer has any control over how the game is played unless they decide to do patches under his supervision... which I highly doubt.

 

[crazygoose]

I'm starting to see the patern here.

First, you people WANT Brawl to suck, because you suck at it. If you can't handle a shield camper, then for f*** sakes stay away from a game like 3rd Strike. You'd probably blow a vein.

Second, I have not seen a group that holds so dear to a set of preconceived notions and worst case scenarios, and eat up EVERYTHING that the so called "pros" preach about. I used to think that casualf@gs were just as bad as the tourneyf@gs, but the second that Hugs (or whoever) dropped that "rock paper scissors" line and everyone else here started using it, I knew just how bad things were here. Seriously, if you're going to advocate Melee, then drop the overused phrases. No one takes the word of a sheep with any kind of value.

Third, who gives a flying f*** if Melee is more technical. Its also an unbalanced mess, with far fewer options as to character selection and combat strategy. 3rd Strike is more technical than Super Turbo, but any SF fan worth his salt will tell you that Super Turbo is better by a miracle mile. Don't piss and moan when the majority of gamers don't share your sentiments about Melee.

Finally, its a f***ing party game. Just get over it. The games were made for fun with groups of people. FUN! This doesn't mean that it can't be competitive, but you need to realize that that these games were made for people to PLAY, not dissect. Drop the god ****ed melodrama about how Sakurai "betrayed" you, you ungrateful tw@ts.

Class dismissed.

 

[Aesir]

No it actually has quite a few options, you can like brawl and hate melee for all I care, but at least get your facts straight.

Theres more "usable" characters in this game then 5 which is what a lot people don't seem to get. there are 5 Great characters and about 10 other Good characters then the rest are about sub par or just bad.

 

[LouisLeGros]

Why can't there be more posters like Gluttony that defend Brawl... he doesn't make me facepalm

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'm starting to see the patern here.

First, you people WANT Brawl to suck, because you suck at it. If you can't handle a shield camper, then for f*** sakes stay away from a game like 3rd Strike. You'd probably blow a vein.

Many of the people here actually want Brawl to be a splendid success, but eventually many people face the inevitable truth, and then comes the negativity.

It's not that we can't take camping, it's that camping is the only tactic in this game with prolonged benefits. Many of the projectile based characters have an overwhelming advantage above many of the cast. due to this games obvious limitations in approach and mobility, attacking the opponent from far away is the best tactic.

The game is digressing because players are getting smarter.

Second, I have not seen a group that holds so dear to a set of preconceived notions and worst case scenarios, and eat up EVERYTHING that the so called "pros" preach about. I used to think that casualf@gs were just as bad as the tourneyf@gs, but the second that Hugs (or whoever) dropped that "rock paper scissors" line and everyone else here started using it, I knew just how bad things were here. Seriously, if you're going to advocate Melee, then drop the overused phrases. No one takes the word of a sheep with any kind of value.

Well, no one simply dropped the game because a tournament player made a smart remark, but through their personal experiences. I use to be a big advocate for this game, and I still am. I've been following this game for years, and after playing the final product, I simply feel no gratification in the competitive aspect of the game (If it exist).

If you were around for all of the smash era, you would know of these simplifications to the game engine. The smash series in the beginning was a game catered to many audiences. It had a simple yet complex engine that provided hours of fun. Competitive aspects were intentionally implemented into the game, and the same happened with Melee. many people figured that history would repeat itself, but Nintendo's demographic seemed to be a stronger influence. This ultimately caused the simplification of the series.

Many other games have become simplified due to this demographic. Notably, Super Mario Galaxy; which had 120 starts that really didn't require that much effort. Not to mention the ability to get 5-20 1-ups at the start of the game via mailtoad. In addition to that, many of the levels lacked the ability to fall off the stage or even be killed by an enemy. The mazes and contraptions of the game lacked the complications of Super Mario 64 and even Super Mario Sunshine.

But besides that, many of the people who simply quote people and follow sayings shouldn't be taken seriously. Many of them are just fanboys who want to live off of someone else's thunder. In particular, they choose to emulate people of a celebrity status.

Third, who gives a flying f*** if Melee is more technical. Its also an unbalanced mess, with far fewer options as to character selection and combat strategy. 3rd Strike is more technical than Super Turbo, but any SF fan worth his salt will tell you that Super Turbo is better by a miracle mile. Don't piss and moan when the majority of gamers don't share your sentiments about Melee.

Um, from the looks of it, Melee seems to be more balanced. Many of the technical aspects in Melee benefited every character. IN Brawl, the character advantages only work witrh specific characters. If Melee was so unbalanced, then why do you see so any amazing players with the capability of winning with low tier characters?

Ka-masters Luigi

Chu Dat and Tommy's Pichu (Chu's IC's too)

Kirby Kid's Kirby (Needless to say)

So many Ganon's (I can't name them all)

Gimpy & Gojira's bowser

The Germs Link

Mango's Puff

Eggz's Mario

Silent Spectra's Captain Falcon

Taj's Mewtwo

Simna's Ness

This is just a small sample of the players who can be efficient with many characters beyond the higher ups.

Finally, its a f***ing party game. Just get over it. The games were made for fun with groups of people. FUN! This doesn't mean that it can't be competitive, but you need to realize that that these games were made for people to PLAY, not dissect. Drop the god ****ed melodrama about how Sakurai "betrayed" you, you ungrateful tw@ts.

Class dismissed.

I'm sorry.

Let me just simply take a game that was supposed to be for everyone, then intentionally exclude a minority of players. Hey, why does it matter if we could have easily satisfied both audiences, let's just derail the entire community. I have a great Idea, how about we host an event for Super Smash Bros Brawl? If the upper crust players find anything the could potentially separate them from the lower level players, let's intentionally remove them. In addition to that, let's include a random element in the game so they would be able to make any sort of elaborate movement without risking the chance of getting KO'd!!

I think it's great that we limited the players ability to succeed. While were at it. Let's just jump right into professional sports. Allen Iverson? He's better than most casual sports players? We'll fix that. Let's just tie his limbs up so the other players can beat him. A championship doesn't mean anything as long as your both playing at your best, right?

I'm sorry for not chocking on Nintendo's balls. I willl proceed to do so...

 

[Dekuschrub]

Proof that sakurai is a loser lol



dahhhh i feel bad for people that lose in a skill based game, so i make it less based on skill so there is always a chance for the loser to beat a more skilled player DAHHH IM ******** MY NAME IS SAKURAI




GIVE US MELEE 2.0!!!!

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I keep seeing the newer members rant on about "evolving the meta-game". Many of these people probably have never been in a competitive gaming scene, much less the smash scene.

How can a game evolve when the only competitive potential it had was completely removed for the sake of putting all players at the epicenter of skill? This game has very little potential as a competitive fighter.

I'm actually glad that Sakurai isn't directing smash anymore. A person who believed that skill shouldn't have any value in what is essentially a fighting game.

I also have one question to the fanboys. What's wrong with wanting Melee 2.0? Good physics engine with updated graphics, more characters, and more stages. Believe it or not, both Brawl and Melee's physics engine has problems, but at least with Melee, you have control over your character and inertia.

 

[NES n00b]

Stuff

****, now how am I supposed to win money. In Melee, it is so much harder to win money.

=( lol

 

[Corigames]

I see what you did tha>_>

 

[Gluttony]

Why can't there be more posters like Gluttony that defend Brawl... he doesn't make me facepalm

I thank you for the compliment but to be honest it's because most of the people that defend Brawl haven't played Melee or atleast haven't taken the time to understand the game on a competitive level. So they really don't know what most of the competitive Melee players are talking about. I'm not calling out any names but for those that haven't played Melee it'd be best if you allow those who have played both games to give their opinion. You can talk about what you like in Brawl but please if you haven't played Melee do not attack the Melee players or Melee. It's best to simply state what you like about Brawl.

This isn't a "I'm better than you" post or anything like that. It's just some basic advice. If you haven't played Melee it's very hard to argue against it. If you haven't played Melee competitively it's best not to claim that Brawl is a more competitive game. All you succeed in doing is making us that can speak from experience to not be taken seriously. So please no more with the "Melee players are mad that they lost advanced techniques", "Melee players want 2.0", and "Melee players can't adapt." The truth is that they simply don't like Brawl. There's a lot of reasons for this, they have every right not to like it, and it has nothing to do with the reasons above.

The truth is that Brawl isn't like it's predecessors. It does not make a good successor to 64 or Melee. I'll openly admit this. The game is more like a spin off than a sequel. Infact it gives off a feeling that it was made by completely different people than the ones that made the first two. The only real similarity is that as you get more percents you fly further when you're hit. The objective is to knock the opponent from the strange. Random items drop from the sky and the characters are mostly Nintendo characters. The outside shell is the same but the guts on the inside is different. The truth is that the 64/Melee players have been waiting for a sequal for 7 years. The players were there for every update, every tiny bit of information, and played the game religiously dreaming of the sequal for a long long time.

The end result is a game that feels as if it was made by completely different people than the original. A game that isn't like a traditional fighter at all. It's not that it's not Melee 2.0 it's that it's not a traditional fighter like the past two games were. The other two allowed for fast paced offense, combos, quick thinking skills, and the ability to quickly destroy those that you were superior to. This new game is defense oriented, slow, and the matches take awhile. In Melee you could be defensive but you could quickly go offensive, punish your enemies, and even look cool while doing it. Combos, advanced techniques, and strategies that you couldn't possibly learn in one day.

You had to spend months or perhaps even years to learn them. The game had a high learning curve. In Brawl, however, your opponent can't be defeated so quickly. So instead you have to consistently predict what they're going to do. You have to pressure them with ranged abilities. Force them to approach even know when to approach but this takes time. There's a lot more options in Brawl than most people claim but these options are all related to defense. The Melee players want a FIGHTER not a game where you mostly sit in one spot and force your opponent to feel helpless and that he has to approach just so you can kill him off.

Learning the techniques in Melee also take a lot longer than learning the art of playing defensively. It takes a lot longer to master. There's advanced techniques in Brawl but the learning curve is nowhere near as high as it was in Melee. The Melee players even liked this too. They liked that there was a high learning curve. In Melee you had to think fast. In Brawl you don't. Every move resets the match. I actually like this but I can see why they don't. In Melee if the opponent tricked you a few times. You were destroyed. They dislike that the opponent can come out of a few blows and think to himself "Okay, I messed up, but I can change this around." They feel that the reward for tricking the opponent simply isn't enough.

I don't know for sure because I don't feel exactly the same but I think they feel like there's no point in the first bunch of blows. That there's really no accomplishment. So what if they hit them the first few times? It doesn't cripple the opponent. It doesn't really mean anything. They want their opponent to feel like they messed up. They want to feel like they did, well, damage.

The Melee players waited SO long. They feel betrayed. This is why there's so much venom towards Sakurai but even for those of us that argue in Brawl's competitive defense we still can't deny that tripping is just stupid. I'll admit that as well. There is no defending the aspect of tripping and even in the arguments about Brawl being equal to Melee a lot of the Melee players are even letting that one slip. Brawl takes skill. This much is true. Someone good at Brawl will indeed stand out and it will show that he's superior to his opponent. This is also true. It's not that the Melee pros can't adapt. It's that they don't want to. They see where the game is going. They don't like it. End of story.

They can be Gods at it if they chose. They just don't want to be. They wanted a sequal. Not a brand new start. I know that this long winded post mostly points out the bad sides of Brawl. I know that it capitalizes mostly on Melee. Even then I didn't give Melee it's full justice but I was pointing out how good of a game Melee is. I could do the same for the 64 game as well. Also people, please, stop bringing up "you always compare Brawl to Melee guys" it's going to be compared. Melee is it's predecessor. The best way to compare a game is to it's predecessor. Ever seen a movie sequel that sucked? What's the first thing you compared it too? I'm sure the first thing you thought was "Meh, it sucked compared to the original" and this is how these people feel.

This post is to help give advice to those joining the discussion as well as some of those that are part of this discussion. It's also to show people that it has nothing to do with Melee 2.0 but a sequel. They didn't expect that the game would be THIS MUCH of a difference compared to the original. Believe me. They wanted to like this game. They really did. It pains them as it is that they can't get into it. I'm lucky that I can still enjoy competitive Brawl but I feel for those Melee players that can't get into the game. For their sake I hope that Melee continues in tournament scenes. Remember this before you bash anyone.. we're all gamers. We each share a passion for games. So let's show everyone some more respect instead of flinging mud.

If I got some things wrong? I'm sorry. I tried to do my best to get people to understand where the Melee players are coming from. I also did my best to dispel some of the incorrect theories regarding the Melee players that's being flung around.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

****, now how am I supposed to win money. In Melee, it is so much harder to win money.

=( lol

It's easy n00b. Just press the buttons and watch the pretty colors flash. ^_^

Did you get that vid I sent you?

 

[NES n00b]

It's easy n00b. Just press the buttons and watch the pretty colors flash. ^_^

Did you get that vid I sent you?

Yes I did. Also, don't go stealing my strats. >=[

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Yes I did. Also, don't go stealing my strats. >=[

***** please. You don't know about my additional strats!! >: D

 

[greenblob]

I think the best way to get back at Sakurai is to find a way to make Brawl competitive, if that's possible.

 

[Samochan]

I thank you for the compliment but to be honest it's because most of the people that defend Brawl haven't played Melee or atleast haven't taken the time to understand the game on a competitive level. So they really don't know what most of the competitive Melee players are talking about. I'm not calling out any names but for those that haven't played Melee it'd be best if you allow those who have played both games to give their opinion. You can talk about what you like in Brawl but please if you haven't played Melee do not attack the Melee players or Melee. It's best to simply state what you like about Brawl.

This isn't a "I'm better than you" post or anything like that. It's just some basic advice. If you haven't played Melee it's very hard to argue against it. If you haven't played Melee competitively it's best not to claim that Brawl is a more competitive game. All you succeed in doing is making us that can speak from experience to not be taken seriously. So please no more with the "Melee players are mad that they lost advanced techniques", "Melee players want 2.0", and "Melee players can't adapt." The truth is that they simply don't like Brawl. There's a lot of reasons for this, they have every right not to like it, and it has nothing to do with the reasons above.

The truth is that Brawl isn't like it's predecessors. It does not make a good successor to 64 or Melee. I'll openly admit this. The game is more like a spin off than a sequel. Infact it gives off a feeling that it was made by completely different people than the ones that made the first two. The only real similarity is that as you get more percents you fly further when you're hit. The objective is to knock the opponent from the strange. Random items drop from the sky and the characters are mostly Nintendo characters. The outside shell is the same but the guts on the inside is different. The truth is that the 64/Melee players have been waiting for a sequal for 7 years. The players were there for every update, every tiny bit of information, and played the game religiously dreaming of the sequal for a long long time.

The end result is a game that feels as if it was made by completely different people than the original. A game that isn't like a traditional fighter at all. It's not that it's not Melee 2.0 it's that it's not a traditional fighter like the past two games were. The other two allowed for fast paced offense, combos, quick thinking skills, and the ability to quickly destroy those that you were superior to. This new game is defense oriented, slow, and the matches take awhile. In Melee you could be defensive but you could quickly go offensive, punish your enemies, and even look cool while doing it. Combos, advanced techniques, and strategies that you couldn't possibly learn in one day.

You had to spend months or perhaps even years to learn them. The game had a high learning curve. In Brawl, however, your opponent can't be defeated so quickly. So instead you have to consistently predict what they're going to do. You have to pressure them with ranged abilities. Force them to approach even know when to approach but this takes time. There's a lot more options in Brawl than most people claim but these options are all related to defense. The Melee players want a FIGHTER not a game where you mostly sit in one spot and force your opponent to feel helpless and that he has to approach just so you can kill him off.

Learning the techniques in Melee also take a lot longer than learning the art of playing defensively. It takes a lot longer to master. There's advanced techniques in Brawl but the learning curve is nowhere near as high as it was in Melee. The Melee players even liked this too. They liked that there was a high learning curve. In Melee you had to think fast. In Brawl you don't. Every move resets the match. I actually like this but I can see why they don't. In Melee if the opponent tricked you a few times. You were destroyed. They dislike that the opponent can come out of a few blows and think to himself "Okay, I messed up, but I can change this around." They feel that the reward for tricking the opponent simply isn't enough.

I don't know for sure because I don't feel exactly the same but I think they feel like there's no point in the first bunch of blows. That there's really no accomplishment. So what if they hit them the first few times? It doesn't cripple the opponent. It doesn't really mean anything. They want their opponent to feel like they messed up. They want to feel like they did, well, damage.

The Melee players waited SO long. They feel betrayed. This is why there's so much venom towards Sakurai but even for those of us that argue in Brawl's competitive defense we still can't deny that tripping is just stupid. I'll admit that as well. There is no defending the aspect of tripping and even in the arguments about Brawl being equal to Melee a lot of the Melee players are even letting that one slip. Brawl takes skill. This much is true. Someone good at Brawl will indeed stand out and it will show that he's superior to his opponent. This is also true. It's not that the Melee pros can't adapt. It's that they don't want to. They see where the game is going. They don't like it. End of story.

They can be Gods at it if they chose. They just don't want to be. They wanted a sequal. Not a brand new start. I know that this long winded post mostly points out the bad sides of Brawl. I know that it capitalizes mostly on Melee. Even then I didn't give Melee it's full justice but I was pointing out how good of a game Melee is. I could do the same for the 64 game as well. Also people, please, stop bringing up "you always compare Brawl to Melee guys" it's going to be compared. Melee is it's predecessor. The best way to compare a game is to it's predecessor. Ever seen a movie sequel that sucked? What's the first thing you compared it too? I'm sure the first thing you thought was "Meh, it sucked compared to the original" and this is how these people feel.

This post is to help give advice to those joining the discussion as well as some of those that are part of this discussion. It's also to show people that it has nothing to do with Melee 2.0 but a sequel. They didn't expect that the game would be THIS MUCH of a difference compared to the original. Believe me. They wanted to like this game. They really did. It pains them as it is that they can't get into it. I'm lucky that I can still enjoy competitive Brawl but I feel for those Melee players that can't get into the game. For their sake I hope that Melee continues in tournament scenes. Remember this before you bash anyone.. we're all gamers. We each share a passion for games. So let's show everyone some more respect instead of flinging mud.

If I got some things wrong? I'm sorry. I tried to do my best to get people to understand where the Melee players are coming from. I also did my best to dispel some of the incorrect theories regarding the Melee players that's being flung around.

People...

I think we just got a winner here.

Everyone please read this post carefully through, it's awesome.

 

[Cookiez]

'Tis definantly a more than worthwhile read.

 

[Empy]

@ Gluttony, thanks for summing that up, I hope it helps a lot of people understand why there are so many Melee lovers out there. I myself have only had Brawl for 5 days now (Netherlands so needed freeloader/import etc..) and after just 3 matches of vs Brawl against my regular Melee buddy, I concluded a few things and these have been true over the entire time that I played it (I have the 50 hours of Brawl award already so go figure):

1) I liked the Melee vs better. It's just much more alive. Brawl vs mode seems to be a walk back and forth game of mortal combat format. Sakurai wanted to make the air combat more alive, but I think he completely killed it off. In Melee, air moves were fast, but pretty high damage moves. You could take weak characters like Zelda, and still make a nice hit with a shffled bair. Better even, you could combo towards it from a grab. And just watching a match between 2 falco players was way different then, you can just tell by the first look.

2) Shieldgrabing is much, much too easy now. Just standing there holding your shield up seems to be the best way. Brawl vs mode looks like it's +2 for campers and -3 (weaker air combat as well) for the the agresive players. And Melee players are just used to attacking. I for 1 mained Sheik but played Falcon, Peach and Luigi on the side a lot. Falcon was amazing because of his fast combo's, his great running and jumping speed and the fact that he didn't have a single projectile, you just ran up to your opponents and hit them 360 around your body, before giving them a knee in the face. I haven't felt that kinda thing anywhere in Brawl... yet.

3) Auto-sweetspot, this really messes with edgeguarding and edgeguarding has always been a fun and important part of the game. It's a loss and a pretty big one if you ask me.

4) I would like to say that Brawl does have a lot of potential in my opinion. If more adv. techs are discovered, we might be able to speed the game up a bit, this would do it a lot of good. The grab game seems to be more important, it's just annoying that all the throws suck now as there are hardly any you can combo with.

5) Another thing Brawl has going for it is the balance. I for one loved how Bum took Donkey Kong to Melee tourneys.. I mean... it's Donkey Kong. Now I've played Ike for quite a few matches and I'm rather impressed. I expected him to be bottom tier by what people said, but they are all wrong. And I feel like proving it as well. I mean Ike kills at such low percentage and he does have some quick moves. His jabs are pretty good as well and his recovery seems pretty good. I even found a few combo's with him, that seem to work on quite some characters. And maybe, just maybe, this can swing things around for Brawl. Because every different opponent needs a different treatment, this could just be the advanced, high learning curve part of Brawl. Knowing all your combo % against all other characters has always been a big part of the metagame. But usually people just knew what to do against Falco, Fox, Marth, Peach and Sheik. Know you will have to know what to do against way, way more characters.... I hope.

 

[thumbswayup]

Gluttony's post is quite possibly the most complete and perfect understanding of this debate.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Great post gluttony, you really hit the nail on the head. I waited YEARS for a faster, better fighter, and got Brawl. I can't even tell you how upset I was when I started playing Brawl (it's really sad, when people at work notice you're upset and the reason is a video game). It's so.... BORING!!! And it's not even built to grow. It's SUPPOSED to be shallow and slow.

Betrayal is the correct word to describe how I feel.

Personally, I'm so disappointed I'm selling my Wii and getting an Xbox or PS3 and picking up a Gamecube again. Apparently Nintendo doesn't make games for gamers anymore, we're all reduced to the average newb. What's sad is I was so big on the Wii as well.

After 22 years of loyalty, I feel that Nintendo doesn't care about gamers like me anymore.

 

[thumbswayup]

Of course they don't care. The man behind smash is mentally challenged, "I set out to make sure the game did not over-emphasize the notions of victory and defeat". Doesn't this contradict everything fighting games stand for? Also, if you read that article you'll see he contradicts himself several times because the man is a joke.

Having competitive elements in a game DOES NOT IN ANY WAY harm your non-competitive audience. The sales of brawl as they are right now would be EXACTLY the same if dash dancing, L-canceling, and edgehogging were in. Also, why do you think brawl is selling so well? Is it because maybe everyone loved MELEE and it was the best selling game on the gamecube? It sold so well even with all the advanced techniques. This is the main reason I am so upset with brawl and sakurai.

Putting tripping in the game is one of the most cowardly acts I have ever witnessed. It's like a great big **** you to all the competitive gamers. Well, **** you too sakurai. **** you too.

 

[§leepy God]

You know what, I am sick of the post, "Nintendo betray me" or "Smash bros. Brawl suck becasue it's not a lot of combo's" blah blah blah. Well just about millions of people think that the Brawl sieres is the best of them all, a few thousand will alwasy complane after words. Do people ever think that Brawl is more than a little fighting game? If you haven't, then you are no gamer with any taste at all. Haven't you seen the rating this game alone has got? It's proof alone that more people want Brawl than Melee, I'm not a gamer that's lives in the past, so I prefure Brawl way over Melee anytime.

Oh and tripping doesn't happen too often, I say maybe once or twice in a match.

 

[Da Black Rabbit]

And that's why he's not American...

 

[thumbswayup]

You know what, I am sick of the post, "Nintendo betray me" or "Smash bros. Brawl suck becasue it's not a lot of combo's" blah blah blah. Well just about millions of people think that the Brawl sieres is the best of them all, a few thousand will alwasy complane after words. Do people ever think that Brawl is more than a little fighting game? If you haven't, then you are no gamer with any taste at all. Haven't you seen the rating this game alone has got? It's proof alone that more people want Brawl than Melee, I'm not a gamer that's lives in the past, so I prefure Brawl way over Melee anytime.

Oh and tripping doesn't happen too often, I say maybe once or twice in a match.

Learn English.

You and the millions of other people that think brawl is the best in the series did not play melee competitively and therefore have absolutely no credibility or value in your opinion.

Many elements in brawl almost exclude it from being a good fighting game. Brawl is a paradox.

 

[Danon]

Maybe you could choose not to play with them? Maybe the person who is competitive could just play more casually? Maybe they shouldn't invite that guy?

Basically, you could apply that to any game and any sport. That doesn't make those games suck. Oh noes, Michael Jordan just showed up guys, he's going to pwn us in our casual b-ball match. Seriously now...

Besides, you cant avoid that anyways. Even in Brawl, if someone who is a tournament veteran they will still win most if not all of their matches if they were trying in a casual setting. There is still a skill gap. The thing is, when you cross that skill gap, you realize that the game sorta gets camp heavy and more shallow.

This problem is unavoidable, and by trying to address it, it only hurts the longevity of the game.

One big flaw with that logic.

Nobody can be MJ. He is a truely special and unique human specimen that was crafted, not only by a lifetime of training, but by the cards he was dealt at birth.

So nobody can be another Michael Jordan.

But anybody who took enough time could be another MookieRah, Mew2King, Gimpyfish, or (insert name here).

 

[I.T.P]

Learn English.

You and the millions of other people that think brawl is the best in the series did not play melee competitively and therefore have absolutely no credibility or value in your opinion.

Many elements in brawl almost exclude it from being a good fighting game. Brawl is a paradox.

no, generic statements like this that state "what I say is god, everyone who thinks otherwise is stupid, and obviously didn't do XYZ and blablabla" makes you have no credability or value in your opinions, People are entitled to like brawl, it's a great game IMO, and in many people's opinion it is better than Melee.

whether or not it'll do as well as melee did in the long run is a diffrent story, but opinions are not facts, and Melee > Brawl is an opinion, and Many good Melee players like brawl very much, so please stop thinking that you're god, and just face the fact that not everyone thinks that fast, years to learn completely unbalanced games are the way to go.

why do I think brawl is better than Melee?

* More accesible to new people.
* More characters.
* Better balance
* Better and More stages+Stage builder
* Customisable control options, no more Utilt problems.
* Online functionality

these are basically the big ones, offcourse I'm not mentioning anything related to single player,music, or non-gameplay related stuff

Things I think Melee was better at:

No tripping.

and

.... nothing? Really, I mean it.

Faster gameplay = preference, not neccesarily good\bad

Harder to learn != deeper, whether Melee is deeper than brawl or not has yet to be seen.

Wavedashing and L-Canceling = Preference, really this is all a matter of accesability, these things hampered the ability to teach new people how to play, and they completely broke the original intended Balancing.

Easier edgeguarding = Preference, personally I like the fact you have to work harder to edge guard now, it makes them look cooler and more satisfying.

Longer combos = again, it's a preference, some people actually like the fact that you have to repeatedly best your opponent's strategy in order to win, and not just hit him once and then initiate a series of unstoppable attacks you've been practicing, I agree that melee gave you the option to try and avoid those, but the unavoidable combos were still too powerfull, and dominated high level gameplay.

anyone of the aboves is debatable, I enjoyed Melee very much, and was good at it in a competetive level, but I still think the balance in brawl, the accesability of it, and the new features make it a better game, even if it'll take a while to get to the same amount of in game options that melee had.

 

[Empy]

Learn English.

You and the millions of other people that think brawl is the best in the series did not play melee competitively and therefore have absolutely no credibility or value in your opinion.

Many elements in brawl almost exclude it from being a good fighting game. Brawl is a paradox.

Calm down this is not helping either. Where Gluttony was right about some Brawl supporters being ignorant of a Melee players background, the same goes for some Melee players.

First of all, I disagree with The Sleepy One as well and I understand what you are saying, but I don't like the way you put it either.

@ TSO, saying that millions of people like it doesn't mean we are wrong, nor is it so that it makes Brawl a good game. Millions of people like the amount of content it has to offer, like stage builder, subspace etc.... however, from the few casual people I played with, most of them liked the vs mode from Melee better.

I agree that people shouldn't scream "Nintendo betrayed me", but I disagree about the combo part. Really, people have a right to enjoy making combo's and if it's not in the game they've waited for this long, it's only logical they are upset. And we know tripping doesn't happen that often, but it is still stupid to implement. My girlfriend, which avoided Melee at all cost, took the time to watch me play Brawl a bit and when I tripped, even she said that it made no sence because "you said they were all hero's of video games right, but you can't even walk properly". This made me feel a bit dumb.

@Thumbswayup, I understand why you are upset, I really do, but just bashing everything and everyone isn't going to make Brawl a different game. I know your just trying to share your opinion and your frustrated at the same time, but right now I don't think your post are going anywhere. It's like trying to teach someone how to play Melee, and start waveshining him right away, admit it, he'll hate the game. There are people here that want to give Brawl a change, even if the game is slow, standing still with your shield is overpowered and combo's seem to be much harder, I do think we can get some nice combo's going with several characters and I do think we can get the game to a level which would take years to master. I really, really do.

@ Bovineblitzkrieg, I don't think you should sell your wii just yet, even though Brawl seems boring, it will probably give you more fun then most Xbox and ps3 games. The gaming industry is a point which is well, about the same as the movie industry right now. Honestly, when is the last time you went to the cinema and enjoyed a movie which was up there in the top 50 of all time? The same goes for games right now, Halo 3 is annoying for any halo fan as well.

The main thing is, I think everyone had their hopes up a bit too high. We were all expecting Melee, with loads of extra stuff. We knew wavedash etc.. was gone, we just weren't prepared for the fact the speed was gone as well. But we can speed it up a bit, we'll just have to give it some work.

 

[crazygoose]

What I find absolutely laughable, is that the anti-Brawlers assume that the pro-Brawlers have never played the rest of the series prior. Its laughable because most tournament vets I know only started playing Smash years into the Melee scene. Climb down off of your high horses, because it doesn't mean ****.

And I'll say it again, can the melodrama. Sakurai doesn't owe you a god ****ed thing, and none of you own stock in Hal so stop saying you were "betrayed."

For the last time, either play Brawl and develop your game, or remain the losers you are now. Or better yet, just tuck your tails neatly between your legs and run back to Melee. If your type thins out at the tournament scene, then the f@ggotry levels might me low enough for me to consider returning again.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

You know what, I am sick of the post, "Nintendo betray me" or "Smash bros. Brawl suck becasue it's not a lot of combo's" blah blah blah. Well just about millions of people think that the Brawl sieres is the best of them all, a few thousand will alwasy complane after words. Do people ever think that Brawl is more than a little fighting game? If you haven't, then you are no gamer with any taste at all. Haven't you seen the rating this game alone has got? It's proof alone that more people want Brawl than Melee, I'm not a gamer that's lives in the past, so I prefure Brawl way over Melee anytime.

Oh and tripping doesn't happen too often, I say maybe once or twice in a match.

LOL @ you.

I'm sick of the post that's sick of "betrayal" posts. My feelings are valid, and you're obviously a newb. Once or twice a match isn't bad? Again, lol @ you. End of story.


Edit: and guy who posted above me, you're a funny one too. enjoy playing your ****ty game.

 

[crazygoose]

Christ, it just hit me. I'm actually embarrased I never saw this before.

Meleef@gs constantly remind themselves in their posts that Melee is "better." They Constantly site things like their miniscule series and tournament experience to "back up" their arguments. They all have the same arguments and phrases to drop (rock-paper-scissors, etc) and site the same old "pros" while never speaking of the ones that don't agree with them.

Meleef@gs are trying to convince themselves and anyone else new enough to the series to listen, that its the game's fault for their suckery, not their own. Sure, they'll site a few superficial and asinine reasons as well (its not as fast, doesn't feel as "epic" bawww") to spice it up, but it all comes back to this.

The rest of the world has moved on to a bigger and better game and they want to fight it with whatever miniscule influence that they have, because they feel threatened that their minor position of tournament "fame" is about to go up in smoke.

What a sad, pathetic existence. Thats simply all I can say.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Funny how you belittle Melee supporters' reasons and facts when you don't present any yourself. Hypocrisy anyone?

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Christ, it just hit me. I'm actually embarrased I never saw this before.

Meleef@gs constantly remind themselves in their posts that Melee is "better." They Constantly site things like their miniscule series and tournament experience to "back up" their arguments. They all have the same arguments and phrases to drop (rock-paper-scissors, etc) and site the same old "pros" while never speaking of the ones that don't agree with them.

Meleef@gs are trying to convince themselves and anyone else new enough to the series to listen, that its the game's fault for their suckery, not their own. Sure, they'll site a few superficial and asinine reasons as well (its not as fast, doesn't feel as "epic" bawww") to spice it up, but it all comes back to this.

The rest of the world has moved on to a bigger and better game and they want to fight it with whatever miniscule influence that they have, because they feel threatened that their minor position of tournament "fame" is about to go up in smoke.

What a sad, pathetic existence. Thats simply all I can say.

The point isn't that we suck at Brawl, it's that Brawl isn't fun so we don't even want to play.

I guarantee you, if I wanted to, I could be pretty **** good at camping and grinding out boring wins. But why would I want to?

I don't care about tournament fame, I care about fun competitive play. I'm not threatened, I'm disappointed that my favorite game series is dead to me.

 

[Lovely]

Christ, it just hit me. I'm actually embarrased I never saw this before.

Meleef@gs constantly remind themselves in their posts that Melee is "better." They Constantly site things like their miniscule series and tournament experience to "back up" their arguments. They all have the same arguments and phrases to drop (rock-paper-scissors, etc) and site the same old "pros" while never speaking of the ones that don't agree with them.

Meleef@gs are trying to convince themselves and anyone else new enough to the series to listen, that its the game's fault for their suckery, not their own. Sure, they'll site a few superficial and asinine reasons as well (its not as fast, doesn't feel as "epic" bawww") to spice it up, but it all comes back to this.

The rest of the world has moved on to a bigger and better game and they want to fight it with whatever miniscule influence that they have, because they feel threatened that their minor position of tournament "fame" is about to go up in smoke.

What a sad, pathetic existence. Thats simply all I can say.

That's a strange way to put it, but I think I get what your saying.

But back to the thread title, I'm on Sakurai's side, making the game more fun is my way of liking video games. I don't play the game for compative, I play it for fun. And one of the main reason's why I love Brawl the way it is. It's a lot to do in this game. ;D

 

[Samochan]

Crazygoose, how in the world can the rest of the world be playing brawl when it's not even released in europe? Last time I checked, USA and Japan do not mean "whole world".

Also all of your points have been said before, some in way more intelligent manner, so you do not need to make a fool out of yourself by making insulting remarks about players that still play melee. All I can say is, that the post backfires on you and makes you seem sad and pathetic instead of us.

So, moving on folks.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4276728&postcount=575

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

That's a strange way to put it, but I think I get what your saying.

But back to the thread title, I'm on Sakurai's side, making the game more fun is my way of liking video games. I don't play the game for compative, I play it for fun. And one of the main reason's why I love Brawl the way it is. It's a lot to do in this game. ;D

Well, for us it is less fun because it is less competitive.

For me and many others, competitive = fun.

 

[JakedRooster]

The problem a lot of Melee vets are having is that they used to be some of the best players. Now that brawl is out, and leveled the playing field more, allowing the "noobs" to catch up, they aren't as superior to the lesser players as they once were. Gimpyfish said himself that Brawl isn't Melee 2, and to get that idea out of your head. SO here we have a new game that everyone is new to, and there are new good players coming out of the scene. Those pros from Melee that can't compete with these new guys are having egomaniacal feelings regarding their status in the community. I see this happening with two friends of mine, who used to play Melee all day everyday, and it would always be an uphill battle for me to secure the victory. Now Brawl is out and the playing field was leveled. Neither of them own Wiis and I do, I play more, I am better, and I win more. This is a problem for them, instead of learning the new game, they just complain that it isn't Melee. Play more, get better.

 

[Empy]

Crazygoose, your on idiot. That's all there is to it. Brawl was released because the smash bros series was a succes so far and saying Meleef@gs implement that anyone who thought smash 64 or melee was fun is a f@g, now that's just stupid.

Edit: I'm going to put the next thing in capslock, so there is no way around it,

NO MELEE PRO, WOULD EVER, EVER LOSE TO A BRAWL PLAYER/ SMASH N00B RIGHT NOW. THEY ARE MILES AND MILES AHEAD! NO1 IS UPSET BECAUSE THE PLAYING LEVEL IS "EQUAL" BECAUSE IT'S NOT. N00BS TO THE SERIES STILL DON'T STAND A CHANGE, NOT AT ALL!

 

[thumbswayup]

no, generic statements like this that state "what I say is god, everyone who thinks otherwise is stupid, and obviously didn't do XYZ and blablabla" makes you have no credability or value in your opinions, People are entitled to like brawl, it's a great game IMO, and in many people's opinion it is better than Melee.

whether or not it'll do as well as melee did in the long run is a diffrent story, but opinions are not facts, and Melee > Brawl is an opinion, and Many good Melee players like brawl very much, so please stop thinking that you're god, and just face the fact that not everyone thinks that fast, years to learn completely unbalanced games are the way to go.

why do I think brawl is better than Melee?

* More accesible to new people.
* More characters.
* Better balance
* Better and More stages+Stage builder
* Customisable control options, no more Utilt problems.
* Online functionality

these are basically the big ones, offcourse I'm not mentioning anything related to single player,music, or non-gameplay related stuff

Things I think Melee was better at:

No tripping.

and

.... nothing? Really, I mean it.

Faster gameplay = preference, not neccesarily good\bad

Harder to learn != deeper, whether Melee is deeper than brawl or not has yet to be seen.

Wavedashing and L-Canceling = Preference, really this is all a matter of accesability, these things hampered the ability to teach new people how to play, and they completely broke the original intended Balancing.

Easier edgeguarding = Preference, personally I like the fact you have to work harder to edge guard now, it makes them look cooler and more satisfying.

Longer combos = again, it's a preference, some people actually like the fact that you have to repeatedly best your opponent's strategy in order to win, and not just hit him once and then initiate a series of unstoppable attacks you've been practicing, I agree that melee gave you the option to try and avoid those, but the unavoidable combos were still too powerfull, and dominated high level gameplay.

anyone of the aboves is debatable, I enjoyed Melee very much, and was good at it in a competetive level, but I still think the balance in brawl, the accesability of it, and the new features make it a better game, even if it'll take a while to get to the same amount of in game options that melee had.

I never claimed to a god on the matter. I'm just ****ing sick of ******* noobs and their arrogant and illogical posts on this subject. They talk **** like they know more than the veteran smashers and that's when their opinions no longer matter.

Also, this list was interesting to me. Mostly because most of what you named is flawed and I will explain:
"why do I think brawl is better than Melee?

* More accesible to new people.
* More characters.
* Better balance
* Better and More stages+Stage builder
* Customisable control options, no more Utilt problems.
* Online functionality"

Only half of what you said is true. Brawl does not have better balance. Ever play a good metaknight? He's the most broken character in the game, and it rivals anyone of the top 5 in melee. His up b is godlike as a finisher and it can EASILY kill you at 0 percent. There are other things he can do, but I'm too lazy to name them. Just watch vids of Forte's metaknight and you'll understand. Pikachu is also cheap as hell. Down throw, down smash, down b, down b. Game. DDD can chaingrab most of the cast and can infinite some of them too. Know what that means? ZERO TO DEATH, and there's not a thing you can do about it.

Better stages is an opinion. I prefer melee stages more. Brawl ruined Pokemon Stadium, it sucks *** now. Also, all the new stages are god awful and so random. This wouldn't be a bad thing if they were actually FUN to play on. But they're not. New Pork City is the worst stage in the game. You can't even see yourself on the screen. What a piece of ****.

Online functionality shouldn't even be something you're proud to name. The button delay and lag is ridiculous and in the long run it will ruin the muscle memory you get while playing because somewhere down the line in a tournament in real life your timing will suffer. Online is unbelievably bad. **** nintendo. They've had all this time to bring online play to their games and it turns out like this.

 

[thumbswayup]

Christ, it just hit me. I'm actually embarrased I never saw this before.

Meleef@gs constantly remind themselves in their posts that Melee is "better." They Constantly site things like their miniscule series and tournament experience to "back up" their arguments. They all have the same arguments and phrases to drop (rock-paper-scissors, etc) and site the same old "pros" while never speaking of the ones that don't agree with them.

Meleef@gs are trying to convince themselves and anyone else new enough to the series to listen, that its the game's fault for their suckery, not their own. Sure, they'll site a few superficial and asinine reasons as well (its not as fast, doesn't feel as "epic" bawww") to spice it up, but it all comes back to this.

The rest of the world has moved on to a bigger and better game and they want to fight it with whatever miniscule influence that they have, because they feel threatened that their minor position of tournament "fame" is about to go up in smoke.

What a sad, pathetic existence. Thats simply all I can say.

No one cares what you think. You are a close-minded noob. It's bad enough you're talking **** without having played melee competitively first, but to not even try to understand where we are coming from is pathetic. You are the reason we get so mad on this issue. People like you, with absolutely no clue or insight in what they are saying, posting narrow minded statements that belittle people like us is uncalled for. Either open your eyes or stfu and gtfo.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

The problem a lot of Melee vets are having is that they used to be some of the best players. Now that brawl is out, and leveled the playing field more, allowing the "noobs" to catch up, they aren't as superior to the lesser players as they once were. Gimpyfish said himself that Brawl isn't Melee 2, and to get that idea out of your head. SO here we have a new game that everyone is new to, and there are new good players coming out of the scene. Those pros from Melee that can't compete with these new guys are having egomaniacal feelings regarding their status in the community. I see this happening with two friends of mine, who used to play Melee all day everyday, and it would always be an uphill battle for me to secure the victory. Now Brawl is out and the playing field was leveled. Neither of them own Wiis and I do, I play more, I am better, and I win more. This is a problem for them, instead of learning the new game, they just complain that it isn't Melee. Play more, get better.

No no no, you don't get it.

The point is not that we're mad cuz we're not as good at brawl, the point is that we don't want to play Brawl. I don't want to be good at a game I don't like.

Yes, the playing field is leveled, and that would be fine, I expected that. What I didn't expect was complete destruction of any sense of competition. I didn't want another Melee, I wanted a new, better game.

The pros from melee can certainly compete, and can certainly be the best, but why compete if you're not enjoying the game???

 

[Lord Viper]

Wow, I've been offline too long. I didn't think this many people would find Brawl a problem. And I thought complaners of Melee form Smash 64 got it bad. Well one things for sure, Character's appearance= Awesomeness for me, that's one thing that Melee didn't have.

But enough about that, you can't really complain on a game that's been done for a while, (Ive said that nine or ten page's ago). I've ask this question before, (what's more better a game based on skills or a game based on luck), well of coures skills will win, but Brawl has them both, skills and luck. What I'm trying to say is that it's over, if you don't like Brawl, just play another game instead of complaining about it.