Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[§leepy God]

I guess I've played my mind game long enough. -_-;

Who ever quoted my post is funny, I just wanted to see what people say. But this is my last time posting here, you debaters are so funny and mean with your words. Calling people a Smash noob with out knowing the person your posting, funny. XD

Ok, I'm done. D:

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I guess I've played my mind game long enough. -_-;

Who ever quoted my post is funny, I just wanted to see what people say. But this is my last time posting here, you debaters are so funny and mean with your words. Calling people a Smash noob with out knowing the person your posting, funny. XD

Ok, I'm done. D:

Thanks for your contributions, your input really furthered this thread along...

You basically called yourself a troll.

 

[Gill]

Why the **** do people keep saying the playing field is leveled now?

NO ITS NOT. A pro would learn how to space, combo, edgeguard, everything with a new character ten times faster than a new player. You think just because its a, *cough* "new game" that years and years of experience just vanish?

You wish.

 

[flyinfilipino]

but i thought any random noob could beat a pro at brawl becuz there's no skill involved?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Why the **** do people keep saying the playing field is leveled now?

NO ITS NOT. A pro would learn how to space, combo, edgeguard, everything with a new character ten times faster than a new player. You think just because its a, *cough* "new game" that years and years of experience just vanish?

You wish.

In... whoever you're talking to's defense, it isn't exactly a 1 : 1 transferal of skill, either. Just because the games are so very different (one might even go as far as to say 'antithetical') from each other, I'd say anywhere between a .5 : 1 to a .75 : 1 ratio. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

 

[Gill]

In... whoever you're talking to's defense, it isn't exactly a 1 : 1 transferal of skill, either. Just because the games are so very different (one might even go as far as to say 'antithetical') from each other, I'd say anywhere between a .5 : 1 to a .75 : 1 ratio. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Of course. Its not 100% but yeah, a 50% headstart is still MASSIVE. Its not an entirely different game. Its still Smash.

Maybe some of the vets are mad because they can't win like they used to, but they're still winning. Just not as easily. On the flipside though, we all know some of the crappy players here are just happy they have something to throw at the professional players' faces.

 

[thumbswayup]

Good ridance to The Sleepy One.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Of course. Its not 100% but yeah, a 50% headstart is still MASSIVE. Its not an entirely different game. Its still Smash.

Maybe some of the vets are mad because they can't win like they used to, but they're still winning. Just not as easily. On the flipside though, we all know some of the crappy players here are just happy they have something to throw at the professional players' faces.

I can agree with this assessment.

 

[I.T.P]

Only half of what you said is true. Brawl does not have better balance. Ever play a good metaknight? He's the most broken character in the game, and it rivals anyone of the top 5 in melee. His up b is godlike as a finisher and it can EASILY kill you at 0 percent. There are other things he can do, but I'm too lazy to name them. Just watch vids of Forte's metaknight and you'll understand. Pikachu is also cheap as hell. Down throw, down smash, down b, down b. Game. DDD can chaingrab most of the cast and can infinite some of them too. Know what that means? ZERO TO DEATH, and there's not a thing you can do about it.

I'm sorry but that argument is false, many characters right now are viewed as very very good and having a good chance in any tournament, among which are MK, Diddy Kong, ICs, DDD, Marth, Falco, Wolf, Fox, Zelda, Toon Link, Snake, Luigi, Mr G&W, Ike, Lucas, R.O.B, Wario, and more all have various stuff going for them, and right now no one is a certain winner and no one is a sure-fire top tier, and even those in general consensus to be top, have a lot of horrible matches, or are not that much better than others.

Saying brawl is imbalanced and MK > * simply proves one thing, you haven't actually played much of brawl, if any at all, and if you have you would have seen that there's still edge guarding - albeit harder, there're still combos albeit shorter and harder to time, and there're many good points and technical points to the game, that make it very interesting IMO.

and DDD's Infinite only works on 4 characters, and except on DK, it requires precise timing and for you to add a grab attack between each throw, seeing that it's now much easier to get out of throws, this isn't as cheap or as viable a tactic as people see it as, ICs' Dthrow chain with nana spike at the end is much more fearsome.

Better stages is an opinion. I prefer melee stages more. Brawl ruined Pokemon Stadium, it sucks *** now. Also, all the new stages are god awful and so random. This wouldn't be a bad thing if they were actually FUN to play on. But they're not. New Pork City is the worst stage in the game. You can't even see yourself on the screen. What a piece of ****.

now this shows even more ignorant, go read the stage discussion. out of 41 stages in the game, there're almost 10-11 that are considered neutral, as opposed to SSBM's 6, there're also around 10-15 CP stages, and this is a very big amount in comparison to Melee again, now sure if you look at it like a pessimistic give upper, then you'll say NPC sucks, but if you compare the new BF,FD,YI,LC and Smashville(the best 5) to Melee's best 5, you'll see they're much better stages with layouts that actually change.

not to mention you can build an infinite amount of neutral stages for tournament use, so even if all basic stages sucked, it would still be better than Melee's selection.

Online functionality shouldn't even be something you're proud to name. The button delay and lag is ridiculous and in the long run it will ruin the muscle memory you get while playing because somewhere down the line in a tournament in real life your timing will suffer. Online is unbelievably bad. **** nintendo. They've had all this time to bring online play to their games and it turns out like this.

again, you're Bi***ing and crying about stuff which isn't true, the game can buffer your actions so latency won't affect online play as much, and if your connection is even half good, then you can play no lag matches easily, if you can do that, who cares about the rest of the modes?


also, I never said the playing field was leveled, but as of now, most techniques in the game are fairly simple\obvious\findable things, that someone playing a lot and practicing can understand and use, and nothing in the game requires years or months of practice, not to mention that due to the new game speed(or flow, as I say) the game is now understandable to outsiders, making it that much better because they can actually enjoy watching it and they'll want to learn it.

 

[thedarkhand]

I haven't followed this thread in depth, but i've read the last couple pages and would like to add something no one else has mentioned. That is that in melee, anything could happen. someone could be down by three stocks, come back and win the game. In Brawl, the game being slow and it being impossible to combo, coming back from behind feels impossible. Being down by a stock feels like you are very far behind, and it seems nigh impossible to come back from. Also, certain characters seem to be far more lopsided, as chain throws now are much easier to pull off, and, as others have mentioned, shield grabbing is much easier. An example of this I've seen is pikachu d-throwing captain falcon to 50% without moving a step. In my opinion melee is the superior game, not because of all of the technical skill or the speed or anything else, but because playing to win feels like nothing but taking advantage of projectiles, chainthrows, and generally playing gay.

 

[thumbswayup]

I'm sorry but that argument is false, many characters right now are viewed as very very good and having a good chance in any tournament, among which are MK, Diddy Kong, ICs, DDD, Marth, Falco, Wolf, Fox, Zelda, Toon Link, Snake, Luigi, Mr G&W, Ike, Lucas, R.O.B, Wario, and more all have various stuff going for them, and right now no one is a certain winner and no one is a sure-fire top tier, and even those in general consensus to be top, have a lot of horrible matches, or are not that much better than others.

Saying brawl is imbalanced and MK > * simply proves one thing, you haven't actually played much of brawl, if any at all, and if you have you would have seen that there's still edge guarding - albeit harder, there're still combos albeit shorter and harder to time, and there're many good points and technical points to the game, that make it very interesting IMO.

and DDD's Infinite only works on 4 characters, and except on DK, it requires precise timing and for you to add a grab attack between each throw, seeing that it's now much easier to get out of throws, this isn't as cheap or as viable a tactic as people see it as, ICs' Dthrow chain with nana spike at the end is much more fearsome.



now this shows even more ignorant, go read the stage discussion. out of 41 stages in the game, there're almost 10-11 that are considered neutral, as opposed to SSBM's 6, there're also around 10-15 CP stages, and this is a very big amount in comparison to Melee again, now sure if you look at it like a pessimistic give upper, then you'll say NPC sucks, but if you compare the new BF,FD,YI,LC and Smashville(the best 5) to Melee's best 5, you'll see they're much better stages with layouts that actually change.

not to mention you can build an infinite amount of neutral stages for tournament use, so even if all basic stages sucked, it would still be better than Melee's selection.



again, you're Bi***ing and crying about stuff which isn't true, the game can buffer your actions so latency won't affect online play as much, and if your connection is even half good, then you can play no lag matches easily, if you can do that, who cares about the rest of the modes?


also, I never said the playing field was leveled, but as of now, most techniques in the game are fairly simple\obvious\findable things, that someone playing a lot and practicing can understand and use, and nothing in the game requires years or months of practice, not to mention that due to the new game speed(or flow, as I say) the game is now understandable to outsiders, making it that much better because they can actually enjoy watching it and they'll want to learn it.

Most of what you said is opinion as well. So, until it's proven otherwise, we are both wrong.

I have a great connection, FIOS. If it lags on mine then you know it's bad. By the way, I honestly don't care about lag. It's the BUTTON DELAY that sucks ***. It's like playing melee on an HDTV. It's so bad you'd rather not play at all.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Most of what you said is opinion as well. So, until it's proven otherwise, we are both wrong.

I have a great connection, FIOS. If it lags on mine then you know it's bad. By the way, I honestly don't care about lag. It's the BUTTON DELAY that sucks ***. It's like playing melee on an HDTV. It's so bad you'd rather not play at all.

What kind of router do you have? FIOS is great and has a great speed, but ultimately, the game (and data) can only run as fast as your router is rated to go, so if your router has a crap speed (comparatively), then you're still screwed.

I want to get a gigabit router, but I don't have the monies... [/cry]

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

What kind of router do you have? FIOS is great and has a great speed, but ultimately, the game (and data) can only run as fast as your router is rated to go, so if your router has a crap speed (comparatively), then you're still screwed.

I want to get a gigabit router, but I don't have the monies... [/cry]

But then you'd have to find opponents who have routers that work at the same speed, which is nigh impossible.

And even then, there's still going to be bouts of input lag, which is enough to ruin the game, IMO.

Actually, that's not true, it's like adding 10 to infinity.. it's meaningless because it's still infinity. More randomness added to Brawl doesn't really change much...


(i know that's a bit of an overstatement but I'm bitter. how much can i sell a wii, 2 controllers/nunchucks, and 9 games for???)

 

[LouisLeGros]

I thank you for the compliment but to be honest it's because most of the people that defend Brawl haven't played Melee or atleast haven't taken the time to understand the game on a competitive level. So they really don't know what most of the competitive Melee players are talking about. I'm not calling out any names but for those that haven't played Melee it'd be best if you allow those who have played both games to give their opinion. You can talk about what you like in Brawl but please if you haven't played Melee do not attack the Melee players or Melee. It's best to simply state what you like about Brawl.

This isn't a "I'm better than you" post or anything like that. It's just some basic advice. If you haven't played Melee it's very hard to argue against it. If you haven't played Melee competitively it's best not to claim that Brawl is a more competitive game. All you succeed in doing is making us that can speak from experience to not be taken seriously. So please no more with the "Melee players are mad that they lost advanced techniques", "Melee players want 2.0", and "Melee players can't adapt." The truth is that they simply don't like Brawl. There's a lot of reasons for this, they have every right not to like it, and it has nothing to do with the reasons above.

The truth is that Brawl isn't like it's predecessors. It does not make a good successor to 64 or Melee. I'll openly admit this. The game is more like a spin off than a sequel. Infact it gives off a feeling that it was made by completely different people than the ones that made the first two. The only real similarity is that as you get more percents you fly further when you're hit. The objective is to knock the opponent from the strange. Random items drop from the sky and the characters are mostly Nintendo characters. The outside shell is the same but the guts on the inside is different. The truth is that the 64/Melee players have been waiting for a sequal for 7 years. The players were there for every update, every tiny bit of information, and played the game religiously dreaming of the sequal for a long long time.

The end result is a game that feels as if it was made by completely different people than the original. A game that isn't like a traditional fighter at all. It's not that it's not Melee 2.0 it's that it's not a traditional fighter like the past two games were. The other two allowed for fast paced offense, combos, quick thinking skills, and the ability to quickly destroy those that you were superior to. This new game is defense oriented, slow, and the matches take awhile. In Melee you could be defensive but you could quickly go offensive, punish your enemies, and even look cool while doing it. Combos, advanced techniques, and strategies that you couldn't possibly learn in one day.

You had to spend months or perhaps even years to learn them. The game had a high learning curve. In Brawl, however, your opponent can't be defeated so quickly. So instead you have to consistently predict what they're going to do. You have to pressure them with ranged abilities. Force them to approach even know when to approach but this takes time. There's a lot more options in Brawl than most people claim but these options are all related to defense. The Melee players want a FIGHTER not a game where you mostly sit in one spot and force your opponent to feel helpless and that he has to approach just so you can kill him off.

Learning the techniques in Melee also take a lot longer than learning the art of playing defensively. It takes a lot longer to master. There's advanced techniques in Brawl but the learning curve is nowhere near as high as it was in Melee. The Melee players even liked this too. They liked that there was a high learning curve. In Melee you had to think fast. In Brawl you don't. Every move resets the match. I actually like this but I can see why they don't. In Melee if the opponent tricked you a few times. You were destroyed. They dislike that the opponent can come out of a few blows and think to himself "Okay, I messed up, but I can change this around." They feel that the reward for tricking the opponent simply isn't enough.

I don't know for sure because I don't feel exactly the same but I think they feel like there's no point in the first bunch of blows. That there's really no accomplishment. So what if they hit them the first few times? It doesn't cripple the opponent. It doesn't really mean anything. They want their opponent to feel like they messed up. They want to feel like they did, well, damage.

The Melee players waited SO long. They feel betrayed. This is why there's so much venom towards Sakurai but even for those of us that argue in Brawl's competitive defense we still can't deny that tripping is just stupid. I'll admit that as well. There is no defending the aspect of tripping and even in the arguments about Brawl being equal to Melee a lot of the Melee players are even letting that one slip. Brawl takes skill. This much is true. Someone good at Brawl will indeed stand out and it will show that he's superior to his opponent. This is also true. It's not that the Melee pros can't adapt. It's that they don't want to. They see where the game is going. They don't like it. End of story.

They can be Gods at it if they chose. They just don't want to be. They wanted a sequal. Not a brand new start. I know that this long winded post mostly points out the bad sides of Brawl. I know that it capitalizes mostly on Melee. Even then I didn't give Melee it's full justice but I was pointing out how good of a game Melee is. I could do the same for the 64 game as well. Also people, please, stop bringing up "you always compare Brawl to Melee guys" it's going to be compared. Melee is it's predecessor. The best way to compare a game is to it's predecessor. Ever seen a movie sequel that sucked? What's the first thing you compared it too? I'm sure the first thing you thought was "Meh, it sucked compared to the original" and this is how these people feel.

This post is to help give advice to those joining the discussion as well as some of those that are part of this discussion. It's also to show people that it has nothing to do with Melee 2.0 but a sequel. They didn't expect that the game would be THIS MUCH of a difference compared to the original. Believe me. They wanted to like this game. They really did. It pains them as it is that they can't get into it. I'm lucky that I can still enjoy competitive Brawl but I feel for those Melee players that can't get into the game. For their sake I hope that Melee continues in tournament scenes. Remember this before you bash anyone.. we're all gamers. We each share a passion for games. So let's show everyone some more respect instead of flinging mud.

If I got some things wrong? I'm sorry. I tried to do my best to get people to understand where the Melee players are coming from. I also did my best to dispel some of the incorrect theories regarding the Melee players that's being flung around.

*golf clap*

Great post, my only problem is with how you say melee players hate Brawl. Yes some do hate Brawl. However, most of it is just the competitive aspect of Brawl. For single player and casual play a lot of us love it.

 

[Lord Viper]

I guess I've played my mind game long enough. -_-;

What I tell about messing with people like that. XD

But all the anti Brawl people already messed up this thread with more hate speach as Melee to Smash 64.

Isn't the Smash World Form people suppose to like all three games the same way? That's one reason why I came to these forms, I'm not seeing the love for Brawl very much in the General Brawl Disussions... WHY!?

 

[thumbswayup]

(i know that's a bit of an overstatement but I'm bitter. how much can i sell a wii, 2 controllers/nunchucks, and 9 games for???)

A LOT.

Jack Kieser, I think I have a hybrid router or something like that. The wireless is pretty good, but it's just nintendo sucking *** so there's nothing I can do.

 

[Testament27]

Super Smash brothers Brawl : The Most Ironic Game Evar.


This game was supposed to be the gift god made over 9 years, wrapped in awesomenees. It was supposed to lead the people of the smash cult to glory and competitive infamy.

Instead, it has brought chaos to our forums and wreaked havoc in our community. The irony is too much.

Seriously though, at this point im like **** what everyone says. pro or not. brawl is my game and ill take its shortcomings just as i did with cs source.

 

[LouisLeGros]

What I tell about messing with people like that. XD

But all the anti Brawl people already messed up this thread with more hate speach as Melee to Smash 64.

Isn't the Smash World Form people suppose to like all three games the same way? That's one reason why I came to these forms, I'm not seeing the love for Brawl very much in the General Brawl Disussions... WHY!?

this is (or was) a forum primarily focused on competitive play. People who played smash competitively don't like Brawl for competitive play. There is no agreement when making an account here that you must like all 3 games equally or the same way.

If you don't plan on playing in a serious tournament then you have no reason to worry about 99% of the "brawl hate" posts.

 

[Gluttony]

*golf clap*

Great post, my only problem is with how you say melee players hate Brawl. Yes some do hate Brawl. However, most of it is just the competitive aspect of Brawl. For single player and casual play a lot of us love it.

Sorry about that. I was mostly speaking about competitive play. I know that there's a lot of Melee players that enjoy the casual play and the single player modes. I apologize for making it seem like they hate the game entirely. I didn't mean this.

 

[DQP]

oh noes! tournaments deconfirmed for brawl!

 

[Super Mari0]

God I hate this crap...

And I hate noobs who just dont udnerstand Melee!!!
The techniques dont break the game into pieces it opens lots of new innovative ways to fight and combo ***** around the stage

Its like a sport. Either you train the techniques use them efficiently and correctly, UNDERSTAND the game and the gamplay and how you SHOULD play to be able to give smashers like Isai a bit fo a challenge
(WD around the platforms, very very complicated stuff goin on here, Comboing, Knowing how to Combo and use attacks efficiently, Knowing what overcomes the Opponennt, knowing how to ****in ****)

And all the fun thats goin on in Smashfests you cant describe it or compare it with other stuff
ONLY THOSE WHO PLAYED MELEE IN A WAY THAT GIMPYFISH WOULD CALL EXPERIENCED KNOWS WHAT HES TALKING ABOUT WHEN ITS ABOUT MELEE

He does have to have a brain though



Sakurai is a noob who doesnt understand the correct uses of Melee
I dont want to play as a noob or do some lame *** ****in **** combos
I got sick of melee in about 2 weeks

After I heard about WD and stuff and when I was able to use the stuff in a quite AWESOME WAY and a way thats FUN, where I put my HEART IN IT, where I combo where I use the stuff I know
IM PLAYIN MELEE (advanced) FOR 3 ****IN YEARS AND IM NOT DONE YET EVEN IF BRAWL IS OUT MELEE ****IN RULES!!!!!

 

[Jack Kieser]

Sakurai is a noob who doesnt understand the correct uses of Melee
I dont want to play as a noob or do some lame *** ****in **** combos
I got sick of melee in about 2 weeks

After I heard about WD and stuff and when I was able to use the stuff in a quite AWESOME WAY and a way thats FUN, where I put my HEART IN IT, where I combo where I use the stuff I know
IM PLAYIN MELEE (advanced) FOR 3 ****IN YEARS AND IM NOT DONE YET EVEN IF BRAWL IS OUT MELEE ****IN RULES!!!!!

A ) Don't you think that tournament-style Melee play is a little too... unorthodox (comparatively) to be calling it the 'correct way' in comparison to how the game was designed to be played? I find it funny how people say that, just because they prefer what we've turned Melee into, it was supposed to be like that all along. I love what we've done with Melee, but I'm not arrogant enough to say that Sakurai either planned it that way all along or designed the game poorly and we just happened to be its saving grace.

B ) Yeah, 'cause that last part doesn't sound like fanboy ramblings in the slightest. That doesn't really lend you any credibility; just saying, in the future, you might want to stick more to logical facts instead of passionate fanboyism.

 

[crazygoose]

The reason I don't bother posting out a well devised argument anymore is because it goes entirely over the collective Meleef@g head. I crank out a multi-paragraph semi-essay, and the best you people can come up with is to call me a "noob."

lawl, well thats the general intellect of the Meleef@g, I suppose. Despite the fact that I've been playing Smash Bros for nearly a decade now, have had my fair share of tournament wins and losses, and have become quite frankly the best (or nearly) out of the circles I game in, I'm the f*cking "noob."

Classy. And insightful, too.

So, let me break it down to something you Meleef@gs can comprehend:

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAWW, I SUCK AT BRAWL!! I'M GOING BACK TO MELEE WHERE MY MICROSCOPIC C*CK CARRIES SOME WEIGHT!! WAAAHHH.

Suck it dry, b!tches.

 

[The Executive]

Lulz.

10char

 

[thumbswayup]

The reason I don't bother posting out a well devised argument anymore is because it goes entirely over the collective Meleef@g head. I crank out a multi-paragraph semi-essay, and the best you people can come up with is to call me a "noob."

lawl, well thats the general intellect of the Meleef@g, I suppose. Despite the fact that I've been playing Smash Bros for nearly a decade now, have had my fair share of tournament wins and losses, and have become quite frankly the best (or nearly) out of the circles I game in, I'm the f*cking "noob."

Classy. And insightful, too.

So, let me break it down to something you Meleef@gs can comprehend:

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAWW, I SUCK AT BRAWL!! I'M GOING BACK TO MELEE WHERE MY MICROSCOPIC C*CK CARRIES SOME WEIGHT!! WAAAHHH.

Suck it dry, b!tches.

You have yet to have posted a well devised argument that I have read. I am currently bored at work and will be stuck here for another hour. I have ample time to dissect anything you throw at me. Go ahead, try your best.

 

[Aesir]

A common misconception is players who prefer melee suck at brawl. which is mostly untrue I'm sure it's true in some respects but mostly untrue.

many find brawl lame and uninteresting where as melee has remained interesting for 6+ years.

Also MeleeF@g makes you look real mature.

 

[Cookiez]

...

*Makes popcorn*

I'm watching this.

 

[Lord Viper]

@thumbswayup like many people say, don't reply to stupied post. You will only get your self a headache from looking at they post.

I just like for some posters to understand that some people that dislike Brawl did not say you shouldn't play it. I just like some people that defend Brawl to understand that, but of course I'm for Brawl, they threw in a lot in this game for me to not turn it down, but that's my option. All I'm saying is that nobody is forcing you to play Brawl or put it down... if they are, then just ignore them for now.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

At this point everyone should have crazygoose on ignore. He's a funny one... best in his circle... lol. anyways...

We're all just voicing our opinions, nobody needs to get that ridiculous about it. The fact is, Nintendo is moving away from appealing to gamers, they're appealing to the average person (aka gaming noob). Thus why Brawl is abhorrent to so many of us.

I'm a gamer. I like competition. Nintendo prefers to feed its customers Cooking Mama and Mario Party over "gamer" type games. That's fine, I'll just voice my opinion with my wallet.

Goodbye sweet wii, your novelty was cool but you lack substance.

 

[Aesir]

****ing sig'd

 

[Jack Kieser]

Man, I leave for an hour and a half, and this is the best you guys come up with? A loudmouth pr*ck who, regardless of supposed skill, decides badmouthing is the best way to convince of a position, someone who is going to sell a system, and popcorn?!

...I'm disappointed. Come one, more intelligent (as possible) debate, less yelling/f*ggotry!

 

[Gluttony]

Man, I leave for an hour and a half, and this is the best you guys come up with? A loudmouth pr*ck who, regardless of supposed skill, decides badmouthing is the best way to convince of a position, someone who is going to sell a system, and popcorn?!

...I'm disappointed. Come one, more intelligent (as possible) debate, less yelling/f*ggotry!

Agreed. Name calling, bad mouthing, and the rest of it accomplishes nothing for either side of a debate.

 

[WSilva8017]

I'm a longtime smasher ... been playing since the original. I have a group of friends in which we play very competitively utilizing all the advanced techs popularized by the "tourny" players in melee. I've never participated in a tournament, though I admit I would like to ... I suppose that would make me a "competitive casual" of sorts. As such, I feel my opinion has some element of unbias to it being a blend of the supposed "target" audience of smash bros. and am compelled to weigh in on this debate, cus quite frankly theres quite a bit of BS (particularly from razor) that I feel hasn't been addressed in a satisfactory fashion.

For anyone whos ever studied common logical fallacies... there exists one in particular that is running rampant on this thread. It is called the either/or fallacy. It is a common albeit false habit for humans to picture complex problems in terms of black and white(either its THIS or its THAT) while allowing no consideration for the shades of grey. Now, bearing this in mind lets turn to arguments espoused by those who wish to squelch this community's legitimate problems towards this game, childishly dismissing them as "arrogant" and somehow unsubstantiated in their complaints. The recurring theme towards that end seems to be that "this is a game thats target audience does not include you, you are but a fraction of its fanbase and are in no way deserving of any feeling of entitlement as to how this game should have been." but wait a minute... couldn't both sides have been appeased? JUST like in Melee? This is the source of the outrage.

This is also where this argument falls flat on its ***. It seems to me that this community at large, that is those that wish to play smash competitively (no items, neutral stages, emphasis on skill-based combat), NEVER once squabbled over this game not being a complete and total 100% fan service to them. In other words, Brawl was never destined to be either A) catering to the masses, or the "casuals" who make up the majority of sales or B) catering to the "competitives" who spend years honing their game and taking the gameplay to unforseen heights ... building up lots of attention and lasting appeal for the game along the way.

No. Some elements of the metagame could have remained, and all would have been well(more on this later). The fact of the matter is after what this community has done for this series in terms of glorifying it and extending its popularity so much alone (not to mention countless amounts of time spent playing the game) is that they WERE entitled to some props from Sakurai and did indeed get the finger from him instead. He blatantly removed any mentionable competitive aspect from the game and for what? So some kid wouldn't feel the cold bitter harshness of defeat by the hands of a better player? We're accused of being delusional in our feelings of self-entitlement, but really if our hopes and wishes for this game were completely scrapped because Sakurai didn't want players to feel all poopy inside for losing, then who is it really that is in more need of a reality check?

and if you're thinking about countering any of this with some wrath of semantics about how this is "Sakurai's game" and we're not entitled to anything cus this is "his vision he can do what he wants blah blah blah" then dont. If you were to ask Sakurai, right now, point-blank, exactly WHO this game was made for, he would invariably answer - "the fans"; not himself. He has also gone on the record for saying he wishes to please everyone with this game. Of course, we all know its impossible to please everyone, but we know in this context "everyone" can be boiled down to 2 groups: those who play smash competitively, and those who play it casually. So forget what WE wanted out of this game, by Sakurai's own mindset, he has failed it himself. So please, no more lecturing about "his vision" as if you somehow have any idea of what that is.


Lastly(and this one's important), on how this game could have achieved balance without hampering casual play in any meaningful way, shape, or form. The idea that the inclusion of advanced techniques (L-cancelling, combos) and, god forbid, a physics engine that actually punished you (hitstun, less "floatiness," no more endless air-dodging) would somehow alienate the consumer and create droves of miserably dejected players is ludicrous. Players play others with similar skill levels. period. If you dont like the idea of getting your *** handed to you, then dont go to tournaments or get better. simple. If someone in your circle of friends who also played the game happened to improve, continuing to play him would in turn make you better. Of course this has all changed with the advent of online play HOWEVER given the existing parameters of the Brawl online experience, this would not occurr as random matches are not allowed between two players, only laggy 2 minute 4 player FFAs are with items turned on where not much of the player's individual skill is really a factor anyway ... regardless of advanced physics.


As a sidenote, my personal thoughts on Brawl: Me and my friends are having great fun with it and I love it, for the time being that is. Having played Melee for years now the lack of advanced play in Brawl is becoming apallingly evident to me and I fear for the game's longevity and replay value as a result. The sad thing is that the depth of the competitive play was removed so that good players couldn't dominate, but the good players will still win. The better player winning is always going to happen no matter what the game is, be it slapjack or chess. It seems all Sakurai really succeeded in was dumbing down competitive play to the point of stalling with more defensive options than offensive. Only time will tell I guess, but for now, I'm holding out and keeping an open mind.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Trust me, WSilva, you haven't thought of anything we haven't discussed already. Not looking down on your post or anything (it's thought out and to the point, even in its length, which is commendable), that's just the truth.

The debate will rage on regardless; I know that. This argument will not cease until either Brawl or Melee dies out entirely (see: The Great Item Debate, in which the discussion lasted until item tournaments ceased to exist, only to be dredged up with the onset of Brawl), which also jives with your (correct) assertation about humans and Black/White thinking. Everyone wants their favorite way/game to play to be the standard from now on... and until a 'standard' is established (as in, until either Melee or Brawl reigns supreme)... people will fight, unfortunately.

 

[Gluttony]

I'm a longtime smasher ... been playing since the original. I have a group of friends in which we play very competitively utilizing all the advanced techs popularized by the "tourny" players in melee. I've never participated in a tournament, though I admit I would like to ... I suppose that would make me a "competitive casual" of sorts. As such, I feel my opinion has some element of unbias to it being a blend of the supposed "target" audience of smash bros. and am compelled to weigh in on this debate, cus quite frankly theres quite a bit of BS (particularly from razor) that I feel hasn't been addressed in a satisfactory fashion.

For anyone whos ever studied common logical fallacies... there exists one in particular that is running rampant on this thread. It is called the either/or fallacy. It is a common albeit false habit for humans to picture complex problems in terms of black and white(either its THIS or its THAT) while allowing no consideration for the shades of grey. Now, bearing this in mind lets turn to arguments espoused by those who wish to squelch this community's legitimate problems towards this game, childishly dismissing them as "arrogant" and somehow unsubstantiated in their complaints. The recurring theme towards that end seems to be that "this is a game thats target audience does not include you, you are but a fraction of its fanbase and are in no way deserving of any feeling of entitlement as to how this game should have been." but wait a minute... couldn't both sides have been appeased? JUST like in Melee? This is the source of the outrage.

This is also where this argument falls flat on its ***. It seems to me that this community at large, that is those that wish to play smash competitively (no items, neutral stages, emphasis on skill-based combat), NEVER once squabbled over this game not being a complete and total 100% fan service to them. In other words, Brawl was never destined to be either A) catering to the masses, or the "casuals" who make up the majority of sales or B) catering to the "competitives" who spend years honing their game and taking the gameplay to unforseen heights ... building up lots of attention and lasting appeal for the game along the way.

No. Some elements of the metagame could have remained, and all would have been well(more on this later). The fact of the matter is after what this community has done for this series in terms of glorifying it and extending its popularity so much alone (not to mention countless amounts of time spent playing the game) is that they WERE entitled to some props from Sakurai and did indeed get the finger from him instead. He blatantly removed any mentionable competitive aspect from the game and for what? So some kid wouldn't feel the cold bitter harshness of defeat by the hands of a better player? We're accused of being delusional in our feelings of self-entitlement, but really if our hopes and wishes for this game were completely scrapped because Sakurai didn't want players to feel all poopy inside for losing, then who is it really that is in more need of a reality check?

and if you're thinking about countering any of this with some wrath of semantics about how this is "Sakurai's game" and we're not entitled to anything cus this is "his vision he can do what he wants blah blah blah" then dont. If you were to ask Sakurai, right now, point-blank, exactly WHO this game was made for, he would invariably answer - "the fans"; not himself. He has also gone on the record for saying he wishes to please everyone with this game. Of course, we all know its impossible to please everyone, but we know in this context "everyone" can be boiled down to 2 groups: those who play smash competitively, and those who play it casually. So forget what WE wanted out of this game, by Sakurai's own mindset, he has failed it himself. So please, no more lecturing about "his vision" as if you somehow have any idea of what that is.


Lastly(and this one's important), on how this game could have achieved balance without hampering casual play in any meaningful way, shape, or form. The idea that the inclusion of advanced techniques (L-cancelling, combos) and, god forbid, a physics engine that actually punished you (hitstun, less "floatiness," no more endless air-dodging) would somehow alienate the consumer and create droves of miserably dejected players is ludicrous. Players play others with similar skill levels. period. If you dont like the idea of getting your *** handed to you, then dont go to tournaments or get better. simple. If someone in your circle of friends who also played the game happened to improve, continuing to play him would in turn make you better. Of course this has all changed with the advent of online play HOWEVER given the existing parameters of the Brawl online experience, this would not occurr as random matches are not allowed between two players, only laggy 2 minute 4 player FFAs are with items turned on where not much of the player's individual skill is really a factor anyway ... regardless of advanced physics.


As a sidenote, my personal thoughts on Brawl: Me and my friends are having great fun with it and I love it, for the time being that is. Having played Melee for years now the lack of advanced play in Brawl is becoming apallingly evident to me and I fear for the game's longevity and replay value as a result. The sad thing is that the depth of the competitive play was removed so that good players couldn't dominate, but the good players will still win. The better player winning is always going to happen no matter what the game is, be it slapjack or chess. It seems all Sakurai really succeeded in was dumbing down competitive play to the point of stalling with more defensive options than offensive. Only time will tell I guess, but for now, I'm holding out and keeping an open mind.

*Claps* I am proud that another member can come in here debating with both an open mind and a post without insults. Your post makes a lot of sense. Another thing I want to give you props for is entering the debate with some understanding of both games in question. Your post was put together real intelligently. I have a question for you. You said that your friends are playing Brawl and having fun but have you played competitive Brawl? Have you camped your friends plus have been camped? Do you play with the extreme defense/try to play competitive like in Melee?

If the answer to all of these is yes I just want to ask you whether you find competitive Brawl boring. I personally enjoy competitive Brawl but I understand that many do not and they have good reasons. This post isn't an attack on you but I'm just curious what's your take on competitive Brawl? If you feel you have not had the time to test it's competitive level I understand. I also understand that you haven't been to tournaments but you seem like a pretty knowledgeable smart person so I want to hear your opinions regardless. Cheers and thanks for such a great post.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Good god, Gluttony, you quoted the whole thing? As if my browser doesn't like Smashboards enough... I do agree with what you said, though.

 

[Gluttony]

Good god, Gluttony, you quoted the whole thing? As if my browser doesn't like Smashboards enough... I do agree with what you said, though.

Yeah, I didn't realize how stupid it was that I quoted the entire thing until I did it. Sorry about that. I'm just used to posts being smaller and simply hitting the quote button.

 

[Lawlb0t]

The skill gap between noobs, newbs, casuals, skilled and pros is too small. I shouldn't have a problem with a casual because I have superior thinking and know how to apply tactics, but the game limits you, and leaves you open even if you don't screw up.

I am not an elitist either. Not to mention this game for some reason makes everyone think they own at it. This game is going to be competitive anyways, even if its pathetic.

 

[Jack Kieser]

The skill gap between noobs, newbs, casuals, skilled and pros is too small. I shouldn't have a problem with a casual because I have superior thinking and know how to apply tactics, but the game limits you, and leaves you open even if you don't screw up.

I am not an elitist either. Not to mention this game for some reason makes everyone think they own at it. This game is going to be competitive anyways, even if its pathetic.

Granted, this isn't the most representative spread of noobish players there is, but I have yet to be bested (especially by the margin you're implying) by any of my noob friends in Brawl; I consistently kick ***, even when I trip or get a bad matchup. The only time I don't win on a regular basis against these noob players is when I'm in a FFA... thanks to Ike, that giant douche. I actually had to fight three Ikes at once... multiple times.

I hate Ike in FFA.

 

[Gluttony]

The skill gap between noobs, newbs, casuals, skilled and pros is too small. I shouldn't have a problem with a casual because I have superior thinking and know how to apply tactics, but the game limits you, and leaves you open even if you don't screw up.

I am not an elitist either. Not to mention this game for some reason makes everyone think they own at it. This game is going to be competitive anyways, even if its pathetic.

This is a gross exaggeration. Either the casuals in question are closer to you in Brawl than you like to believe or you're exaggerating. My friends are all casual players but in one on one matches, no items, and on a fair map I can easily 3 stock any of them. They'll even openly admit this. Now among each other they're all about equal. Brawl is very different from Melee so perhaps it's that you're better at offense than defense but they're good at defense rather than offense which makes them closer to your skill level in Brawl? Just a guess.

Brawl is easier to learn to play than Melee but if you're really good at Brawl this will show in a match. Casuals do not compare to a serious competitor. A casual can not go toe to toe with someone that takes competitiveness seriously and do decently against them. Now it's possibly someone that's very skilled could do better against a pro than they would on Melee. The game is easier to learn so this is a possibility but not a casual. Still, I believe a pro would still dominate someone that's very skilled even in Brawl.