Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[Samochan]

I am aware of that, but I'm pretty sure everyone else arguing here except maybe you, me, and Samochan has NTSC, so I was refering to that.

Lawl I do not have NTSC (thank god). I play Pal version.

And I must agree that L-canceling makes stuff more balanced. It was also accessible to everyone, unlike low lag aerials and autocancels on brawl. Marth can still pretty much autocancel his aerials and lags very little anyway, sheik lags so little he doesn't need one, peach has float cancel, falco can laser spam and fox can do so too into grab comboes and waveshines and whatever. Falcon also lags little, though he does like to L-cancel a lot. Jiggs still has loads of rest comboes. Ice climbers still have chaingrabs and junk.

Ganondorf on the other hand cannot do anything without L-canceling, nor many other characters like Link, Pikachu, Kirby. Aka lower tiers suffer a lot more than the higher tiers, because on many occasion they rely more on shffled aerials than anything else. But really, some aerial that has little lag that most high tiers have benefit less from L-canceling, while aerials with lots of lag benefit from L-canceling a lot more. Without L-cancel, Ganondorf couldn't do any stomp comboes to fast fallers, for example.

Also there was little reason to actually remove L-canceling when it has been on previous games and worked well. With L-canceling on brawl, there might've been actual point in using aerials without getting hit right off the bat when you need to dangle in the air so you can autocancel it. Or just lag horribly so you can get punished for going airborne in the first place.<_<

Yuna, me thinks mentioning me on your post was a bit unneccesary, cause now I feel bad about talking trash behind people's backs. ._. Even while I do agree with your point which I said earlier... but still.

Oh and I played both brawl and melee today. While brawl is fun on it's own way, I truly love the freedom that melee gives me. Brawl is so restricting movement wise, unresponsive and way less intense.

 

[Super Mari0]

Yeah Im just mad at the noobs who say stuff like :

''Melee isnt made for using GLITCHES to destroy the physics of the game, to win. Its made so everyone can have FUN playing it!''

What the hell is up with that. What gives the noobs the right to talk about the advanced Players without knowing :

1) Who we really are
2) How fun it really is playin with all awesome Techniques and kickin Noobs *** (doesnt mean you give hatred, Pros teach noobs, its a good way to play)
3) How awesome it is in Smashfests rather than being alone in one room playin Online (seriously Smashfests are really fun!)

I bet if theyd know what it really means playing advanced, they would be like ''.... sry... about that Final Destination, Only Fox, no Items, thing... didnt know about this...''

But nope, theyre gonna still be the same noobs who still cant see a thing when it comes to having fun in Melee.
I got bored of Melee without advanced Techniques and WITH it, its so much more fun, well.... you pros know exactly why^^

 

[Sandwich]

This is such a backwards statement, it's not even funny.

Please, enlighten us further on how L-cancelling (a technique available to EVERY character with the same exact results) causes more game imbalance than if it weren't there.

Honestly, every time you make a post it becomes more and more obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.

Well RDK, I think this is the one think I can agree with.

 

[I.T.P]

First of all yuna, I PMed you some more in regards to your ridiculous accusations, you should re-watch those vids, specifically which one I did post and which one I didn't.

now beyond that, yes, I do believe L-Cancel was viewed as a mistake by sakurai, and that's the reason he removed it, you guys might be right about it being more or less balanced with it, we can't really say for sure, but the way I see it, Fox loses his Drill Shine combos and Shffl Combos same for falco, and also loses the ability. Ledge hops for all characters become dangerous, unless auto canceled, which impacts the most on the fast fallers.

Falcon turns way worse than he is with L Canceling, since in order to combo his Nairs you have to auto cancel them, which is way more situational.

Jiggs and Peach don't change much, I agree.

Mario and Dr. Mario suffer like hell. samus gets a slight nerf.

most heavy characters' moves come out slowly, so L canceling doesn't fix it anyway, but if you hit, the KOability of the moves is the deadly weapon they have, a good gannon will stay good without spamming shffled Fairs and Bairs, cause he will still hit with them, and won't need the comboability added by L Canceling in order for that one hit to take it's effect.

his main combos are actually Uair Combos, which work the same without L-Canceling.

I can go on, but if you look again, the better characters lose more than the worse characters IMO, which makes the game more balanced.

Same goes for wavedashing, except luigi and one or two others, most characters that get powered up by wavedashing are high on the list.


so don't just say generic facts and assume I'm stupid, I'm not. I have thought that statement out before saying it.

 

[RDK]

Well RDK, I think this is the one think I can agree with.

I.T.P., L-cancelling helped heavier, slower characters more than the absence of it in Brawl. Faster characters can still get hits off quicker than slower chars, with or without L-cancelling. At least with it, they still had less restricted movement.

Ask any Melee pro that mained a slower char in Melee. Gimpyfish will tell you that besides Bowser's obvious stats increase, it's still insubstantial because he's still bogged down with landing lag on all his SH'd aerials.

I can tell you from 1st-hand experience that Kirby, although being a better all-around character, still suffers from not being able to quickly SHFFL aerials.

 

[Sandwich]

First of all yuna, I PMed you some more in regards to your ridiculous accusations, you should re-watch those vids, specifically which one I did post and which one I didn't.

now beyond that, yes, I do believe L-Cancel was viewed as a mistake by sakurai, and that's the reason he removed it, you guys might be right about it being more or less balanced with it, we can't really say for sure, but the way I see it, Fox loses his Drill Shine combos and Shffl Combos same for falco, and also loses the ability. Ledge hops for all characters become dangerous, unless auto canceled, which impacts the most on the fast fallers.

This is where you're wrong, unless Sakurai is a major derp and forgot to remove L-canceling TWICE. SSB could've been one thing, but moving it to an entire new button for another game is not a mistake.

Falcon turns way worse than he is with L Canceling, since in order to combo his Nairs you have to auto cancel them, which is way more situational.

I'm no Falcon expert but I can say in the first place, if you play Falcon, nair isn't a priority many times.

Jiggs and Peach don't change much, I agree.

Mario and Dr. Mario suffer like hell.

No.

most heavy characters' moves come out slowly, so L canceling doesn't fix it anyway, but if you hit, the KOability of the moves is the deadly weapon they have, a good gannon will stay good without spamming shffled Fairs and Bairs, cause he will still hit with them, and won't need the comboability added by L Canceling in order for that one hit to take it's effect.

his main combos are actually Uair Combos, which work the same without L-Canceling.

I can go on, but if you look again, the better characters lose more than the worse characters IMO, which makes the game more balanced.

What point are you trying to make? Which is more balanced? Advanced Techs don't make the game balanced (hell, I can name Naruto Clash of Ninja where there are advanced techs), the gameplay does. I think that ATs didn't really do that to the gameplay. Maybe change it or accent it but no.

Same goes for wavedashing, except luigi and one or two others, most characters that get powered up by wavedashing are high on the list.

I'm going to contest that statement.

Looking at the high tier characters off the top of my head:

Marth: Other than the Ken Combo, wavedashing does not accent the gameplay
Fox and Falco: L-Canceling does, so I'll give this round to you, but wavedashing is not a serious factor
Peach: Wavedashing is not a factor.
Ice Climbers: Unless you're in a chaingrab situation, wavedashing is not a factor.
Captain Falcon: Wavedashing is generally not a factor.
Sheik: Not a factor. Hell, you can barely wavedash with her in the first place.

I understand you're not a ******, but the point your selling IS ******** and gives Yuna the impression you're a ******.

 

[I.T.P]

This is where you're wrong, unless Sakurai is a major derp and forgot to remove L-canceling TWICE. SSB could've been one thing, but moving it to an entire new button for another game is not a mistake.


I'm no Falcon expert but I can say in the first place, if you play Falcon, nair isn't a priority many times.




No.


What point are you trying to make? Which is more balanced? Advanced Techs don't make the game balanced (hell, I can name Naruto Clash of Ninja where there are advanced techs), the gameplay does. I think that ATs didn't really do that to the gameplay. Maybe change it or accent it but no.



I'm going to contest that statement.

Looking at the high tier characters off the top of my head:

Marth: Other than the Ken Combo, wavedashing does not accent the gameplay
Fox and Falco: L-Canceling does, so I'll give this round to you, but wavedashing is not a serious factor
Peach: Wavedashing is not a factor.
Ice Climbers: Unless you're in a chaingrab situation, wavedashing is not a factor.
Captain Falcon: Wavedashing is generally not a factor.
Sheik: Not a factor. Hell, you can barely wavedash with her in the first place.

I understand you're not a ******, but the point your selling IS ******** and gives Yuna the impression you're a ******.

First of all, I never said L-Canceling was not intended, I just said he decided that it did not work out the way he wanted it, there's a diffrence between those two statements.

Shiek can't wavedash? what shieks have you been watching?

Ice Climbers Barely use it?

Marth's wave dash doesn't affect gameplay?

I really don't see how you can state such absurd statements and then say that I am selling the wrong point.

besides, I'm not selling any point, I'm stating an opinion. which has no way to be thoroughly checked. but my opinion is that the devs felt L-Canceling disturbed the intended balance of Melee, and that is why it got removed, that and the fact that it makes the game less accesible, something that is sort of against the current industrial change in all fighting games, not just in smash.

Wavedash was not intended to be used as it was in my opinion, I may be wrong here, but I don't think any sane developer would see something like that and just shrug it off and keep it in, it was obvious it'll get removed.

the L cancel = more\less balance is an opinion debate, it could've gone either way, as many other lag cancels that we don't know if were intended or not also played a large factor in this, we can't really debate this sort of thing.

Yuna took the fact I linked to a video of mine against a well known player when I was pointed at "meh, you like brawl's simplicity, you probably weren't good at melee" and I made a sarcastic comment with it, and they turned it into a personal flamewar against my Melee peach with baseless accusations, to stop it from continuing 10 pages after I actually forgot all about it, I turned it into PMs.

but yuna still keeps to insults and slurs and ignores the fact this is a debate about OPINIONS, and I wasn't stating almost anything I said as 100% fact

 

[Samochan]

First of all yuna, I PMed you some more in regards to your ridiculous accusations, you should re-watch those vids, specifically which one I did post and which one I didn't.

Lol if you do not want people to view your vids or comment on them, do not post them on the internet. Simple as that.

now beyond that, yes, I do believe L-Cancel was viewed as a mistake by sakurai, and that's the reason he removed it

First of all, I never said L-Canceling was not intended, I just said he decided that it did not work out the way he wanted it, there's a diffrence between those two statements.

Okay, so Z-canceling which was on ssb64 had instructions on a website, which was then modified into L-canceling on melee that removes half of the lag and not all, was somehow viewed as a mistake by Sakurai? While he intentionally put it in? That's contradiction. >_>

If someone makes a game that cannot be patched, with technique that works exacly how it's supposed to work, I do doubt it could be or should be viewed as a mistake. With L-cancel we were able to cut down lag from aerials to half, and that's what we did. You do not suddenly KO opponent when you are able to L-cancel an aerial or do a glitch that makes your opponent character unmobile for the rest of the match. Note also that L-canceling wasn't removed on later NTSC versions nor PAL version, only some minor things were removed or tweaked like Flame Cancel and Sheik chaingrab.

Or maybe you mean when we discovered what we could do with L-cancel, Sakurai viewed it as a mistake cause we made a good work out of his techniques he left with us, so decided to remove all the things on brawl. Which is the actual point of this discussion, Sakurai intentionally removing stuff to make a restricting game supposedly "fun" for everyone, while showing a finger to the competitive community who were as deserving as the rest of ssb series fans.

Sakurai was like "Ooomg they're able to do comboes and stop a dash by crouch canceling and edgeguard and aerial dodge where they wanted. I must remove all things that can be used effectively asap so everyone can have equal fun. Everyone should be a winner on a fightning game where there is only one player or team actually winning, yay!"

<_<

 

[I.T.P]

Lol if you do not want people to view your vids, do not post them on the internet. Simple as that.



Okay, so Z-canceling which was on ssb64 had instructions on a website, which was then modified into L-canceling on melee that removes half of the lag and not all, was somehow viewed as a mistake by Sakurai? While he intentionally put it in? That's contradiction. >_>

If someone makes a game that cannot be patched, with technique that works exacly how it's supposed to work, I do doubt it could be or should be viewed as a mistake. With L-cancel we were able to cut down lag from aerials to half, and that's what we did. You do not suddenly KO opponent when you are able to L-cancel an aerial or do a glitch that makes your opponent character unmobile for the rest of the match. Note also that L-canceling wasn't removed on later NTSC versions nor PAL version, only some minor things were removed or tweaked like Flame Cancel and Sheik chaingrab.

Or maybe you mean when we discovered what we could do with L-cancel, Sakurai viewed it as a mistake cause we made a good work out of his techniques he left with us, so decided to remove all the things on brawl. Which is the actual point of this discussion, Sakurai intentionally removing stuff to make a restricting game supposedly "fun" for everyone, while showing a finger to the competitive community who were as deserving as the rest of ssb series fans.

you got it right in your second point, but you lost yourself in the middle

sakurai intentionally put Z Cancel in 64 and L cancel in Melee, but Later decided that it is still allowing too much abuse of specific aerials, and decides to remove it, but also reduces the lag on specific aerials, to make them look like L-canceled ones, effectively simplifying the game, just like Street fighter and GG are being simplified, while keeping the moves he wanted to have reduced lag on with reduced lag, and the moves that were supposed to be laggy are still laggy.

my point? the reason for this is mainly to keep balance while simplifying the game, the mistake part means that he decided that having L Cancel changed the game more than he expected, as well as created a big gap between player skill levels, a gap he wanted to reduce.

how any of this relates to "intentionally trying to hurt the community" or "not wanting the game to be competetive" is way beyond me. those are your words, not sakurai's, and I don't see it as a logical conclusion or assumption.

 

[Yuna]

now beyond that, yes, I do believe L-Cancel was viewed as a mistake by sakurai, and that's the reason he removed it, you guys might be right about it being more or less balanced with it, we can't really say for sure, but the way I see it, Fox loses his Drill Shine combos and Shffl Combos same for falco, and also loses the ability. Ledge hops for all characters become dangerous, unless auto canceled, which impacts the most on the fast fallers.

Since when are the fastfallers the best ledgehoppers in the game? If you shield a ledgehopped aerial from any of them, you're punishing them, almost guaranteed.

It's because the majority of the time, ledgehopped aerials are not landed (and thus not L-cancelled) because of how they work in Melee. For another thing, it's just one aspect of the game in which some faster characters will suffer (though the slower still suffer more). There's still everything else.

Falcon turns way worse than he is with L Canceling, since in order to combo his Nairs you have to auto cancel them, which is way more situational.

Boo! Hoo! CF can't L-cancel Nair into Nair! Wah! Wah! Bowser can't do jack ****! Bowser becomes totally unplayable!

Jiggs and Peach don't change much, I agree.

All hail the No L-cancel Top Tier.

Mario and Dr. Mario suffer like hell. samus gets a slight nerf.

Mario and Doctor Mario suffer like hell? Why? Because you regularly play Fair-spamming Marios and Dr. Marios? Samus doesn't suffer that much. The only aerial she really needs to L-cancel is the Dair (which is unsafe, anyway).

most heavy characters' moves come out slowly, so L canceling doesn't fix it anyway, but if you hit, the KOability of the moves is the deadly weapon they have, a good gannon will stay good without spamming shffled Fairs and Bairs, cause he will still hit with them, and won't need the comboability added by L Canceling in order for that one hit to take it's effect.

You obviously know nothing about competitive gaming or competitive Smash.

It's not just that they come out slowly (and contrary to popular or rather, your, belief, not all of Bowser's and Ganondorf's moves have long startups), it's that they lag forever afterwards. With L-canceling, Ganondorf can make the majority of his aerials safe on block. Without L-canceling, you block anything from Ganondorf and he's eating something to the face!

If someone lags a lot by aerials, you can spotdodge them and then whack them in the face. If they don't lag, they can L-cancel into a jab/roll to stay safe. Really, what kind of Ganondorf players have you been facing?

his main combos are actually Uair Combos, which work the same without L-Canceling.

Whose? Ganondorf's? Since when? Also, Uair -> Uair is easier if you L-cancel depending on %, DI and character.

Without L-canceling, Ganondorf is rendered unplayable. He can't camp very well (at all) without it (and he's not really much of a camper even with L-canceling). And he can't approach either since anything he does will earn him a lot of damage/a KO.

I can go on, but if you look again, the better characters lose more than the worse characters IMO, which makes the game more balanced.

Your opinion is bupkis because it's wrong.

Same goes for wavedashing, except luigi and one or two others, most characters that get powered up by wavedashing are high on the list.

Wavedashing allows you to punish things you can't otherwise punish. Tell me, how many characters can punish a blocked Fsmash from Marth besides Marth himself and a few select others if it's spaced (in any way) without wavedashing? Now how many can punish it with wavedashing?

Sheik's Downsmash? Peach's Downsmash? Falco's and Fox's various smashes and other various smashers from Higher Tiers (incl. Ice Climbers)? Take away wavedashing and how many Low Tiers can punish smashes and certain tilts on block?

The Low Tiers suck so much you don't even need wavedashing to punish the majority of their crap. And even if it were equal in "less punishment overall", it would still be unbalanced. The Tops, Highs and Mids can still spam their overpowered moves which would now be safe. The Lows would be stuck with their still sucky moves.

so don't just say generic facts and assume I'm stupid, I'm not. I have thought that statement out before saying it.

You've presented zero valid arguments.

 

[Yuna]

Also, what Sakurai thought, wanted and intended is irrelevant. The man is not infallible. He can (and has) make many grave mistakes. What he thought would happen with the removal of L-canceling is irrelevant if that didn't actually happen!

Was he stupid for trying out a new approach? Not necessarily. He might've genuinely thought the game would improve.

Are you stupid for arguing the game has improved despite the fact that it hasn't? Yes.

 

[I.T.P]

Also, what Sakurai thought, wanted and intended is irrelevant. The man is not infallible. He can (and has) make many grave mistakes. What he thought would happen with the removal of L-canceling is irrelevant if that didn't actually happen!

Was he stupid for trying out a new approach? Not necessarily. He might've genuinely thought the game would improve.

Are you stupid for arguing the game has improved despite the fact that it hasn't? Yes.

first of all read the title of the thread, the whole point of this thread is to discuss what sakurai was intending when he did X,Y or Z.

Secondly, I never said the game has improved due to the removal of L-Canceling. I did say that removing L-Cancel made it harder to change the intended balance of the game, and I feel the game is very balanced.

and I also said that removing L-Cancel made the game more accesible to new players, thus increasing the amount of players wanting to improve and compete, and thus improving the competitiveness of the game.

to me, more competitive or less competitive is not referring to the potential of the game, but to the amount and quality of players wanting to play it and enjoying it. you can't really see the full competitive potential of a game that's been out for around 3 months. so stating that the game is worse because of no L-cancel as if it was a fact, is definately making you look stupid, not me.

 

[Samochan]

Are you stupid for arguing the game has improved despite the fact that it hasn't? Yes.

While I do think that it's opinion based whether either game is better than the other, there is no doubt that removing things like directional aerial dodging and being able to stop a dash by crouching, while adding things like tripping are far from being an improvement. That would be called regression or dumbing down, also restricting.

Secondly, I never said the game has improved due to the removal of L-Canceling. I did say that removing L-Cancel made it harder to change the intended balance of the game, and I feel the game is very balanced.

And why is that you feel the game is somehow balanced I.T.P? Ever seen Olimar camp, Dedede chaingrab, Falco and IC laser and ice lock or everyone just completely shutting down any offensive attempts with a simple shield with powershield as an option? <_< More characters being broken doesn't mean **** if as many characters are unusable.

and I also said that removing L-Cancel made the game more accesible to new players, thus increasing the amount of players wanting to improve and compete, and thus improving the competitiveness of the game.

The game is not more accessible to new players due to removal of advanced technicues, but due to a new console and it being a hyped new game. Being able to play melee or brawl does not require any understanding of advanced techniques.

There might be more players playing the new instalment on the ssb series sure, but 10 lackcluster player does not equal one good player. Not everyone have the dedication, talent or skill to become a pro in things they try. If someone is not putting enough effort into a game, they simply will not be as good as those that actually practice. It does not improve the competition in any way because there isn't any competiton between the worse players and better players, so see who is actually the better player. For example, I am the sole good female player on Europe, thus I do not have any competition as in someone to be able to challenge me, even while there are few female smashers on europe.

to me, more competitive or less competitive is not referring to the potential of the game, but to the amount and quality of players wanting to play it and enjoying it. you can't really see the full competitive potential of a game that's been out for around 3 months. so stating that the game is worse because of no L-cancel as if it was a fact, is definately making you look stupid, not me.

Just that the lack of techs and overall potential does not magically improve the quality of the players. Everyone can play and enjoy it, sure, but sucky players do not suddenly become good players.

 

[I.T.P]

While I do think that it's opinion based whether either game is better than the other, there is no doubt that removing things like directional aerial dodging and being able to stop a dash by crouching, while adding things like tripping are far from being an improvement. That would be called regression or dumbing down, also restricting.

I don't think the air dodge change was a bad one, because it opened just as many options as it closed, because your previous actions are now of more importance, and you have more options after air dodging, making it a viable and important technique to use in places that earlier would result in an SD.

about Crouching a dash, it was just replaced with shielding a dash, while you do have to wait for the shield to come off, it's basically the same

Tripping is godawfull and WTF material, I agree 100% on that. but it is non-frequent enough to avoid killing off the good parts of the game. and the trip itself isn't very long or laggy, could've been much worse, it still sucks completely though.

edit: actually, it is the useable amount of characters that counts, not the unusable amount. except DDDs infinite on the 4 characters, which is harder to pull off than people make it out to be, especially under stress at a tourney, the other infinites are either escapable(Ice B-Lock is escapable with DI, I did it against void) or hard to fall into(tech...), and yes, I feel there's a large amount of very good characters that are fit for competetion, I'd roughly estimate that only 4-7 characters really have it hard enough to be considered not recommended.

if you're curious as to which, I'd say Gannon,Yoshi,DK,Jiggs followed by Falcon,Sonic and Link.

 

[ADHD]

Don't worry I'm sure that Wavedashing will be back in another form (this is my prediction)

Look at all the slides... brawl was focused on fixing the game so well so competitive players would be stuck with the noncompetitive players, and yet in doing so I would think that they would have to have their back turned to some open door of "glitches" or "exploits". Of course I don't have much to base my opinion on, but I guess its something to think about. But I have a feeling that the ice climbers will just become complete top tier seeing how broken their grabs are lol

 

[Egret]

Don't worry I'm sure that Wavedashing will be back in another form (this is my prediction)

Look at all the slides... brawl was focused on fixing the game so well so competitive players would be stuck with the noncompetitive players, and yet in doing so I would think that they would have to have their back turned to some open door of "glitches" or "exploits". Of course I don't have much to base my opinion on, but I guess its something to think about. But I have a feeling that the ice climbers will just become complete top tier seeing how broken their grabs are lol

I certainly won't fault someone for dreaming, but I'd say that's very wishful thinking indeed.

 

[Ban3]

their grabs arnt broken compared to king dedede he can infine chain grab some chars. well i guess they r a little broken lol

 

[Lumpy..]

I.T.P., you are ignorant... and you should really learn when to stop arguing...
i don't know you... and i don't know anyone else in this thread... but i will tell you that ever post of yours that i've read, as led me to believe you don't know what you're talking about, and as a result, you contradict yourself all the time...

and it's hella funny how you posted that video in order to prove that you didn't suck at melee...
then when people still said you sucked at melee, you argued that the video was old and you're hella better now... (peach should be owning falcos hahaha)
i'm a pretty chill guy and i usually don't state my opinion like this to someone i don't know,
but you make yourself sound a little bit like an idiot...

 

[Yuna]

first of all read the title of the thread, the whole point of this thread is to discuss what sakurai was intending when he did X,Y or Z.

Yes, but you're arguing that "Sakurai wanted it" as if it makes it true. No, it doesn't. He might have wanted something, but it's irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not it actually happened.

Secondly, I never said the game has improved due to the removal of L-Canceling. I did say that removing L-Cancel made it harder to change the intended balance of the game, and I feel the game is very balanced.[/quote9
You said the removal of L-canceling makes the game more balanced/playing Melee without L-canceling makes Melee more balanced. Even if you edit those posts out, we have quotes of you saying it. Stop retconning yourself.

and I also said that removing L-Cancel made the game more accesible to new players, thus increasing the amount of players wanting to improve and compete, and thus improving the competitiveness of the game.

Removing things from a game does not make it more accessible to new players if said things are so hard to figure out on your own very few do.

It only "makes it more accessible" to new players if it's a requirement to play the game at all. Super Smash Bros. Melee can be played without L-canceling, wavedashing and any of the other ATs and Ts. People still do it. To claim it makes the game "more accesible" is employing faulty logic.

The average casual gamer doesn't really have to worry about L-canceling. He doesn't use it and he'll most likely not encounter many people who do, anyway.

The only thing removal of many ATs, Ts and generally "dumbing the game down" did was lower the learning curve and skill level of the game (not necessarily a bad thing). Brawl (from what we know so far) play to the highest point will not be on the same level as Melee and that's it.

Since when have a new player to Melee been bothered by the existence of ATs and Ts they don't feel like learning, anyway? I can play lots of games perfectly fine without researching the ultimate way to play them competitively.

to me, more competitive or less competitive is not referring to the potential of the game, but to the amount and quality of players wanting to play it and enjoying it. you can't really see the full competitive potential of a game that's been out for around 3 months. so stating that the game is worse because of no L-cancel as if it was a fact, is definately making you look stupid, not me.

And that's where you, as usual, are worng.

I forgot to add a word in my last post, making it sound like I was claiming the removal of L-canceling automatically makes it a worse game. What I meant to say is: I've used logic and valid arguments to show why the removal of L-canceling, contrary to what you claim, makes the game less balanced.

You've insofar failed to counter a single one of my arguments and been able to only provide one or two valid arguments of your own.

I don't think the air dodge change was a bad one, because it opened just as many options as it closed, because your previous actions are now of more importance, and you have more options after air dodging, making it a viable and important technique to use in places that earlier would result in an SD.

The current airdodge + directional airdodging (more options) > The current airdodge alone. Never mind wavedashing, just give us directional airdodging.

about Crouching a dash, it was just replaced with shielding a dash, while you do have to wait for the shield to come off, it's basically the same

Only slower and less reliable and did I mention that the new shield game is godawfully broken?

edit: actually, it is the useable amount of characters that counts, not the unusable amount. except DDDs infinite on the 4 characters, which is harder to pull off than people make it out to be, especially under stress at a tourney, the other infinites are either escapable(Ice B-Lock is escapable with DI, I did it against void) or hard to fall into(tech...), and yes, I feel there's a large amount of very good characters that are fit for competetion, I'd roughly estimate that only 4-7 characters really have it hard enough to be considered not recommended.

This is not because they removed L-canceling, though. It's because they also rebalanced the game.

The fact still remains that there are a number of unplayable characters which can never win despite these changes and even the rest of the characters are grouped into slightly clear tiers where the best characters in the game have so many advantages over the rest of the cast.

 

[RDK]

Just a side note--it's a good sign when none of my posts are being quoted, because that means the ratio of stupid to smart people in this thread is decreasing, and people like Yuna and Samo are doing a good job arguing while I'm gone.

The Low Tiers suck so much you don't even need wavedashing to punish the majority of their crap. And even if it were equal in "less punishment overall", it would still be unbalanced. The Tops, Highs and Mids can still spam their overpowered moves which would now be safe. The Lows would be stuck with their still sucky moves.

To further back this argument, I main Kirby in Brawl (although I use the term loosely, as maining a sucky character is a hard and rocky road, esp. in Brawl), and have noticed recently more than ever how quick the more overpowered characters' moves are and how slow the lower-tier character's moves are.

Prime example: Pit f-smashes me, I shield. I can roll to the side of him quickly, while he's still engaged in the mid- to ending lag of his f-smash animation, but I can activate Kirby's f-smash as early as possible and Pit will still have time to put his shield up because of the sick lag on Kirby's f-smash. Then, while I'm engaged in the after-lag of the animation, Pit drops his shield immediately and either d-smashes me or b-air's me.

Even if I spot dodge, he can still grab me out of it when it ends or shield in anticipation of my next move.

 

[I.T.P]

Yes, but you're arguing that "Sakurai wanted it" as if it makes it true. No, it doesn't. He might have wanted something, but it's irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not it actually happened.

this entire thread is an opinion of gimpyfish - due to X Y and Z I have come to believe sakurai does not want smash to be competetive, I beg to differ on that one, because reading the same points and many other sakurai interviews did not make me feel he's against competetive play, only that he wants to make the game just as fun for those who are not playing competetively

You said the removal of L-canceling makes the game more balanced/playing Melee without L-canceling makes Melee more balanced. Even if you edit those posts out, we have quotes of you saying it. Stop retconning yourself.

I did say that removing L-Canceling for Melee would have made it more balanced, and you can't know how brawl would have looked like if L Canceling was there in a different form, which is why I'm not using this as a reason for the game being more balanced.

Removing things from a game does not make it more accessible to new players if said things are so hard to figure out on your own very few do.

It only "makes it more accessible" to new players if it's a requirement to play the game at all. Super Smash Bros. Melee can be played without L-canceling, wavedashing and any of the other ATs and Ts. People still do it. To claim it makes the game "more accesible" is employing faulty logic.

I meant more accesible to players that want to join the competetive community of it and learn to play at a competetive level.

many potential players I met or had in my community quit Melee due to their inability to conquer the tech skill difference that results in our vets being years ahead. brawl being new, and less demanding in that department, makes its competetive level more accesible, that's a fact not an opinion, and it will cause many new dedicated players to join the competetive communities and play the game.

The only thing removal of many ATs, Ts and generally "dumbing the game down" did was lower the learning curve and skill level of the game (not necessarily a bad thing). Brawl (from what we know so far) play to the highest point will not be on the same level as Melee and that's it.

Wrong, the point of the "dumbing down" is to make the game appeal to a larger group of dedicated players, competetive and skilled ones, not casuals. this "Dumbing down" has been going on for allmost every fighting game in the market, and the same arguments are being held at other forums. I am with those that Feel it is for the better.

I forgot to add a word in my last post, making it sound like I was claiming the removal of L-canceling automatically makes it a worse game. What I meant to say is: I've used logic and valid arguments to show why the removal of L-canceling, contrary to what you claim, makes the game less balanced.

your only argument was that a laggy move will be considerably faster while a less laggy move will only be slightly slower.

that's a bad argument, and a wrong one. the point of heavy characters is that their moves are risky, but if you hit with them, then you don't care about the after lag, because your opponent won't be near you to punish.

while the faster moves, without L Canceling, lose a lot of their potential to combo into other fast moves or into more powerfull moves. this is what causes Speed characters to lose some of their insanely overpowered abilities, and thus balances them in comparison to the slow,power characters.

L canceling should happen, but only for moves is was intended to happen for. Fox's Dair,Uair and Fair were never meant to be L Canceled, while his Bair and Nair are somewhat understandable.

The current airdodge + directional airdodging (more options) > The current airdodge alone. Never mind wavedashing, just give us directional airdodging.

I'd like to see you implement something like that. the whole point of the new airdodge is that the only Directional influence you have over it comes from understanding your momentum and aiming towards a usefull one.

Besides it's a new Idea, and it's not half as bad as you're making it out to be, with your Meleeism and brawl hatred

Only slower and less reliable and did I mention that the new shield game is godawfully broken?

Opinions = facts again? you can fight the new shield game, you're just crying about it for no good reason.

This is not because they removed L-canceling, though. It's because they also rebalanced the game.

The fact still remains that there are a number of unplayable characters which can never win despite these changes and even the rest of the characters are grouped into slightly clear tiers where the best characters in the game have so many advantages over the rest of the cast.

Again, this is your opinion, I beg to differ, and I think the Back room's list will disagree with that statement.




on a brighter note, samochan, It's nice to see that there are some sensible people here not looking for personal fights that actually enjoy having a normal and civilised debate. It's too bad there aren't many good female players...

about the accesability issue, I meant accesible for new dedicated players coming from the gaming area and from other Fighting Games, not for new Casuals. those are the least of my concern, and like you said, they wouldn't care about techniques unless someone explained them to them.

I did meet some good female players, we have one in israel , and I've met 2 in Japan, I hope there'll be more Female smashers this time around.


@Lumpy, even from watching that video, you can't say I suck at Melee, and no I didn't say "it was long ago and I'm hella better" or any bullcrap like that, in fact I said I don't care about my melee skill anymore, because I don't see any melee tournaments being held anytime soon in israel.

I did say the video I posted is better than the other one I recorded that day and didn't post.
but that has nothing to do with the fact people here started a flame war on me for being sarcastic and saying "I'm not as bad as you think" and linking to a video of mine.

also, you're welcome to ignore my posts, by I have enough free time ATM to make more posts, and I enjoy intelligent debates, and I do mean people like Coreygames,Samochan and others, and not people thinking they're god like yuna.

 

[SurooshX]

Whooooo!!!
Smash is a party game, whooO!!!!!!!!1....

 

[RWB]

Um, ITP...

While I dislike Yuna's general attitude, you put insults to him in your posts, and fail to even counter his argument in ANY way.

So, who is the one who is debating in an intelligent way?

Yuna.

 

[I.T.P]

Um, ITP...

While I dislike Yuna's general attitude, you put insults to him in your posts, and fail to even counter his argument in ANY way.

So, who is the one who is debating in an intelligent way?

Yuna.

except calling him a prick for his obnoxious attitude, I haven't insulted him anywere, and pray tell, what argument has he presented to brawl being worse than melee or to sakurai not wanting the game to be competetive did he post that I did not counter?

all he does is post opinions as facts, and waste time on personal flames against my peach, which is completely irrelavent to this discussion.

 

[Corigames]

RWB,

As a member of the community that calls themselves The Internet I have come to find that the evidence you have found pertaining to disputes while in the club-house of The Internet are a frequent occurrence. Many people believe that they can best support their claims by insulting their debater or by avoid the subject at hand altogether. Rest assured, we high ranking members of the internet are doing our best to lower such calamity by fighting the chaos of such things with logic, reason, and, most of all, wit.

We are taking control of the matter, so, please, move along. there is nothing more to see here.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Lawl I do not have NTSC (thank god). I play Pal version.

I am aware of that, but I'm pretty sure everyone else arguing here except maybe you, me, and Samochan has NTSC, so I was refering to that.

Oh and SuperMari0 also has PAL.

I wish this thread would just be closed.

 

[Reyairia]

Somehow, I've known this for months.
And I'm very happy with what he did with Brawl. I have fun, I laugh almost everytime I die, and I don't blame the item when I get killed by it, if anything I blame not dodging in time or whatever. It's my own fault, better luck next time.
I hated Melee because despite practicing for hours, I still kept losing against my sister.
Dont' give me any **** about Melee being about working hard. I worked my *** off and yet I kept getting defeated by someone who practiced a fifth as much simply because she was a Marth user.

Didn't Sakurai say that he made Brawl with what he wanted Melee to be in the first place?

 

[Corigames]

Though you already said it in your post, I get the feeling that you were either not truly practicing, or you just didn't have the right mentality to play melee in. If you really did work that hard, there would be pay-off for it.

I also find it funny that you would talk about how you were bad in melee and how you like Brawl. Also, you claim to play with items, if you know what I mean. It's a bit cliche for these boards if you ask me. There has to be more to the story unless you are admitting to being a scrub who likes Brawl because they are better at it than the game that takes more ability.

 

[Taekmkm]

Maybe he's a Samus user? :o

 

[frotaz37]

It doesn't matter.

 

[Corigames]

What does Samus have to do with anything?

 

[KosukeKGA]

Because life is inevitable.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Somehow, I've known this for months.
And I'm very happy with what he did with Brawl. I have fun, I laugh almost everytime I die, and I don't blame the item when I get killed by it, if anything I blame not dodging in time or whatever. It's my own fault, better luck next time.
I hated Melee because despite practicing for hours, I still kept losing against my sister.
Dont' give me any **** about Melee being about working hard. I worked my *** off and yet I kept getting defeated by someone who practiced a fifth as much simply because she was a Marth user.

Didn't Sakurai say that he made Brawl with what he wanted Melee to be in the first place?

Honestly, that's your fault.

Apparently, you didn't grasp the proper concept of playing intelligently, and you blatantly ran into everyone one of her obvious attacks. If she's being campy or C-stick happy, then play at her level.

Don't hate Melee because you were a horrible player. Even if you practice the technical aspects, lack of experience will keep you at the same level.

Above all else, not johns.

 

[Samochan]

about the accesability issue, I meant accesible for new dedicated players coming from the gaming area and from other Fighting Games, not for new Casuals. those are the least of my concern, and like you said, they wouldn't care about techniques unless someone explained them to them.

But still, melee was accessible for years for anyone to look for it and any dedicated player could get good on it. I know this because while I'm very dedicated to this game, I really do suck in the overall technical side of this game. And it does not help I picked peach as my first serious tournament character after Kirby failed, so I really didn't learn much but peach techs (albeit I did a good job at learning peach). But it did not help me improve my other technical aspects like L-canceling, shffling or anything else and peach really does need some backup character in case some kill em all marth comes around. But now I'm pretty happy about hw my peach turned out and all that hard work did pay off, lack of technical skill or not. What matters more on this game is the overall timing of your moves and how smart you play and those can take quite a load of time to learn to master. Masashi's fox for example is not the technical king, but he has all the basic stuff down but most of all, his timing is godly and he can predict anyone's *** 24/7 every second of their play (except maybe Armada's lol).

What my point here is, that the players that come around will not on most occasion be any dedicated. And dedicated players do not magically spur out of nowhere either. Dedication comes when you have a goal to achieve and can work toward it. Brawl fails here cause it doesn't really have anything to work forward to, thus there is no motivation to learn anything. On melee there is always something to learn, no one has ever mastered every single aspects of this game and never will be, because the gap is set beyond human capability. And then comes mindgames, new players will have big trouble trying to grasp the concept and ever become as good as veteran tournament players because it takes time and practice to fully understand the depth of it. And I do doubt other fightning game fans will ever hop to brawl board, that never happened with melee either while it was there for all tehse 7 years. Melee was just getting dissed by the other fightning communities and brawl will not change that. <_<

And casuals do care about techniques if they're already good with the basic stuff and want to get involved with the competitive scene. They need to get inspired by tournament scene. But what I've seen on my place, hosting triweeklies and all, that the players with most dedication and practice will go further than those who do not. And even while I am quite competitive on my nature, I don't see brawl inspiring me to work hard. You get no reward for working hard and that kills all motivation easily.

 

[I.T.P]

But still, melee was accessible for years for anyone to look for it and any dedicated player could get good on it. I know this because while I'm very dedicated to this game, I really do suck in the overall technical side of this game. And it does not help I picked peach as my first serious tournament character after Kirby failed, so I really didn't learn much but peach techs (albeit I did a good job at learning peach). But it did not help me improve my other technical aspects like L-canceling, shffling or anything else and peach really does need some backup character in case some kill em all marth comes around. But now I'm pretty happy about hw my peach turned out and all that hard work did pay off, lack of technical skill or not. What matters more on this game is the overall timing of your moves and how smart you play and those can take quite a load of time to learn to master. Masashi's fox for example is not the technical king, but he has all the basic stuff down but most of all, his timing is godly and he can predict anyone's *** 24/7 every second of their play (except maybe Armada's lol).

What my point here is, that the players that come around will not on most occasion be any dedicated. And dedicated players do not magically spur out of nowhere either. Dedication comes when you have a goal to achieve and can work toward it. Brawl fails here cause it doesn't really have anything to work forward to, thus there is no motivation to learn anything. On melee there is always something to learn, no one has ever mastered every single aspects of this game and never will be, because the gap is set beyond human capability. And then comes mindgames, new players will have big trouble trying to grasp the concept and ever become as good as veteran tournament players because it takes time and practice to fully understand the depth of it. And I do doubt other fightning game fans will ever hop to brawl board, that never happened with melee either while it was there for all tehse 7 years. Melee was just getting dissed by the other fightning communities and brawl will not change that. <_<

And casuals do care about techniques if they're already good with the basic stuff and want to get involved with the competitive scene. They need to get inspired by tournament scene. But what I've seen on my place, hosting triweeklies and all, that the players with most dedication and practice will go further than those who do not. And even while I am quite competitive on my nature, I don't see brawl inspiring me to work hard. You get no reward for working hard and that kills all motivation easily.

I actually agree with most of what you've said here, other than a few small details:

you lack faith in brawls future, which I have a ton of(I'm optimistic).

in israel at least, many players from other competetive communities glance at our community all the time, and many former casuals or former other-game fanatics are now addicted to brawl and are learning it and rapidly improving in it, and they all said the main factor was that it is now much less demanding.

offcourse you can play Melee without emphasizing the Tech side, I did that myself, but it comes as a price, you have to be good enough with peach to deal with every single one of her match ups, while not impossible, this did take some time to conquer.

 

[Attractive Penguin]

Stop the presses!
HE WANTED TO MAKE A GAME FUN HOLY BABY JESUS, HOW UNEXPECTED!

 

[Yuna]

this entire thread is an opinion of gimpyfish - due to X Y and Z I have come to believe sakurai does not want smash to be competetive, I beg to differ on that one, because reading the same points and many other sakurai interviews did not make me feel he's against competetive play, only that he wants to make the game just as fun for those who are not playing competetively

The discussion has moved passes that, though. It moved past that when you claimed Melee without L-canceling would be more balanced (and the sidediscussion of whether or not that one video proved you were a good player).

I did say that removing L-Canceling for Melee would have made it more balanced, and you can't know how brawl would have looked like if L Canceling was there in a different form, which is why I'm not using this as a reason for the game being more balanced.

I can't help but notice you've abandoned trying to argue this, yet you've yet to admit to being wrong about it either.

I meant more accesible to players that want to join the competetive community of it and learn to play at a competetive level.

Why must it be that way, though? Why must we dumb a game down and really limit the options just so it'll be easier for lazy players to join the competitive community?

If they don't have the patience to learn the technical aspects of a game, they won't have the patience to learn to "play it properly", either. They won't set out to play against all characters in the game to learn their metagames and how to play against them, they won't go to tournies and spend hours in training mode to become good with their own character(s).

To become a good competitive player, you have to sacrifice hundreds of hours. And lazy people just won't do that. Sure, there might be a few, but it's not like a ton of people will randomly say "You know what, I always felt like Melee was too hard for me to play technically but not Brawl!".

many potential players I met or had in my community quit Melee due to their inability to conquer the tech skill difference that results in our vets being years ahead. brawl being new, and less demanding in that department, makes its competetive level more accesible, that's a fact not an opinion, and it will cause many new dedicated players to join the competetive communities and play the game.

The problem is not that it's less technical, the problem is that because it's less technical, we lost a lot of options. And we weren't presented with many new ones to make up for said lack of options. All of this (gameplay suffers) just so that lazy people can join the competitive community?

If Sakurai had been smart, he'd dumbed the game down and introduced new options to make up for the lost ones.

Wrong, the point of the "dumbing down" is to make the game appeal to a larger group of dedicated players, competetive and skilled ones, not casuals. this "Dumbing down" has been going on for allmost every fighting game in the market, and the same arguments are being held at other forums. I am with those that Feel it is for the better.

"Every fighting game on the market"? Pray tell, which ones? The only other one I can think of is Street Fighter II: HD. And that's just making the inputs easier to put in... they're still there, though.

your only argument was that a laggy move will be considerably faster while a less laggy move will only be slightly slower.

that's a bad argument, and a wrong one. the point of heavy characters is that their moves are risky, but if you hit with them, then you don't care about the after lag, because your opponent won't be near you to punish.

How the hell are you going to hit people as Ganondorf?! He's cataclysmically unsafe without L-canceling. He can't pressure. He can't even approach (no aerials into jab!). So he'll be forced to just sit around and, um, wait for the opponent to leave a huge gaping window of opportunity and then hit them?

Meanwhile, Sheik can just run around and spam tilts, needles and fast aerials (spaced) just like she used to.

while the faster moves, without L Canceling, lose a lot of their potential to combo into other fast moves or into more powerfull moves. this is what causes Speed characters to lose some of their insanely overpowered abilities, and thus balances them in comparison to the slow,power characters.

A lot of the fast moves are fast enough to combo without L-canceling, anyway.

L canceling should happen, but only for moves is was intended to happen for. Fox's Dair,Uair and Fair were never meant to be L Canceled, while his Bair and Nair are somewhat understandable.

I'm sorry, what? "Were never meant to be L-canceled"? Who gave you the right to decide that?

I'd like to see you implement something like that. the whole point of the new airdodge is that the only Directional influence you have over it comes from understanding your momentum and aiming towards a usefull one.

There is no directional airdodging!

Besides it's a new Idea, and it's not half as bad as you're making it out to be, with your Meleeism and brawl hatred

At least I'm subjective enough to be able to argue things logically and clinically.

Opinions = facts again? you can fight the new shield game, you're just crying about it for no good reason.

I can fight the new shield game, sure. Doesn't mean it isn't broken and is even more skewing the balance towards characters with fast moves.

Again, this is your opinion, I beg to differ, and I think the Back room's list will disagree with that statement.

You think a lot of things. Have you noticed how almost no one agrees?

on a brighter note, samochan, It's nice to see that there are some sensible people here not looking for personal fights that actually enjoy having a normal and civilised debate. It's too bad there aren't many good female players...

She still overwhelmingly agrees with me and overwhelmingly disagrees with you, though. I've been civil, although still sarcastic (it's a way of life). The only time I was being uncivil was when I pointed out the many ways you played badly in those videos.

But at least I haven't resorted to outright flaming and namecalling (ehum).

@Lumpy, even from watching that video, you can't say I suck at Melee, and no I didn't say "it was long ago and I'm hella better" or any bullcrap like that, in fact I said I don't care about my melee skill anymore, because I don't see any melee tournaments being held anytime soon in israel.

You don't outright suck. But you're not that good if we're going by that (and the other) video alone. And if you played Melee like that and are still playing Brawl anywhere like that, then you can't be a very good Brawl player either.

also, you're welcome to ignore my posts, by I have enough free time ATM to make more posts, and I enjoy intelligent debates, and I do mean people like Coreygames,Samochan and others, and not people thinking they're god like yuna.

I can be sarcastic, confrontational, quasi-uncivil and still have intelligent debate. I've noticed the majority of posters say "Yuna is overdoing it, but his arguments are intelligent and sound".

Now the problem is, can you have any kind of intelligent debate, ever, Mr. "Dair was never supposed to be L-canceled"?

except calling him a prick for his obnoxious attitude, I haven't insulted him anywere, and pray tell, what argument has he presented to brawl being worse than melee or to sakurai not wanting the game to be competetive did he post that I did not counter?

Reading comprehension is very important. I was unaware of the argument at hand being whether or not Brawl is worse than Melee or that that was the core of my argument.

e all he does is post opinions as facts, and waste time on personal flames against my peach, which is completely irrelavent to this discussion.

I don't post opinions as facts. I post opinions backed up with facts. Just because I don't say "IMO" with every single sentence I say doesn't mean I'm saying "This is 100% true". However, unlike you, I back up everything I say.

in israel at least, many players from other competetive communities glance at our community all the time, and many former casuals or former other-game fanatics are now addicted to brawl and are learning it and rapidly improving in it, and they all said the main factor was that it is now much less demanding.

Will they put down the hundreds of hours it'll take to become competitively good at the game? Or will their laziness take over and they'll be stuck at a certain level, anyway?

offcourse you can play Melee without emphasizing the Tech side, I did that myself, but it comes as a price, you have to be good enough with peach to deal with every single one of her match ups, while not impossible, this did take some time to conquer.

Not really, if that video (the one you actually posted) is anything to go by.

I did manage to develop anti marth and anti shiek styles good enough to take a few matches from CJ and TANI, but I don't see myself reaching a level where I can win against them over 20-30%, no matter how much I practice. they're just inhuman.

I thought we covered this. What you do in friendlies is irrelevant. Especially against the Japanese who are worldwide known to sandbag like crazy.

Masashi is even worse, but he's at a matchup that is much more balanced. I actually took a few games from him, even though he ***** me most of the time, playing him 100% and taking a victory is the hardest challange I've ever had in smash, I still have some cool vids on tape which I plan to capture, I'd be glad if you'd watch them when I do.

Funny, my ratio against Masashi (in friendlies, because apparently that's what we're counting) is 50-50. According to your own logic:
Yuna >>>>>> I.T.P.

edit: this post is not meant to be egoistic, just sharing some personal experiences. it's not my intention to say that I'm a pro or at the same level as pros, I'm only mentioning some past experiences.

Even though it's totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

 

[Samochan]

L canceling should happen, but only for moves is was intended to happen for. Fox's Dair,Uair and Fair were never meant to be L Canceled, while his Bair and Nair are somewhat understandable.

Erm, what? You say that L-canceling should only be reserved for certain characters or moves while Sakurai intentionally enabled almost every aerial and character to be able to L-cancel? >_> GW's bair and uair are the sole exception here, which further proves my point and makes yours seem quite, uhm, ridiculous to say the least.

Sakurai intentionally leaving wavedash in and making shine jump cancelable and having so little lag on fox's aerials anyway and that ridiculous grab and upsmash and uair was just asking for the fox aerial to waveshine to grab/upsmash to be born, for example. >_> And I don't even go to the sheik chaingrab on NTSC... Dedede, Falco and IC chaingrabs on brawl, lol. Sakurai forgot what set knockback throws do on melee.<_<

 

[thumbswayup]

I.T.P does not know what he's talking about.

 

[NES n00b]

Stop the presses!
HE WANTED TO MAKE A GAME FUN HOLY BABY JESUS, HOW UNEXPECTED!

I guess he failed me. =/ lol

Also, in my experiences against other people, I whoop ***. Who cares about what random **** person you beat. I beat Chaddd in a MM once, but you know what? NO ONE CARES! When you also throw in friendly sandbagging in to the mix the results of your actions means even less.