He was talking about hippochinfat >_>
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Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise
- Thread starter Gimpyfish62
- Start date
Lol, my bad then.
We do have forum quotes for a reason though, people.
hippochinfat!!
Smash Lord
Then people have to stop saying Brawl is not competitve.
SonicLucario
Smash Journeyman
Haven't read much of this but here's my view on this.Is there anything wrong with what Sakurai wants?I mean I don't think he really wanted to be competitive at the level it's at.Can Brawl be competitive?Yes of course,anything can be competitive.However it is us the players who will shape what if any competitive scene there is for Brawl.
True, and this is my general core belief. It's a basic "give us lemons, we'll make lemonade" situation. Only this time, Sakurai gave us some pretty ****ty lemons.
What otehr reason do we need?
SurooshX
Smash Journeyman
Everytime Sakurai says "good job, everyone," a competitive players DIES!...
finalark
SNORLAX
Well I personally think that GAH! *Falls on the ground, dead.*
Uncle Fitzy
Smash Journeyman
Dibs on his Wii.
GenoBlast
Smash Ace
Hmm, I really don't understand why he would go out of his way to make this game less competitive but I think its quite obvious at this point that playing brawl competitively will be a complete and utter joke.
Honestly guys, would you actually put your money into a tournament for a game that has a "random balancing mechanic"(AKA tripping)? I certainly wouldn't. Putting tripping in this game alone is proof that he intentionally strives to lessen the competitive scene of brawl and is a smack in the face to us and our community.
In the transition from 64-Melee, he added new things, but didn't take out much at all. From Melee-Brawl, he took out a hell of a lot including mechanics that actually let the better player win. And yes, I know the game is still new and people are trying to find new "advanced techniques" but I think everyone needs to just face the facts that are right in front of them.
And last, I am confused as to why Sakauri would think a game has to be haphazard, slow, and partially based on luck to be fun. I seem to recall having a ton of fun playing Melee in and outside of its competitive circle as did a few of my none competitive friends who also played. Does he really think that competition is boring, I don't see how he could, as competition is in everything today and is the sole drive for a lot of things. Gimpy mentioned sports. Sports are incredibly competitive and are also a huge source of entertainment, thus people have fun watching and are willing to invest time and money into them. Imagine If in baseball, you wernt allowed to run, randomly tripped at least 3 times a game, and used a T-ball stand instead of a pitcher.....
There is absolutely no plausible reason why a game that involves speed, stratagy, timeing, mindgames, and control cannot be fun too.
Honestly guys, would you actually put your money into a tournament for a game that has a "random balancing mechanic"(AKA tripping)? I certainly wouldn't. Putting tripping in this game alone is proof that he intentionally strives to lessen the competitive scene of brawl and is a smack in the face to us and our community.
In the transition from 64-Melee, he added new things, but didn't take out much at all. From Melee-Brawl, he took out a hell of a lot including mechanics that actually let the better player win. And yes, I know the game is still new and people are trying to find new "advanced techniques" but I think everyone needs to just face the facts that are right in front of them.
And last, I am confused as to why Sakauri would think a game has to be haphazard, slow, and partially based on luck to be fun. I seem to recall having a ton of fun playing Melee in and outside of its competitive circle as did a few of my none competitive friends who also played. Does he really think that competition is boring, I don't see how he could, as competition is in everything today and is the sole drive for a lot of things. Gimpy mentioned sports. Sports are incredibly competitive and are also a huge source of entertainment, thus people have fun watching and are willing to invest time and money into them. Imagine If in baseball, you wernt allowed to run, randomly tripped at least 3 times a game, and used a T-ball stand instead of a pitcher.....
There is absolutely no plausible reason why a game that involves speed, stratagy, timeing, mindgames, and control cannot be fun too.
HugS
Smash Champion
-How about we let them have their cake AND eat it too?
-NO **** YOU! SAKURAI DON'T PLAY THAT ****!
-NO **** YOU! SAKURAI DON'T PLAY THAT ****!
Dx-pyrohunter64
Smash Apprentice
Well going back to the op, sakurai's vision came true I guess. =/ I don't agree with it. When I first joined this forum awhile back I had no idea about the adv techs and all that stuff but i still loved melee. Then I lurked around and found out about a whole new side of smash, showed my friends and we had FUN learning all the "new" techniques and strategies we had just found out about ^_^. I liked checking in on smashboards to see the new posts in the character specifics, watching combo videos, hoping that I'd be able to do that someday...
Now all I see are threads (not attacking this thread by the way) saying how much brawl sucks, melee>>>>brawl, brawl>>>melee, zomfg new at!!11, etc.. It's starting to annoy me =/ Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that this community was started for competitive smash. So it's funny how casual players come onto this forum and flame competitive players for playing the way competitive players play.
Also just some extra info, I never attended tournaments, I can use some adv techs in a match, I main (not mained lol that would imply past tense =P) the Doc, if I had known about tournaments earlier I would have gone and got my a** handed to me gladly, and I love all three smash games but melee is the most deserving of the title "competitive" Imo.
My two cents
/rant =P
*edit had a little trouble with some spaces lol XD
Now all I see are threads (not attacking this thread by the way) saying how much brawl sucks, melee>>>>brawl, brawl>>>melee, zomfg new at!!11, etc.. It's starting to annoy me =/ Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that this community was started for competitive smash. So it's funny how casual players come onto this forum and flame competitive players for playing the way competitive players play.
Also just some extra info, I never attended tournaments, I can use some adv techs in a match, I main (not mained lol that would imply past tense =P) the Doc, if I had known about tournaments earlier I would have gone and got my a** handed to me gladly, and I love all three smash games but melee is the most deserving of the title "competitive" Imo.
My two cents
/rant =P
*edit had a little trouble with some spaces lol XD
Captain_Falcon_93
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2007
- Messages
- 2
Here is how I see it. Sakurai saw how certain things programmed into Melee were being abused in a way different to his intention and didn't like it. He also saw how big the gap was between people who could use these techniques and those who couldn't. Therefore in an attempt to bridge that gap he simplified the game through the removal of wavedashing and l-cancelling. Whether this was the right move we shall soon find out. Personally I am sick of people whinging "WAHH WAHH i cant wavedash/l-cancel anymore WAHH WAHH" or "WAHH i tripped over WAHH". If you don't like it, don't play Brawl. NOBODY IS FORCING YOU TO PLAY SO EITHER LIVE WITH IT AND FIND A NEW WAY TO PLAY, QUIT THIS GAME AND STOP ANNOYING PEOPLE OR PLAY MELEE COMPETITIVELY AND BRAWL FOR FUN!!!! Seriously, stop flaming Sakurai, he put so much effort into the SSB games, how about a little gratitude? If you have a problem with this game, go and write a new version of the same quality.
Personally, I am sick of people whinging "WAHH WAHH I sucked so much at a good game that I will blindly follow this game for whatever it is because I don't even have to think to win WAHH WAHH" or "WAHH stop making fun of tripping, i tripped over and it saved my life that one time compared to the other 29 where it didn't WAHH".
What I did thar, did you see it?
greenblob
Smash Lord
I don't think every game can be competitive. Here's what Sirlin has to say about this:
Sirlin said:
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Mountain to climb= getting good at a game
some are stuck in a chasm before the mountain, which is scrubdom
if they can cross it, they reach either:
a) boring plateau (boring game, e.g. Brawl)
or
b) heavenly enchanted mountain (deep game, e.g. Melee)
Simple enough?
some are stuck in a chasm before the mountain, which is scrubdom
if they can cross it, they reach either:
a) boring plateau (boring game, e.g. Brawl)
or
b) heavenly enchanted mountain (deep game, e.g. Melee)
Simple enough?
Ok, yeah. I got ya... perhaps I should go to bed instead of trolling the ZZZzzzzz....
V_V
PS, there are people who get out of the canyon just to retire, what about them? Suicide from the cliffs?
Hitzel
Smash Ace
Doesn't Sakurai realize that frustrating both players playing to win is worse than the possibility of frustrating the loser?
A game like... Halo 1 was great because everything that happened was either your fault, your opponent's fault, or your teammate's fault. You never had the initial urge to blame your shortcomings on the game or on stupid circumstances, because everything had a sense of closure and fairness. And this is coming from someone who wasn't good at Halo 1 but played their heart out anyway because it's depth was just so much fun.
Now although I don't get outright angry at Brawl every game, I often find myself thinking "that's BS" at the game and stupid circumstances without any sense of closure or fairness. Those moments aren't fun and they add up to the point where I want to stop playing and do something else.
Whatever Sakurai's intentions, I feel that Brawl does NOT create rewarding feelings because my instincts tend to blame the game, not the players. Even though it's usually not true (it being the game's fault), it builds up anger in me and most everyone I know and doesn't leave anyone with an "everyone's a winner" feeling.
Now that's my casual view of Brawl. Ironically, I still have fun with Brawl treating it as a competitive game, but those reasons seem to revolve outside of the game and instead of the nature of competition itself; The only thing that keeps me from getting mad sometimes is my will to win and get better, and I know that anger is the biggest downfall to a competitive player. But despite that, I do not see myself playing Brawl a year from now.
A game like... Halo 1 was great because everything that happened was either your fault, your opponent's fault, or your teammate's fault. You never had the initial urge to blame your shortcomings on the game or on stupid circumstances, because everything had a sense of closure and fairness. And this is coming from someone who wasn't good at Halo 1 but played their heart out anyway because it's depth was just so much fun.
Now although I don't get outright angry at Brawl every game, I often find myself thinking "that's BS" at the game and stupid circumstances without any sense of closure or fairness. Those moments aren't fun and they add up to the point where I want to stop playing and do something else.
Whatever Sakurai's intentions, I feel that Brawl does NOT create rewarding feelings because my instincts tend to blame the game, not the players. Even though it's usually not true (it being the game's fault), it builds up anger in me and most everyone I know and doesn't leave anyone with an "everyone's a winner" feeling.
Now that's my casual view of Brawl. Ironically, I still have fun with Brawl treating it as a competitive game, but those reasons seem to revolve outside of the game and instead of the nature of competition itself; The only thing that keeps me from getting mad sometimes is my will to win and get better, and I know that anger is the biggest downfall to a competitive player. But despite that, I do not see myself playing Brawl a year from now.
ADHD
Smash Hero
It's too bad we won't see those **** ****ing epic battles of Isai vs Ken, and Ken going rabid, while Isai is just trying to wait for an open **** combo. It was so exciting, oh well, kiss the fun goodbye.
What I dont understand is that the game has been out a matter of months, although im not in much of a position to comment as i it si yet to come out in uk. But surely when SSBM first came out people werent doing crazyy techs in a matter of months. If we take SSBB as a completely new game and find the techs and glitches we can surely make the game just as competitive as melee?
The fans created the competitive scene not nintendo.
All of you who consider yourselves to be good smashers and who were good at brawl what is the likelyhood of you loosing to a complete noob. Play the game get better and the combos and skills will come.
The fans created the competitive scene not nintendo.
All of you who consider yourselves to be good smashers and who were good at brawl what is the likelyhood of you loosing to a complete noob. Play the game get better and the combos and skills will come.
Cookiez
Smash Ace
Lurk moar yemiD.
Almost 5 times the number of smashers are around today than there were at the start of Melee, so techs should be found faster. Additionally, players know specifically what to look for, and more importantly "HOW" to look for techniques.
Also, you seem to have no clue about a single problem most Melee players are complaining about. Surprisingly, the exclusion of Wavedashing / L-Canceling, although not liked was not the first and foremost reason people didn't like Brawl. It was the lack of hitstun and shieldstun, which no tech can change which totally swings Brawl's metagame in a campy direction.
Almost 5 times the number of smashers are around today than there were at the start of Melee, so techs should be found faster. Additionally, players know specifically what to look for, and more importantly "HOW" to look for techniques.
Also, you seem to have no clue about a single problem most Melee players are complaining about. Surprisingly, the exclusion of Wavedashing / L-Canceling, although not liked was not the first and foremost reason people didn't like Brawl. It was the lack of hitstun and shieldstun, which no tech can change which totally swings Brawl's metagame in a campy direction.
Wiseguy
Smash Champion
... in 1vs1 matches." (So people claim, anyway.)
It's worth noting that camping doesn't work too well in team matches, though.
Cookiez
Smash Ace
Oh yeah, should've added I was talking about 1v1 thanks Wiseguy.
The best chance that Brawl has of becoming competitive is if mindgames take the majority of the game's play-style. In Melee we had a few games here and then, but a good part of siezing your opponents stock was incredible speed and mad combo finishers, for the higher-tiers at least.
Because we don't have such things as speed and massive combo offence in Brawl, we'll be relying on a lot of mindgames to win. So it's not the one with the fastest fingers or the quickest reactions. It's more of a focus on who's got the more twisted games to play on the opponent. SSBB is a mental challenge, just like SSBM, but it'll have to rely much more on mental game to promote competitive playing.
Because we don't have such things as speed and massive combo offence in Brawl, we'll be relying on a lot of mindgames to win. So it's not the one with the fastest fingers or the quickest reactions. It's more of a focus on who's got the more twisted games to play on the opponent. SSBB is a mental challenge, just like SSBM, but it'll have to rely much more on mental game to promote competitive playing.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Brawl has arguably less mindgames than Melee, because you have less options to mindgame with.
Random6669
Smash Apprentice
Brawl......
Epic Fail
Sakurai has proven he is ignorant of the very thing he prides himself in making. The kind of game he dreamed of was right in front of his blind face. Melee was exactly what he wanted it to be all along, but it also became something much more. He was just too ignorant to notice it. He very selfishly destroyed the only consol game I still play. And what's more is he did it on purpose just so he could have a game he wanted to play. Didn't even consider others except noobs like himself.
Attack me if you want, defend Nintendo's failing ability to produce good games. You'll just be wasting your steam. I'll never look at this again.
Epic Fail
Sakurai has proven he is ignorant of the very thing he prides himself in making. The kind of game he dreamed of was right in front of his blind face. Melee was exactly what he wanted it to be all along, but it also became something much more. He was just too ignorant to notice it. He very selfishly destroyed the only consol game I still play. And what's more is he did it on purpose just so he could have a game he wanted to play. Didn't even consider others except noobs like himself.
Attack me if you want, defend Nintendo's failing ability to produce good games. You'll just be wasting your steam. I'll never look at this again.
True. But you never know what stuff we might discover. I personally think that tripping is a great MG.
Fantastic input. The evidence that supports your opinion astounds me.
greenblob
Smash Lord
But that's why mindgames were important in Melee. If you misread your opponent, you'll get locked in a combo. In Brawl, if you misread your opponent, well big whoop, there aren't any combos to worry about.
I'm tired of people saying "Brawl will be more mindgame-oriented" without citing any evidence.
Well that makes more sense than what i'm spewing.
What do you think Brawlers will rely on to win their games then?
Scar
#HarveyDent
@NilliX, they rely on a series of correct guesses.
Greenblob is correct in saying that in Melee, if you made a mistake or an opponent mindgamed you into a hit or grab, were he skillful enough, he would kill you for that mistake. Punishment is proportional to skill.
Greenblob is correct in saying that in Melee, if you made a mistake or an opponent mindgamed you into a hit or grab, were he skillful enough, he would kill you for that mistake. Punishment is proportional to skill.
greenblob
Smash Lord
Exactly. Brawl has no combos and therefore no punishment game. No punishment game=each mindgame victory is worth very little.
Melee has, and most likely always will have more "mind games" than brawl.
There is a punishment game. It's just not the same as Melee's punishment game. The punishment game in Brawl is that if your opponent can continuously predict your moves you won't be able to stop him from camping or controlling the field. This means that you will not be able to touch him or even kill him. There is skill involved in Brawl. If you weaken your opponent enough there is a point where you have to approach in order to finish your target off but then there's the fact that approaching puts you at a disadvantage. However, if you're good enough, it won't matter. You can take your opponent out relatively easily.
greenblob
Smash Lord
See, there are a few problems with your reasoning:
1. You can do that in Melee
2. Constant prediction is not exactly punishment. It's just adding up the little amounts of punishment that you get from each time you read your opponent correctly.
1. You can do that in Melee
2. Constant prediction is not exactly punishment. It's just adding up the little amounts of punishment that you get from each time you read your opponent correctly.
Except the match isn't reset with each blow in Melee. This is what makes Brawl different and require different skills. Plus defense is nowhere near as dominant in Melee as it is in Brawl. That's correct that in melee if you predict your opponent twice you could pretty much take away his life. In Brawl you have to do it more often and just as cosistently. During this entire time your opponent might even come up with a strategy or get your pattern since the matches last so long and turn it around.
No.
Almost all but 2 characters in the game are pretty much the same in terms of tier, or at least closely related in tournament viable settings. It's not about counterpicks, the slower game means you're going to have to play SMART this time around, minus the factors in Melee.
Melee had a different depth like there were many things you had in addition to playing smart. It's a different ballgame with Brawl. Where many games and the smash community are expecting to pick up where they left off and add to it, while other games like Brawl sorta alienated that by changing it entirely.
In the end it's going to be the "community" makes this game "competitive", it's going to be the players who will discover the depth within the game and so and so and so and so. If they want Brawl to be competitive like melee then they're first starting wrong, but anyway I don't care that much.