Sakurai and his own Kirby bias

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I'm pretty sure that Hypernova and the Robobot Armor were well received as they add to the gameplay on another level. Friend pedestals on the other hand are a detriment because they take away control from you.

I doubt that stuff like that was forced on the developers by Nintendo, but it was a decision made by the developers.
As far as I know, most people hated hypernova and it's often called "cutscene" because you just press a button and stuff happens automatically. Personally, Triple Deluxe is my favorite modern game and I have no problem with that, but I know that Hypernova is commonly hated by a big part of the fanbase.
And yes, I was generalizing by saying "everyone", but I have read many criticism toward all of those gimmicks over the years. Some people may like some of them and dislike others, but they have an overall mixed reception.

I think I have read something about the gimmicks being added for advertising reasons in the past, but since I can't find it now I can't prove that.

While I kind of understand the first point, second and third points seem arbitrary and silly.
I continue to think that's silly to criticize something that's purely personal tastes.

I don't like that stuff, I don't need to explain why (though I did it anyway).
I liked the menu in Meteos because it was simple. Also, it allowed you to move the buttons freely and that was a cool experimental feature similar to how Melee let you move the camera with the C stick. Though that style of menues got old very fast for me, I'm just tired of seeing them. Kirby kinda use similar menues at times, but I like those better for some reason, probably simplicity is the key factor, or those fancy icons, I don't know.


And you are making a stretch by comparing Sakurai design choices to RPG elements. At least this doesn't apply to Superstar, except for that one boss fight.
No, in fact it wasn't refered to Superstar. There are many factors that make me think he likes RPGs more than platformers. One of those is the amount of effort he and his team put into representing RPG series compared to platforming series in Smash (especially the not-mario ones).
Also, I remember that he stated several times that he played and enjoyed RPG games. Part of that may be for marketing (I enjoyed Persona, Joker is the next DLC, he's cool), but I think he also just likes RPGs in general, at least it seems so to me. Can't say the same about platformers though.
I said this is all speculation because it is, I'm not sure unless someone asked to him personally.

You can't call your post 'evidence' when you are admitting right off the bat that it is speculation.
Yes I can, because evidence is no proof, evidence is just what I'm basing my speculation on, and it means something that's apparent, not a fact.
Speculation itself is theory built on evidence.

And fun fact about Uprising is that Sakurai probably wasn't the one who came up with idea to turn the game into a shooter/hack&slash hybrid because Nintendo originally contracted Factor 5 to work on a Kid Icarus revival. That's right, the guys who made a bunch Star Wars shooting games were initially called to handle the franchise and they tossed around a lot of ideas that were more radical than what Sora came up with. Several Factor 5 games have flight combat similar to the one found in Uprising. It didn't get past the prototype stage.
The project was later handed to Sakurai, and you can definitely see that some of those ideas from Factor 5 made it in.
That's the version I knew

In 2008, there were rumors of a three-dimensional Kid Icarus game for the Wii that was allegedly developed by the German American studio Factor 5.[51] However, the title was said to be in production without the approval of Nintendo, and Factor 5 cancelled multiple projects following the closure of its American branch in early 2009.
I knew that they wanted to work on Kid Icarus and sent some concepts to Nintendo, but Nintendo refused to approve those. I don't know which version is the most accurate, but I remember this version from when the news came out many years ago.
 
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I don't like that stuff, I don't need to explain why (though I did it anyway).
I liked the menu in Meteos because it was simple. Also, it allowed you to move the buttons freely and that was a cool experimental feature similar to how Melee let you move the camera with the C stick. Though that style of menues got old very fast for me, I'm just tired of seeing them. Kirby kinda use similar menues at times, but I like those better for some reason, probably simplicity is the key factor, or those fancy icons, I don't know.
Umm... what do you even mean. I’m sorry, but I don’t see what sets the Sakurai title main menus apart from Meteos with the exception of the original Super Star and Smash Wii U. Everything in his games are perfectly organized into categories just like Meteos, especially in Brawl which had a very lined up design in comparison to Meteos’s everything all over the place instead of lined up. Even if you feel that the style has now become overused, that shouldn’t hurt Ultimate as the design was changed for portability purposes and now has huge icons that nicely organize everything. I also don’t get what you mean by the free button motions, I understand that you could move the camera in Melee, but was that really a big feature that would make or break a menu. It ultimately did nothing, so why have it.

No, in fact it wasn't refered to Superstar. There are many factors that make me think he likes RPGs more than platformers. One of those is the amount of effort he and his team put into representing RPG series compared to platforming series in Smash (especially the not-mario ones).
Also, I remember that he stated several times that he played and enjoyed RPG games. Part of that may be for marketing (I enjoyed Persona, Joker is the next DLC, he's cool), but I think he also just likes RPGs in general, at least it seems so to me. Can't say the same about platformers though.
I said this is all speculation because it is, I'm not sure unless someone asked to him personally.
Ummm.... This is just wrong, there are way more platform characters in smash than rpgs. I mean there are really only like three Nintendo rpgs in Smash as we have Pokemon, Xenoblade, and Mother. With the exception of Pokemon, which duh it’d have a ton of characters being the most recognizable brand in the world, the others just have 1-2 characters. Also, before you say it, no, Fire Emblem is not an RPG, it is a tactics game and the only game in Smash with that genre. Even if we were to compare 3rd party as you seem to want to, there would still be an imbalance in favor of platformers as we only have 2, 3 if Erdrik comes, compared to the four platformers held between Castlevania, Mega Man, Sonic, and Pac-Man.

Also, not to burst your bubble, but Castlevania is probably one of the best represented 3rd parties in Smash and that is a platformer.

Also what’s wrong with him liking RPGs, I may not be the biggest fan, but they do add quite a bit of variety to Smash and have their place. Mother is probably one of the most loved series in Smash, Pokemon is chalk full of interesting designs, and Xenoblade was a hidden gem on the Wii that most were very happy to see. Even 3rd parties are great as Joker will bring a very unique style to Smash, and Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest are pretty well known names in the gaming landscape to deserve representation.
 
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Also what’s wrong with him liking RPGs.
Absolutely nothing, that's not my point. It's just a matter of preference.

Anyway, series such as Donkey Kong and Wario (Land) are very underrepresented (aside of K Rool, that was added only because the fans made a big noise).

Kirby is represented but, in a questionable way, and this is the whole point of this thread... and even Mario has its problems, like how Toad is still not in, and there isn't even a Bowser Castle level, most of the Mario stages are world 1-1 like environments.

Not to mention the discussion about the jump mechanics, and the fact that platforming challenges such as break the target, board the platform, and platforming in adventure modes are being slowly removed (unless 3.0 brings some of them back).

I just think that Sakurai prefering other genres over platformers may influence his decisions and may translate to less platformer-related content into his games.
That's why I'm concerned about that (as a fan of platformers in general).
 
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Absolutely nothing, that's not my point. It's just a matter of preference.

Anyway, series such as Donkey Kong and Wario (Land) are very underrepresented (aside of K Rool, that was added only because the fans made a big noise).

Kirby is represented but, in a questionable way, and this is the whole point of this thread... and even Mario has its problems, like how Toad is still not in, and there isn't even a Bowser Castle level, most of the Mario stages are world 1-1 like environments.

Not to mention the discussion about the jump mechanics, and the fact that platforming challenges such as break the target, board the platform, and platforming in adventure modes are being slowly removed (unless 3.0 brings some of them back).

I just think that Sakurai prefering other genres over platformers may influence his decisions and may translate to less platformer-related content into his games.
That's why I'm concerned about that (as a fan of platformers in general).
To be fair, there’s good reason for all these things.

The lack of DK and Wario I feel are more Nintendo’s fault than Sakurai as Nintendo clearly replaced Wario Land with the WarioWare franchise. DK has been a mismanaged series for years since Rare left, so many characters excluding DK and Diddy had minor appearances and were rarely seen as big characters. I mean, K Rool himself took a 10 year absence since a Mario spin off, that should tell you how much of a priority K Rool was to Nintendo. Ultimately, Sakurai is just following Nintendo as they were the ones who really broke these two platforming series, Sakurai just stayed up to date.

As for the levels, I think we have the ones we do as to not spoil titles. Many of the games Smash creates stages for are modern, so Sakurai doesn’t want to risk spoiling the games for anyone, so he picks very early or advertisement heavy locations. That’s why you never see a Bowser’s castle, it may spoil a Mario title that is only a few years old as stupid as spoiling a Mario game sounds.

As for Toad not being in, I think it comes down to there not being much to work with. Until Captain Toad, Toad was always just another version of Mario or a shop keeper/ hostage. There really wasn’t much to work with and since Toad was kind of a generic NPC, I don’t think Sakurai felt the need to include him over more prominent Mario characters like Rosalina or Bowser Jr. Now a days, it is a little different since obviously Captain Toad and Toadette are very prominent and very distinct characters, but they probably didn’t make it as a result of Ultimate’s focus. Had Ultimate not brought every character back and focus on big fan requests, many agree that characters like Captain Toad or Bandana Waddle Dee would have made it, but Ultimate had different priorities and thus characters like them got left out.

As for the Smash modes, they still might be coming. There have been rumors and data mines showing that there were more platforming stages. A big leak even said that there was more stuff, but the testing team was behind, so Nintendo released the game without everything being complete, hoping to add it later. This rumor isn’t too odd as they did release content after the release of Kirby and Aces as those titles were clearly incomplete as well.
 

Mogisthelioma

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As far as I know, most people hated hypernova and it's often called "cutscene" because you just press a button and stuff happens automatically.
but I know that Hypernova is commonly hated by a big part of the fanbase.
Source? Did you conduct a poll and did the results show a general disliking of Hypernova, or did you just read comments on the internet?
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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I continue to think that's silly to criticize something that's purely personal tastes.
I don't think that. People aren't infallible. You are not perfect and neither am I.

If a viewpoint is contentious for very good reasons, others are free to call them out on that. Pointing out that arguing against a viewpoint is disrespectful is silly, because people use that as an excuse to shield indefendible beliefs.

Example time!
If I say,
-"I like chocolate ice cream more than vanilla", it would be silly to argue against this, because that is not a case of being right nor wrong but just leaning towards a preference.

But if say,
-"Game controllers are stupid and the whole industry should switch over to using touch pads exclusively", I would rightfully called out on that because I'm dissing on a convention that has proven itself to work well among players and designers, and there is the objective fact that for several forms of gameplay a controller is deemed superior over the touchpad.

Now, for far more extreme examples, I think that not every belief deserves to be respected.

I don't like that stuff, I don't need to explain why (though I did it anyway).
I liked the menu in Meteos because it was simple. Also, it allowed you to move the buttons freely and that was a cool experimental feature similar to how Melee let you move the camera with the C stick. Though that style of menues got old very fast for me, I'm just tired of seeing them. Kirby kinda use similar menues at times, but I like those better for some reason, probably simplicity is the key factor, or those fancy icons, I don't know.
Well, your initial sentiment was that they were "horrible and confusing menus" and that they were part of Sakurai's terrible design philosophies. This wasn't simply leaning towards a preference but it was inaccurately disregarding a valid design choice from an aesthetic and functional point of view. Instead, if you decided to say "I simply don't like them", we would just have saved ourselves the trouble.

Still, most menus in the video game history are a simple list that prompts the player to scroll up and down. Sakurai's menus are a refreshing take on that, so I'm puzzled as to how someone can get fed up with them at this point, when it's just a handful of games among millions. Wouldn't it be the other way around?
The irony of liking the Kirby menus over the Smash ones isn't lost in me either, when they are both similar in their simplicity, aesthetics and functionality.

No, in fact it wasn't refered to Superstar. There are many factors that make me think he likes RPGs more than platformers. One of those is the amount of effort he and his team put into representing RPG series compared to platforming series in Smash (especially the not-mario ones).
Also, I remember that he stated several times that he played and enjoyed RPG games. Part of that may be for marketing (I enjoyed Persona, Joker is the next DLC, he's cool), but I think he also just likes RPGs in general, at least it seems so to me. Can't say the same about platformers though.
I said this is all speculation because it is, I'm not sure unless someone asked to him personally.
That was... quite a turnaround. You went from discussing game design with RPG-like elements to roster additions and series representation. You can't blame us for being confused here since you are sending us mixed signals. You pretty much shifted the parameters of your post to convey a different idea.

I'll just say, yes, he likes RPGs like Fire Emblem.
But his games don't have that many design elements from RPGs.
Btw, Sakurai liked playing King of Fighters 95. There is a story about him wrecking a non-gamer couple at the arcade on that game. Do you know what this means?
Kyo Kusanagi is coming to Smash, baby!

That's the version I knew
Cool. I like Uprising better.
And it's good that they ended up doing something rather than leaving the series dead.
 
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I'll just say, yes, he likes RPGs like Fire Emblem.
Umm, technically Fire Emblem isn’t an RPG as it lacks the turn based battles. It is considered a tactics games, so even if he was complaining about FE, it wouldn’t count towards Sakurai being biased towards RPGs.
 
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Well, your initial sentiment was that they were "horrible and confusing menus" and that they were part of Sakurai's terrible design philosophies. This wasn't simply leaning towards a preference but it was inaccurately disregarding a valid design choice from an aesthetic and functional point of view. Instead, if you decided to say "I simply don't like them", we would just have saved ourselves the trouble.
I have nothing to add about the rest, but this is a bit inaccurate.

I think I specified that I dislike Sakurai's design philosopies, and I personally do.
Maybe I used some aggressive words, but I think I put enough emphasys on the word "dislike" more than once.

Keep in mind that the post you are refering to was written after reading that post of yours where you said all those nice things of me, and I was furious.
 

Mogisthelioma

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Umm, technically Fire Emblem isn’t an RPG as it lacks the turn based battles. It is considered a tactics games, so even if he was complaining about FE, it wouldn’t count towards Sakurai being biased towards RPGs.
It's more of a mix between an RPG (having different characters with different abilities) and turn-based strategy (for obvious reasons), but leaning more on the TBS side.
 
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