Sakurai and his own Kirby bias

[Otoad64]

And Galacta Knight is too small to be a boss in Smash.

Marx is about the same size, besides what works as a boss in kirby works as a boss in smash imo

As I said here, we're a bit short on characters that are BOTH iconic and have potential for uniqueness, at least on the first party side. It makes it hard to justify adding further characters to existing series in Smash.

hard disagree, many iconic first party characters from existing series are both important and unique

 

[Quillion]

Marx is about the same size, besides what works as a boss in kirby works as a boss in smash imo

Marx grows in size to become his boss form though. Galacta Knight never does the same when he's a boss.

hard disagree, many iconic first party characters from existing series are both important and unique

Who are they? Impa is recurring, but boring. Skull Kid is exciting, but a one shot. Captain Toad is recurring, but boring. Geno is exciting, but a one shot. Bandana Dee is recurring, but boring. Marx is exciting, but a one shot (Star Allies aside).

 

[Doc Monocle]

I'm really tired of it honestly, the games still great but as a Kirby fan it's painful to see just how unbalanced it's representation is. Every significant comes from the same 3 games. The lack of modern representation is tiring.


Every stage
All 3 assist trophy
The boss

Even the closest to a modern remix is for a game over ten years old.


Kirby is doing better than ever and just concluded a wonderful era, but you'd hardly know it looking at Smash, everything modern is just small things like ported songs, some spirits and a couple of colours. The most significant thing modern Kirby has gotten was the final smashes.


Even if a character is too much to ask for regarding Bandana Dee, we couldn't even get a stage. I know an Epic Yarn stage was "planned" but why when it was decided that it would become Woolly World did you decide to make Great Cave Offensive? Really?

Even Spirit Battles, I only remember encountering Mage Sisters, Susie and Magolor


At this point, the only part of Kirby Super Star that Sakurai hasn't included a major reference too was Dyna blade.


Surely it's not too much to ask for a stage from the modern era is it? Smash Wii U gave a modern stage to every franchise with a modern game except for Kirby. It's just absurd at this point.

Maybe Sakurai is biased, but I would not blame him. Perhaps he sees something in his games that gets lost with future installments. I would not know since I have not played any modern Kirby games, but I can respect that someone would do their best to preserve what they value in the classics designed by them and remembered as their brain-children. Besides, they are CLASSICS. What if he does not want the 'feel' or 'touch' offered by the current and past representation to be overpowered by the demands of a constantly evolving fanbase?

That aside, I understand your point of view. I can easily see someone wanting content that does not necessarily hail from the < satisfying-bit days.

 

[Otoad64]

Marx grows in size to become his boss form though. Galacta Knight never does the same when he's a boss.



Who are they? Impa is recurring, but boring. Skull Kid is exciting, but a one shot. Captain Toad is recurring, but boring. Geno is exciting, but a one shot. Bandana Dee is recurring, but boring. Marx is exciting, but a one shot (Star Allies aside).

you see, I guess the problem is I don't find impa,toad or bandana dee boring

 

[Quillion]

you see, I guess the problem is I don't find impa,toad or bandana dee boring

Why though?

• There is nothing Impa can feasibly do that isn't already covered by Sheik and Greninja.
• Toad can only have a nonsensical mishmash of spin-off elements, the same problem with Waluigi.
• Bandana Dee is a basic spear wielder, and any additions to his moveset wouldn't fit his character.

 

[Koopaul]

Did someone in this thread list all modern Kirby content in Ultimate? And by "Modern Kirby" I assume you mean games after Air Ride? Well here's what I found for post-Air Ride Kirby references and content.

2 Final Smashes
2 Alts
16 Spirits
15 Songs

Yeah it's not much. But it's not nothing.

 

[Lenidem]

Marx grows in size to become his boss form though. Galacta Knight never does the same when he's a boss.



Who are they? Impa is recurring, but boring. Skull Kid is exciting, but a one shot. Captain Toad is recurring, but boring. Geno is exciting, but a one shot. Bandana Dee is recurring, but boring. Marx is exciting, but a one shot (Star Allies aside).

Calling characters "boring" is not exactly an objective statement... And Skull Kid is technically not a one-shot.

 

[Oracle Link]

Marx grows in size to become his boss form though. Galacta Knight never does the same when he's a boss.



Who are they? Impa is recurring, but boring. Skull Kid is exciting, but a one shot. Captain Toad is recurring, but boring. Geno is exciting, but a one shot. Bandana Dee is recurring, but boring. Marx is exciting, but a one shot (Star Allies aside).

Im sorry but i have to disagree with most of your points
1st. Dont say Bandana Dee is boring Kirby is full with the most Interesting Characters ever Bandana Dee may not be the Kirby Character with the best Abilitys but were talking about Kirby it has Bees, Clockworkstars etc. for most other Franchises he would be one of the most interesting
2nd. Galacta Knight is Similar to Metaknight he really isnt that Unique i mean he has a lance and Shield and most of his Crazy Abilitys need to get nerfed (Kirby fighters 2)
3rd. The most important (possible villan rep) is Darkmatter Galacta Knight is only featured in Side Modes
4th. Most People want BWD if you diminish his chances then the Chances for a 4th Kirby rep sink drasticly
5th. i still like Galacta Knight but you should really try to settle for being the 5th Rep i mean Dark Matter will probably never get in (altough he really should) does this make me mad NOOOO but what makes me mad is that BWD a Character with no Drawbacks gets diminshed by Everybody

New 6th. the best thing in this moment for you is to just be quite belive me i know in situations like these you cant win

 

[Otoad64]

Why though?

• There is nothing Impa can feasibly do that isn't already covered by Sheik and Greninja.
• Toad can only have a nonsensical mishmash of spin-off elements, the same problem with Waluigi.
• Bandana Dee is a basic spear wielder, and any additions to his moveset wouldn't fit his character.

Toad can use various power ups, an aspect of the mario series ignored besides the fire flower and cape, and what's wrong with a mismash of spinoff elements? that's the opposite of a problem!

most small characters aren't very ranged, bandana dee would be, a spear isn't the same as a sword. he can also throw it and use it like a helicopter. also it would "fit his character" to use a parasol, he uses one in battle royale. and him using the beam wand makes about as much sense as ness using pk thunder.

as for impa, I feel like she's probably the least unique of the three, but the versions of her in hyrule warriors and AoC would be far more unique

 

[Koopaul]

So yeah. I did skim through this topic. As far as I can tell people mostly focus on Fighters, Stages, and the Boss Marx. There is very little discussion about the other content.

I think it is worth noting that Kirby and Dedede's Final Smash were changed into something from Modern Kirby titles. And two of Meta Knight's alts reference Galacta Knight and Dark Meta Knight.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

So yeah. I did skim through this topic. As far as I can tell people mostly focus on Fighters, Stages, and the Boss Marx. There is very little discussion about the other content.

I think it is worth noting that Kirby and Dedede's Final Smash were changed into something from Modern Kirby titles. And two of Meta Knight's alts reference Galacta Knight and Dark Meta Knight.

I would argue the Assists are also an issue, albeit not originally as big of one during Ultimate's first rounds, mostly due to Kawasaki. He was given similar abilities in Star Allies to his assist in Smash, so for a while he was dismissed as a relevant reference, even if it was most likely a coincidence.

The other two, not so much. Knuckle Joe being the only Kirby assist in 2008 raised a couple eyebrows; although present in the anime of a few years prior, he was only otherwise present in one game. Nightmare Wizard much more so since, in addition to his effect being useless, he shared a similar problem with Knuckle Joe without the immediate argument of the anime's relevance to back him up on. Granted, Nightmare Wizard did bag some other appearances in between the anime and Smash 4, but his last appearance then was Mass Attack, a game that preceded Return to Dreamland, which sparked the relaunch into the modern era of Kirby.

And those are the only three Kirby assists we've ever got. No Animal Friends, no Ado, no other iconic characters or enemies, just three Sakurai-era foes that all happen to share anime involvement. Zelda is in a similar bind to Kirby fighter-wise, but that franchise also got the exact amount of new assists in Smash 4 as Kirby did in all of Smash's lifespan. All of which were varied fan favorites from across the eras... so while I get the Zelda fandom's pain, it's a much more shallow look for Kirby by comparison.

 

[Koopaul]

I think it's worth noting that it makes sense Sakurai would design for things he's more familiar with. He doesn't seem unwilling to put in Modern Kirby content it's just that he is more familiar with the Kirby games he worked on. Thus it's easier to come up with ideas for stages and Assist trophies and bosses etc.

 

[Otoad64]

I think it's worth noting that it makes sense Sakurai would design for things he's more familiar with. He doesn't seem unwilling to put in Modern Kirby content it's just that he is more familiar with the Kirby games he worked on. Thus it's easier to come up with ideas for stages and Assist trophies and bosses etc.

I don't think that's a good justification, he didn't work on any mario games but he put in lots of mario content, how does he come up with ideas for mario assists? or assists for any franchise he didn't work on?

 

[Koopaul]

I don't think that's a good justification, he didn't work on any mario games but he put in lots of mario content, how does he come up with ideas for mario assists? or assists for any franchise he didn't work on?

Notice that he always puts the most basic of things as Assist Trophies for these series. Something that many have had experience if they play video games. Mario often has the first level for it's stage or a very obvious and famous location. Donkey Kong always has a jungle of some sort. These are very surface level things.

But then you look at, say, Kid Icarus. He has items and Assists that are not something that seen within the first few moments of the game. It's because he has a deeper knowledge of the game he made and is able to dig deeper than other series.

So I ask you. What if you were tasked to make items, Assists, and stages for a series you aren't very familiar with? I'm sure, like anyone, you would play a little bit of those games to get a good idea of what to put in. But, you don't have enough time to play the entire series or play every game to completion. You're very busy.

 

[Otoad64]

Notice that he always puts the most basic of things as Assist Trophies for these series. Something that many have had experience if they play video games. Mario often has the first level for it's stage or a very obvious and famous location. Donkey Kong always has a jungle of some sort. These are very surface level things.

But then you look at, say, Kid Icarus. He has items and Assists that are not something that seen within the first few moments of the game. It's because he has a deeper knowledge of the game he made and is able to dig deeper than other series.

So I ask you. What if you were tasked to make items, Assists, and stages for a series you aren't very familiar with? I'm sure, like anyone, you would play a little bit of those games to get a good idea of what to put in. But, you don't have enough time to play the entire series or play every game to completion. You're very busy.

I get what you mean, but I would personally do research other than just playing the game, and even then he could at least put in an early stage from a modern kirby like cookie country or something

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

I personally theorize he's jealous or in denial and is adopting the attitude of a possessive control freak.

He has made it clear he quit Kirby cuz he hates making sequels (yet continues to do exactly that with Smash anyway) and like OP says, Kirby is doing better than ever without him. That would probably motivate to not acknowledge the parts of the series he didn't make.

I can't prove that outright unfortunately. Like I said, it's just a theory. For all I know, he probably just thinks it's the best way to represent Kirby.

 

[Koopaul]

This theory is disproven by the fact that there IS modern Kirby content. He even replaced Cook Kirby Final Smash with the Ultra Sword from Returns to Dream Land. If Sakurai hated those games he would never do such a thing.

I get what you mean, but I would personally do research other than just playing the game, and even then he could at least put in an early stage from a modern kirby like cookie country or something

It's not that simple. Sakurai, these days, wants all the stages to have something special. Some sort of gimmick. Ideas have to call to him in some creative way. He won't put something in just to check something off the list. "Hmm, I don't have any stages from recent Kirby games. Better choose something. Better check that off the list." It doesn't work like that.

 

[NintenRob]

This thread always seems to get resurrected at least once or twice a year.


Even if we get some modern content. We don't get much. The final smashes are appreciated. But when I think Modern Kirby, I usually think return to Dreamland onwards. Of which there is no remixes, and there's like only one spirit per game. Despite being the most recent games in the franchise, planet robobot and star allies got a total of 3 ported songs and 2 spirits. Even what gets classified as a legendary spirits skews more towards what Sakurai develops.


Although strangely, Squeak Squad of all games seem to have avoid a lot of this. Getting its own remix in Brawl and a legendary spirit in Ultimate. The Squeak Squad remix actually holds the title of the most modern song to get a remix. I do love some Squeak Squad so I don't mind.

 

[Oracle Link]

I think it's worth noting that it makes sense Sakurai would design for things he's more familiar with. He doesn't seem unwilling to put in Modern Kirby content it's just that he is more familiar with the Kirby games he worked on. Thus it's easier to come up with ideas for stages and Assist trophies and bosses etc.

This would be like for example someone who only worked on Super Mario land 1-3 is in Charge of Mario and we get
Mario,Daisy,Wario,Tatanga,Syrup,Pirate Goom, Luigi, Pakkun and Bowser as Mario Reps This Cloud Guy, Sphinx and this Koopa Knockoff as ATs and 20 Mario Land Remixes and 30 Mario Rips from other games
and People would say he just does what he knows
Bandana Waddle Dee, Dark Matter, Magolor are Pretty much Kirby Mainstays this would be like not knowing who Peach is!

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

Notice that he always puts the most basic of things as Assist Trophies for these series. Something that many have had experience if they play video games. Mario often has the first level for it's stage or a very obvious and famous location. Donkey Kong always has a jungle of some sort. These are very surface level things.

But then you look at, say, Kid Icarus. He has items and Assists that are not something that seen within the first few moments of the game. It's because he has a deeper knowledge of the game he made and is able to dig deeper than other series.

So I ask you. What if you were tasked to make items, Assists, and stages for a series you aren't very familiar with? I'm sure, like anyone, you would play a little bit of those games to get a good idea of what to put in. But, you don't have enough time to play the entire series or play every game to completion. You're very busy.

If you still want to believe he does everything in the game, then how do you explain a lot of this? ("They snuck them in when he wasn't looking!!" Yeeeeah, no)

And that's fine, because in terms of modes, spirits are pretty much all Ultimate has going for it. It's all they ever talk about.

And nobody ever said he was unfamiliar with the other Kirby games. I saw he has Triple Deluxe* in his 3DS game collection, and I'm sure there's more where that came from. Hell, even Melee had trophies of Rick and Gooey, and Smash Wii U had some for Magolor, Lor Starcutter, and Galacta Knight.

*I remember back before Smash 4 came out, Dedede was revealed in it because of this game coming out at the time.

Better yet, does anyone on the current Kirby team say anything about it in Smash, or weigh in on it in any manner? Maybe they should be held responsible for not nutting up and speaking up about it. Or someone should ask them about it.

He has made it clear he quit Kirby cuz he hates making sequels

Actually, no.

Most of the major landmarks in the Kirby franchise are located in the old games. Kirby Fighters is a good example of this, almost ALL of the stages in that game come from the old Kirby games.

Yeah, I noticed this too. Even in Kirby Fighters 2, a lot of the stages here are more geared towards the earlier installments. Sure, there are some stages from the newer games here and there, but the amount of ones from earlier Kirby games outweigh it a lot more, and that is pretty telling. (One of the new stages in KF2 was based on Gourmet Race. I was so not surprised)

Also know that even in the Kirby series itself to this day (and other such related media), this Super Star/Ultra shilling happens a lot and will never die anytime soon.

But more than anything, I feel bad for Kracko. The other most prolific, long-standing boss in the series next to Whispy Woods, and all he gets is a trophy in Brawl and spirit in Ultimate (that battle was on point though!). Honestly surprised he wasn't an AT. In fact, I'd be okay with a Bubbly Clouds stage if it meant he were a prominent hazard there. (Kirby Fighters has this too, to the surprise of nobody)

 

[Oracle Link]

If you still want to believe he does everything in the game, then how do you explain a lot of this? ("They snuck them in when he wasn't looking!!" Yeeeeah, no)

And that's fine, because in terms of modes, spirits are pretty much all Ultimate has going for it. It's all they ever talk about.

And nobody ever said he was unfamiliar with the other Kirby games. I saw he has Triple Deluxe* in his 3DS game collection, and I'm sure there's more where that came from. Hell, even Melee had trophies of Rick and Gooey, and Smash Wii U had some for Magolor, Lor Starcutter, and Galacta Knight.

*I remember back before Smash 4 came out, Dedede was revealed in it because of this game coming out at the time.

Better yet, does anyone on the current Kirby team say anything about it in Smash, or weigh in on it in any manner? Maybe they should be held responsible for not nutting up and speaking up about it. Or someone should ask them about it.


Actually, no.


Yeah, I noticed this too. Even in Kirby Fighters 2, a lot of the stages here are more geared towards the earlier installments. Sure, there are some stages from the newer games here and there, but the amount of ones from earlier Kirby games outweigh it a lot more, and that is pretty telling. (One of the new stages in KF2 was based on Gourmet Race. I was so not surprised)

Also know that even in the Kirby series itself to this day (and other such related media), this Super Star/Ultra shilling happens a lot and will never die anytime soon.

But more than anything, I feel bad for Kracko. The other most prolific, long-standing boss in the series next to Whispy Woods, and all he gets is a trophy in Brawl and spirit in Ultimate (that battle was on point though!). Honestly surprised he wasn't an AT. In fact, I'd be okay with a Bubbly Clouds stage if it meant he were a prominent hazard there. (Kirby Fighters has this too, to the surprise of nobody)

Ok interesting let me give my 2 cents about it:

Sakurai doesnt do everything!
Yeah thats 100% true BUT he gets the Positive Credit for Everything so as long as we dont get Personal he should also get the Negative credit!

Kirby fighters situation (ok im just doing my research wait a minute! ...... Done)
So yeah tere are more old than new stages but a lot of Old stages are from Dreamlan2+3 and 64 Games that are underepresented in Smash also Green Greens isnt even a Stage (its the new Version of Green Grens in star allies) and outide of the Halberd, Whispy, Dark matter and Another Dimension Stages there is not much missing (and lets be honest Halberd doesnt really count as superstar anymore right?)

Kracko
Yep i 99% agree he really got the short end of the Stick and i dont count him as "Sakurai Kirby" hes more "Kirby Mainstay" but lets be honest He could litterally appear anywhere From his stage in Triple Deluxe to his Universal Counterpart Twin Kracko (although i think we should use Main Kracko)

Also we should work on a list of Kirby Mainstays after all not everything that Debuted in Sakurai Kirby should be put on the same pedastal!

 

[Quillion]

I agree that Smash has already covered most of Kirby's major landmarks, save for maybe Castle Dedede.

I think Kirby could use another character though, but we're stuck with characters that are recurring-but-uninteresting (Bandana Dee, Galacta Knight) or interesting one-shots (pretty much everyone else). Not a very ideal pool, and Kirby could become the next Fire Emblem by pulling from it; best that it sticks with what it has.

 

[Oracle Link]

I wonder if people finnaly start seeing the own sakurai Bias now that forgotten land is a thing?

 

[Quillion]

Forgotten Land looks like a 2D Kirby game with 3D tacked on ngl.

There doesn't seem to be any meaningful structural or mechanical changes to adapt the game to 3D.

 

[Oracle Link]

Forgotten Land looks like a 2D Kirby game with 3D tacked on ngl.

There doesn't seem to be any meaningful structural or mechanical changes to adapt the game to 3D.

And what changes should that be? Afterall kirbys core gameplay is near perfection!

 

[Quillion]

And what changes should that be? Afterall kirbys core gameplay is near perfection!

More movement options, more combo-heavy gameplay, mini-sandbox levels as opposed to linear levels...

 

[Oracle Link]

More movement options, more combo-heavy gameplay, mini-sandbox levels as opposed to linear levels...

I mean the 2d kirbys already have a lot of Combos for 2d Plattformers? And you can fly, dash and use mobility abilitys like wing the only thing you said that makes sense is the mini sandbox thing!

 

[Quillion]

I mean the 2d kirbys already have a lot of Combos for 2d Plattformers? And you can fly, dash and use mobility abilitys like wing the only thing you said that makes sense is the mini sandbox thing!

Running is the only movement option that will work in 3D. They will need to introduce a lot of new ones since sliding and flying won't work and will break the game respectively.

There's a reason why Mario 64 added so many movement options and changed the level structure to mini-sandboxes. Kirby not doing either will set up everyone for disappointment.

 

[NintenRob]

We've already seen a new movement option with that back dodge.

 

[Mamboo07]

We've already seen a new movement option with that back dodge.

Kirb backflip

 

[Quillion]

We've already seen a new movement option with that back dodge.

Kirb backflip

How does that compare to Mario's long jump, triple jump, spin jump, ground pound, side flip, etc..?

 

[NintenRob]

How does that compare to Mario's long jump, triple jump, spin jump, ground pound, side flip, etc..?

Jesus christ dude, we've had one trailer, it's not like we know every tiny detail of the game. Stop being such a negative nancy in every single thread you're in.

And Kirby naturally gains more movement options through copy abilities, we see this with needle.

 

[Quillion]

Jesus christ dude, we've had one trailer, it's not like we know every tiny detail of the game. Stop being such a negative nancy in every single thread you're in.

And Kirby naturally gains more movement options through copy abilities, we see this with needle.

Look, how would you feel if the only route Mario took with 3D was the 3D Land/World approach? It's exactly what Kirby seems to be doing.

 

[NintenRob]

Look, how would you feel if the only route Mario took with 3D was the 3D Land/World approach? It's exactly what Kirby seems to be doing.

You have no evidence of that. The games not even out yet. Yes, it appears more faithful to 2D Kirby then Mario 64, to 2D Mario.

But it's not a valid comparison, because 2D Kirby has evolved in it's own right compared to it's early years. Kirbys copy abilities grant him loads of movement options. Like Swords rising slash, wheel in general, Wing and it's flying, surfing with water, vanishing with Ninja, the hurricane kicks with Fighter. Yes, Kirbys base form is simple, NEWS FLASH, it's supposed to be, because all that extra stuff you want are included in the copy abilities.

 

[Quillion]

You have no evidence of that. The games not even out yet. Yes, it appears more faithful to 2D Kirby then Mario 64, to 2D Mario.

But it's not a valid comparison, because 2D Kirby has evolved in it's own right compared to it's early years. Kirbys copy abilities grant him loads of movement options. Like Swords rising slash, wheel in general, Wing and it's flying, surfing with water, vanishing with Ninja, the hurricane kicks with Fighter. Yes, Kirbys base form is simple, NEWS FLASH, it's supposed to be, because all that extra stuff you want are included in the copy abilities.

I suggest you view this video if you don't understand how little Kirby has evolved even in 2D:

 

[Oracle Link]

I suggest you view this video if you don't understand how little Kirby has evolved even in 2D:

The whole kirby is stale argument sucks!
I mean a lot of people say star allies is underwhelming because of The formula when in reality it just has bad level design!

 

[Quillion]

The whole kirby is stale argument sucks!
I mean a lot of people say star allies is underwhelming because of The formula when in reality it just has bad level design!

Who says it can't be both?

 

[Oracle Link]

Who says it can't be both?

Robobot is one of the best kirby games yet it came out right before star allies also the formula is only really in place for 5 games:
Kirby ss Ultra > Kirby return to dreamlan > Kirby 3d >kirby planet robobot and Kirby Star allies!

 

[Quillion]

Robobot is one of the best kirby games yet it came out right before star allies also the formula is only really in place for 5 games:
Kirby ss Ultra > Kirby return to dreamlan > Kirby 3d >kirby planet robobot and Kirby Star allies!

Planet Robobot is only the best Kirby game like how NSMBU is the best New Super Mario Bros. game. The formula simply holds it back.

 

[NintenRob]

I suggest you view this video if you don't understand how little Kirby has evolved even in 2D:

I'm not gonna watch some random video on the internet to tell me how I should fell about the games. I've played them myself thanks, I can form my own opinion.