Sakurai and his own Kirby bias

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#1
I'm really tired of it honestly, the games still great but as a Kirby fan it's painful to see just how unbalanced it's representation is. Every significant comes from the same 3 games. The lack of modern representation is tiring.


Every stage
All 3 assist trophy
The boss

Even the closest to a modern remix is for a game over ten years old.


Kirby is doing better than ever and just concluded a wonderful era, but you'd hardly know it looking at Smash, everything modern is just small things like ported songs, some spirits and a couple of colours. The most significant thing modern Kirby has gotten was the final smashes.


Even if a character is too much to ask for regarding Bandana Dee, we couldn't even get a stage. I know an Epic Yarn stage was "planned" but why when it was decided that it would become Woolly World did you decide to make Great Cave Offensive? Really?

Even Spirit Battles, I only remember encountering Mage Sisters, Susie and Magolor


At this point, the only part of Kirby Super Star that Sakurai hasn't included a major reference too was Dyna blade.


Surely it's not too much to ask for a stage from the modern era is it? Smash Wii U gave a modern stage to every franchise with a modern game except for Kirby. It's just absurd at this point.
 

Mogisthelioma

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#2
Yeah as a Kirby fan it really sucks to see Sakurai still act like Super Star is the greatest game ever made and see most of the Kirby representation come from SS and Kirby's Adventure/Dream Land. A lot of people assume that most popular Kirby fighter requests are small characters or one-offs as a result since Sakurai is forcing himself to work with so little by refusing to take in content from Kirby games he didn't design. The only post-Sakurai Kirby content we have are some music rips (not a single remix IIRC) and Kirby/Dedede's final Smashes. No stage, fighter, AT, or music remix. And 90% of the SPirits from the series are from Sakurai's games.
 
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#3
Kirby is one of the greatest franchises and his own creation. Why wouldn't Kirby be a main character?

Maybe you being less biased than Sakuari would result in a better game than Smash Bros. Ultimate. Apply for lead at Nintendo for next Smash game,
 

Arthur97

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#4
Kirby is one of the greatest franchises and his own creation. Why wouldn't Kirby be a main character?

Maybe you being less biased than Sakuari would result in a better game than Smash Bros. Ultimate. Apply for lead at Nintendo for next Smash game,
The point of the argument is Sakurai prioritizing stuff from Kirby games he made.

I will add that the dragon...thing from Return to Dreamland is a battle. Still though, they could have replaced the Nightmare assist (which most people probably don't even like) with something like Magolore.

However, keeping Marx as teh boss makes sense as, outside Dedede and Meta Knight, he may be the most well known Kirby boss (though, why did we get nothing from Metroid?).

Stage wise, they at least have more variety than DK's jungle levels. At least the one from Brawl had the sky portion.
 
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#5
Kirby is one of the greatest franchises and his own creation. Why wouldn't Kirby be a main character?

Maybe you being less biased than Sakuari would result in a better game than Smash Bros. Ultimate. Apply for lead at Nintendo for next Smash game,
Someone didn't read what the OP said :p
He's just saying that there isn't enough modern rep for Kirby as most of the things in Kirby were from when Sakurai made the games. Nothing at all about him being the made character.

Anyway, I didn't even think about how Kirby wasn't well represented based from his modern titles. This is absolutely true now that I think about it. Makes me now want Banana Dee to be part of the dlc roster to get him some modern justice he deserves.
 

VodkaHaze

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#7
The point of the argument is Sakurai prioritizing stuff from Kirby games he made.

I will add that the dragon...thing from Return to Dreamland is a battle. Still though, they could have replaced the Nightmare assist (which most people probably don't even like) with something like Magolore.

However, keeping Marx as teh boss makes sense as, outside Dedede and Meta Knight, he may be the most well known Kirby boss (though, why did we get nothing from Metroid?).

Stage wise, they at least have more variety than DK's jungle levels. At least the one from Brawl had the sky portion.
I agree. I think having a boss from Metroid would have been incredible. I know that Ridley and Dark Samus can't be bosses due to being playable characters, and Mother Brain is an assist trophy, but in terms of bosses the one that comes to mind for most appropriate is probably a Queen Metroid.
 

Arthur97

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#8
I agree. I think having a boss from Metroid would have been incredible. I know that Ridley and Dark Samus can't be bosses due to being playable characters, and Mother Brain is an assist trophy, but in terms of bosses the one that comes to mind for most appropriate is probably a Queen Metroid.
Even Mother Brain could work. Look at Rathalos (probably the most bizarre boss). Nintendo has such a rich line up, and they pick Rathalos and Dracula.
 

Mogisthelioma

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#9
I agree. I think having a boss from Metroid would have been incredible. I know that Ridley and Dark Samus can't be bosses due to being playable characters, and Mother Brain is an assist trophy, but in terms of bosses the one that comes to mind for most appropriate is probably a Queen Metroid.
All of this and the fact that there's no boss from Metroid makes me want to strangle someone. They brought back Galleom but no Omega Ridley or something? They could have at least tried!
 
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#10
It's probably also due to worries of him being accused of bias if he gives more content to Kirby (Kirb even wound up being low-tier in Melee).

Give Kirby more content than usual? Bias! Don't give him enough content? Bias for your own stuff! As the creator of the Kirby series, it's a lose-lose situation.

Or he's simply not comfortable with using Kirby stuff from other creators at all (respecting other people's stuff is a cultural trait, from what I understand). Whatever the reason is, we won't know until he's got no other choice but to eventually get around to Kirby again.

Though I'm happy with the Chef Kawasaki AT at least.
 
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Arthur97

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#11
It's probably also due to worries of him being accused of bias if he gives more content to Kirby (Kirb even wound up being low-tier in Melee).

Give Kirby more content than usual? Bias! Don't give him enough content? Bias for your own stuff! As the creator of the Kirby series, it's a lose-lose situation.

Or he's simply not comfortable with using Kirby stuff from other creators at all (respecting other people's stuff is a cultural trait, from what I understand). Whatever the reason is, we won't know until he's got no other choice but to eventually get around to Kirby again.

Though I'm happy with the Chef Kawasaki AT at least.
His biggest claim to fame is literally built around mostly other people's stuff.
 

Good Guy Giygas

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#12
I'm not gonna lie, if I were in his shoes, I'd probably do the same thing. It might seem kinda petty that he's not acknowledging the Kirby games he didn't have a hand in creating, but I honestly can't really blame him. Imagine creating such an iconic character in gaming history but then you don't get to work on new games for said character anymore. I'm sure Sakurai's happy about how big Kirby's become, but I'm sure he's equally sad that he himself doesn't get to use his own character all that much. I can understand why he'd want to reference as much of his own material as possible; it allows him to relive and pay homage to his "glory days" in a way.

In short, I'm not saying it's right per say, but I can see why Sakurai does it.
 

Quillion

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#13
Give me just ONE thing that the modern Kirby games do significantly differently from the classic ones.

This accusation of "classic Kirby bias" is a load of bull. Everything from the classic games represents the whole franchise as well as anything from the modern games.

...Well, I could go for a new character at least, but let's be real, none of the other characters are as significant as the core trio of Kirby, Meta Knight, and Dedede.
 

Arthur97

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#14
Give me just ONE thing that the modern Kirby games do significantly differently from the classic ones.

This accusation of "classic Kirby bias" is a load of bull. Everything from the classic games represents the whole franchise as well as anything from the modern games.

...Well, I could go for a new character at least, but let's be real, none of the other characters are as significant as the core trio of Kirby, Meta Knight, and Dedede.
I would argue Bandana Dee is working his way in there.
 

Arthur97

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#17
What's all the fuss about Bandana Dee, I always thought he was simply a fun character that super smash flash 2 added in their game to get a good laugh.
He's just kind of...there in a lot of modern Kirby games in various ways. Often as a multiplayer option along with Dedede and Meta Knight if the game has co-op. I was initially not too big on him joining Smash, but I think the plant helped warm me to him. Plus, if it keeps a third party out of DLC, I'm definitely for him.
 
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#18
Give me just ONE thing that the modern Kirby games do significantly differently from the classic ones.

This accusation of "classic Kirby bias" is a load of bull. Everything from the classic games represents the whole franchise as well as anything from the modern games.

...Well, I could go for a new character at least, but let's be real, none of the other characters are as significant as the core trio of Kirby, Meta Knight, and Dedede.
Well for starters, the climax of each game has been raised to the extreme. And the music has gotten better, and the environments have gotten better. Improved characters in general.

No offense but your post seems like nothing but ignorance
 

Quillion

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#20
He's just kind of...there in a lot of modern Kirby games in various ways. Often as a multiplayer option along with Dedede and Meta Knight if the game has co-op. I was initially not too big on him joining Smash, but I think the plant helped warm me to him. Plus, if it keeps a third party out of DLC, I'm definitely for him.
As you said, though, Dee's "just there" in all of the Kirby games. His role in all of his appearances could be filled by literally anyone else. They just happened to pick a forgotten character for his roles instead of actually memorable characters like Gooey or Adeline.

Really, he's just a meager step above the Zelda one shots who will never be playable in Smash.

Well for starters, the climax of each game has been raised to the extreme. And the music has gotten better, and the environments have gotten better. Improved characters in general.

No offense but your post seems like nothing but ignorance
I said "significantly different", not "the sane but better".
 

Christian_CAO

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#21
smash in general is literally kirby superstar mechanics with nintendo/ videogame ip's, combined with sumo and top based rulesets

Smash is Kirby SuperStar mixed with sumo/tops/beyblade (Prove me wrong)
Everything from the specials being assigned how they are, to the shields and the platforming fighting all points to the arena and kirby's abilities.

The representation of superstar is very much necessary since developers like sakurai take past game experience and develop them in newer projects.
Smash is heavily inspired by Kirby Superstars arena, it just makes sense to give more than a nod to one of the most popular kirby games of the snes.

I'd love for there to be more modern representation, heck even more retro reps with dark matter would be nice to have (though subspace kind of scratched that itch back in brawl since the entire plot nearly mirrors kirby 64 the crystal shards).
 

Arthur97

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#22
As you said, though, Dee's "just there" in all of the Kirby games. His role in all of his appearances could be filled by literally anyone else. They just happened to pick a forgotten character for his roles instead of actually memorable characters like Gooey or Adeline.

Really, he's just a meager step above the Zelda one shots who will never be playable in Smash.



I said "significantly different", not "the sane but better".
You're kind of taking what I said out of context. He's just there in various ways. Like it or not, he's become a staple. from support to playability, he seems to be here to stay.

Also, Gooey, memorable?
 
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#24
You're kind of taking what I said out of context. He's just there in various ways. Like it or not, he's become a staple. from support to playability, he seems to be here to stay.

Also, Gooey, memorable?
I agree. He's basically for player 2 now these days. Kind of like how Luigi was for Mario and Diddy Kong for Donkey Kong. So why not add in Bandana Dee right?
 

Ryu Myuutsu

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#25
I think that this topic can be accurately summarized as people being mad at Sakurai for not giving into their agendas.

If you are a developer, people are going to scrutinize you for having a vision and taking certain artistic or design approaches different from what they want. Try to create a game such as Smash and be as "fair" and "balanced" as you can. You'll realize that this is impossible.


Yeah as a Kirby fan it really sucks to see Sakurai still act like Super Star is the greatest game ever made and see most of the Kirby representation come from SS and Kirby's Adventure/Dream Land. A lot of people assume that most popular Kirby fighter requests are small characters or one-offs as a result since Sakurai is forcing himself to work with so little by refusing to take in content from Kirby games he didn't design. The only post-Sakurai Kirby content we have are some music rips (not a single remix IIRC) and Kirby/Dedede's final Smashes. No stage, fighter, AT, or music remix. And 90% of the SPirits from the series are from Sakurai's games.
Did Sakurai say or imply that? Gonna need a source on that, otherwise that claim is bogus.
People may take umbrage with Super Star, but that doesn't change the fact that that game set the precedent for current Kirby titles and the Smash series. You can tell how heavily influenced they are by it. Return to Dreamland, Triple Deluxe, Planet Robobot and Star Allies play just like how a Kirby Super Star game would play in the modern era. Also, the environments in Return to Dreamland and Star Allies's don't have a unified theme like Triple Deluxe and Planet Robobot which make them resemble Super Star even more.

I could see why Sakurai as a creator felt more comfortable taking elements from a game he worked on and was familiar with rather than from games he didn't develop. I doubt its done out of disrespect to HAL's work.

Speaking of HAL, they seem to back this notion. The tracks and remixes are composed and arranged by several independent composers and HAL Laboratories. It is implied that composers have free reign over which music they can work on and bring to the table as Smash remixes; this would explain why the number of music tracks per series is imbalanced. In other words, blaming this on Sakurai bias would just be silly when HAL themselves handpicked the music. While I cannot speak for other element of the Kirby universe, blame the composers for not siding with your biases on this one ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And the claim about the 90% of the Spirits is way off. There are 58 Kirby Spirits, about 23 of them like Daroach, the Mage Sisters, Dark Matter, Galacta Knight, etc. are from non Sakurai Kirby games. That means that roughly 61.35% of them come from Sakurai made games. And let's not get into the fact that the Spirits on that percentage like Scarfy, Gordo, Bonkers, Knuckle Joe, Kracko, Whispy, Bugzzy, etc. make constant re-appearances throughout most Kirby games to this day. Are we really going to start caring now where they were created and by who? Kirby content is Kirby content.

My previous paragraph epitomizes my disdain for this matter. Its not a case of fans addressing a problem that needs a fair solution; it's just agenda fulfillment. The reason this becomes a problem is because it gets in the way of said agenda.
 

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#26
Admittedly, the Kirby Spirits have pretty much every major character from recent titles.

I can only think of one omission, being Taranza, but even then the Kirby spirits do a good job of showing Kirby throughout the ages.
 

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#29
Point is, Bandana Dee is a rising star within his franchise and has cemented himself as a series mainstay in a series famous for one offs.

He's a big deal within the Kirby franchise and brings an interesting and not yet done skill set (tiny fighter with long but thin disjoints).

It's a no brainer why people like him and suggest him for Smash.
 

1FC0

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#30
Kirby is one of the greatest franchises and his own creation. Why wouldn't Kirby be a main character?

Maybe you being less biased than Sakuari would result in a better game than Smash Bros. Ultimate. Apply for lead at Nintendo for next Smash game,
Nice knee-jerk reaction. Next time try actually reading what people have to say before you respond to them.
 

Quillion

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#31
Point is, Bandana Dee is a rising star within his franchise and has cemented himself as a series mainstay in a series famous for one offs.

He's a big deal within the Kirby franchise and brings an interesting and not yet done skill set (tiny fighter with long but thin disjoints).

It's a no brainer why people like him and suggest him for Smash.
But why does Dee of all characters have to be a riding star? The "fourth main character" really should have been anyone else.
 

Khao

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#32
Yeah, "Bias".

How much recurring content has modern Kirby actually introduced? Bandana Dee is probably the only element from post Return to Dreamland games that keeps reappearing, and he's only notable in that he's the "fourth main character" (if that was enough, Toad would've been in the series ages ago). I do think he'd fit right in if he was playable, but I'm honestly sick of hearing about his absence as if it was an insult. Compared to the current Kirby characters he's relatively minor. One of the best possible candidates from Kirby for sure, but still relatively minor.

Outside of characters, what else do we need? Stages are already a fine representation of all eras of Kirby to be honest, as outside of one-off, more "experimental" games, the aesthetic hasn't really evolved at all since RTD, which itself already felt like a mere modernization of classic games. A stage from something like Robobot would've been great though, as it differs greatly from previous games and could use a few fun elements from the game, but Ultimate didn't really focus on adding new stages outside of new series (and to add something from BotW and SMO, which are both arguably their biggest game releases in this decade) so that wasn't gonna happen anyway.

Then we have bosses, and come on, are you really gonna argue that choosing Marx comes from a position of bias?

There's also Spirits. And they're fine. I don't think there's even a single major character from the newer games who's missing.

The only thing we have left are assist trophies, and I guess we could have a few more modern characters in there. But to be honest, with the way the fandom reacts to some assist trophies it might be for the better if some characters are absent entirely. A Bandana Dee AT would cause a huge ****storm even if he wouldn't be making it to the game otherwise.

At the end of the day you could make this same argument with a lot of other series. Even Zelda, which gets a massive amount of new content with every Smash bros, has a lot of games, styles and "eras" that go completely neglected (such as the first three classic games and the vast majority of handheld releases) but you can't really attribute that to bias, can you? The truth is that adding references to all the games of all the different series is just about impossible. There will be major ommisions everywhere you look. In some cases it'll be classic games. In some, it'll be modern ones. In some it'll even be entire sub-series. You have to look at what we have and think if those elements are a good representation of the franchise as a whole, and you gotta question if whatever element you're requesting actually adds to that image. If you ask me, Kirby is in a good position. Sakurai or not, Super Star is still the most influential Kirby game, and it established a lot of elements that remain in the series to this day. And yes, I'd consider myself a fan and I have played most of the new games, in case you want to ask.
 
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Mogisthelioma

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#36
I think that this topic can be accurately summarized as people being mad at Sakurai for not giving into their agendas.

If you are a developer, people are going to scrutinize you for having a vision and taking certain artistic or design approaches different from what they want. Try to create a game such as Smash and be as "fair" and "balanced" as you can. You'll realize that this is impossible.




Did Sakurai say or imply that? Gonna need a source on that, otherwise that claim is bogus.
People may take umbrage with Super Star, but that doesn't change the fact that that game set the precedent for current Kirby titles and the Smash series. You can tell how heavily influenced they are by it. Return to Dreamland, Triple Deluxe, Planet Robobot and Star Allies play just like how a Kirby Super Star game would play in the modern era. Also, the environments in Return to Dreamland and Star Allies's don't have a unified theme like Triple Deluxe and Planet Robobot which make them resemble Super Star even more.

I could see why Sakurai as a creator felt more comfortable taking elements from a game he worked on and was familiar with rather than from games he didn't develop. I doubt its done out of disrespect to HAL's work.

Speaking of HAL, they seem to back this notion. The tracks and remixes are composed and arranged by several independent composers and HAL Laboratories. It is implied that composers have free reign over which music they can work on and bring to the table as Smash remixes; this would explain why the number of music tracks per series is imbalanced. In other words, blaming this on Sakurai bias would just be silly when HAL themselves handpicked the music. While I cannot speak for other element of the Kirby universe, blame the composers for not siding with your biases on this one ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And the claim about the 90% of the Spirits is way off. There are 58 Kirby Spirits, about 23 of them like Daroach, the Mage Sisters, Dark Matter, Galacta Knight, etc. are from non Sakurai Kirby games. That means that roughly 61.35% of them come from Sakurai made games. And let's not get into the fact that the Spirits on that percentage like Scarfy, Gordo, Bonkers, Knuckle Joe, Kracko, Whispy, Bugzzy, etc. make constant re-appearances throughout most Kirby games to this day. Are we really going to start caring now where they were created and by who? Kirby content is Kirby content.

My previous paragraph epitomizes my disdain for this matter. Its not a case of fans addressing a problem that needs a fair solution; it's just agenda fulfillment. The reason this becomes a problem is because it gets in the way of said agenda.
I get salty every time someone brings this up so a few things I said were hyperbole, including the 90% of Spirits.
I didn't know that about the composers, sorry. I though the dev team commissioned remixes.
Although yes Super Star set the precedent for most Kirby games (and Smash as a whole to some extent) that doesn't mean it should be the focus of most Kirby representation for this long. It would be nice to see a fighter, AT, stage, etc. come from something Sakurai didn't develop. After all, he's comfortable adding content from games he has ha no part in at all, he should at least be comfortable adding Kirby content he didn't design.
 

Mogisthelioma

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#38
I think the main reason Kirby's the star of WOL is because Sakurai's like: Whoo!! I'm a creator b******
Sakurai actually explained that Kirby survived being the only fighter physically capable of escaping while also being simple enough to play to start off with. Source Gaming translated his column, you can check it out there.
 

1FC0

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#39
Sakurai actually explained that Kirby survived being the only fighter physically capable of escaping while also being simple enough to play to start off with. Source Gaming translated his column, you can check it out there.
Sakurai also said that Ridley would not be in Smash Bros, that Smash Bros. would not feature real guns, that he would not include fighters from other fighting games, etc. I take anything he says with a grain of salt.

Kirby is simple but Cloud is even simpler and Cloud could have survived by juggling the beams with his Uair so Cloud would have been a better pick.
 

Luigifan18

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#40
Sakurai also said that Ridley would not be in Smash Bros, that Smash Bros. would not feature real guns, that he would not include fighters from other fighting games, etc. I take anything he says with a grain of salt.

Kirby is simple but Cloud is even simpler and Cloud could have survived by juggling the beams with his Uair so Cloud would have been a better pick.
You have become a parody of yourself. Do you really think a completely clueless newbie can handle Cloud's Limit system?! At least as Kirby, you can flail around and do semi-decently in low-level play, and he even has multiple jumps so he can save himself after bumbling straight off a cliff.
 
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