Sakurai and his own Kirby bias

[Quillion]

You keep acting as though HAL is responsible for his popularity because they push his inclusion on to fans, when that simply isn’t the case. He was simply a character that gained popularity and HAL responded by keeping his inclusion and slowly giving him more prominent roles.

HAL simply made him a 4th playable character and fans liked him so much that he became a main stay. HAL themselves have actually been pretty reserved when it comes to promoting BD as again he is just there or playable most of the time, and marketing never mentions him. The fan base allowed him to become the 4th member, even saying he was worthy of Smash after his one playable appearance, so HAL promotes him and gives him more stuff to do in recent titles as they know he has a fan base. BD is popular, not due to corporate advertising, but due to fans love for the series. The fan attachment that he received proved to HAL that they can do more with him and so they slowly drew him in to the 4th main character slot. I say this because you seem of the opinion that HAL just took this character that no one liked and kept pushing until people just accepted him as a main character, when it was clearly the other way around as the fans demanded him more and HAL wanted to slowly bring him up.

You're just making it sound like Bandana Dee becoming the fourth main character was a lucky fluke. Again, if anyone else was the fourth playable character in RTDL, they would be the fourth main character.

Bandana Dee just didn't deserve that spot in the first place. Or at least he didn't deserve to have his role grow from it.

 

[Opossum]

You're just making it sound like Bandana Dee becoming the fourth main character was a lucky fluke. Again, if anyone else was the fourth playable character in RTDL, they would be the fourth main character.

Bandana Dee just didn't deserve that spot in the first place. Or at least he didn't deserve to have his role grow from it.

I don't even particularly like Bandana Dee but I don't see what makes him less "deserving."

 

[Plumstar]

If we don't get any new Kirby fighters then I hope they'll at least add new Kirby spirits for a future Kirby spirit board event. There's still some modern Kirby spirits they could add in like Star Dream, Taranza, Hyness (unmasked), etc. And while I'm happy for the DL2 and 3 representation we didn't really have anything new for 64, odd considering there's already a Zero 2 remix.

 

[Captain Shades]

You're just making it sound like Bandana Dee becoming the fourth main character was a lucky fluke. Again, if anyone else was the fourth playable character in RTDL, they would be the fourth main character.

Bandana Dee just didn't deserve that spot in the first place. Or at least he didn't deserve to have his role grow from it.

If BD was a lucky fluke, does that mean the other characters are too as most appeared in only one game with equal or even less things to do than BD?

To fully comment, I don’t think people take into consideration the timing of RTDL. In a way, Kirby is no better than Fire Emblem in many respects. I think these character battles are more a result of having years of knowledge ahead of what developers had when creating a game.

In a way RTDL was the Awakening of the Kirby franchise, a game made for a practically dead franchise that, just like BD, was a lucky fluke to kick start the franchise again and breathe new life after mismanagement. Kirby had no clear direction going forward but I feel there were calculated measures that went in to restart the franchise. The biggest measure being to go back to the 1st of now 4 eras of Kirby.

To talk about the eras it goes as follows. The first era was the Sakurai era, notable for 3 games being Dream Land, Adventure, and Super Star. The second was the Sakurai leave era, which included the Dark Matter Trilogy, Amazing Mirror, and Squeak Squad. The third was the experimental era, an era defined by spin-offs such as Canvas Curse and Epic Yarn. Finally the modern era which started in 2009 with Ultra, but really kicked off with Return to Dream Land.

I feel that defining the eras is important as it paints a picture of what the years leading up to BD’s inclusion were like. To say the least, Kirby was in a very rough patch. Most said that Kirby hit its peak and never returned with Super Star, which created a dilemma as modern titles just couldn’t live up Sakurai’s legacy. This was a huge issue for the second era as Kirby was seen as a series that de-evolved, or was taking steps backwards. Many of the post-Sakurai titles clearly didn’t get Super Star, they lacked the smooth and quick gameplay and copy abilities were more like power ups rather than the full Smash style move sets we get today and in Super Star. Add in the multiple failed gimmicks such as the Metroid-Vania style gameplay of Amazing Mirror or even the mixed copy abilities and Kirby was seen as somewhat directionless and trying to build up to something that it already did. I should preface that this is more pre-2010 talk, I know 64 and such are great games, but I do feel that they represent the hole left by Sakurai as in some respects 64 and the like really did strip away elements pre-established by Sakurai, which did hurt them and set Kirby on the path of failure leading into the third era. I also want to add that I feel that many grew to appreciate the games more after RTDL and the Kirby boom of the early 2010s, whereas before it was clear by the lack of titles that HAL found that their current path for Kirby was unsustainable and they needed to rework what they were doing.

Now I know I wrote a lot, but to get back to the question, why BD? Honestly, I think it is because of Kirby’s rocky history and the goal of RTDL. The Kirby team clearly wanted to get away from the non-Sakurai titles, as they were what held the series back at the time so it makes sense. The point of RTDL was to be a return to Super Star, not 64 or DreamLand 3 or any other second era title. While many might not like this decision now, it made sense for a series that fizzled out with the lack of a director and had a rocky 20 years. Instead of going with a character from Kirby’s more decisive games, the creators decided to use a character from the proven success, as well as one that is iconic but new to usher in a new era. BD was a perfect character for the goal and timing of RTDL, a character from the game they are trying to one-up, a new character that proves Kirby is going into a new direction, an iconic enemy type character that more easily introduces the new players from the few year hiatus of the series to the franchise world, and maybe even an evolution on what the Kirby team was capable of as the idea of a Waddle Dee protagonist was an idea started in 64 but they now felt the need to go all in since they still had an open spot.

I feel BD was more a result of timing than anything else. To compare again, RTDL was much like Awakening in the fact that it went simple to bring in new players. BD is simple, but he gets people into Kirby’s world and has no strings attached which say that you either need to play older titles or for people who don’t like 64, that the game will be a follow up to it. With future knowledge we know 64 will become a fan favorite, but at the time it was Super Star that fans and casuals wanted, so it’d have been risky to pull characters from the more weird titles. BD was more or less just a safe pick to help bring Kirby back to his former glory, which thankfully happened. Due to him being a big character in a game that saw the rise of new fans, I think he quickly took the spot of the fan favorite as he was the character to usher in a new era similar to Chrom. He was basic enough in character and design for anyone to latch onto, thus helping him and Kirby rise to the top. So yeah, he was a fluke character, but RTDL was a fluke game to begin with, that doesn’t make what it accomplished any less credible. RTDL may not have done a lot to please the hard core fans, but it gave Kirby a future, one that was questioned up until its release, so I cannot hate any of the decisions made about it.

 

[R O F L]

And while I'm happy for the DL2 and 3 representation we didn't really have anything new for 64, odd considering there's already a Zero 2 remix.

I don't see this as very odd considering we have never had any Kirby 64 trophies in previous games, the only representation Kirby 64 has are two songs, Zero Two and Pop Star.
Plus, Kirby 64 doesn't have artwork for anyone besides Zero Two and the main 5.

Here's how it feels:
View attachment 187741
(I did not make this btw)

Do we need a stage based off a new Kirby game, though? Most of the major landmarks in the Kirby franchise are located in the old games. Kirby Fighters is a good example of this, almost ALL of the stages in that game come from the old Kirby games.
Try to find a stage that rivals how iconic The Fountain of Dreams, Green Greens, The Halberd, or The Great Cave Offensive are. However, I do agree that there are too many Green Greens.
The only good potential "modern Kirby" stage is Another Dimension, which has various appearances in the new Kirby games.

Also, who the heck put Splatoon in there? Splatoon 2 doesn't have a stage. And DKC's most recent stage comes from a 2009 game, before "modern Kirby" even existed.

 

[NintenRob]

Morray Towers is in both Splatoon games

And Donkey Kong Country Returns was a return to form for the franchise, much Kirby's Return to Dreamland

One got a stage, another didn't.


Great Cave Offensive was such an unnecessary stage and really should have been Another Dimension or something

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Morray Towers is in both Splatoon games

And Donkey Kong Country Returns was a return to form for the franchise, much Kirby's Return to Dreamland

One got a stage, another didn't.


Great Cave Offensive was such an unnecessary stage and really should have been Another Dimension or something

Unnecessary? Not really. It is perfectly structured between the cave's four different areas according to the original game.

Another dimension isn't as visually attractive nor as complex in layout to fit in with the idea.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

People who aren't as familiar to the Kirby series seem to freak out when more than one Kirby newcomer is proposed. These are my top picks and here's why:
1. Bandana Waddle Dee: Obvious choice, the only one that really doesn't need explaining.
2. Magolor: He's very popular, especially in Japan (he placed 7th in the fighter ballot), and aside from BWD he was also the face of the new resurgence of Kirby games after 2011. Magolor has appeared in or at least made cameos in almost every Kirby game since. He would have a unique moveset to go with it.
3. Marx: Marx is arguably the most famous and iconic Kirby villain. He's also one of the series' most recurring characters. If in the next Smash bros. game he made the transition from boss to a unique fighter, that would be awesome!
4. Adeline & Ribbon and/or Gooey: Although having both characters as fighters wouldn't do any harm, the goal is to have at least one character form the non-Sakurai directed Kirby games before this era. Either one would work and be unique.

I'm convinced that in order to fully represent the Kirby series in the roster, we need 1 character from the Dark Matter trilogy and 1 character from the modern series.

My choices are Adeleine&Ribbon and Magolor, because I think they are the character with the biggest gameplay potential and more representative of the 2 branches of the series, though, to be honest, the Dark Matter trilogy has Rick/Kine/Coo and Dark Matter Blade as well that are good options too.
For the modern trilogy, Magolor is the character with the biggest impact on the series; his lore, the ancients, another dimension, and his design, influenced all the characters, the stories and settings of the subsequent games.

While my personal favorite modern character is Taranza, he's like the least popular/relevant of all, so he wouldn't make much sense...
For reasons explained in my previous posts, I think that Bandana Dee is not an option, and that the only possible option for a Waddle Dee to be playable IMO is as Waddle Dee (species), with the bandanna as a costume, along with the sailor hat and stuff. But I'm sure that there are still some key characters to add before thinking of putting a Waddle Dee in the roster, especially now that the "playable regular enemy" token has been taken by Piranha Plant.
There's also Susie, but I'm not sure if she represents the whole modern series well enough... I think she's a bit too much tied with Planet Robobot specifically.

I'm not much into Gooey... His design is simple and cool, it works very well in the Kirby series, but I can't see what interesting stuff he could bring to Smash... aside of some generic moves that Kirby already does (fireball, stone, maybe copy), the whip tongue (generic neutral attack), and electric beams that Robin already does... I think he is a nice character but IMO he does not have much potential for an interesting Smash moveset.
(unless you combine him with the animals and you make a character that's like "Gooey & Animals" or something... that way it might work).

Galacta Knight could be a nice semiclone, based on Metaknight and with Link's shield, but he's a very niche character, he only appeared in the true arenas and only the most hardcore Kirby fans know him. He's by no way a bad choice, but he's very fan-service, so while I would like him, I think that he's not that necessary (unless they make him into an echo).

Then, there's Marx. Marx is an important character, and all... but do we really need more Kirby Superstar representation? Magolor and Marx play nothing alike (well, maybe black hole aside), but character-wise, they are very similar characters (both story and personality wise), so I think it's a bit redundant to have both. I prefer to have Magolor instead, because:
-he's not from Kirby Superstar, that's already overrepresented in Smash
-Magolor is the best character to represent the modern series, while the classic Kirby games are already well represented with Metaknight and Dedede
Marx is another character like Galacta Knight: I'm not against him, but he's way too much fanservice and I think he's not necessary, especially because Magolor should get the priority over him.

so, tldr:
necessary characters:
-Adeleine & Ribbon
-Magolor

Rick/Kine/Coo as assist trophies acting like in Kirby Fighters
Galacta can be an echo, maybe
Marx and/or eventually Dark Matter Blade can stay as bosses IMO

Do we need a stage based off a new Kirby game, though? Most of the major landmarks in the Kirby franchise are located in the old games. Kirby Fighters is a good example of this, almost ALL of the stages in that game come from the old Kirby games.
Try to find a stage that rivals how iconic The Fountain of Dreams, Green Greens, The Halberd, or The Great Cave Offensive are. However, I do agree that there are too many Green Greens.
The only good potential "modern Kirby" stage is Another Dimension, which has various appearances in the new Kirby games.

I'm pretty sure that Another Dimension became iconic enough to deserve some representation in Smash... but again, Mario is still missing Bowser's Castle.

Great Cave Offensive was such an unnecessary stage and really should have been Another Dimension or something

Actually, I think that Great Cave Offensive is a nice stage... maybe not for competitive play, but it's well represented, and it's set in an actual environment instead of being a floating pice of land in the sky.
We have too many Green Greens stages, and the Gameboy stage was the most unnecessary instead.
I think that with the sky platforms with a Whispy, and that steampunk thing that looks nothing like Kirby art-style wise, Great Cave Offensive is the very only stage that captured the spirit of the Kirby series correctly. If anything, we should get more levels in that style... I mean, art style, not level design.
(EDIT: I forgot the Fountain of Dreams, that's good too).

 

[Quillion]

If BD was a lucky fluke, does that mean the other characters are too as most appeared in only one game with equal or even less things to do than BD?

To fully comment, I don’t think people take into consideration the timing of RTDL. In a way, Kirby is no better than Fire Emblem in many respects. I think these character battles are more a result of having years of knowledge ahead of what developers had when creating a game.

In a way RTDL was the Awakening of the Kirby franchise, a game made for a practically dead franchise that, just like BD, was a lucky fluke to kick start the franchise again and breathe new life after mismanagement. Kirby had no clear direction going forward but I feel there were calculated measures that went in to restart the franchise. The biggest measure being to go back to the 1st of now 4 eras of Kirby.

To talk about the eras it goes as follows. The first era was the Sakurai era, notable for 3 games being Dream Land, Adventure, and Super Star. The second was the Sakurai leave era, which included the Dark Matter Trilogy, Amazing Mirror, and Squeak Squad. The third was the experimental era, an era defined by spin-offs such as Canvas Curse and Epic Yarn. Finally the modern era which started in 2009 with Ultra, but really kicked off with Return to Dream Land.

I feel that defining the eras is important as it paints a picture of what the years leading up to BD’s inclusion were like. To say the least, Kirby was in a very rough patch. Most said that Kirby hit its peak and never returned with Super Star, which created a dilemma as modern titles just couldn’t live up Sakurai’s legacy. This was a huge issue for the second era as Kirby was seen as a series that de-evolved, or was taking steps backwards. Many of the post-Sakurai titles clearly didn’t get Super Star, they lacked the smooth and quick gameplay and copy abilities were more like power ups rather than the full Smash style move sets we get today and in Super Star. Add in the multiple failed gimmicks such as the Metroid-Vania style gameplay of Amazing Mirror or even the mixed copy abilities and Kirby was seen as somewhat directionless and trying to build up to something that it already did. I should preface that this is more pre-2010 talk, I know 64 and such are great games, but I do feel that they represent the hole left by Sakurai as in some respects 64 and the like really did strip away elements pre-established by Sakurai, which did hurt them and set Kirby on the path of failure leading into the third era. I also want to add that I feel that many grew to appreciate the games more after RTDL and the Kirby boom of the early 2010s, whereas before it was clear by the lack of titles that HAL found that their current path for Kirby was unsustainable and they needed to rework what they were doing.

Now I know I wrote a lot, but to get back to the question, why BD? Honestly, I think it is because of Kirby’s rocky history and the goal of RTDL. The Kirby team clearly wanted to get away from the non-Sakurai titles, as they were what held the series back at the time so it makes sense. The point of RTDL was to be a return to Super Star, not 64 or DreamLand 3 or any other second era title. While many might not like this decision now, it made sense for a series that fizzled out with the lack of a director and had a rocky 20 years. Instead of going with a character from Kirby’s more decisive games, the creators decided to use a character from the proven success, as well as one that is iconic but new to usher in a new era. BD was a perfect character for the goal and timing of RTDL, a character from the game they are trying to one-up, a new character that proves Kirby is going into a new direction, an iconic enemy type character that more easily introduces the new players from the few year hiatus of the series to the franchise world, and maybe even an evolution on what the Kirby team was capable of as the idea of a Waddle Dee protagonist was an idea started in 64 but they now felt the need to go all in since they still had an open spot.

I feel BD was more a result of timing than anything else. To compare again, RTDL was much like Awakening in the fact that it went simple to bring in new players. BD is simple, but he gets people into Kirby’s world and has no strings attached which say that you either need to play older titles or for people who don’t like 64, that the game will be a follow up to it. With future knowledge we know 64 will become a fan favorite, but at the time it was Super Star that fans and casuals wanted, so it’d have been risky to pull characters from the more weird titles. BD was more or less just a safe pick to help bring Kirby back to his former glory, which thankfully happened. Due to him being a big character in a game that saw the rise of new fans, I think he quickly took the spot of the fan favorite as he was the character to usher in a new era similar to Chrom. He was basic enough in character and design for anyone to latch onto, thus helping him and Kirby rise to the top. So yeah, he was a fluke character, but RTDL was a fluke game to begin with, that doesn’t make what it accomplished any less credible. RTDL may not have done a lot to please the hard core fans, but it gave Kirby a future, one that was questioned up until its release, so I cannot hate any of the decisions made about it.

Alright, I suppose this convinces me. BD was a good combination of being established in the Sakurai era while being enough of a blank slate for the new Kirby team to mold into a fourth main character. And I do agree that having a spear complements Meta Knight's sword and Dedede's hammer rather well.

That said, I'm seeing a bit of extremes here. Captain Shades is overprioritizing the politics of BD being Kirby's fourth main character and Iko MattOrr is overprioritizing BD's lack of uniqueness at the expense of his popularity, relevance, and prominence. Character selection needs to prioritize all of these factors equally.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

If BD was a lucky fluke, does that mean the other characters are too as most appeared in only one game with equal or even less things to do than BD?

To fully comment, I don’t think people take into consideration the timing of RTDL. In a way, Kirby is no better than Fire Emblem in many respects. I think these character battles are more a result of having years of knowledge ahead of what developers had when creating a game.

In a way RTDL was the Awakening of the Kirby franchise, a game made for a practically dead franchise that, just like BD, was a lucky fluke to kick start the franchise again and breathe new life after mismanagement. Kirby had no clear direction going forward but I feel there were calculated measures that went in to restart the franchise. The biggest measure being to go back to the 1st of now 4 eras of Kirby.

To talk about the eras it goes as follows. The first era was the Sakurai era, notable for 3 games being Dream Land, Adventure, and Super Star. The second was the Sakurai leave era, which included the Dark Matter Trilogy, Amazing Mirror, and Squeak Squad. The third was the experimental era, an era defined by spin-offs such as Canvas Curse and Epic Yarn. Finally the modern era which started in 2009 with Ultra, but really kicked off with Return to Dream Land.

I feel that defining the eras is important as it paints a picture of what the years leading up to BD’s inclusion were like. To say the least, Kirby was in a very rough patch. Most said that Kirby hit its peak and never returned with Super Star, which created a dilemma as modern titles just couldn’t live up Sakurai’s legacy. This was a huge issue for the second era as Kirby was seen as a series that de-evolved, or was taking steps backwards. Many of the post-Sakurai titles clearly didn’t get Super Star, they lacked the smooth and quick gameplay and copy abilities were more like power ups rather than the full Smash style move sets we get today and in Super Star. Add in the multiple failed gimmicks such as the Metroid-Vania style gameplay of Amazing Mirror or even the mixed copy abilities and Kirby was seen as somewhat directionless and trying to build up to something that it already did. I should preface that this is more pre-2010 talk, I know 64 and such are great games, but I do feel that they represent the hole left by Sakurai as in some respects 64 and the like really did strip away elements pre-established by Sakurai, which did hurt them and set Kirby on the path of failure leading into the third era. I also want to add that I feel that many grew to appreciate the games more after RTDL and the Kirby boom of the early 2010s, whereas before it was clear by the lack of titles that HAL found that their current path for Kirby was unsustainable and they needed to rework what they were doing.

Now I know I wrote a lot, but to get back to the question, why BD? Honestly, I think it is because of Kirby’s rocky history and the goal of RTDL. The Kirby team clearly wanted to get away from the non-Sakurai titles, as they were what held the series back at the time so it makes sense. The point of RTDL was to be a return to Super Star, not 64 or DreamLand 3 or any other second era title. While many might not like this decision now, it made sense for a series that fizzled out with the lack of a director and had a rocky 20 years. Instead of going with a character from Kirby’s more decisive games, the creators decided to use a character from the proven success, as well as one that is iconic but new to usher in a new era. BD was a perfect character for the goal and timing of RTDL, a character from the game they are trying to one-up, a new character that proves Kirby is going into a new direction, an iconic enemy type character that more easily introduces the new players from the few year hiatus of the series to the franchise world, and maybe even an evolution on what the Kirby team was capable of as the idea of a Waddle Dee protagonist was an idea started in 64 but they now felt the need to go all in since they still had an open spot.

I feel BD was more a result of timing than anything else. To compare again, RTDL was much like Awakening in the fact that it went simple to bring in new players. BD is simple, but he gets people into Kirby’s world and has no strings attached which say that you either need to play older titles or for people who don’t like 64, that the game will be a follow up to it. With future knowledge we know 64 will become a fan favorite, but at the time it was Super Star that fans and casuals wanted, so it’d have been risky to pull characters from the more weird titles. BD was more or less just a safe pick to help bring Kirby back to his former glory, which thankfully happened. Due to him being a big character in a game that saw the rise of new fans, I think he quickly took the spot of the fan favorite as he was the character to usher in a new era similar to Chrom. He was basic enough in character and design for anyone to latch onto, thus helping him and Kirby rise to the top. So yeah, he was a fluke character, but RTDL was a fluke game to begin with, that doesn’t make what it accomplished any less credible. RTDL may not have done a lot to please the hard core fans, but it gave Kirby a future, one that was questioned up until its release, so I cannot hate any of the decisions made about it.

I think there's a logic problem here.

Yes, Bandana Dee was well-timed for the inclusion of Return to Dreamland and even Kirby's 20th anniversary, but how does that excuse his roles after that? Until Star Allies, the only other times he was a main character were in a number of the spin-offs. In the 3DS mainline games he just throws you items, something that does not suit his character in the first place. If he really is a shining underdog, why would he replace Adeleine's role in being a service to Kirby?

This is kind of why I think Waddle Dee would be a better choice than Bandana Dee; there's a lot more they've done with the Waddle Dee race to warrant an entire moveset for them, whereas Bandana Dee on his own is much more limited. I fail to see why adding an alt for a blue bandana would be a problem, especially since they could improve his limitations. Also, wasn't Bandana Dee's initial purpose to boost the popularity of Waddle Dees? I think it would make sense.

 

[R O F L]

Morray Towers is in both Splatoon games

But keeps it's Splatoon 1 design.

Great Cave Offensive was such an unnecessary stage and really should have been Another Dimension or something

The Great Cave Offensive was probably added because they needed more stages based around 8-player smash.
Keep in mind that TGCO was developed before Kirby Triple Deluxe, so the only instance of Another Dimension was the final boss of KRtDL, it didn't become an iconic location until maybe around Robobot. TBH if it wasn't for 8-player smash they should've done Butter Building, Bubbly Clouds, Mt. Dedede, or the Mirror Room.

TL;DR: If Kirby got new stages for Ultimate, then yes, we need Another Dimension. But it was too new and wasn't iconic to the series at the time of Smash 4's development.


--------

I don't see why Adeline should be a fighter. She's a boss, not final boss, of KDL3, and a boss and side character in K64. She's obviously not very important to the series and her relevancy only exists through her being a hardcore-fan favorite. And looking at the supposed ballot results, Magolor and BWD both beat her by a large margin, add this on to the fact that she never had any presence in the Smash series and still has nothing, the fact that she doesn't have a spirit isn't surprising.
The only thing she has going for her is "moveset potential", but as far as we know, that's not all a character needs to join Smash.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

One thing I should mention is that so one here can prove that Sakurai is truly biased......right? Unless he explicitly said something about only reusing old Kirby content, everything here is purely speculation (although is should mention that the pattern of using older content is so obvious you can almost stare it in the face).

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Alright, I suppose this convinces me. BD was a good combination of being established in the Sakurai era while being enough of a blank slate for the new Kirby team to mold into a fourth main character. And I do agree that having a spear complements Meta Knight's sword and Dedede's hammer rather well.

That said, I'm seeing a bit of extremes here. Captain Shades is overprioritizing the politics of BD being Kirby's fourth main character and Iko MattOrr is overprioritizing BD's lack of uniqueness at the expense of his popularity, relevance, and prominence. Character selection needs to prioritize all of these factors equally.

Honestly, IMO his popularity is all what keeps the character alive.
I disagree with you about HAL pushing the character, they are putting him everywhere because the fans are asking for him. I'm sure that if it wasn't for the fans, he wouldn't have ever appeared in merchandise (something that anyway he rarely does), and he wouldn't have been in Star Allies at all.

What I'm saying is that HAL put him into a bunch of minor/secondary roles and the fans made a big deal out of it.
Bandana Dee is the loyal servant of King Dedede, ok, so why he doesn't appear in the opening of Triple Deluxe, when King Dedede is attacked by Taranza and some waddle dees are defending him (with spears)? Why isn't him playing chess with King Dedede in the opening of Planet Robobot?
If Hal was really pushing him, he would have been in all those cutscenes, and playable in Battle Royale; he would have been in the Amiibo instead of a regular Waddle Dee, etc.

I'm saying that he's not the 4th main character.
Just look at this: https://www.kirby.jp/character/
https://www.kirby.jp/special/photoframe/
(there are many other examples, including the Kirby series Amiibos).
Waddle Dee is considered a main character, while Bandana Dee is merely considered as one of the many versions of Waddle Dee.

As long as they continue to use these graphics as official artworks for merchandise and marketing, there's no way that Bandana Dee can be considered as a main character, he is not (people need to realize this).

At this point it's not even a problem of uniqueness... he doesn't make sense as a newcomer because he's Waddle Dee but with many pointless limitations; If you want to put a Waddle Dee in the roster, just put the original Waddle Dee instead (the bandana will be a costume for sure, but he won't be in the game as "Bandana Dee", that just won't happen... if it was going to happen, it would have happend in Smash 4 already).

 

[Quillion]

Honestly, IMO his popularity is all what keeps the character alive.
I disagree with you about HAL pushing the character, they are putting him everywhere because the fans are asking for him. I'm sure that if it wasn't for the fans, he wouldn't have ever appeared in merchandise (something that anyway he rarely does), and he wouldn't have been in Star Allies at all.

What I'm saying is that HAL put him into a bunch of minor/secondary roles and the fans made a big deal out of it.
Bandana Dee is the loyal servant of King Dedede, ok, so why he doesn't appear in the opening of Triple Deluxe, when King Dedede is attacked by Taranza and some waddle dees are defending him (with spears)? Why isn't him playing chess with King Dedede in the opening of Planet Robobot?
If Hal was really pushing him, he would have been in all those cutscenes, and playable in Battle Royale; he would have been in the Amiibo instead of a regular Waddle Dee, etc.

I'm saying that he's not the 4th main character.
Just look at this: https://www.kirby.jp/character/
https://www.kirby.jp/special/photoframe/
(there are many other examples, including the Kirby series Amiibos).
Waddle Dee is considered a main character, while Bandana Dee is merely considered as one of the many versions of Waddle Dee.

As long as they continue to use these graphics as official artworks for merchandise and marketing, there's no way that Bandana Dee can be considered as a main character, he is not (people need to realize this).

At this point it's not even a problem of uniqueness... he doesn't make sense as a newcomer because he's Waddle Dee but with many pointless limitations; If you want to put a Waddle Dee in the roster, just put the original Waddle Dee instead (the bandana will be a costume for sure, but he won't be in the game as "Bandana Dee", that just won't happen... if it was going to happen, it would have happend in Smash 4 already).

A consistent thread of secondary appearances throughout ~7 games (yes, counting spinoffs in this case) is still better treatment than having one or two major appearances and then being benched, as happened with the Dream Friends that aren't Meta Knight, Dedede, and Bandana Dee.

You can point to a bit of marketing all you want, but the games themselves speak louder. HAL is absolutely pushing him, fan demand or not. With this consistency of recent appearances, HAL is ensuring he has more staying power than Marx, Gooey, Adeleine, the Animal Friends, etc.

 

[Captain Shades]

I think there's a logic problem here.

Yes, Bandana Dee was well-timed for the inclusion of Return to Dreamland and even Kirby's 20th anniversary, but how does that excuse his roles after that? Until Star Allies, the only other times he was a main character were in a number of the spin-offs. In the 3DS mainline games he just throws you items, something that does not suit his character in the first place. If he really is a shining underdog, why would he replace Adeleine's role in being a service to Kirby?

This is kind of why I think Waddle Dee would be a better choice than Bandana Dee; there's a lot more they've done with the Waddle Dee race to warrant an entire moveset for them, whereas Bandana Dee on his own is much more limited. I fail to see why adding an alt for a blue bandana would be a problem, especially since they could improve his limitations. Also, wasn't Bandana Dee's initial purpose to boost the popularity of Waddle Dees? I think it would make sense.

To answer this I think it is really simple.

Why the Kirby team kept using him is obviously because he was the 4th in RTDL and a popular figure from that game. Going back to the Awakening analogy, it would have been stupid if Intelligent Systems just did nothing with Chrom, Lucina, and Robin after the major success that was Awakening. Bandana Dee was a character in a title that helped rebiuild Kirby, so new fans have a bigger connection with him, so why not bring him back as he is a popular character.

As for his roles, I feel they can be well explained. Obviously the playable roles make sense as to why he’s important as he’s big enough to be playable in at least 3 titles being RTDL, Rainbow Curse, and Star Allies. Then the Super Star Ultra and Battle Royal uses should also shine that HAL was giving him more character overall. As for the two main line 3DS games, I just feel he had no purpose. The titles were solo Kirby outings, so what would he do? BD kinda functions as a partner for Kirby, which is why multiplayer titles and spin-offs are so easy for him to fit into. In Battle Royal he is Kirby’s partner, in Rainbow Curse he is helping Kirby, to not reiterate his main character purpose is usually tied to being a force that will willing join up with Kirby on any of his quests. He suffers a bit of Luigi syndrome in this aspect as he is very much tied to titles that either have multiplayer or need a partner mechanic, and when games don’t have that they don’t need to be there. I guess the easier explaination is, as brought by Quillion , why should HAL force a character onto the fan base when they cannot offer much of anything to a particular title

As for your comment about Waddle Dee in Smash, I can agree. I’ve already said that Waddle Dees have been the 4th main character so I’d be down for a Waddle Dee, maybe include the 4 Bandana Dee alts as costumes that have the rest be like Sailor Waddle Dee, Golden Waddle Dee, etc.. Now do I agree that BD limits Waddle Dees? No, as he pretty much does everything a Waddle Dee does with parasol and such, but with an added spear move set, but I get the point as BD is a mascot to a species that typically takes the 4th main character slot, so why not include the species.

Honestly, IMO his popularity is all what keeps the character alive.
I disagree with you about HAL pushing the character, they are putting him everywhere because the fans are asking for him. I'm sure that if it wasn't for the fans, he wouldn't have ever appeared in merchandise (something that anyway he rarely does), and he wouldn't have been in Star Allies at all.

What I'm saying is that HAL put him into a bunch of minor/secondary roles and the fans made a big deal out of it.
Bandana Dee is the loyal servant of King Dedede, ok, so why he doesn't appear in the opening of Triple Deluxe, when King Dedede is attacked by Taranza and some waddle dees are defending him (with spears)? Why isn't him playing chess with King Dedede in the opening of Planet Robobot?
If Hal was really pushing him, he would have been in all those cutscenes, and playable in Battle Royale; he would have been in the Amiibo instead of a regular Waddle Dee, etc.

I'm saying that he's not the 4th main character.
Just look at this: https://www.kirby.jp/character/
https://www.kirby.jp/special/photoframe/
(there are many other examples, including the Kirby series Amiibos).
Waddle Dee is considered a main character, while Bandana Dee is merely considered as one of the many versions of Waddle Dee.

As long as they continue to use these graphics as official artworks for merchandise and marketing, there's no way that Bandana Dee can be considered as a main character, he is not (people need to realize this).

At this point it's not even a problem of uniqueness... he doesn't make sense as a newcomer because he's Waddle Dee but with many pointless limitations; If you want to put a Waddle Dee in the roster, just put the original Waddle Dee instead (the bandana will be a costume for sure, but he won't be in the game as "Bandana Dee", that just won't happen... if it was going to happen, it would have happend in Smash 4 already).

Not sure what you’re arguing. Even if the species in general is the 4th main character, than that only helps BD as he is the mascot of said species and the one given the most spotlight throughout the games. Even clicking on your website links, when you click to check out Waddle Dees, BD is the first to pop up when you scroll past the Waddle Dee icon.

As for marketing, two can play at that game

Ultimately, BD is a mascot for said species, so if Waddle Dees are the 4th main character and we get a generic Waddle Dee in Smash with costumes I’d still take that as a win, so I guess we’re all on the same page.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Captain Shades Still, when they want to minimize the representation of the core cast, they take a regular Waddle Dee instead of him.

Those pictures are the Twitter posts from the 25th anniversary; you know that Adeleine appeared more than Bandana Dee in those pictures? She was also in the wallpaper along with many other characters, but Bandana Dee was nowhere to be seen in the wallpaper.
Additionally, Adeleine has got a special artwork with her stamp on the back in the special edition of the Pupupu Memories Box, with the implication that, in-universe, she has drawn that and possibly all of those pictures.

So, if we use the 25th anniversary artworks to evaluate the importance of a character, Adeleine appears to be more important than Bandana Dee.

 

[Quillion]

Iko MattOrr Captain Shades : Can we please stop with this pissing contest about marketing and focus on what the games are doing instead?

 

[Captain Shades]

Iko MattOrr Captain Shades : Can we please stop with this pissing contest about marketing and focus on what the games are doing instead?

Yeah, I will. I didn’t even really go over marketing, I just showed that marketing does include BD. The other 90% of my post was focusing solely on the games, but I do apologize for playing to it and making it more of a focal point.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Marx, Bandana Dee, and even Dark Matter should all be in. It's always been weird to me that the focus of Smash drifted from the big IPs, I mean it's given us some great lesser-known characters like Mr. G&W and Duck Hunt, but it's also led to what my casual friends call "too many human characters and not enough cartoony/animal characters", like that's pretty much how casuals feel about the roster at this point. Any other director of a "Nintendo fighting game" would probably have added Toad, Paper Mario, Dixie Kong, one or two more Zelda characters, and one or two more Kirby characters by now, maybe even Waluigi, since he's obviously more recognizable to the average Nintendo fan than people like Chrom, Shulk, and Palutena.

Again, the focus obviously doesn't have to be on the big IPs, but Cloud before Toad is something that would only happen with Sakurai lol.

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

Can I be the first to say that "Sakurai elitists" in the Kirby fandom piss me off a lot.

Other people have worked on the Kirby franchise too, and their input is important. But what really makes my blood boil is when people act like Sakurai owns the Kirby franchise/characters, which he doesn't. I swear, there are people who still think that Sakurai was behind the games like Return to Dream Land, Planet Robobot, and Star Allies. No matter what you talk about with Kirby, it's always going to end up with someone like NO BUT SAKURAI SAID

Also, we don't know what exactly it is that Sakurai does. "Creator" is a very vague term. He didn't design every single Kirby character on his own. People always seem to have this made-up conspiracy theory/image of him that he does everything in these games on his own, when we really hardly know anything substantial about him. Like he's a Kickstarter developer or some crap. (One could argue that spirit choices in Ultimate were not even his doing)
It's like Miyamoto with Mario. The main reason Odyssey turned out the way it did is because Koizumi and his team got really good at getting him off their cases. (But what surprises me is that despite Miyamoto having created Zelda, people somehow associate that with Aonuma more)
Hell, do we even know who the singular "creator" of Splatoon is? ARMS? WarioWare/Rhythm Heaven?

Nobody even knows who Shinya Kumazaki is, besides people like me who bother to look it up. (Or anyone who's really into Kirby these days)
What, do people seriously believe that Sakurai is the one who is running @Kirby_JP on Twitter? And if he were in charge of Star Allies, do you really believe he'd let there be Dream Friends in it? Sora Ltd. isn't going out of its way to endorse/sponsor Kirby Cafe either.

"BUT SAKURAI" means nothing about anything with Kirby these days, so reinforcing the opinions of someone who hasn't been involved with the series in well over a decade makes one look like an elitist tool. All it does is insult the rest of HAL and their efforts. And Iwata, who was also instrumental to the creation of Kirby. I swear, it just seems to me like people care more about Kirby in Smash than Kirby in his own games.



But as for the topic at hand, nah, I legitimately don't think Kirby needs any more playable characters. Given how everyone sees Assist Trophies as "Smash kryptonite" (I don't, to be fair), there's still no need for any other ATs from it either.
The only reason people cry foul over Smash using anything with Kirby is because they still have no idea what "creator" really means. Hell, remember when Keiji Inafune acted like he owns Mega Man during the Mighty No. 9 days? I don't think even they know what it means either.

 

[Necro'lic]

Can I be the first to say that "Sakurai elitists" in the Kirby fandom piss me off a lot.

Other people have worked on the Kirby franchise too, and their input is important. But what really makes my blood boil is when people act like Sakurai owns the Kirby franchise/characters. I swear, there are people who still think that Sakurai was behind the games like Return to Dream Land, Planet Robobot, and Star Allies. No matter what you talk about with Kirby, it's always going to end up with someone like NO BUT SAKURAI SAID

Also, we don't know what exactly it is that Sakurai does. "Creator" is a very vague term. He didn't design every single Kirby character on his own. People always seem to have this made-up conspiracy theory/image of him that he does everything in these games on his own, when we really hardly know anything substantial about him. Like he's a Kickstarter developer or some crap. (One could argue that spirit choices in Ultimate were not even his doing)
It's like Miyamoto with Mario. The main reason Odyssey turned out the way it did is because Koizumi and his team got really good at getting him off their cases. (But what surprises me is that despite Miyamoto having created Zelda, people somehow associate that with Aonuma more)
Hell, do we even know who the singular "creator" of Splatoon is? ARMS? WarioWare/Rhythm Heaven?

Nobody even knows who Shinya Kumazaki is, besides people like me who bother to look it up. (Or anyone who's really into Kirby these days)
What, do people seriously believe that Sakurai is the one who is running @Kirby_JP on Twitter? And if he were in charge of Star Allies, do you really believe he'd let there be Dream Friends in it? Sora Ltd. isn't going out of its way to endorse/sponsor Kirby Cafe either.

"BUT SAKURAI" means nothing about anything with Kirby these days, so reinforcing the opinions of someone who hasn't been involved with the series in well over a decade makes one look like an elitist tool. All it does is insult the rest of HAL and their efforts. And Iwata, who was also instrumental to the creation of Kirby.

I swear, it just seems to me like people care more about Kirby in Smash than Kirby in his own games.



But as for the topic at hand, nah, I legitimately don't think Kirby needs any more playable characters. Given how everyone sees Assist Trophies as "Smash kryptonite" (I don't, to be fair), there's still no need for any other ATs from it either.
The only reason people cry foul over Smash using anything with Kirby is because they still have no idea what "creator" really means. Hell, remember when Keiji Inafune acted like he owns Mega Man during the Mighty No. 9 days? I don't think even they know what it means either.

Which people are you referring to exactly? Because the way you describe them makes it sound like they could either be supporters of more Kirby characters or people who don't want more Kirby characters.

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

...That had nothing to do with adding more Kirby characters to Smash. Just read it again.

 

[Necro'lic]

...That had nothing to do with adding more Kirby characters to Smash. Just read it again.

I thought so. Just wanted to be sure you weren't directing your comment to someone else here lol.

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

Ah, I see. And nah, it wasn’t.

But yeah, people vastly overstate what exactly it is that Sakurai does with these games.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Can I be the first to say that "Sakurai elitists" in the Kirby fandom piss me off a lot.

Other people have worked on the Kirby franchise too, and their input is important. But what really makes my blood boil is when people act like Sakurai owns the Kirby franchise/characters, which he doesn't. I swear, there are people who still think that Sakurai was behind the games like Return to Dream Land, Planet Robobot, and Star Allies. No matter what you talk about with Kirby, it's always going to end up with someone like NO BUT SAKURAI SAID

Also, we don't know what exactly it is that Sakurai does. "Creator" is a very vague term. He didn't design every single Kirby character on his own. People always seem to have this made-up conspiracy theory/image of him that he does everything in these games on his own, when we really hardly know anything substantial about him. Like he's a Kickstarter developer or some crap. (One could argue that spirit choices in Ultimate were not even his doing)
It's like Miyamoto with Mario. The main reason Odyssey turned out the way it did is because Koizumi and his team got really good at getting him off their cases. (But what surprises me is that despite Miyamoto having created Zelda, people somehow associate that with Aonuma more)
Hell, do we even know who the singular "creator" of Splatoon is? ARMS? WarioWare/Rhythm Heaven?

Nobody even knows who Shinya Kumazaki is, besides people like me who bother to look it up. (Or anyone who's really into Kirby these days)
What, do people seriously believe that Sakurai is the one who is running @Kirby_JP on Twitter? And if he were in charge of Star Allies, do you really believe he'd let there be Dream Friends in it? Sora Ltd. isn't going out of its way to endorse/sponsor Kirby Cafe either.

"BUT SAKURAI" means nothing about anything with Kirby these days, so reinforcing the opinions of someone who hasn't been involved with the series in well over a decade makes one look like an elitist tool. All it does is insult the rest of HAL and their efforts. And Iwata, who was also instrumental to the creation of Kirby. I swear, it just seems to me like people care more about Kirby in Smash than Kirby in his own games.



But as for the topic at hand, nah, I legitimately don't think Kirby needs any more playable characters. Given how everyone sees Assist Trophies as "Smash kryptonite" (I don't, to be fair), there's still no need for any other ATs from it either.
The only reason people cry foul over Smash using anything with Kirby is because they still have no idea what "creator" really means. Hell, remember when Keiji Inafune acted like he owns Mega Man during the Mighty No. 9 days? I don't think even they know what it means either.

I disagree with the last part, but I agree with everything else a lot. Not just Sakurai, but also those people who think that Kirby Superstar is the only good Kirby game and that a kirby game in order to be good should always have Superstar's gameplay at its core.

Anyway, I don't like to judge people's opinions, I prefer to talk about game content.
Quillion that wasn't a contest on my side, I was just trying (with a bit of sarcasm) to bring evidence that a character appearing in the Twitter artworks does not necessarily mean that said character is a main character, especially when the Twitter artworks even had NYUPUN in a picture.

This said, nobody *deserves* or *doesn't deserve* to be in Smash for being a main character or not, because if that rule was true, we would have got Toad and the rest of the Star Fox crew in the roster many Smash games ago, and Piranha Plant wouldn't even exist in the first place; there are clearly different factors involved in the selection criterias than just being a main character or not, and since you mentioned being off-topic, this is not the appropriate thread to discuss them.

Anyway I wish the characters talk would be avoided in this thread completely, since this thread is not about what character should get in or not, but about the horrible representation/misrepresentation in Smash of the Kirby series in general (not just characters, but also stages, and other content); which I agree it's a problem.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Inb4 someone calls Dee a "hat goomba" on this thread and we have this debate all over again......

I have to say B Boo_Destroyer that I totally agree except for the last part, which I won't touch upon. It really sucks to see an "elitist" (for lack of a batter word) go to the ultimate (pun intended) lengths to defend their series from the smallest amount of criticism even if you're fans of the same series as them. The people who credit Sakurai and only Sakurai for Kirby's success are oblivious to basically everything that's happened since 2003 and everyone else who worked on the games alongside him.

 

[Boo_Destroyer]

>Masked Dedede became the Final Smash.
>Kirby kept his Return To Dreamland Final Smash.
>There's a lot of modern Kirby songs, most being the best ones.
>We got many spirits of modern Kirby stuff.
>We got cool alts of Dark Meta Knight and Galacta Knight.

I'm sorry, but i won't believe that Sakurai hates to work with modern Kirby stuff.

Also, I have to agree with all this. Spirits are a real life saver when it comes to these things. (But I doubt Sakurai himself had any part in selecting them)

Just because it isn't in your face doesn't mean it isn't there. Kirby still has it just fine overall in Smash.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I will also agree that Dixie Kong needs to be in Smash, she feels like one of those missing member types being the only main protagonist of the DKC trilogy to not be in. Add in Bandana Dee for the missing 4th member of the Kirby crew, and Impa as the missing Hyrule Warrior (or you know, the only Zelda character outside of the main 3 to appear in more than 2 main line titles) and I feel Smash would be more complete in a sense.

Don't forget about Toad or Captain Toad who is the biggest Nintendo icon missing from the roster, Classic Pig Ganon who has appeared in more games than Ganondorf, and Waluigi who would represent the spin off Mario games. Toad, Pig Ganon, Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee, Impa, and Waluigi are all Nintendo all stars that would complete the roster's Nintendo representation.

Wait, was Jungle Hijinxs from Smash 4 from early DK games?

No, it was from Donkey Kong Country Returns.

Hold on, KKR a dominant force in Japan? Wasn't he popular in the West too?

K. Rool was dominant everywhere in the world. Source Gaming had a giant collective data poll they gathered from other polls all across the internet in almost all the different regions in the world and in their Japanese poll, K. Rool was ranked number 1. K. Rool was Japan's Ridley believe it or not.

 

[Luigifan18]

Don't forget about Toad or Captain Toad who is the biggest Nintendo icon missing from the roster, Classic Pig Ganon who has appeared in more games than Ganondorf, and Waluigi who would represent the spin off Mario games. Toad, Pig Ganon, Dixie Kong, Bandana Dee, Impa, and Waluigi are all Nintendo all stars that would complete the roster's Nintendo representation.

On the subject of Classic Pig Ganon, do you reckon Calamity Ganon counts as an instance of Pig Ganon? Either way, we can’t call it an instance of Ganondorf.

There's also a couple of games where Ganondorf kinda shows up, as he is acknowledged by the story as an active player in its events (BotW doesn’t count), but he but turns into Pig Ganon offscreen without the player ever actually seeing him as Ganondorf (specifically A Link to the Past, where Ganondorf transforms long before Link even gets involved in the plot (and if you count Aganhim as Ganon, that still isn't Ganondorf), and Four Swords Adventures, where Ganondorf is four steps ahead of the Links throughout the plot after his involvement is revealed, claims the Trident without the Links ever meeting him face-to-face (and once again may have accomplished this before the main plot even started), and is already Ganon when the Links catch up to him at the very end of the game). The only game where Ganondorf and Pig Ganon explicitly show up in the same story is Ocarina of Time, where Ganondorf transforms right in front of Link as a last-ditch effort to take him down; Puppet Ganon from The Wind Waker isn't actually Ganon, while Beast Ganon from Twilight Princess, while undoubtedly Ganon in the flesh, and clearly a porcine (i.e. pig-based) being, is not the same Ganon as the one seen in the classic games (quadrupedal instead of bipedal, no weapons aside from its own massive body, minimal use of magic (contrast Beast Ganon's portal shenanigans to Pig Ganon's spell-slinging and active teleportation in games like The Legend of Zelda I and A Link to the Past — Pig Ganon uses magic as an offensive and mobility tool, while Beast Ganon only uses it for dodges and feints)).

This was longer than it needed to be...

K. Rool was dominant everywhere in the world. Source Gaming had a giant collective data poll they gathered from other polls all across the internet in almost all the different regions in the world and in their Japanese poll, K. Rool was ranked number 1. K. Rool was Japan's Ridley believe it or not.

I can believe it. He wasn't one of my primary wants, though he was always a character I would have been happy to see making it in. I never predicted that he would end up becoming one of my mains, though.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

On the subject of Classic Pig Ganon, do you reckon Calamity Ganon counts as an instance of Pig Ganon? Either way, we can’t call it an instance of Ganondorf. There's also a couple of games where Ganondorf kinda shows up, but turns into Pig Ganon offscreen without the player ever actually seeing him as Ganondorf (specifically A Link to the Past, where Ganondorf transforms long before Link even gets involved in the plot (and if you count Aganhim as Ganon, that still isn't Ganondorf), and Four Swords Adventures, where Ganondorf is four steps ahead of the Links throughout the plot after his involvement is revealed, claims the Trident without the Links ever meeting him face-to-face (and once again may have accomplished this before the main plot even started), and is already Ganon when the Links catch up to him at the very end of the game). The only game where Ganondorf and Pig Ganon explicitly show up in the same story is Ocarina of Time, where Ganondorf transforms right in front of Link as a last-ditch effort to take him down; Puppet Ganon from The Wind Waker isn't actually Ganon, while Beast Ganon from Twilight Princess, while undoubtedly Ganon in the flesh, is not the same Ganon as the one seen in the classic games (quadrupedal instead of bipedal, no weapons aside from its own massive body, minimal use of magic).

This was longer than it needed to be...

Well I was just saying that Pig Ganon does deserve to be in the roster even more so because of
Ganondorf still being a semi-clone. We have 3 Links and 2 Zeldas, so why not 2 Ganons?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

So far every argument that I've seen against Kirby getting more newcomers can be applied to every other series in the game. Most arguments against Kirby at this point are BS. Here's what I've seen most:

1. "Kirby already has it's three timeless characters, can't you be happy with that?"
   1. Response: "Ah, I see. Ganondorf should be the only Zelda fighter." --If franchises in Smash only got their timeless fighters Mario would only have and Fire Emblem wouldn't have any of the fighters it currently has.
2. "Kirby is fine with three fighters."
   1. Response: The series has sold between 38 and 40 million sales. That's more than most other series in Smash. Of the non-discontinued series currently in Smash (that aren't Smash itself obviously), Kirby currently sits behind only (The Wii series and Game and Watch obviously being discontinued). I'd argue that certainly constitutes more than three fighters.
3. "Most of the Kirby characters are one-offs."
   1. Response: A lot of fighters were "one-offs" when they were added. Some of them are still one offs. Some of the fighters don't even exist. Besides, most Kirby characters that are being pitches as newcomers....aren't one offs.
4. "They wouldn't be unique in Smash."
   1. Response: Please explain to me how any of the Kirby characters people want as fighters would be remotely clone-ey to a fighter we currently have.

Anything I miss?

 

[RetrogamerMax]

So far every argument that I've seen against Kirby getting more newcomers can be applied to every other series in the game. Most arguments against Kirby at this point are BS. Here's what I've seen most:

1. "Kirby already has it's three timeless characters, can't you be happy with that?"
   1. Response: "Ah, I see. Ganondorf should be the only Zelda fighter." --If franchises in Smash only got their timeless fighters Mario would only have and Fire Emblem wouldn't have any of the fighters it currently has.
2. "Kirby is fine with three fighters."
   1. Response: The series has sold between 38 and 40 million sales. That's more than most other series in Smash. Of the non-discontinued series currently in Smash (that aren't Smash itself obviously), Kirby currently sits behind only (The Wii series and Game and Watch obviously being discontinued). I'd argue that certainly constitutes more than three fighters.
3. "Most of the Kirby characters are one-offs."
   1. Response: A lot of fighters were "one-offs" when they were added. Some of them are still one offs. Some of the fighters don't even exist. Besides, most Kirby characters that are being pitches as newcomers....aren't one offs.
4. "They wouldn't be unique in Smash."
   1. Response: Please explain to me how any of the Kirby characters people want as fighters would be remotely clone-ey to a fighter we currently have.

Anything I miss?

You got it spot on.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

You got it spot on.

Glad to know!

 

[Acemania]

Being the madman I am, I have decided to compile all of the Kirby based Sakurai bias evidence I could find into one big list. Also, I decided to categorize everything based on fighters, Spirits, Music etc. Feel free to add anything I missed!

Fighters- There are only three Kirby fighters, Kirby, Dedede, and Meta Knight, all of which are from Sakurai games. Kirby seems to be based on his super star design, which explains why his eyes are so small in this game. Dedede's design is based on his classic look, which is why he appears much bigger and goofier in Smash than he does in the modern Kirby games.

Music- The only non Sakurai affiliated remixes in Smash are 02 and the Squeak Squad theme, which is essentially nothing compared to the countless remixes from Adventure and Super Star. Every modern song is lazily ripped straight from the source games.

Stages- Dreamland, Green Greens, Fountain of Dreams, Halberd, Dreamland GB, and Great Cave Offensive are all from Sakurai games. There are absolutely NO stages from non Sakurai games.

Items/Assist Trophies- Knuckle Joe, Kawasaki, Nightmare Wizard, and all of the Kirby series items are all from Sakurai games.

Bosses- Marx is the only Kirby boss and is from Super Star. His design in Ultimate completely ignores any changes to his appearance in SS Ultra. An example of this is how Ultra changed the ends of Marx's wings from spearhead shapes to heart shapes. However, Ultimate ignored this alteration and made them simple spearheads again.

Spirits- While there are a few modern Kirby spirits, many of them don't even have a spirit battle and must be unceremoniously bought at a shop. Bandana Dee is also just an enhanced waddle dee in this game, which is an inexcusable sin.

Trophies- The only modern Kirby trophies were Magolor, Galacta Knight, and the Lor Starcutter. The way you unlock them can also make it very easy to miss them.

 

[Captain Shades]

Nice list Acemania , I think you perfectly summarized why modern representation is so bad, like even the Kirby spin-off Air Ride gets more attention than most modern Kirby titles in Smash.

Dedede's design is based on his classic look, which is why he appears much bigger and goofier in Smash than he does in the modern Kirby games.

Honestly, while a little hypocritical, I’m actually glad Dedede kept his classic look. Sorry, but all modern 3D renders of the character look off with the worst offenders being the 3DS titles. RTDL and Star Allies look okay, but honestly I wish the Kirby team would stick to the Smash design rather than the other way around as they always make Dedede look tiny and more serious in modern titles when he really is one of the most expression filled characters Nintendo has created. I kind of think the beak is what is so off putting about the modern designs, it always looks way to small, yet bulkier than the original which really throws off Dedede’s expressions. The hat being lower also makes the more eye directed expressions less noticeable. Maybe this is just me, but I swear all modern Dedede designs just look weird while Smash has this natural look that tells you everything you need to know about the character.

 

[Dig Dug]

Bosses- Marx is the only Kirby boss and is from Super Star. His design in Ultimate completely ignores any changes to his appearance in SS Ultra. An example of this is how Ultra changed the ends of Marx's wings from spearhead shapes to heart shapes. However, Ultimate ignored this alteration and made them simple spearheads again.

The ends of Marx's wings have always been heart shaped. In his Super Star sprites, they fluctuated been round and angular depending on his movement, but in his official art they're very clearly intended to be heart shaped. SSU just made them more pronounced.

Honestly, while a little hypocritical, I’m actually glad Dedede kept his classic look. Sorry, but all modern 3D renders of the character look off with the worst offenders being the 3DS titles.

He always felt off to me, too. In RTDL and the 3DS games, he was all tiny and hunched over all the time. They fixed it in Star Allies, but now he has this thousand yard stare going on...

 

[Acemania]

The ends of Marx's wings have always been heart shaped. In his Super Star sprites, they fluctuated been round and angular depending on his movement, but in his official art they're very clearly intended to be heart shaped. SSU just made them more pronounced.

I don't mean to start an argument, but I looked back at the gameplay and his artwork and they were definitely intended to be spearhead shaped. Even the Kirby wiki noted that they were changed to hearts in Ultra. If it wasn't changed, they wouldn't have mentioned it.

 

[Acemania]

Honestly, while a little hypocritical, I’m actually glad Dedede kept his classic look. Sorry, but all modern 3D renders of the character look off with the worst offenders being the 3DS titles. RTDL and Star Allies look okay, but honestly I wish the Kirby team would stick to the Smash design rather than the other way around as they always make Dedede look tiny and more serious in modern titles when he really is one of the most expression filled characters Nintendo has created. I kind of think the beak is what is so off putting about the modern designs, it always looks way to small, yet bulkier than the original which really throws off Dedede’s expressions. The hat being lower also makes the more eye directed expressions less noticeable. Maybe this is just me, but I swear all modern Dedede designs just look weird while Smash has this natural look that tells you everything you need to know about the character.

I actually remember in the Kirby 20th anniversary book it mentioned that its difficult to find the perfect balance between his head and beak. I guess the yweren't joking!

 

[Dig Dug]

I don't mean to start an argument, but I looked back at the gameplay and his artwork and they were definitely intended to be spearhead shaped. Even the Kirby wiki noted that they were changed to hearts in Ultra. If it wasn't changed, they wouldn't have mentioned it.

They still look heart shaped to me in his artwork. But I'll drop it. This isn't really something I care to start an argument over, either. I just thought it was a bit of a stretch to label it as an intentional move on Sakurai's part to change them just to avoid using any trace of modern Kirby content. He's not that against it. Kirby himself even has animations based on the newer games, his victory dances coming to mind.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

He always felt off to me, too. In RTDL and the 3DS games, he was all tiny and hunched over all the time. They fixed it in Star Allies, but now he has this thousand yard stare going on...

After so much playing Smash it wasn't until Star Allies did my brothers and I realize that Dedede's hammer in the Kirby games is like half the size of the hammer he has in Smash. He's taller by proportion (less fat I guess) and his facial expressions are less defined.