Roy's potential.

[Strong Badam]

I just find it hilarious that someone go "Well, at least Roy is not as bad as Kibry or M2 or Pichu"
CONGRATULATIONS!

 

[Bing]

Roy's way too legit. He's got some breathing room bottom tier. Unlike those ****ty characters like Pichu, Bowser etc.

 

[odinNJ]

Falco russles my jimmies so hard. Its so hard to get a move in.

 

[Deleted member]

It's hard to punish when you're being forces to quickly approach due to missiles.

Also, Roy doesnt have an answer to a well spaced Ganon fair

Swat them.

DD/DED better. Roy can't beat Ganon's bair, but fair is pretty easily beaten, catch him out of the jump rather than trying to beat the move itself. It has decent start-up time.

anyone else who says roy is better than M2 should be banned for being an idiot.

Roy is MUCH better than Mewtwo. The irony here is that I used to be a moderator and I actually banned people specifically for being stupid.

 

[odinNJ]

I don't think this is a large enough concern for it to be a big deal. I don't think Roy struggles against Samus's aerials period just because of the angle that they hit at.

Probably true.

 

[darkoblivion12]

anyone else who says roy is better than M2 should be banned for being an idiot.

why are you always so angry?

 

[odinNJ]

He's been raging about m2 lately

 

[V3ctorMan]

Do I need to pull off some Roy awesomeness, like I did with Yoshi?









cuz I'll do it....








Also, I agree with Ripple. Roy is most definitely worse than Mewtwo, and Yoshi both... I play ALL 3 of these characters at a very competent level, and have done very well with these characters in a competetive setting....

If i need to prove something, I will do it.. n_n

 

[KirbyKaze]

Swat them.

DD/DED better. Roy can't beat Ganon's bair, but fair is pretty easily beaten, catch him out of the jump rather than trying to beat the move itself. It has decent start-up time.

It's pretty easy to dash dance grab Ganon's fair with Marth so I imagine Roy can do it too. Probably slightly tighter timing, but I can't imagine it being too bad.

If you want to be cute because you suspect <Ganon player> is still stuck in 2007, you can probably f-smash after they fair and cut through the jab / f-tilt that likely follows because Ganon players tend to try and cover their whiffed moves with more moves.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The only potential he has is playing the best keep out game possible in theory by stuffing approaches by outranging characters which his huge disjoint. Other than that, he has no potential. Even then, crouch canceling and no hitstun exist and every attack puts him at the disadvantage at low percents.

 

[Pogogo]

Its like garfield said. No pro player plays him. If there was an "taj's mewtwo" of roy, that would literally count as him being better. Cause at my level of play, his forward smash is pretty strong and counter is strong. But does that count as potential? They count for less and less at higher levels of play.

I believe this is the same for puff top tier as well. Thank godness for hbox cause without him no one would be playing that mofo at the highest level anymore and win. Then people would say I guess hes not top tier. I already feel peach moving up in the ranks. Higher level proof lower level argument. People say jiggs bair is op. So is peach's dsmash.

I still think its freaking cool how there is no metaknight in this game though. What's up with that?

 

[Ripple]

Also, I agree with Ripple. Roy is most definitely worse than Mewtwo, and Yoshi both... I play ALL 3 of these characters at a very competent level, and have done very well with these characters in a competetive setting....

If i need to prove something, I will do it.. n_n

Finally! Someone else agrees with me. I also play a little m2 on the side

/totally not crazy.

 

[darkoblivion12]

You're not totally crazy, I think m2 does have an advantage, but i don't think it's like you say (70/30? i think you said).

Anyways, I don't play against m2 much so i can't offer much on the subject.

 

[vZakat]

Roy has bad match ups against mewtwo and yoshi, but that doesn't mean he's worse than them overall.

All this talk of people saying Roy sucks makes me want to play again. >_>

 

[Ripple]

you guys REALLY need to keep track of what conversation is going on. try reading things

 

[Bing]

Hey Ripple, how far are you in FFX?

 

[Ripple]

just got Ixion

 

[Bing]

ugh, Im at Seymour Flux. ****s ****ing hard. 70k HP and has attacks that can 1-hit single people and his cleaver attack does 2500 to all 3.

 

[Oneupsalesman]

To be honest, I really think that any character can be used well, it depends on your play-style. Yes, plenty of characters will be better in ceartain ways, tiers show you what characters have the most advantage. But I've seen people play amazingly with Bowser. It just takes a LOT more practice to get good with a low-tier, but it's not impossible.

 

[R:U:N]

To be honest, I really think that any character can be used well, it depends on your play-style. Yes, plenty of characters will be better in ceartain ways, tiers show you what characters have the most advantage. But I've seen people play amazingly with Bowser. It just takes a LOT more practice to get good with a low-tier, but it's not impossible.

While it might be true that you can PLAY well with a low tier if you really work at it, each character only has so much potential to be used competitively due to limits of the actual construction of their character.
Take a look at Roy, a fastfaller that takes a painful amount of hitstun (making him easily gimped and a huge combo bag), and has a moveset of low-damage moves that don't combo well at all, most of which need to be sweetspotted if you don't want to be punished in your lag (and sometimes you still can be if you do sweetspot)
Then look at Marth, a somewhat floaty character with average hitstun (less-easily gimped/comboed, better recovery) and a moveset of long-range moves that combo brilliantly and do a great job of racking up damage and KOing, sometimes even when they aren't sweetspotted.
That's not to say that Player A who's really good with Roy can't beat Player B who's not a great player, even though he's playing Marth, but when it comes down to it, in competitive play, skill levels really even out, and then other factors become more important, such as what characters are being used.

TL;DR: You can only become so good with a character because of limits in his construction

 

[KirbyKaze]

To be honest, I really think that any character can be used well, it depends on your play-style. Yes, plenty of characters will be better in ceartain ways, tiers show you what characters have the most advantage. But I've seen people play amazingly with Bowser. It just takes a LOT more practice to get good with a low-tier, but it's not impossible.

Hahahaha

Oh, we will break you

 

[Oneupsalesman]

^.....nah.

 

[odinNJ]

I play roy and I know that ill never win tournies with him. But he's still awesome

 

[Deleted member]

I play roy and I know that ill never win tournies with him. But he's still awesome

I've won tournaments with roy lmao just like older new york or pennsylvania area regionals.

 

[exarch]

Well yea if you play in a trash region you can win with any character.
~tHe cAlLoUtT~

Also sup guyz my name is Grafeld

 

[Ripple]

Its like garfield said....

Also sup guyz my name is Grafeld

not sure if you spelled your own name wrong, or you have a crazy name and people misunderstand...

 

[odinNJ]

It's hard to do well with Roy at a tournament with tec0, swiftbass, Jman, Hax, and M2K coming sometimes

 

[Bing]

It's hard to do well with Roy at a tournament with tec0, swiftbass, Jman, Hax, and M2K coming sometimes

I know your pain

Its hard to win tournaments featuring KK,Unknown,I.B,Weon-X, Idea and various other solid players. Raynex used to attend until like December.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Pshhhhhhhhhhhh

All of those players are E.Z.

Spoiler

not really... >.>;



<3 you guys

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

People (KK), stop being ****ing *******s at Bing. I don't think he meant the "tear apart" or "wreck" thing literally. No sarcasm. Also Bing, I think I understand what you meant but you shouldn't put yourself down by implying "tear and wreck my posts because I know nothing".
Because you know, people might just do that (and did).

I think you had several good points which I agree with, at least.

Responses in bold.

I wrote this so people like Umbreon could tear at apart. Im basing this whole thing off of what Knowledge I think I have. So please wreck it so I can correct my errors.

Why Roy should potential be lower on the tier list.

Characters below him on the tier list such as Mewtwo and Yoshi I find have better and more consistent option in general MU's. Roy has an almost non-existent offstage game. You might get a dropoff fair on a Fox/Falco/Falcon in a poor recovery situation, but for the most part nothing.

In my opinion Yoshi is definitely better than Roy and I also agree Mewtwo is better than Roy. It's just the fact that Roy is easier to pick up because Mewtwo is weird, and therefore Roy is more commonly used. Playing Roy is pretty straighforward, given that he has little options (Dtilt/Grab/SideB). Roy's aerials suck, they only combo at very high percents and you want your opponent dead sooner.
The good thing Roy has is decent matchups vs. spacies. Oh well, at least on FD. And vs. Fox.

Mewtwo has his bair and floatiness so he has a fantastic off-stage game. Its pretty straight forward..
Mewtwo has dair which can be used to combo onstage and ko off stage as a spike.

Mewtwo has Taj, nuff said.


Zelda has fair/bair. A move that kos rather early and can also be used in succession. Zelda does have a spike in Dair which even though its not that fantastic, is a Spike none-the-less. Zelda's koing ability is a lot better in general.

Zelda is definitely better at KOing than Roy.


Both Mewtwo and Roy have u-throws that can get a much needed ko that you can seem to get, however Mewtwo does have b-throw.

Roy's combo game is very character specific, and only comprizes of a few moves, his aerials are not very effective with the exclusion of fair and even uair...and I suppose dair which can be used to pop a character up. So I suppose its actually alright, nair becomes of less use because of how fast he falls.. but at the same time that can come in handy.

Nair is actually pretty good move and it has its' uses. Since Roy's aerials are garbage, this doesn't say much though. Dair is decent OoS but easily punished.


Yoshi's also has sort of a character specific Combo game BUT his has more options, His tilts are fantastic and so are his aerials. So once a Yoshi gets going, gtfo.

I totally agree.


Zelda's combo game is rather poor... but her metagame is more geared towards proper spacing anyways.

I totally agree.


Now lets look at some Positives of Roy

His reverse up-b is good for inclose combat when you need that ko

Already addressed. It's also good vs. GaW since he weights as much as Jigglypuff. Oh and Pichu too.


Tech chase grabs are great, both f-throw and b-throw work really well.

Dthrow is way better than Fthrow and Bthrow is most situations. Dthrow -> Dtilt.


Against spacies and other fast fallers you can chaingrab u-throw for a little bit THEN tech chase(easier way to build those first few percent)

Good point, I don't see this used too often.


Relatively easy combos to perform at low percents, all starting with a d-tilt LOL.Mind you this also gets ***** by CC.

Unless fast fallers, Roy's combos are more like...not combos at all, they are Brawl like followup-thingys where you mix Dtilt->fair/nair (2 hit only), Grab and SideB.

SH fair is great for keeping pressure on a character and pushing them back.

I wouldn't call it "great" by any means, it's pretty bad. Of course you could Fair on their shield, bait a shieldgrab and dash dance -> punish. As for shield pressure, which doesn't exist btw, you want to poke with dtilt and follow up (e.g. if they roll) with wavedash -> dash -> punish.


I dunno I was on a roll writing lots, then got distracted by issues here at work and lost my train of thought

Let me know what you think.

OH right, the verdict.

Tier should be switch to be more like this:

Zelda Tied
Roy Tied
Mewtwo
Yoshi

Didn't you just make arguments for Yoshi and Mewtwo being better than Roy?

It's hard to do well with Roy at a tournament with tec0, swiftbass, Jman, Hax, and M2K coming sometimes

Such silly johns

 

[KirbyKaze]

People (KK), stop being ****ing *******s at Bing. I don't think he meant the "tear apart" or "wreck" thing literally.

What did I say that was so horrible that you feel the need to white knight this? >_>

 

[odinNJ]

Such silly johns

I've Invented a new kind of johning, the "I lost because he s better"

 

[Bing]

hmmm


Thanks Novi. But KK wasnt being a douchebag or anything, its just KK pointing out an obvious mistake.

I really do want people to tear apart what I wrote. I mean if its wrong its wrong and I want to learn more and fix that. Thanks for the back up though lol I do appreaciate it.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I've Invented a new kind of johning, the "I lost because he s better"

Lol! Actually I was joking about that with a friend two of weeks ago.
The most legit john of all time.

@KK, I apologize. I felt your posts towards Bing were arrogant and I proceeded to overreact.


Roy is cool, I need to dig up some videos

 

[odinNJ]

Please do ^^ and I'll try to post some soon. My stupid splitters haven't shipped yet for dazzle

 

[Ripple]

I randomly found a set I played with bunbun almost 2 years ago. fun set. you get to see what I looked like when I was at my prime

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDvKXcjom8s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX9j3Otvrq4&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbzpvW_EV68&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL3QqQl2MQY&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLm5lP4RCyg&feature=relmfu

 

[odinNJ]

Does anyone have any insights on this mathup, I'd assume the nair makes it go to Kirby.
But idk

 

[Bing]

I just want to get more stuff recorded. Every tournament set that I've had recorded I've been trashed.

Aka 2 singles sets. 1 against Shroomed. 1 against Weon-X

For teams, I have 1 recorded, lost pretty convincingly.

 

[odinNJ]

I have a question. How many actual Roy mains are left? Ripple just switched, neos long gone. Vman alts him.

 

[KirbyKaze]

@KK, I apologize. I felt your posts towards Bing were arrogant and I proceeded to overreact.

This disappoints me. But okay, sure. Apology accepted. BFFs?



@ Bing

I tried to properly dissect your post. I couldn't. There are three major issues:

1) Information is largely wrong
2) How the information is framed is poor
3) The conclusion you make doesn't make sense based on the information you've presented

The first one is really obvious. Stuff like: Yoshi has a really character-specific combo game, Mewtwo has better options in neutral compared to Roy in a general sense, Roy has no offstage edgeguarding except fair, Zelda's lack of a combo game doesn't matter because her game is based around spacing, etc. All of that is wrong. Most of the data in the post is actually just wrong.

The second problem has to deal with how the information is presented. For huge sections of the post, it's honestly just a mass of information, where nothing is fleshed out or explained. A statement like, "Roy's offstage edgeguarding sucks" is made, but then nothing is stated further. None of the advantages of the different characters' edgeguarding styles are framed in relation to how it affects play vs the top characters' recoveries, different general styles of recoveries, or anything. It's just a mass of data. Why is this data relevant? What about onstage edgeguarding? Not only is the argument unclear (or implied at best), it's missing crucial pieces of information (which ties to first point, where most of the data is wrong).

Finally, at the end of the post, after much bashing of Roy's limitations and the glorification of whatever it is Mewtwo does onstage, we conclude that Roy should probably be where he is on the tier list in spite of how the post began with, "Roy should be much lower". The data that has been comparative has mostly been framed to show how Yoshi, Mewtwo, and Zelda are better than Roy. But then at the end, Roy is still somehow better than two of them and tied with Zelda? Why? How did someone come to this conclusion after believing the rest of the post?