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Roy's potential.

odinNJ

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This should probably be a poll but.

Recently there have been arguments on where Roy belongs on the tier list.
I personally have faith in him and his cardboard sword and think he should be Bottom of f tier.

I mean, his tech chashing is too nice for him to be G, but he has some of the worst matchups in the game.

So what do all my Roy comrades think?
Good Awful or too awesome to be legal (lol).

I'm sorry if this thread is in any way in the wrong place. A bad topic. Illegal. And I'm sure I will get in trouble for something (don't get angry pls im relatively new)
But anyways, Discuss!


Edit: opinions
Roy is not that bad. I'd money match most of you w/ roy to show you. Most roys aren't that good but he is SLIGHTLY underrated imo (nowhere near worst character).
roy has 3-5 literally unwinnable MUs.

how is he not the worst character in the game?

this is coming from a roy main of 3-4 years
roys easily the worst in the game and only looks decent because no1 knows how to play against him
 
D

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roy is definitely above bowser, pichu, ness, GAW, kirby, yoshi, mewtwo. I don't think he's any better than that though. whether he's better than zelda or not is debatable, they're pretty close.

roy is carried almost exclusively by his dash dance, good grab range, and respectable edge guarding. modern players are awful at dashdancing so roy is probably underrated for the time being.
 

Bing

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I wrote this so people like Umbreon could tear at apart. Im basing this whole thing off of what Knowledge I think I have. So please wreck it so I can correct my errors.

Why Roy should potential be lower on the tier list.

Characters below him on the tier list such as Mewtwo and Yoshi I find have better and more consistent option in general MU's. Roy has an almost non-existent offstage game. You might get a dropoff fair on a Fox/Falco/Falcon in a poor recovery situation, but for the most part nothing.

Mewtwo has his bair and floatiness so he has a fantastic off-stage game. Its pretty straight forward..
Mewtwo has dair which can be used to combo onstage and ko off stage as a spike.

Yoshi can sort "hangup" or "suspend" in the air for nairs, also has fair and bair to go along with a solid second jump.

Zelda has fair/bair. A move that kos rather early and can also be used in succession. Zelda does have a spike in Dair which even though its not that fantastic, is a Spike none-the-less. Zelda's koing ability is a lot better in general.

Both Mewtwo and Roy have u-throws that can get a much needed ko that you can seem to get, however Mewtwo does have b-throw.

Roy's combo game is very character specific, and only comprizes of a few moves, his aerials are not very effective with the exclusion of fair and even uair...and I suppose dair which can be used to pop a character up. So I suppose its actually alright, nair becomes of less use because of how fast he falls.. but at the same time that can come in handy.

Yoshi's also has sort of a character specific Combo game BUT his has more options, His tilts are fantastic and so are his aerials. So once a Yoshi gets going, gtfo.

Zelda's combo game is rather poor... but her metagame is more geared towards proper spacing anyways.

Now lets look at some Positives of Roy

His reverse up-b is good for inclose combat when you need that ko

Tech chase grabs are great, both f-throw and b-throw work really well.

Against spacies and other fast fallers you can chaingrab u-throw for a little bit THEN tech chase(easier way to build those first few percent)

Relatively easy combos to perform at low percents, all starting with a d-tilt LOL.Mind you this also gets ***** by CC.

SH fair is great for keeping pressure on a character and pushing them back.

I dunno I was on a roll writing lots, then got distracted by issues here at work and lost my train of thought

Let me know what you think.

OH right, the verdict.

Tier should be switch to be more like this:

Zelda Tied
Roy Tied
Mewtwo
Yoshi
 

KirbyKaze

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Roy's grab (and all manner of methods he has to get that grab) is probably more reliable and consistent vs many important characters than whatever neutral game you think Mewtwo has (but probably doesn't).

Mewtwo's a really limited character.
 

Strong Badam

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"His reverse Up-B is good for inclose combat when you need that KO"

...what?
 

KirbyKaze

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Maybe you shouldn't be making posts about Roy's character potential if you're still getting Marth and Roy mixed up :x
 

Mahone

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I thought Kumqu@t settled this argument a while ago...

Basically Roy's down tilt takes care of 3/4 of the cast, Roy can 1HKO Jiggs, and has pretty gimpy edgeguards, similar to Marth. He can chaingrab fastfallers and 0-death them if he techchases correctly at the end. Fsmash is stupid powerful if you space it right. You can combo into it too, just like Marth's tipper.

Roy's counter can be insanely powerful and if you always know when your opponent is going to hit you, you're pretty much unstoppable. Kumquat basically just has ridiculous mindgames and counters the **** out of everybody, and spaces up+Bs perfectly on Jiggs players for insta-KOs.

check out his combo video "kumqu@t makes me kum", some of the dtilt combos are just bananas.
 

odinNJ

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"SH fair is great for keeping pressure on a character and pushing them back." wrong, this is how you get *****
 

Ripple

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I will tellyou right now that roy is worse than m2, yoshi, and zelda.

It honestly comes down to that roy getshis *** handed to him in too many matchups to warrent a place above those characters.

Ill write more later

:phone:
 

darkoblivion12

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I will tellyou right now that roy is worse than m2, yoshi, and zelda.

It honestly comes down to that roy getshis *** handed to him in too many matchups to warrent a place above those characters.

Ill write more later

:phone:
You're not taking into account how much those other characters get their ***** handed to them in bad matchups. Low tiers are low tiers for a reason: they have a couple of really ****ty matchups and a couple of glass cannon matchups.

Take a look at zelda. She gets ***** by fox, falco, marth, shiek, and arguably falcon. She goes even-ish with low mobility characters and low pressure characters.

We get ***** by shiek, peach, ganon, IC's, and samus. We go even-ish with spacies (a huge plus), falcon, and several other MU's.
 
D

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I wrote this so people like Umbreon could tear at apart.
I only post for self-gain, not for anyone else. I didn't read the rest of your post, but I'm assuming that you said something conflicting to something that I said, which makes you wrong.
 

Ripple

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They don't lose as bad to their bad match ups as we do to ours
 

exarch

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THIS IS A BAD THREAD /infracts everyone

Bing, I just... smh. You post has an implicit understanding that strong aerials are necessary to be good. Roy has a lot more going for him than just his amazing priority aerials which do terrible damage.

Biggest problem with Roy right now/for a long time is that not one single top-level player plays him. Sethlon is the best.

I don't even know why I'm wasting my keyboard on this thread.
 

Ripple

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Let's break down how Roy does vs. his worst MU


70:30 vs. sheik
75:25 vs marth
85:15 vs. peach
70:30 vs Samus
0:100 vs. ICs Don't say this MU is even remotely possible
70:30 vs Ganon

and that's not even counting that Roy actually loses to Mewtwo at least 70:30 and slightly loses to kirby of all characters.
 
D

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lolllllll roy vs ICs is pretty terrible

I think marth is worse than sheik for roy actually, at least you can kinda dashdance gay sheik?

i don't think samus or ganon are that bad.
 

odinNJ

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Samus. Cc destroys Roy. Projectiles. Cant combo of finish. More CC

Ganon. 0 to death Cg and incredible gimping.
 

KirbyKaze

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Samus - You can't CC grab and f-smash. Or when airborne.

Ganon - Ganon sucks at landing grab and doesn't have a direct counter to good dash dances.
 

odinNJ

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Samus: Roy will never be airborne any way. Dsmash dtilt I didn't say grab or fsmash

Ganon. Can CC grab any approach. What's Roy gonna do, projectile him?
 

KirbyKaze

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Samus: Roy will never be airborne any way. Dsmash dtilt I didn't say grab or fsmash

Ganon. Can CC grab any approach. What's Roy gonna do, projectile him?
I'm gonna guess the first "Roy" is supposed to be "Samus". Roy can do a ghetto version of what Marth does vs that kind of play and toss them up (and then protect the landing area - for Roy I think this works better with platforms but I dunno). Samus cannot CC Roy's grab or f-smash (productively). Roy can shield punish a good chunk of her ground moves too (like most characters).

As for Ganon... do you have any idea how bad Ganon's grab range is? What's Roy gonna do about Ganon's CC grab? The same thing every character with decent range does against low range crouch punishes - outspace it! He can also just grab since his speed is way better than Ganon's and his grab range is way better. I guess Ganon can jump around in order to circumvent some of this, but it's still not a direct counter to the dash dance that sets up all of this because... Ganon can't approach from the air. Or in general.
 
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ganon can dair grab and that's pretty lol but honestly roy struggles with ganon's wall of limbs on small stages like YS more than ganon's chaingrabs.

dashdance better.

KK nailed roy vs samus. pretty much you grab and go with it. samus is just as low tier as you are after an upthrow.
 

odinNJ

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Roy gets outprioritzed and outranged above him. It's hard to punish when you're being forces to quickly approach due to missiles.

Also, Roy doesnt have an answer to a well spaced Ganon fair
 

KirbyKaze

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Roy gets outprioritzed and outranged above him. It's hard to punish when you're being forces to quickly approach due to missiles.
Your first sentence is simply wrong. Roy has reasonable priority and priority above him, and reasonable priority and range above & in front of him. Samus does not have as good priority below her as Roy does above him simply because her moves below her do not hit low.

Missiles are annoying but she cannot throw them around in close combat without incurring risks. Roy has to be relatively close to Samus in order to do anything productive anyway and is fast enough to close the gaps.

odinNJ said:
Also, Roy doesnt have an answer to a well spaced Ganon fair
Yes, Ganon's fair, bair, f-tilt, etc. are a nuissance to Roy because they match the range of his sword and do twice as much damage (or more). He's not totally helpless, though. Dash dance grab is pretty effective vs any sort of aerials by Ganon (especially approaching ones), and his side-B hits through all of Ganon's stuff if you outspace him. It's just hard because Ganon can fish for trades and... every trade is really bad for Roy.
 

odinNJ

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If samus goes to corners and is smart about not getting trapped. The bair can cut through any his fair, probably not flare blade. Also, if Roy tipps any steals it literally does nothing, range = nope

I agree samus doesn't absolutely **** him, but it's definitely not good for roy

And I forgot about samus"a dair. Directly above Roy she losses, but if she gets away he can't chase that well
 

KirbyKaze

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If samus goes to corners and is smart about not getting trapped.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you suggesting Samus should go to the corner?

The bair can cut through any his fair, probably not flare blade. Also, if Roy tipps any steals it literally does nothing, range = nope
Samus's bair is terrible at defending her from below. It hits at an angle that doesn't interact with most of Roy's moves when she's above him. For the context of this discussion, this is wrong. Like... actually just wrong. Also, Roy's fair can beat it if spaced half-decently simply because of priority...

I agree that tipped aerials do little for Roy, but Roy's spaced sweetspot is pretty lenient.

I agree samus doesn't absolutely **** him, but it's definitely not good for roy
I have not once commented upon the MU ratio, nor have I said it is Roy's favour. I have not said that it is less than horrible **** against Roy. I am talking simply about the strategies and counters.

And I forgot about samus"a dair. Directly above Roy she losses, but if she gets away he can't chase that well
Probably.
 

knightpraetor

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if roy gets samus above him, he has as much control as marth except with weaker coverage of following samus if she DJ out..but just chase along on the ground..you will be fine..marth does that lots of the time and it works great.

roy is worse than marth not because of his combo game but because his aerial openers are garbage, forcing him to stay grounded to get anything useful, thereby making him significantly easier to predict than marth and in particular...12 billion times worse when boxed out at the edge. even wavelanding the platform isn't nearly as good.

roy's shffl upairs are roughly equivalent to doc's upair combos...though the necessity to hit inside upair makes it rather annoyingly risky to fight against peach.

on a side note, i really wish marth had roy's dtilt instead of his own....

roy is god-awful of course, but nothing like m2 or kirby or pichu
 

Ripple

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anyone else who says roy is better than M2 should be banned for being an idiot.
 

Ripple

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because we know him better than anyone else?
 

odinNJ

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Most people are like "wull fox ***** him but his dtilt is gud I herd" then people like KK know enough about Roy so that their knowledge of other characters gives them an actual understanding of the matchups. I just know about Roy vs the top 7 and some low tiers. Ive not played many good spamuses.



About the backair, I meant that if samus escapes to the sides and throws out something Roy will be kept back for risk of a useless trade. I didn't mean that she could challenge the priority of a sweetspot
 

KirbyKaze

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About the backair, I meant that if samus escapes to the sides and throws out something Roy will be kept back for risk of a useless trade. I didn't mean that she could challenge the priority of a sweetspot
I don't think this is a large enough concern for it to be a big deal. I don't think Roy struggles against Samus's aerials period just because of the angle that they hit at.
 
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