Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[BKupa666]

I remember a vocal minority of the Donkey Kong fanbase was worried that Diddy wouldn't get into Brawl because he had been left out of Jungle Beat (the biggest DK game at the time), and a duo of Nintendo EAD developers called Rare's characters "not fresh enough" for today's audience. Granted, most people still felt he was a shoo-in, but the sense of relief that Diddy had -finally- been added seemed to outweigh any feelings that the DK franchise needed more content.

Here's the Jungle Beat article, which I had dug up previously to satirize a point someone made on GameFAQs about K. Rool being unlikely due to DKCR.

Q: Tell us about the characters.

Koizumi: All the characters outside of Donkey Kong and the banana are completely original. We don't really feel the past look of Donkey Kong was fresh enough for today. We really gave our new development team the chance to really create something unique and stylish.

The Banana for SSB4!

 

[FlareHabanero]

I will say that if my theory of Super Smash Bros. 4 being released in 2014 is correct, then I really hope the content snafu is fixed. 2014 is the 125th anniversary of Nintendo and the 15th anniversary of Super Smash Bros., so naturally I hope content takes a huge step up to make for a great anniversary celebration gift of sorts. In other words, not lazy rehashing but actually putting effort into material.

 

[---]

@Trophies: Meh, I personally I don't care if they borrow models or not, some of the Melee trophies were kinda ugly anyway especially the main character and retro trophies. My only problem is that Mario/Zelda/Metal Gear got some really dumb trophies, while Wario/Fire Emblem/Mother deserved more. Other could have been more diverse with more retro stuff, but it did pretty good.

Stickers were okay by me except for not using any official Pokemon artwork.

Content wise, no Wario Land, FE4/5, or using any Pokemon Spin-Off stuff bothered me. There should have been another Kirby and Star Fox stage as well.

Here's the Jungle Beat article, which I had dug up previously to satirize a point someone made on GameFAQs about K. Rool being unlikely due to DKCR.

Still is kinda dumb there was no K. Rool in DKCR, but it's nice to see some evidence that could calm worry warts down.

I remember mentioning originality as a possibility in the past as well, so it's especially nice to know that I was right.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

In response to this???
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=15246653#post15246653

Well my argument against Goroh being in isn't against a moveset. As far as Falcon goes, his moveset in general couldn't have been tough. He's a human. Give him some punches and kicks, and there you go.

My problem with Goroh is that I don't find him interesting whatsoever. My problem isn't with his moveset. So your prediction about my reaction to Goroh isn't accurate at all.

My original point is, that F-Zero shouldn't get a character just to have one, when there are several other characters from other franchises that would be better for the game in general. If I remember GX's story correctly, Goroh was hardly even a big deal in that one.

Clearly he's important to the series, but is he really necessary to Smash Bros.? I don't think so. I mean, if there is another F-Zero released before Smash 4, then ok. But for right now, I don't support him.

 

[ChronoBound]

I doubt another F-Zero will ever happen.

That minigame in Nintendo Land will probably be the closest we ever see to another game unfortunately.

 

[3Bismyname]

just give F-Zero a 3DS remake like they did with Star Fox

[COLLAPSE="Awesome pic is awesome"]

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[---]

Man this thread needs some Boost Power.

Spoiler

Toise's Super Money Pick:
Captain Falcon
Samurai Goroh
Black Shadow


One of my dark horse series, yes.

---

F-Zero in general:

Okay, not the brightest star. Only 6 games (plus one arcade and one BS SatellaView, but whatever), niche series, and hasn't seen a new game since 2004. A lot of people are gonna use that to explain the lack of new characters in Brawl, although I maintain that it's really just a matter of Sakurai whimsy.

Actually, I'm of the belief that a bigger focus on F-Zero here might inspire Takaya Imamura or someone else at EAD to take another stab at this series. Maybe even Sakurai after SSB4! Ah well, I keep my fingers crossed every E3.

Anywho, the lack of F-Zero characters in general hasn't gone unnoticed. It's something I see a lot whenever characters come up, even though most Smash fans don't know too much about the series. Their loss, says I.


*** Samurai Goroh ***

While adding two characters might be a stretch, adding one seems quite reasonable. If one is all we get, it'll be this guy. Basing this largely off of Sakurai's obvious focus on him in Smash and the fact that if you know anything about F-Zero, you know Samurai Goroh.


*** Black Shadow ***

Okay, first things first: **** Zelda fans. I play Ganon more than anyone in Smash, I missed him in Skyward Sword, and I love that he usually has the same VA as Donkey Kong. But good lord, I absolutely do not give a **** about him using a sword or shooting magic energy balls. It's ridiculous how many Zelda nerds want this guy in (over Goroh of course) because they want to fight Ganon "the right way." And it's just fight Ganon, not fight as him, they'd rather be Marth or Meta Knight or some other hero character. And where's this passion for Wario? He ended up way worse for no reason at all!

Bleah. Should've kept the Trident of Power and flaming bats anyway, oh well.

Now, the funny thing about Black Shadowdorf is that it'd be absolutely in character for him to fight exactly like Smash's Ganondorf. And that's including his Final Smash: just have Black Bull drop in from the sky, hop in, and blast off to the side.

Anyway, while I'm not a fan of his shallow support group nor having him in place of Goroh, I'd be pretty excited to see the dude appear regardless. Actually, you know what? Give Black Shadow the sword and magic. Or make them both based off of Falcon, that'd be funny too.


*** Jody Summer ***

This is a name most people don't know, although she's had trophies in Melee and Brawl. You'd probably see her in people's rosters all the time if F-Zero were more popular. In fact, my brother doesn't do the whole Smash speculation thing, but whenever I ask him about new characters, he always includes Goroh and Jody.

If it weren't for all the focus on Goroh and Black Shadow, I'd go with her.


**** Everything Else ****

Dr. Stewart/Pico: These two were part of the SNES quartet (along with Falcon and Goroh), although they never get as much focus in the games themselves. The series has a habit of making those four the only consistent starter characters, and that's pretty much all they have going for them.

Deathborn/other GX characters: Nope. Also Deathborn sucks.

Ryu Suzaku (AKA Rick Wheeler): Spoiler that you don't care about: he becomes Falcon at the end of the show and in Climax. If Sakurai didn't ignore anime stuff, he'd be a very fitting alt costume.

Jack Levin/Zoda/standard characters with big GP Legend roles: I wish, you guys would love Zoda.

Other GP Legend characters: You don't even know these exist.

Not the one I agree with the most, but it certainly reaches ya.

 

[BKupa666]

Man this thread needs some Boost Power.



Not the one I agree with the most, but it certainly reaches ya.

Where did this analysis come from? I'd certainly like to read more of it.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Well my argument against Goroh being in isn't against a moveset. As far as Falcon goes, his moveset in general couldn't have been tough. He's a human. Give him some punches and kicks, and there you go.

My problem with Goroh is that I don't find him interesting whatsoever. My problem isn't with his moveset. So your prediction about my reaction to Goroh isn't accurate at all.

My original point is, that F-Zero shouldn't get a character just to have one, when there are several other characters from other franchises that would be better for the game in general. If I remember GX's story correctly, Goroh was hardly even a big deal in that one.

Clearly he's important to the series, but is he really necessary to Smash Bros.? I don't think so. I mean, if there is another F-Zero released before Smash 4, then ok. But for right now, I don't support him.

My point bringing up Samurai Goroh wasn't to make a wild prediction of what you would say in the future. It was to show how 'EASY' it would be to make Samurai Goroh's potential move-set, by your criteria. Seeing how he and Captain Falcon BOTH come from the same scenario of being: Human, Bounty Hunters that appeared only in vehicles in thier games. But it never prevented Captain Falcon from being a decent character.

Being a unique/varied character should go without question. Even if I did wanted him for the sake of wanting more FZero reps; Regardless of the franchise, part of Sakurai's challenge with the type of game smash is to make interesting fighters out of the Nintendo cast.

The same argument can be made for adding more characters to an already well represented series. My main point isn't even about FZero, it was just an example of an under-rated series that could possibly use more reps.

My main point: I would prefer a variety of franchises (Popular to forgotten) rather than over saturating the roster with characters from one or two particular series.

Whether you support them or not they still are apart of Nintendo's IP catalog, and deserve the same amount of consideration as the rest of the potential roster.

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

I doubt another F-Zero will ever happen.

That minigame in Nintendo Land will probably be the closest we ever see to another game unfortunately.

F-Zero will see more games, same with Star Fox, 1080, and Wave Race

 

[Moon Monkey]

Behold!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT66kLCNx8U

 

[Arcadenik]

Where did this analysis come from? I'd certainly like to read more of it.

I think it was from the backroom.

 

[Izzet]

I haven't checked the tread in a while, but has anyone considered that if the 3ds fire emblem goes off really well with US/Japan that we may get a character from that game as an additional (or replacement) rep for FE? From what it sounds like, there will be a lot of customization in the new FE and didn't Sakurai say Smash 4 would have more to do with customization and the compatibility of the 3ds and wiiU would help that feature or something along those lines? *cough* I may have heard wrong though so this is just hazarding guesses on my part..

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Sakurai did say that there would be customizable features, but I don't really know that that being common between the two games really has any affect.

If Roy doesn't make it into Smash 4, then i'm sure Chrom will make it. I'd be fine with both actually lol.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Sakurai did say that there would be customizable features, but I don't really know that that being common between the two games really has any affect.

If Roy doesn't make it into Smash 4, then i'm sure Chrom will make it. I'd be fine with both actually lol.

I have feeling Chrom will get in. Roy has a good chance of returning though I think he might be an ALT costume, If he doesn't make it as a playable character.

BTW I responded on the last page incase you missed it.

 

[SmashShadow]

An F-Zero revival might be foreshadowed from Nintendo Land but who knows.

 

[---]

Where did this analysis come from? I'd certainly like to read more of it.

The Discussion Group (which is separate from the Backroom). Toise did a bunch of individual threads dedicated to each series for discussion as well as revealing his own personal roster. Most of them just summarize each series in a nut shell and are pretty agreeable in general, with some cheesy Toise humor thrown in for show.

Just for the heck of it I'll post the DK one in the K. Rool thread for ya. Not the most in depth one, but it doesn't have to be, it's DK.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Mother had very good content for a series that has only three games, two of which were Japan-only. It had two playable characters, two stages, two items, an Assist Trophy, and a boss. The only area where it got shafted were in the area of trophies in which all of its trophies were content that already had a model elsewhere in the game.

However, trophies in general were a step down from Melee. Much of the trophies in Brawl were model rips from other games. For example, much of Zelda's trophies were model rips from Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, much of Star Fox's trophies were model rips from Assault, much of DK's trophies were model rips from Bongo Blast, much of Fire Emblem's trophies were model rips from Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn, much of Kirby's trophies were probably model rips from Kirby GCN, much of Pokemon's trophies were model rips from Battle Revolution, much of F-Zero's trophies were model rips from GX.

F-Zero got it pretty bad too. Only had one character, two stages, and one Assist Trophy. No items and no bosses (though F-Zero could not have a boss anyway).

Wario was repped pretty well if you ignore the fact that they pretty much ignored the Wario Land series (which only was referenced with one sticker and maybe Overalls Wario).

Fire Emblem could have been been better. FE4 and FE5 received no content at all. The poor trophy selection was pretty much due to the poor (or rather lazy) trophy selection of Brawl in general.

Yoshi is the most spinoffy of the Mario spinoff series, so it lacking in content compared to other series is understandable.

Metroid received a good amount of content too (the only thing it needed was Ridley as a playable character). So did Kirby (whose content was perfect), as well was Star Fox (the low-polygon Andross Assist Trophy was a nice way to represent the original game).

So overall, the only three series I would say got the short end of the stick in terms of content were DK, F-Zero, and Wario (which was only because there was barely anything referencing the Wario Land series).

Hmmm.seems like there to lazy to backtrack to the chars roots for trophies and thats where its important though..THE ROOTS!!

F-Zero will see more games, same with Star Fox, 1080, and Wave Race

1080! omfg zomgg.. i remember that game haha the GC one was sick.

 

[MarioNPinkie]

Its probably just me but i just dont understand the hype with paper mario for sm4sh

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hmmm.seems like there to lazy to backtrack to the chars roots for trophies and thats where its important though..THE ROOTS!!

If Melee used their first models based upon(or from in some cases) their first games, Brawl having updated models makes perfect sense to me.

Then again, if you mean to have more trophies from some other series, no disagreements here. But it should depend which one. For Pokemon, I think they should have enough from each series, and should have a bit more from the newer series than the older ones. If only to advertise a bit.(don't lie, a lot of Trophies are big advertisements, but so were the mediocre Masterpieces)

It's important to celebrate Nintendo's history too, but it's also important to mention newer characters as well.

 

[Arcadenik]

Its probably just me but i just dont understand the hype with paper mario for sm4sh

Me either. It's probably over how unique a 2D Mario would be with paper properties, hammer attacks, and partners. I don't see the need to have a second Mario. I prefer to get another Mario character who isn't based on Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, nor Wario. IMO, Toad fits the bill. He is not aesthetically nor nominally inspired by preexisting Mario characters in the Mario main and spin-off games. And we already have two Mario-inspired characters (Luigi and Wario). Again, I repeat, I don't think we need another character who is based on Mario. That's why I'm personally not interested in Dr. Mario, Paper Mario, Waluigi, Baby Mario, Baby Luigi, Baby Wario, Metal Mario, Tanooki Mario, etc.

 

[MarioNPinkie]

Me either. It's probably over how unique a 2D Mario would be with paper properties, hammer attacks, and partners. I don't see the need to have a second Mario. I prefer to get another Mario character who isn't based on Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, nor Wario. IMO, Toad fits the bill. He is not aesthetically nor nominally inspired by preexisting Mario characters in the Mario main and spin-off games. And we already have two Mario-inspired characters (Luigi and Wario). Again, I repeat, I don't think we need another character who is based on Mario. That's why I'm personally not interested in Dr. Mario, Paper Mario, Waluigi, Baby Mario, Baby Luigi, Baby Wario, Metal Mario, Tanooki Mario, etc.

I feel P.Mario would be a waste of a roster spot IMO but doc i could potentially return at least as a costume (lol i hope)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sakurai already said Doc would not be a costume and he got into Smash as his own character because it was clone/full character or none.

Paper Mario plays entirely differently from Mario due to the Hammer mechanic, and varying degrees of spins, airplane transformations, and the ability to go 3D on his own(which would makes a cool Final Smash, imo). He's very unique, and could even take notes from the other rpg's, possibly.(then again, Mario's Smash A currently is similar to the Firehand in Mario & Luigi, but eh)

 

[Dark Phazon]

if anything i know it would be more clony but if luigi left smash was docs it would make him better as you said Mario fire and luigi electric in the saga series.

This threads dying down...same with everyones spirit...

 

[FlareHabanero]

I recall Sakurai saying that a Dr. Mario costume wouldn't work because the character shooting out fireballs would be apparently weird. You know, coming from the same guy that approved of Captain Falcon throwing flaming punches, Pit having duel blades from his bow, Pichu somehow knowing Skull Bash and Agility, Sheik shooting out needles and rope, Ice Climbers blowing out gusts of frost, and R.O.B. shooting out lasers and flying.

 

[Ember Reaper]

I recall Sakurai saying that a Dr. Mario costume wouldn't work because the character shooting out fireballs would be apparently weird. You know, coming from the same guy that approved of Captain Falcon throwing flaming punches, Pit having duel blades from his bow, Pichu somehow knowing Skull Bash and Agility, Sheik shooting out needles and rope, Ice Climbers blowing out gusts of frost, and R.O.B. shooting out lasers and flying.

Here's hoping his attitude changes at least a bit!

All those things are definitely weird compared to a different Mario shooting fire balls. Oh wait, he always does that

 

[PSIguy89]

has anybody else downloaded the FE Awakening demo yet? i am now~

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Luigi does not need Electric. Actually, Doc had that, but Luigi was not much of a clone anymore, just barely similar at that point, and he had a similar Smash A, but only in principle. In fact, while the others were open-palmed strikes, his was a Karate Chop or a Stab with his hand.

Luigi has been rather different, yet somewhat similar for quite some time, heh.

And his attitude should not change. Doctor Mario was his own playable character from his first appearance. Unlike Metal Mario who got downgraded to being an item combo in Melee, anyway.(in 64, Metal Mario, while a clone, has his own character file). In Melee, specifically, Sakurai applied the Metal Item permanently to Metal Mario(and any other Metal character where appropriate) instead. The difference is that Metal Mario was just a cool boss. Doctor Mario was his own playable character, and should stay that way.

Paper Mario was out way before then so that could've been a clone too. Clearly, he holds Dr. Mario in high regard, and I'm kinda proud that he treats him as his own character like he should be treated as.

 

[Deleted member]

You know, coming from the same guy that approved of Captain Falcon throwing flaming punches,

Falcon was a clean slate given that there is no indincation to what he could do outside his vehicle.

Pit having duel blades from his bow,

Pit had very little to work with from his home game, to which making something up to "modernize" him works out. I mean, Dedede never had a jet engine in his mallet, yet has one in Brawl. How come you don't mention THAT?

Pichu somehow knowing Skull Bash and Agility,

While a bit of an *** pull, there are often Event Pokemon that know moves they normally can't learn before they evolve. Best example is the Riolu that knows Aura Sphere.
Aside from that, Pichu is heavily limited otherwise in what it's capable of. Borrowing from his evolved form in order to work as a clone is feasible.
Also, Mewtwo cannot legitimately learn Teleport.

Sheik shooting out needles and rope,

Like Falcon, Sheik was a clean slate, as we never see her fighting though she is implied to HAVE been fighting. Also, Zelda was never capable of using the spells in her Specials; those were used by Link. Why are you not mentioning that?

Ice Climbers blowing out gusts of frost,

Again, a character (or characters) with very little to work with.

and R.O.B. shooting out lasers and flying.

R.O.B. shooting lasers isn't much of a stretch, considering how he works IRL. He sends beams from his eyes to the TV and back in order to properly work with the games he is used for. As for flying, are you really going to nitpick a made up recovery option? So what, is there issue with Bowser flying while spinning in his shell? Or DK somehow spinning to move through the air?

 

[Aurane]

I recall Sakurai saying that a Dr. Mario costume wouldn't work because the character shooting out fireballs would be apparently weird.

You recalled right, and it's just one of the few stupid things he has ever said.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Am gonna say it again, I just don't want to see Dr.Mario before we get an actual new Mario rep. Toad, Bowser Jr., Paper Mario, heck... Even Waluigi should take priority over him. If only for being more unique. If Dr.Mario gets in as a 6th rep, I'd be fine with that. Depending on roster size ofcoarse. And what other characters get in. If Dr.Mario makes it, but not King K.Rool or Mewtwo, I doubt I'll be getting the game.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Why is that?

Because Hideki Kamiya of Platinum Games is interested in it, not Retro Studios. It was mentioned via Twitter (specifically his account).

 

[yani]

Like Falcon, Sheik was a clean slate, as we never see her fighting though she is implied to HAVE been fighting.

And if I'm not mistaken, she has a knife in her artwork. She has a secret arsenal

 

[Diddy Kong]

Still, not quite as awesome as Impa.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

And if I'm not mistaken, she has a knife in her artwork. She has a secret arsenal

And quite secret assets.

And far more awesome than Impa. Cause she's Zelda, which makes her a main character.

And Dr. Mario was going to be in before any new Mario character and should be returned regardless of whether we get a new one or not, just like all veterans. I'd say, since he is already a Smash character, is more deserving than any newbies right now.

Same with all planned characters like Dixie. All of them are equally deserving.

Then we can get the newbies.

 

[Moon Monkey]

I would really like to see Luigi be more inline with his character for SSB4.
Up till now Luigi has been that wacky-jokey character for smash (Which Wario now fills). In his recent games games (Luigi's mansion, Mario Galaxy 2...) however, Luigi is a scaredy-cat (Read: Scared little biatch) that always finds himself in spooky scenarios. I mean Green Missile and Negative Zone are cool, but they really don't fit Luigi.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Negative Zone kinda fits him I think. It's literally being put in the shadows, and having to deal with all the phycological issues related to that. I felt it was very inspired to have that as his Final Smash.

Green Missile is a weird attack though. I'd want Luigi or Pikachu to have a new Side B, cause such moves both don't really fit their character, but one of them could keep it.

Down B really should become the Poltergeist though. Green fire balls is also pretty cool, but could need a buff in range and power. Would like the Thunder Hand to, but even the Mario and Luigi RPGs didn't include those powers to the Bros. after the first game so... Plus, it's a nice throwback to the Mario Bros. arcade.

Otherwise, I hope they make him even more unique. And make him fight even more cowardly and defensive. Feel Luigi should really emphasise on sweet spot attacks, much like his Up B. His moves would generally not have the knockback and power of Mario's moves, but if you hit the sweetspot, his true skill comes to show.

Because let's face it, Luigi is totally superiour to Mario.

Spoiler

Much like Impa clearly IS superiour to Sheik.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Luigi was scared in the SSE, but then again, his Smash personality was never the same as the one from the games.(it's not the same Luigi, as every character in Smash are... literally different people, except transformations like Zelda/Sheik where they're the same person. Still different characters, though.)

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't think they are different perse. Maybe throphies, came to life. But definitely drawn from their character in their respective games. Also, definitely NOT cannon to all universes.

Don't try to make Sheik fit in like that though. We know she shouldn't be there.

Zelda's Down B is basically a warp between time and space in Brawl.

Also I don't think the Forbidden 7 are more likely or more deserving than others. Outside of Mewtwo perhaps, I see none of the Forbidden 7 as likely candidates above new additions from their series. No, not even Roy and Dixie. They'd make great additional reps to Chrom and K.Rool though.

But with that said, Toon 'Sheik' can also get a spiritual revival as Impa. So if you wanna go that route...

 

[---]

Just got done with FE13's demo, you get the first two chapters of the game with 30 tries before the demo expires.

Mostly just paid attention to Chrom, can't say the character interests me all that much yet (probably because I skipped all the dialogues), but I can see him in Smash a little bit more now, can't see him having an interesting moveset yet but he does stand out a bit on his own due to color scheme they went with. Definitely a fusion between Marth and Ike, not just one of them specifically, is kind of a Fabio in a way IMO.

I wanna hear some other people's opinions (aka Chrono) on this.