Rolls seem problematic in this game

[PizzaWenisaur]

Yea I agree. Rolling and air-dodging are just too darn safe. Of course they aren't unstoppable, but rarely do I feel like shielding, air-dodging, and rolling was the wrong option in a specific scenario unlike in previous games.

Plus even when you read it properly, sometimes punishing it doesn't work. Like when you're charging a F-Smash and someone rolls into it, but because you don't have perfect timing they escape unscathed. Or when I'm Shulk and do a D-Smash predicting the roll, sometimes after they roll they can just shield or roll again despite the fact that they landed right on my hit-box.

Overall I think it's dumb - offensive options have been reduced and defensive options have become godlike for some reason. It's almost like if you don't want to get hit you don't have to.

And for those just saying we suck - watch a tournament and see how often people actually punish rolls.

 

[Thinkaman]

Zero is streaming at this very second. Go watch how many times a stock he rolls, as well as his other high-level opponents.

It's an extremely small number.

 

[theunabletable]

Zero is streaming at this very second. Go watch how many times a stock he rolls, as well as his other high-level opponents.

It's an extremely small number.

This is a poor appeal to authority. Really, it's the equivalent of saying in 2008 or 2009 "Why would we do something about camping on the ledge? Go look at any videos of top meta knights or G&Ws, you don't really see it much, it's obviously not a problem."

I'm saying that the issue with rolling ought to get worse from here, because there's very little to make it better or more punishable, there are just more scenarios to find to roll well in, and better players can learn to roll well (something that wasn't a skill in previous games; rolling was usually a sign of a terrible habit.) Saying that Zero or Nietono don't do it doesn't address what I"m talking about at all.

That may be a point to consider in 2 years or something when there's been metagame development, but here, it's redundant and irrelevant.


How about we play on wifi and test out your theory that rolling is fine?

 

[Sleek Media]

Isn't the entire point of a roll to move from one position to another somewhat safely? Why would you roll if every roll could be punished on sight? As it is, every roll can be punished at the end for a few frames, just like the spot dodge. True, online lag does make them a little stronger than normal, but it's nothing you can't work around. Learn to use the tools your character has, and judge when to throw a long hitbox like a dash attack, vs a short hitbox like a smash.

 

[Signia]

Isn't the entire point of a roll to move from one position to another somewhat safely?

Hahahahaha

no.

The point of rolls is to take a risk for the chance to get away if you dodge something. You shouldn't be able to get away for free!

 

[DaDavid]

I haven't found they're that difficult to punish if only because people tend to use them really predictably, at least online. It's annoying to get into a rolling match to be sure, but it isn't all that tough to force people to change their tune or get hit, except in certain match-ups.

I think one problem that is important is as TC mentioned: Good players used to avoid rolling because it was garbage. Now that it's good it's like most people aren't accustomed to using them all that well because it goes against their instincts.

 

[SirroMinus1]

This is a poor appeal to authority. Really, it's the equivalent of saying in 2008 or 2009 "Why would we do something about camping on the ledge? Go look at any videos of top meta knights or G&Ws, you don't really see it much, it's obviously not a problem."

I'm saying that the issue with rolling ought to get worse from here, because there's very little to make it better or more punishable, there are just more scenarios to find to roll well in, and better players can learn to roll well (something that wasn't a skill in previous games; rolling was usually a sign of a terrible habit.) Saying that Zero or Nietono don't do it doesn't address what I"m talking about at all.

That may be a point to consider in 2 years or something when there's been metagame development, but here, it's redundant and irrelevant.


How about we play on wifi and test out your theory that rolling is fine?

online is good but not perfect and just flat out bad if you wanna test something like this. If the connection isn't top notch then rolling becomes problematic to deal with. but if its offline then punishing rolls are really easy. Rolling is the best its ever been but if people just roll like its the new WD the people abusing it will just get destroyed

 

[Sleek Media]

Hahahahaha

no.

The point of rolls is to take a risk for the chance to get away if you dodge something. You shouldn't be able to get away for free!

EVERY action on this game carries a risk. Also, are you really that bad at punishing rolls?

 

[Prawn]

So because a bunch of random people on smashboards have trouble with rolling you want it changed?


The frame data might show it's a little harder/easier to punish but it is not anywhere near impossible or even "really hard" to punish rolls. Most of the time rolls are telegraphed reactions to particular situations that present themselves in a match. If you play a lot and you're good at reading and adapting you will be able to punish rolls. Will people sometimes get away with rolls even when you attempt to punish? Yeah, but that means you need to get good.


This thread is silly

 

[Prawn]

The fact that you know what they're going to do, and that the action has no hitbox, and moves them a specific range in a specific amount of time. It means it's on you to punish. It's easy and theory and hard in practice, play some for glory matches and don't care about winning just try and make them roll + punish. If you struggle at a particular concept devote more time to just that concept.

 

[theunabletable]

online is good but not perfect and just flat out bad if you wanna test something like this. If the connection isn't top notch then rolling becomes problematic to deal with. but if its offline then punishing rolls are really easy. Rolling is the best its ever been but if people just roll like its the new WD the people abusing it will just get destroyed

Right, and if the connection's bad, we'll throw it out.

Generally, the connection is actually really good. I get very little lag, especially compared to Brawl. I said in the past I'll give upfront wifi johns. Still, let's test it out. Let's see if our connection is good, decide beforehand if it's good or not, and then try it, right? We eliminate confirmation bias, and we can keep at it until we get a good connection.

That's a good way to test it, right?

It seems better than stating that there's nothing wrong with rolling, but dismissing upfront the ability to test it, anyways.

EVERY action on this game carries a risk. Also, are you really that bad at punishing rolls?

Are you?

This is really a borderline attack on character. I'm (and I would guess, he's) not talking about having personal difficulty with it above and beyond the average. Nor an inability to win against predictable players. I've gotten 115 wins straight on for glory in the past, I can beat ****ing awful players.

We're making an argument about specific aspects of rolls, that due to certain buffs, they are useable in an entirely new set and type of circumstances. (EDIT: Oh and coupled with, for me, a belief that this new set of circumstances is problematic/undesirable)

In the past to safely roll, you needed a read because it could often be punished on reaction. Now in order to punish rolls, you need a hard read, meaning you need to know that he's going to roll, which direction he's going to roll in, and the exact time within a pretty small window that he's going to do it, with no visual cues other than any habits the player has before rolling.

This is the argument that we're making, or at least I am. If it applies differently to you, let's test it! If it's still possible to punish them on reaction or soft read, let's try it out. I can't do it; I'll admit to that readily. I want to know if other people can, so let's try it out.

So because a bunch of random people on smashboards have trouble with rolling you want it changed?

This is a blatant mischaracterization of what anyone here is saying. Clear arguments have been made, none of which have a form anything like this, and I'm not going to point you in their direction. No one has made any major arguments that rolling needs to be changed, nor have any of the arguments been justified on the basis of the opinions of smashboards users at all.

The fact that you know what they're going to do, and that the action has no hitbox, and moves them a specific range in a specific amount of time. It means it's on you to punish. It's easy and theory and hard in practice, play some for glory matches and don't care about winning just try and make them roll + punish. If you struggle at a particular concept devote more time to just that concept.

Have you ever played a game called Red Hands? It's that game where one person kind of puts out their palms facing up, and another person puts their hands on top of the other's. The person on the bottom tries to slide their hands out, and then slap the top of the other player's hands. It sounds kind of odd in words, but I'm almost sure you've played it?

It's an interesting game in a context like this, because it's a situation where you know exactly what the other player is going to do, the difficulty is guessing the time, and pulling your hands back in time. If you're especially fast, or you're playing without prior contact (where your hands are just below the other player's, rather than touching the other player's,) you can't actually react to the player moving their hands. In the latter, it's impossible; reaction speed with eyes is simply too slow, at least if you're reacting to any motion of the hands.

What this results in is that you have to, by looking at their body language, their eyes, their habits, etc pull your hands back off purely a read, and you have to mentally commit to that read before they've ever started moving their hands. It's very, very hard to be on top in a situation like this.

The argument isn't that rolling can't be punished. It's that it seems that dealing with rolling is now closer to red hands than it was before, where in many cases, your reads have to be blind, and based on no hitconfirmation, just having prior knowledge on both what action they'll perform, and at what time (within a small window, whatever the window of vulnerability for rolls is) they'll do it at.



How about we test it? I can't really do it, so I'd love to see your technique and strats for punishing it when the rolling isn't done by someone who's touching the game for the second time in their life or w/e.

 

[Signia]

EVERY action on this game carries a risk.

What's your point?

Also, are you really that bad at punishing rolls?

No


How is that a response to my post?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

online is good but not perfect and just flat out bad if you wanna test something like this. If the connection isn't top notch then rolling becomes problematic to deal with. but if its offline then punishing rolls are really easy. Rolling is the best its ever been but if people just roll like its the new WD the people abusing it will just get destroyed

Frame data to prove it? Reality of some characters are desiring hard reads. Plausible because of the predictability of a rather infant online community. This won't go underutilized in tournaments.

 

[Teshie U]

Top players are likely exploring offensive options and setup in frienlies. No one really needs to practice rolling away. They will also pick the best characters and alleviate the problem that way. Obviously I'm not going to roll away from Pacman, Rosalina or Greninja repeatedly. My only gripe is that alot of otherwise good characters might wind up unviable if they can't punish roll aways.

This game feels pretty balanced surprisingly when people fight each other. Brawl and Melee definitely aren't that way.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

^ Thats the thing. I've mentioned Start-up frames in a couple of threads.
If your character doesn't have the start-up frames to counter-roles then part of it is a guessing game which was true in other Smash bros but given the improvement of it, this will be more emphasized and play a bigger impact.

 

[mangamusicfan]

I don't mind the rolling its part of the game.
But I agree it can be a lil Enyoing.

 

[theunabletable]

Yeah, but that means you need to get good.

Actually this in particular is an excerpt I wanted to say something on. "Get good" is a fine response to most complaining about an aspect of the game. It's part of the game, you consent to playing the game, and in order to win, dealing with whatever you're complaining about is implicitly a part of the skill involved in playing the game.

It's a very solid response to someone saying something like "Wow, you're so bad, you're just rolling all the time and I can't beat it." Well get good, you're worse because you can't beat it.

No one here is really doing that, though. We're largely, or at least I am, making observations that it looks like being much stronger at punishing rolling, and being much better at actually rolling, are two skills which are a much more integral part of being good in this game, and then coupling that with some sort of normative thing about that being undesirable. The latter half, that it sucks if rolling is too good, is entirely subjective. Rolling being really strong doesn't invalidate the game objectively, only for people who don't like it. I don't want anyone to get the impression that this thread is just... idk some melee player looking for stuff to bash about smash 4.

It's a discussion about a descriptive aspect of the game that affects subjective opinions for some people regarding it. Less than being "This game sucks, you can just spam rolls all day and win," it's more...:

It looks like rolling is much stronger now, to the point where being able to roll well and punish rolls well looks like it'll develop into being a centralizing skill within this game. In addition to that, I'm not sure I want to play a game where the skill in playing it is so intertwined with punishing rolls. Is the premise about rolls being strong true, then?

I wasn't going into this game hoping for Melee or Brawl, and I didn't have an agenda to dislike it or anything of the sort. Not that I've been explicitly accused of it,.but... it's an unspoken enthymeme that I've "sensed in the air" around the responses to my posts. I want to see what other people think about the descriptive strengths of rolling, and in the cases where people disagree, I'd like to test it and see which view is more in line with reality. I hope that if my view is framed in a more accurate light, the responses might be more relevant, rather than being sort of aimed at what's perceived as my emotional view regarding rolls. Does that make sense?

 

[Pogoshark]

I agree with OP, I was playing Bowser. Jr online yesterday against a Mario and I predicted the roll towards me and punished with a fsmash and he somehow had the frames after the roll to shield my fsmash and then kill me in my end lag

 

[Conda]

You can roll and attack nearly instantaneously (or keep the roll-train going), which is a problem. Same goes for airdodging (I don't see anybody talking about this, but airdodge-chaining is ridiculous in Smash 4! )

 

[otter]

Actually this in particular is an excerpt I wanted to say something on. "Get good" is a fine response to most complaining about an aspect of the game. It's part of the game, you consent to playing the game, and in order to win, dealing with whatever you're complaining about is implicitly a part of the skill involved in playing the game.

It's a very solid response to someone saying something like "Wow, you're so bad, you're just rolling all the time and I can't beat it." Well get good, you're worse because you can't beat it.

No one here is really doing that, though. We're largely, or at least I am, making observations that it looks like being much stronger at punishing rolling, and being much better at actually rolling, are two skills which are a much more integral part of being good in this game, and then coupling that with some sort of normative thing about that being undesirable. The latter half, that it sucks if rolling is too good, is entirely subjective. Rolling being really strong doesn't invalidate the game objectively, only for people who don't like it. I don't want anyone to get the impression that this thread is just... idk some melee player looking for stuff to bash about smash 4.

I'm not sure how this is so difficult to grasp. Some people are capable of disliking a feature while still overcoming it. I think scrubs are just projecting.

 

[Prawn]

You said "punishing after a hard read is impossible with some characters".

If you believe that then the only response is "get good". Show me some frame data that shows that's true and I'll back off.

Rolling, like I said, commits to moving a specific distance in a specific length of time, with no hitbox. Even if they are faster rolling is not that good of an option and can be countered pretty easily.

Rolls may or may not be more viable, punishing rolls and people who do it mindlessly and impulsively is still perfectly plausible.

 

[Prawn]

Do people realize you can punish rolls with rolls, or pivot grabs, or jabs, or tons of options that don't put you in jeopardy even if you miss? Long lasting hitboxes instead of smash attacks that rely heavier on timing?

Do people forget how good Metaknight/diddy/falco were at rolling?

Sometimes people will get away with a roll but you shouldn't be getting hit by roll -> smash attacks very often, or even jabs/tilts. You want to have a discussion about how rolls are better and I'm telling you that inherently the act of rolling is more often then not a bad option. It's telegraphed, you have to commit to it, there's no hitbox, and it's the exact same distance and timing every time you do it. It can be baited pretty easily on people who do it a lot too.

Keep in mind that the tiny amount of input lag online makes rolls a lot better too.

Edit: I think a lot of people on this board(not saying you) get caught up in trying to win every single for glory match or friendly when you should be playing to learn a lot more, which means addressing your weak areas head on and dipping hours of practice into making that weakness a strength. But instead I see a lot of threads on here about how "so and so is so good" or "my character can't deal with that" when the truth is more often then not that you need to just focus on that area of your game. Stop playing safe and just jump into them and start learning how to read/bait/punish rolls. Again not speaking to you specifically. Just explaining where my frustration to threads like this comes from. In brawl, especially online, rolling was also sometimes mind numbingly frustrating, in my 50-60 hours of play I have no reason to think these rolls are any giant step up in viability or difficultly to punish.

So there's my contribution to the discussion you're trying to have here.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

You said "punishing after a hard read is impossible with some characters".

If you believe that then the only response is "get good". Show me some frame data that shows that's true and I'll back off.

Rolling, like I said, commits to moving a specific distance in a specific length of time, with no hitbox. Even if they are faster rolling is not that good of an option and can be countered pretty easily.

Rolls may or may not be more viable, punishing rolls and people who do it mindlessly and impulsively is still perfectly plausible.

I would agree with you if this game were based on an actual health bar system. Reading a roll or otherwise punishing an ill-executed one would just lead to straight damage that will eventually just kill them without fail, even if the damage gotten is relatively light. In this game though, unless you're psychic and and attack in the direction of a roll before you actually see the roll happen, you're not going to get a substantial punish. Jabs and certain weak tilts will do the trick for getting a hit, but nothing strong that will actually kill them without putting yourself at risk for a bad judgement. "Good punishes" in this game are large damage setups and kill moves, and the quickness of rolls do not allow that except for style reads. Like really, is there a good reason why these were made quicker when defensive, campy gameplay was already an obnoxious aspect of Brawl? Rolls are quick enough in this game to give you the frame advantage even against a lot of tilt attacks.

 

[Prawn]

I would agree with you if this game were based on an actual health bar system. Reading a roll or otherwise punishing an ill-executed one would just lead to straight damage that will eventually just kill them without fail, even if the damage gotten is relatively light. In this game though, unless you're psychic and and attack in the direction of a roll before you actually see the roll happen, you're not going to get a substantial punish. Jabs and certain weak tilts will do the trick for getting a hit, but nothing strong that will actually kill them without putting yourself at risk for a bad judgement. "Good punishes" in this game are large damage setups and kill moves, and the quickness of rolls do not allow that except for style reads. Like really, is there a good reason why these were made quicker when defensive, campy gameplay was already an obnoxious aspect of Brawl? Rolls are quick enough in this game to give you the frame advantage even against a lot of tilt attacks.

Where is the frame data that supports anything you're saying? I only ask because I don't operate in that lane, I just play. So I'm curious when you throw around the phrase "frame advantage" if it's a fact or just a term you're using without researching it.

I'm not sure what to say to the rest of this nonsense, if my opponent wants to give me a free ftilt or jab or grab that will hit them off stage and give me an edge guard opportunity I'm more then happy to take that over what you deem as a "good punish". This excludes characters that will be able to combo/follow up/insert your AT here once the meta develops.
Not to mention that there are fast smash attacks/tilts/dash attacks that will kill.

So your assertion that one would have to be psychic to punish rolls effectively garners one simple response: "lol"


And no there isn't a good reason for any of the changes that smash brothers ever has. That's the beauty of playing a game that isn't exactly designed to play competitively like we do.

Edit: be honest with yourselves. Have you put in a reasonable amount of effort and are you confident enough in your abilities to say that the problem is rolling rather then you? Was anyone here completely OP at punishing rolls in any other smash game? I think these are important questions to ask yourselves before getting into a discussion about the viability of rolling, especially with no hard frame data to back up what you're saying.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Where is the frame data that supports anything you're saying? I only ask because I don't operate in that lane, I just play. So I'm curious when you throw around the phrase "frame advantage" if it's a fact or just a term you're using without researching it.

I'm not sure what to say to the rest of this nonsense, if my opponent wants to give me a free ftilt or jab or grab that will hit them off stage and give me an edge guard opportunity I'm more then happy to take that over what you deem as a "good punish". This excludes characters that will be able to combo/follow up/insert your AT here once the meta develops.
Not to mention that there are fast smash attacks/tilts/dash attacks that will kill.

So your assertion that one would have to be psychic to punish rolls effectively garners one simple response: "lol"


And no there isn't a good reason for any of the changes that smash brothers ever has. That's the beauty of playing a game that isn't exactly designed to play competitively like we do.

You don't need to be a frame count guru to be able to tell that the total commitment of a roll can easily match or even outspeed a lot of tilt attacks depending on characters involved. You just have to play. Frame advantage is a very simple concept of fighters that doesn't need exact counts to be felt when you have generous buffer windows as in Smash 4 and Brawl.

At high damage, a well read roll can lead to an outright kill opportunity in Brawl. In Smash 4, it really doesn't except when your character has a very specific tool in their kit for it. For the concerns of long term character viability, this is not a good thing. If even at high damage, a read roll doesn't lead to a real kill opportunity, there is an underlying issue. That is, one global mechanic itself that got better while the punishment options themselves did not, now becomes some sort of a viability gateway.

If you're really going to just aggressively brush off what I'm saying as "nonsense" just to make yourself look like some kind of authority (your matter-of-fact "I'm right, you're wrong" tone is the scum of the internet, stop), bear in mind that several players of this game, including good ones that hail from previous Smashes who know all about punishing inopportune use of dodge moves, have the same thing to say about rolls and dodges. Many say they're too good and are too free even in high level play, and that they were nowhere close to being bad before to warrant improvement in this area. They were perfectly good for their purpose on Brawl and reasonable to punish even considering input lag. Sped up, they're just irritating. The occurrence of this assessment is too frequent to be a coincidence among scrubs.

 

[Prawn]

You don't need to be a frame count guru to be able to tell that the total commitment of a roll can easily match or even outspeed a lot of tilt attacks depending on characters involved. You just have to play. Frame advantage is a very simple concept of fighters that doesn't need exact counts to be felt when you have generous buffer windows as in Smash 4 and Brawl.

At high damage, a well read roll can lead to an outright kill opportunity in Brawl. In Smash 4, it really doesn't except when your character has a very specific tool in their kit kit for it. For the concerns of long term character viability, this is not a good thing. If even at high damage, a read roll doesn't lead to a real kill opportunity, there is an underlying issue. That is, one global mechanic itself becoming a viability gateway.

If you're really going to just aggressively brush off what I'm saying as "nonsense" just to make yourself look like some kind of authority (your matter-of-fact "I'm right, you're wrong" tone is the scum of the internet, I have to add), bear in mind that several players of this game, including good ones that hail from previous Smashes who know all about punishing inopportune use dodge moves, have the same thing
Not to mention that there are fast smash attacks/tilts/dash attacks that will kill.

to say about rolls and dodges. Many say they're too good and are too free even in high level play, and that they were nowhere close to being bad before to warrant improvement in this area. They were perfectly good for their purpose on Brawl and reasonable to punish even without lag. Sped up, they're just irritating. The occurrence of this assessment is too frequent to be a coincidence among scrubs.

I'm not going to sugar coat my opinions to appeal to your sensitivities. I don't need to say "I think" and "in my opinion" every other sentence, were both adults. I believe at this point I'm right and you're wrong so I'm glad you got that out of my post. And I don't find anything I said to be aggressive...not sure where you're getting that from. Unless by aggressive you mean citing things you say and asking you to elaborate on them.

And uh, I mean, I'm not at all knowledgable about the subject but I'm fairly certain the term "frame advantage" is not just a "how it feels" but rather you know, a term coined to refer to a specific instance involving frame data. I mean, we're dealing with FRAMES, I'm not going to believe you or anyone including myself when they say it just "feels like it". Unless I'm really missing the boat on what frame advantage means ?????

Where are the good players saying rolls are too good and too free? Again, like frame advantage you're simply throwing things out there and not explaining them at all.

And, I have gotten many kills on well read rolls. Like, maybe hundreds at this point. And I've seen tons of other punishes on rolls that have led to kills while watching early tournament matches. So yes, on a well read roll, there really is a way to kill people. So saying "there really isn't" is wrong.

Edit: and you keep talking about how they were worse in brawl and if they "warranted improvement" which is a completely different discussion then what we're having and also seems like a conversation that would just be a waste of time as it has no bearing on what's going on. The rolls are how they are in this game. And they are punishable.

 

[Prawn]

Or maybe I'm wrong, there "really isn't" a way to punish rolls, you need to be psychic to punish them effectively and rolls give players frame advantages. Which are all ridiculous assertions you two have made.

 

[Clavaat]

I think I'm missing something here.

So far, whenever I'm matched up with someone who gets roll-happy, I chase them down with a dash attack, or aim for where they are going to end up post-roll. It doesn't feel any different to me from Melee, Brawl, etc. I'm honestly not seeing this strong defensive maneuver being discussed.

I would be curious to see frame data myself, which could show me otherwise, but for the time being, I'm not convinced.

Granted: I play Jigglypuff and Bowser Jr. mainly. Jiggs has the advantage of landing essentially wherever she wants with long-range aerial attacks, so I just judge the distance of a roll, and punish during/after. Bjr I almost always have a bot out, and chase down with his dash attack which lasts forever (it's like Luigi's dash attack but better).

I say this because my opinion may be skewed. I really haven't played too many other characters in actual matches, just some practice.

 

[iNoobtacular]

I don't know what's happening here with all the frame advantage talk.
But let me clear that up. If a character is rolling, he/she cannot press a button till x recovery frame has been hit. If a character is in neutral, any button at his or her disposal is ready to be pressed. Frame advantage is when one character legitimately can strike before another. In this situation, frame advantage goes to the character standing in neutral NOT the rolling character seeing as that character has committed to an attack that requires a full set of animation to come out. Now, I'm no expert at counting frames but I do believe you have about 5 or more frames before your next action comes out after a roll. If we were to talk about that alone. Then the character standing in a neutral position is at +5 frame advantage (baring the entire roll animation). I think rolls are strong in Smash 4 (this is a personal opinion) . As such I think it's important to bait them or punish whatever action the person has in store after the roll. This all comes with paying attention to a player's habits and learning how to react to them.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

And uh, I mean, I'm not at all knowledgable about the subject but I'm fairly certain the term "frame advantage" is not just a "how it feels" but rather you know, a term coined to refer to a specific instance involving frame data. I mean, we're dealing with FRAMES, I'm not going to believe you or anyone including myself when they say it just "feels like it". Unless I'm really missing the boat on what frame advantage means ?????

Frame advantage is anything that brings you to a neutral state where can attack before your opponent can. Rolls are faster than a lot of tilts depending on character. It does not need to be a specific number with input buffer being being an enabler, and with the fuzziness of frame advantage/disadvantage in Smash in general. If after they rolled to avoid your attack, they can attack you or defend themselves before you can properly punish it, they had the frame advantage. This is very easily noticed with slower characters who can't keep up with this. This very much limits how they can attack, and loops back to a criticism about how the game is still very defensive.

Like really, what I'm saying is that the ubiquity of rolls in this game by itself becomes sort of character enabler. Punishing someone who runs and rolls as Peach/Zelda is a nightmare. With Sheik or ZSS, it's a different story.

 

[Prawn]

I think the idea of a "hard read" means you don't do an initial attack for them to roll away from, or if you do it's a jab or quick tilt. So that scenario doesn't really apply.

In a perfect world every character could punish everything but if we're being real somewhere between 5-15 characters are going to be viable on a high level. And i think it's safe to say 5-15 characters in this game punish rolls just fine. There are so many things that are "character enablers" and given the history of smash hoping that anymore then 1/4th of the cast are gonna be any good is wishful thinking.

 

[Prawn]

Unabletables posts about having to get hard reads as opposed to reaction or "soft reads" is a little bit more in the realm of reality but I still think it's a reach. I'm also not even sure if the good rolls in brawl were punishable "on reaction" in the true sense of the term.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

And I can guarantee the viable range would be more if rolls were not as suddenly good as they are in this game. Which is why at the core, speeding them up without actually offering better punishment options for characters that struggle with it is problematic.

I would have hoped if they really wanted to make rolls this way with quick animations, they would be lower on invincibility or even have a cooldown to even out the effect. This is an example of how a global buff without really changing anything else directly interacting with it has negative impact.

 

[Prawn]

How can you guarantee something like that when the games been out for only the ds for a week or two? There are so many things that will come about that will mess with character viability.

I totally and honestly feel that it is no significant amount harder to deal with the better rolls in this game then it was to deal with ROB/MK/Falco in brawl, and I think having played both that the offline/online disparity is quite large and makes a world of difference in punishing rolls and spot dodges

 

[Prawn]

online is good but not perfect and just flat out bad if you wanna test something like this. If the connection isn't top notch then rolling becomes problematic to deal with. but if its offline then punishing rolls are really easy. Rolling is the best its ever been but if people just roll like its the new WD the people abusing it will just get destroyed

This and a few other posts sum up nicely the reality of rolling in this game probably, somewhere in the middle of what were both arguing.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

How can you guarantee something like that when the games been out for only the ds for a week or two? There are so many things that will come about that will mess with character viability.

I totally and honestly feel that it is no significant amount harder to deal with the better rolls in this game then it was to deal with ROB/MK/Falco in brawl, and I think having played both that the offline/online disparity is quite large and makes a world of difference in punishing rolls and spot dodges

It's been out for a month for a significant amount of people who play the game hard. And I'm not talking about online play when I'm saying these things. It's not like there's going to be some massive technical breakthrough that creates reliable anti-roll tech for character who already struggled with this to begin with and are circled upon by faster ones. It doesn't really take a genius to see why characters like Sheik, Rosalina and ZSS are way up there. Being able to better control/punish the opponent's defensive options including rolls is one of those things.

 

[AshBoomstick]

I still try to use rolling sparingly to just be less predictable to the other player. I only catch myself spamming rolls is when i start making stupid decisions and start to noob panic.

 

[TheTuninator]

Zero is streaming at this very second. Go watch how many times a stock he rolls, as well as his other high-level opponents.

It's an extremely small number.

Hypothetically, if rolling makes the game extremely unfun at the average level of play, due to requiring a very high level of skill to punish, but is not a problem for the pros, it's still worth considering a redress. Most high-profile competitive esports such as DotA and SCII balance with both casual and competitive play in mind, as it's necessary to have a thriving base of casual players if you want a healthy competitive scene.

We'll have to give strategies some time to evolve, but I don't think anybody can deny that rolling is definitely way safer in SSB4.

 

[Prawn]

I don't understand people talking about this like it's going you change, what do you mean a redress? What gives you any hope nintendo would ever change this?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Rolls in Smash 4 feel like a sidestep dodge with movement, is all I can really say on the subject.