Rolls seem problematic in this game

[popsofctown]

You can only roll away so many times before you run out of stage. Then you have to do a punishable roll forward, or start fighting.
That means the rolling buff emphasizes stage control, which would be a good thing.

 

[Alphatron]

I haven't had any problem tech chasing with flame choke at all. I can only speak from experience but I didn't know Ganondorf could chase on reaction with it. I've always just predicted the get up attack or what direction they were going to roll in and responded according to it. The only characters who I could respond to on reaction were characters with terrible rolls like Game and Watch.

As far as responding in reaction to rolls goes, I won't say I haven't noticed anything. It definitely feels like rolls are faster and go further. I too have been whiffing down smashes on rolling foes. It's especially bad when you toss out a properly spaced forward tilt with DK and the opponent ends up rolling behind you and punishing you for it. However, it seems like something you can adapt to rather easily. Increased running speed all around makes it easier to punish rolls for a lot of characters. Ever since I started charging my down smashes I've started hitting players who would roll behind me. Short hopped aerials seem like the ideal punish now (mainly with nuetral airs but I've been lightning kicking people too) for rollers. And on characters with good grab range, I've gotten a lot of mileage out if pivot grabbing or dash cancelled grabbing.

I still have to play more. And I'm definitely not as experienced as everyone else here. But the rolls now seem about as manageable as before. It's just that the way you respond to them is different.

 

[otter]

What aspects of rolls specifically do you think are stronger than they were in Brawl?

Because the way I see it, rolling backwards and forwards in Smash is roughly comparable to jumping backwards and forwards in Street Fighter, in terms of both being high risk but potentially very rewarding situations.

This is a pretty bad comparison. Jumping in Street Fighter is associated with scrubby play (like rolls) and you can lose 50% of your life from jumping into a shoryuken in SF4.

It's making Sm4sh kid of boring so far. My opponent mashes rolls all day, after several correct reads, I final hit them with something. They fly off screen, survive, I patiently wait 5 seconds for their return, and they start rolling again.

It's not too bad under 50% where outplaying them gets me a few hits but then it slows down. In glad in not the only one getting screwed out of hard read downsmashes.

 

[Signia]

What characters neither have a fast dash, good dash attack, a spammable projectile, fast horizontal attack, or good air speed?

Problem characters seems to be G&W, Shulk, Luigi, Kirby, Ike, Lucario, Falco, Zelda, Ganondorf, Megaman (added characters people are having trouble punishing rolls with).

G&W is right in the middle on the dash speed rankings so he might have issues punishing the really fast rolls. Otherwise he's fine, and can probably even combo off of a late dash attack.

Shulk is in the same boat, but he has Speed Monado fast rollers.

Luigi at least has a projectile that he can zone with to discourage rolling, instead being able to punish it outright. Or go for a misfire, lol.

Kirby has a multi-hitting dash-attack which makes things easier if you want to predict a roll instead of punishing it on reaction.

Ike... Side-B? His dash and dash attack is too slow to punish with on reaction. I'm kinda stumped on this one. Maybe you could corner them by walking toward them and reacting to things, then and force a roll-toward by the edge, and get a big punish off a preemptive Fsmash, but his walk is very slow he requires a huge commitment to get anything but a jab combo.

Lucario? Idk, he's right below Ike on the dash speed rankings. But, he has a projectile. Use it.

Falco can side-B or laser, I guess? Not the greatest options, but maybe you have use them.

Zelda has good projectile and a multi-hitting dash attack. Stop complaining.

Ganondorf has side-B and down-B as risky hard reads. That's how the character is with everything.

Megaman is a projectile character... sorry, but you can't punish things on reaction. Zone. Throw projectiles to control space and discourage them from rolling away in the first place. Besides, he also has a multi-hitting dash attack and skid cancel dtilt.



Though a problem with a system like this is that you can't just pile on damage to eventually get a kill. You eventually have to connect with something that will finish them. In this game, it seems there is little to stop people from just rolling around everywhere, and that players can easily play in such a way to avoid KO moves while still being able to rack up damage themselves. The best you can do is corner them and patiently wait for them to do something risky, or force mixups during edgeguards after weak hits. But those plans can easily fall apart or even backfire in this chaotic game.

 

[Teshie U]

If this game had health bars, punishing rolls with dash attack, ftilt, metal blade or weak dtilt would be fine. But, in Smash it IS kind of an issue when your punishes can't kill. Its not really even an issue with reaching people, its just a matter of making those reads even matter, and often rolls are so fast that you can't conceivably kill even with the hardest of reads.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

If this game had health bars, punishing rolls with dash attack, ftilt, metal blade or weak dtilt would be fine. But, in Smash it IS kind of an issue when your punishes can't kill. Its not really even an issue with reaching people, its just a matter of making those reads even matter, and often rolls are so fast that you can't conceivably kill even with the hardest of reads.

DTilts, Dash Attacks, and FTilts do work though, because they put the opponent either slightly offstage or in the air, and then you can either chase or punish their landing.

 

[Teshie U]

Then they go to the ledge, crawl on stage for free and roll around some more. Nothing is 100% certain, but there is a certain imbalance of risk/reward here.

 

[Clocked]

I've been playing some Robin and some Ganon lately, and what I can say is as Robin Arcfire can really hamper the ability to roll, and as Ganon, pivot F-Tilts and D-Smashes can really **** up someone who's not careful, and tries an obvious roll.

 

[LoreLes]

Rolling definitely is pretty powerful this time around. I feel little mac uses this the best and it's very annoying.

 

[Venks]

Rolls that cross her up, yeah, you can rest them on expectation, but no, you can't rest back rolls away from you. Some of them maybe, but Little Mac for instance, you do not have the speed to catch up to him if he's rolling away.

Jigglypuff really doesn't have it that bad.
http://gfycat.com/PessimisticUltimateGreyhounddog

 

[ZombieBran]

I've changed my mind on rolls for now. After getting used to his invincibility frames, Little Macs who always roll are easy KO fodder for Zelda. Especially if they've rolled near the edge. It helps that Zelda has fast start up KO moves. Though whiffing one is painful.

I have literally never fought a decent Little Mac (even though he is by far the character I've faced the most, funny how that works) so I have no idea how good he'd be when using his rolls intelligently. My guess is scary good.

 

[Roxas215]

I 100% agree. My winrate is like 92% out of something around 300 matches. And i just had to put the game down last night and went back to Melee and PM. Litteraly chasing after a DHD and Little Mac was probably the worst time i ever had in the smash series.

Rolls in this game are just too safe with litteraly no risk to them. Rolls on top of the huge ass blast zones are just killing this game for me. It shouldn't take over 15 mins to complete 2 games. Thats nonsense.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Throw air dodges into the mix, too. Only the very hardest of reads can conceivably compete with how quickly you can act of of AD in this game (or do another AD...). There's practically no risk to air dodging unless you're doing it close to the ground, and it's so quick that it's easy to get a reversal out of it in air-to-air combat. This is not really a good thing when it piles onto the rather boring, anti-combo and anti-punish game that the Brawl air dodges rolls already made, except now those things are even faster.

 

[Trickerhere]

Hey guys so I been playing some For Glory matches and for some matches I have a player who spams roll all the way to the other side/dodging and continuously rolling. How should I punish them? The character that I faced was Sonic and it was such a pain the whole match. I use Lucina btw.

 

[kennypu]

multiple ways:
o if you know he's going to roll, dash attack in the same direction
o dash with him in the same direction, pivot grab/boost pivot grab
o if you know he's going to roll behind you or in between you, forward smash behind you so he rolls into it, or down smash.

your main specific, if you missed a read on a roll and you're about to get punished, up-b.

It's all about reading and punishing.

 

[Gea]

Dash back side b or grab in your main's case. It's pretty easy to read rolls. If they are just rolling everywhere, I just wait for them to approach me. Grabs are your friend on for glory. People are terrible.

 

[ConeZ]

Shielding + Grabbing = Winning against most people honestly

 

[Trickerhere]

Shielding + Grabbing = Winning against most people honestly

Lol yeah that worked in like every match I had since I started For Glory yesterday.

 

[TheTuninator]

Rolling definitely feels too safe in this game. It's very quick to spam, too. If your character doesn't have a great chase option or fast ground speed, somebody can just spam rolls away from you and you probably won't be able to do anything about it. There seems to be almost no ending lag on the move, which is frankly kinda ridiculous, and makes me wonder if reading's still going to cut it.

 

[<π]

I love it when people roll. I ftilt them and then I uair them and then they are dead.

 

[kj22]

Why not pivot grab? Unless people are actually spot dodging after the roll, or just plain out of range, in which case bad spacing on your part

 

[Kef]

To me it's more a matter of lack of mobility options to actually chase people down when they are rolling away. Yes, just by eyeballing it, rolls do seem to have both faster startup and recovery, but I still find a problem elsewhere. If you know someone is gonna roll, you are kind of set into relatively specific options to chase them down than in other games. For example:

Let's say you are fighting a Little Mac (popular choice here), and you start noting he likes to roll a lot when you get close. So once again, you put him in a situation in which you know he is gonna roll (Knockdown, coming down from a jump, whiffed poke like FTilt or DTilt etc.). His options pretty much breakdown like this:
- Roll Away
- Roll Towards
- Step Dodge/Sidestep
- Shield
- Roll>Roll (any direction)

If I am feeling a bit ballsy, usually a crossup pivot throw could have enough delay to cover the Sidestep and cover someone in their shields. As for rolls, if you don't have amazing movement options, you are not getting ****. If you think they are gonna roll away, you might try dashing forward, you enter your run state. If you know you are not gonna get the punish because how fast the rolls are in this game (again, common), you are going to probably have to guess again. You cannot cancel your run with a crouch or a wavedash, so you are either stuck in an average turnaround animation or go for the decent Skid Cancel (if your character has a good one) to try to have them close again.

I feel that this is an EVEN BIGGER problem in the neutral, where characters like Fox, which don't get any momentum from their forward jump, and have average turnaround/skid animations. There is absolutely no reason for a character with way better pokes (aerial or grounded) like Bowser or a character with threatening projectiles like DHD to not reset the spacing and just roll away like a maniac. There's a range that perhaps Fox can play his game with grabs and crossup Nair/empty-jumps, but this is the same range where all of the options listed above just become more ambiguous and hard to punish.

Even with the frame data being relatively close to what we are used to (which I have my doubts), movement options and the risk of someone punishing heavily OoS in general just make rolls better.

 

[Leebee]

I'm very curious about the actual frame data for rolls/dodges in this game compared to others, because they do really feel so much faster/safer.

also, I wonder how much the Dodgy Dodger custom equipment trait changes the frame data as well.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I've managed to be defeated by camping people abusing rolls this way. Usually they'd use some safe move near the ledge so I can't approach. Had to "slow down" my gameplay style and use more defensive maneuvers and reads in order to even attack them, but my gosh, I almost think Sakurai has created even more defensively rewarding game than Brawl if my experiences are any indication.

I gotta git gud.

 

[Coonce]

Whenever some spams rolls, I troll back with rolls. I don't even try to hit them. It's funny how many people will rage quit if you do that.

I'm sure dealing with them in a lag free environment will be a bit easier. But for now, if someone is going to waste my time, then I'm going to waste theirs.

 

[<π]

Then they go to the ledge, crawl on stage for free and roll around some more. Nothing is 100% certain, but there is a certain imbalance of risk/reward here.

SOmetimes I wonder if you guys have played more than a few matches. What character can walk on stage for free? I kill everyone who tries to get on stage with that option (or jump or attack, or stay on the ledge) with vanish every single time (It covers all of those options.)

I'm going to sound rude here... but I think this is a situation where I may need to. I tell this stuff to my 10 year old when he "can't" solve a math problem on her homework... stop whining and complaining about issues and problems and use that same energy to create solutions to those problems.

For example this thread's title could have just as easily been "How I punish rolls". with lists of examples he has used in his 90% win ratio games and an invitation for others to suggest their ideas, instead its a guy who says he is great at the game wins most of his matches, but can't overcome this (IMO very simple) obstacle.

 

[Rajing Clue]

SOmetimes I wonder if you guys have played more than a few matches. What character can walk on stage for free? I kill everyone who tries to get on stage with that option (or jump or attack, or stay on the ledge) with vanish every single time (It covers all of those options.)

I'm going to sound rude here... but I think this is a situation where I may need to. I tell this stuff to my 10 year old when he "can't" solve a math problem on her homework... stop whining and complaining about issues and problems and use that same energy to create solutions to those problems.

For example this thread's title could have just as easily been "How I punish rolls". with lists of examples he has used in his 90% win ratio games and an invitation for others to suggest their ideas, instead its a guy who says he is great at the game wins most of his matches, but can't overcome this (IMO very simple) obstacle.

I understand what you're saying. But I have to agree with OP. Because of the increase in landing lag for aerials and recovery frames across the board associated with most attacks, PUNISHING a roll with an attack is more of a commitment then ever, so it almost seems like I am often fishing for a pivot grab or pivot f tilt, just to prove I can punish the roll. In the meantime it is a hell of a lot easier to punish a "Roll Punish" then it is to punish a roll.

The point is, slowing down "attacks" in general, yet speeding up rolling makes it feel like the safest option in many cases aside from maybe throwing out a jab or a grab. Like many others have stated, its difficult to even punish a roll on reaction even if you KNOW its coming- they feel THAT strong...

 

[<π]

@ Rajing Clue
what are you punishing rolls with?

with zelda I punish with Love, jab, dash attack and dtilt
with sheiK I punish with ftilt, jab, needles, dtilt, sour nair, fair, and with vanish hard reads (Its my brawl main though so it translates easy she has very little commitment in most of her attacks)
with Jr I use dtilt, jab, ftilt, nair, fair, side B/ side B spin out

None of those options are huge commitments. The opponent can't go "HA! he spaced his attack perfectly on my shield because he was a few frames late! I get this huge punish" Well... maybe for love but don't miss with love.
I punish rolls consistently...with a 3ds... online... and it becomes even easier to punish when that's all your opponents do when you apply pressure. If I can do it than there is no reason anyone else can't I'm not good at this game yet. That's why I can so confidently say you people need to try harder there is always a solution to a problem.

 

[Rajing Clue]

I'm not saying its impossible to punish, I use similar things to punish as well, i'm just saying that against another skilled player who uses them effectively, there are not nearly as many opportunities to get KO's by punishing rolls in relation to previous iterations. I simply find the roll to be very low risk high reward in this game, and a bit inconsistent with the changes they've made to the general pace

 

[Shadowfury333]

Has anyone checked how grabs and rolls interact? In my last few online matches, I (playing ZSS) quickly learned to stop rolling because my opponent (Lucina in one case) seemed to be able to grab me out of it (during the I frames) every time. Possibly just a lag issue, but I'm going to try to investigate further.

If true, it kinda makes sense. Throws/grabs typically punish blocks, which rolls could be considered an extension of.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Well, if we're talking about terrible roll-spammers in For Glory, I simply just play Fox, punish with a foxtrot Up-smash.

But when I actually play against someone who uses rolls well? Well, I have to be much more campy. I have to run around, bait with lasers, frustrate my opponent enough to force them to make a mistake (throw out some dumb move), then approach with a safe move depending on the character.

What seems to work out the most with Fox is short-hop Nair -> double jab -> (dash back > pivot > Up-smash) [the last three have to be done maaaaad fast for the U-smash to connect, not to mention you have to really read the direction of that roll]

I have to agree with the OP: rolling, while still punishable, is ridiculously stupidly hard to punish. I started playing Fox for that reason, because he is essentially the anti-bullcrap character of this game.

 

[Rajing Clue]

Well, if we're talking about terrible roll-spammers in For Glory, I simply just play Fox, punish with a foxtrot Up-smash.

But when I actually play against someone who uses rolls well? Well, I have to be much more campy. I have to run around, bait with lasers, frustrate my opponent enough to force them to make a mistake (throw out some dumb move), then approach with a safe move depending on the character.

What seems to work out the most with Fox is short-hop Nair -> double jab -> (dash back > pivot > Up-smash) [the last three have to be done maaaaad fast for the U-smash to connect, not to mention you have to really read the direction of that roll]

I have to agree with the OP: rolling, while still punishable, is ridiculously stupidly hard to punish. I started playing Fox for that reason, because he is essentially the anti-bullcrap character of this game.

Fully agree- Still punishable, but excessively too difficult to punish given the low risk high reward nature of the roll

 

[_Magus_]

Only way i've been able to punish is with a pivot f tilt. Fast enough to get out before they begin their next action, but still, reading rolls in this game is mad hard

 

[AvariceX]

Well, if we're talking about terrible roll-spammers in For Glory, I simply just play Fox, punish with a foxtrot Up-smash.

But when I actually play against someone who uses rolls well? Well, I have to be much more campy. I have to run around, bait with lasers, frustrate my opponent enough to force them to make a mistake (throw out some dumb move), then approach with a safe move depending on the character.

What seems to work out the most with Fox is short-hop Nair -> double jab -> (dash back > pivot > Up-smash) [the last three have to be done maaaaad fast for the U-smash to connect, not to mention you have to really read the direction of that roll]

I have to agree with the OP: rolling, while still punishable, is ridiculously stupidly hard to punish. I started playing Fox for that reason, because he is essentially the anti-bullcrap character of this game.

David go back to Peach, you don't play spacies XD. Or be like me and teach everyone spamming rolls to praise SALUTE THE SUN. You think rolling will save you? I got 360 degree hitboxes on everything let's go.

 

[DavemanCozy]

David go back to Peach, you don't play spacies XD. Or be like me and teach everyone spamming rolls to praise SALUTE THE SUN. You think rolling will save you? I got 360 degree hitboxes on everything let's go.

But Peach has no ass anymore. She can't create dat booty wall, she's too different for me to enjoy playing as her. xD

Lol, It took me 4 smash games to start liking Fox, I finally enjoy playing as him

 

[Blue Warrior]

I have less of a problem against people who roll and more of a problem against people who are good at the game.

Rolling is a low-effort strategy I use when I'm in For Glory and I need to close the door or something during a match, but as good as it is, it's still easy to bait against people who abuse it. As Megaman I can pump out projectiles all day long; if they want to roll backward or forward into my sawblade, lemons, or charge shot, that's on them. I personally prefer to be able to move and attack at the same time.

 

[Teshie U]

SOmetimes I wonder if you guys have played more than a few matches. What character can walk on stage for free? I kill everyone who tries to get on stage with that option (or jump or attack, or stay on the ledge) with vanish every single time (It covers all of those options.)

I'm going to sound rude here... but I think this is a situation where I may need to. I tell this stuff to my 10 year old when he "can't" solve a math problem on her homework... stop whining and complaining about issues and problems and use that same energy to create solutions to those problems.

For example this thread's title could have just as easily been "How I punish rolls". with lists of examples he has used in his 90% win ratio games and an invitation for others to suggest their ideas, instead its a guy who says he is great at the game wins most of his matches, but can't overcome this (IMO very simple) obstacle.

Keep in mind, I was pointing out that some characters simply have no good way to punish rolls because of how fast they escape CQC.

@ Rajing Clue
what are you punishing rolls with?

with zelda I punish with Love, jab, dash attack and dtilt
with sheiK I punish with ftilt, jab, needles, dtilt, sour nair, fair, and with vanish hard reads (Its my brawl main though so it translates easy she has very little commitment in most of her attacks)
with Jr I use dtilt, jab, ftilt, nair, fair, side B/ side B spin out

None of those options are huge commitments. The opponent can't go "HA! he spaced his attack perfectly on my shield because he was a few frames late! I get this huge punish" Well... maybe for love but don't miss with love.
I punish rolls consistently...with a 3ds... online... and it becomes even easier to punish when that's all your opponents do when you apply pressure. If I can do it than there is no reason anyone else can't I'm not good at this game yet. That's why I can so confidently say you people need to try harder there is always a solution to a problem.

Many characters were given a high mobility kill option (like falcon, pit etc.) for what I believe is that purpose as they arent exactly good approach options. However not everyone has these options.

When your opponent tries to roll in, you can punish well off of a read, but I don't see how you are punishing roll aways with jab, dtilt or any aerial (as a roll would start and end before you would FF something on their new location).

I'm sure you've made the assumption that anyone concerned about rolls must be playing only terrible players, but when a good player who understands the safety in it abuses it, it might be a problem. Most of the problems I see in roll-aways are because I roll away to avoid kill situations.

As for ledge getups, they no longer change after 100%. I'll wait for the frame data to come out, but being on the ledge and simply standing up appears to have less than 5 frames of vulnerability (some instances suggest it has none). With consecutive reads, nothing is safe forever, but that doesnt mean it isn't imbalanced when I have to be 3 steps ahead to land one move.

 

[PyroTakun]

As an Ike main, I find rolls to be incredibly safe this game. D-Smash and U-Smash might work if I read a roll perfectly, but the most consistency I've had is with QD, which is also what I've been using to chase opponents who land far away from me. But if I mess up the QD, I get punished pretty hardcore.

So if you remember anything about my post, remember this:

The Ike struggle is real.

 

[Abhi-wan]

I played this person using Villager last night and I swear ALL he did was roll around. It gets so damn frustrating sometimes and it wastes so many minutes on the clock. Don't really know how well Villager's roll is, but he would literally hit me and just roll around for a good 10-15 seconds.

 

[Abhi-wan]

Update on this: just played against a little Mac as MegaMan. His strategy was dash punch, and back roll forward smash. I could not punish a whiffed or a blocked back roll forward smash. There was nothing I could do. If I went for forward smash he was out of range. Slide, he was out of range. Ftilt he had armor and dash punched after the roll. Fair, armor on the f smash. Dash and grab was out of range. Run and grab got caught by the f smash. Metal blades got dash and punched. Side b got shielded. Top spin got beat by armor.

The two matches that were fought was nothing but that. Combine little Macs roll with armor and this is what happens.

That armor on his smash attacks makes me so mad sometimes lol.