Robocop Poll: Wobbling

[CAOTIC]

Attila & Meteor: The Tier list is developed based not on how good the characters are, but how the current metagames are with them -- this makes the placing of characters in the tier list extremely dependent on the ability of the players that use him, as well as the character's popularity. The only noticeable pro IC-player is Chu Dat/Wobbles. My point is that there are still valid arguments for supporting the banning of a tactic from a character that is not top tier, or popular. The PAL tier list is as subjective as it is -- some EU countries rank them as 2nd best.

Think outside the box please.

 

[Dekar289]

if we unban wobbling, let's also unban peach's wall bomb stall and jigglypuff's repeated rising pound stall
to avoid wobbling, don't get grabbed
to avoid the stalling, just don't let the opponent get the percent lead and run away and get into a good stalling position

or we could just... not unban wobbling B)

 

[TakFR]

Wobbling can also be used as a stalling tactic as well

 

[bylim5]

lol I somehow misread the poll question. Change my vote to 'no'

 

[Dekar289]

actually tak 300% rule takes care of that well enough

 

[megapup]

eh i thought it didnt seem that bad but after reading the thread it appears it should be banned.
does it make ICs the best?
i thought it was allowed in other tournaments?

 

[Surgi]

lolll, tak yeah you're right. i should have said he doesnt do gay things to me :/ just everyone else.

I'm giving up, seems like arguments going:
Surgi- point 1
Dekar - counter 1
ZXV- contribution
Surgi - point 2
Dekar - counter 1
ZXV - more contribution
Surgi - point 3
Dekar - counter 1
Tak - troll
Dekar - counter 1.... again

 

[Attila_]

i thought ic dair cg always worked?

like i said, im not a melee player. don't expect me think like one. i play a game where one mistake will often mean death, where a person can literally shut down characters with a single button press, and where there is a single character sitting in top tier. that's the kind of thinking i've got in smash, and i've stretched it out to melee.

but whatever, i already said i dont play the game, so you guys know whats best. just putting it out there.

 

[TakFR]

lolll, tak yeah you're right. i should have said he doesnt do gay things to me :/ just everyone else.

I'm giving up, seems like arguments going:
Surgi- point 1
Dekar - counter 1
ZXV- contribution
Surgi - point 2
Dekar - counter 1
ZXV - more contribution
Surgi - point 3
Dekar - counter 1
Tak - troll
Dekar - counter 1.... again

actually it's more like
Surgi - Bad point
Dekar - lolwat
ZXV - Contribution
Dekar - Counter

and it just repeats itself from there

 

[Zxv]

Nah, d-throw CG isn't 100%. Can SDI it, harder to time, varies from character to character (some are impossible to infinite with it, I think... Peach/Samus...?).

Wobbling works the exact same on every character.

 

[Sieg]

Can't CG Samoose and Peach.

Edit: Oh, I dunno about dair CG. I believe it doesn't work on Samoose, dunno about Peach though, I'd assume not.

 

[Surgi]

tak untill you actually make a valid point or you know, provide proof that at least mine aren't valid then please stop talking you look like a fool just trolling me over and over for no reason

 

[EverAlert]

I find it funny that some people that voted yes have literally nothing to do with the melee scene whatsoever (there is even one American lol), could that be taken into consideration Cao?

I have a better question for everyone actually, who here has actually had to put up with wobbling in a tournament match?

Here's a better question: when's the last time you had a whinge about wobbling? I'll give you a cookie if the answer is more than 12 hours. Here's an even better/actually intelligent question: does wobbling overcentralise the metagame?

By the way, I'm sure a lot of the people you think "don't have anything to do with melee" do actually play and practise melee, lol.

In my opinion, one of the cool things about Melee that's an improvement over most other fighting games with substantial combos is that you're always playing. When you're getting comboed, your DI and tech reaction is still important - even if your opponent can theoretically guarantee the combo if they don't **** up, you can make it harder for them to pull it off with good DI.

What I think particularly sucks about wobbling and sets it apart from standard chain grabs is not only is it a guaranteed combo to KO, but it completely removes the victim's participation from the game until the KO. I'm in favour of it remaining banned.

This is the most intelligent post in the thread, by far: it definitely gave me something more to think about.

I still think wobbling should be unbanned, though. Like I hinted above, I don't think it comes even close to overcentralising the metagame, especially not the australian metagame. I have a firm belief that as long as something isn't overcentralising, then "removing gameplay" is acceptable. I know you've read Sirlin's work: this is similar to the Super Turbo Old Sagat example in that he is soft-banned in Japan for "removing too much gameplay," yet not in America despite this.

I don't believe wobbling causes nearly that much removal of gameplay (you still need to be careful of grabs against ICs, and in general still need to develop good DI, regardless), and certainly doesn't make ICs a problem-character in our local metagame. All I really see are some melbourne people whinging that they got wobbled by timic - why should anything be banned on such a flimsy basis?

 

[TakFR]

Trust me Surgi, only one person is looking like a fool in this thread and it's not me -_-'

Actually EA i'm 100% sure that some people that don't play melee voted in that thread, hell Attila plays more then them and he knows that his opinion is not a viable one

 

[Dekar289]

All I really see are some melbourne people whinging that they got wobbled by timic - why should anything be banned on such a flimsy basis?

sooo did you read the thread?

tak and surgi: both idiots

 

[EverAlert]

Umm, yes, I did. Tbh I was hoping tak'd give me a bit better ammunition later in the thread but w/e.

 

[Zxv]

So... Does the outcome of this poll influence RC...?

 

[luke_atyeo]

surgi you are pretty dumb, lets face it.

 

[SummonerAU]

Are you sure Surgi? From my perspective it seems like the argument is going:
Surgi- noise
ZXV- contribution
Surgi - noise
ZXV - more contribution
...
Surgi - ONLY MYSELF AND ZXV HAVE SAID ANYTHING SMART

From memory, this is what you're argued.
1) America has played with it sometimes
2) Marth fsmash/othermoves can lead to KOs
3) It's hard to do.

1) America has also banned it some of the time. You could add something like "America has it allowed because..." to actually say something about the argument.
2) You have OPTIONS after getting hit by that. You can DI, recover etc unlike wobbling which leads to death UNLESS they mess up.
3) If anything is broken/OP. People will learn it, master it and abuse it. This argument is silly since it doesn't reduce how broken/OP the particular 'thing' is.

Pretty sure I haven't said anything new about this either, it's all been posted somewhere here. Your last post is just annoying. You're being called dumb because you're making silly arguments and missing the point of counterarguments and that's not even mentioning things that you've just been likening to wobbling and the things you've been wrong about. While that might not be what you're intending, that's what it looks like from here.

obv scum imo. Vote: Surgi come join the Surgi bandwagon, Dekar what do you think of Tak Surgi scum/dumb team?

 

[Dekar289]

lynch both, doc on atticus

 

[luke_atyeo]

the funniest part is when the truly stupid people believe that they are really smart.

 

[Timic83]

after insight from atticus and dekar i wanna change my vote XD

wobbling should be banned its too easy to do in comparison to other cgs

brawl players gtfo this thread stop posting yes

 

[tibs7]

Timic this decision influences robocop ruleset. So everyone competing in robocop should vote, which includes brawl players......noob

 

[Splice]

Timic if you think it should be banned because it's easy to do... then I think that is bad.

But if you guys feel
*It hinders actually playing the game
*Makes it near impossible for a lot of other characters that would be considered HIGHLY VIABLE to beat
*Wobblin' Would overcentralize the metagame

Then I think those are fair points.

My only concern is the avoidability of the wobble; I don't think it would overcentralize the metagame, but if those highly viable characters were to play in a correct style, would they be able to effectively avoid the IC's and not get grabbed?

I do not know how hard it is in Melee, but in Brawl it's easy, and that's why I am fine with the CG in Brawl; It's easy to avoid if you adopt a slightly different style of play, which I think is healthy because it makes you learn some new tricks, and you can deal with the MU (that applies to most high tier characters in Brawl only - i.e Not ganondorf)

If in Melee, the CG can be avoided quite efficiently - I know with Jiggs it can be done - In a way that, yes, makes you learn some new tricks, but once they are learnt weakens the IC's threat, then I think it should be unbanned, personally.

It only hinders gameplay once your in it, and I'm not sure if it limits characters viability (because they cant play aggressive as they like, which may be the style necessary for a good falcon etc.)

What I am saying is

I vote YES if it can be avoided if you learn how to because this promotes the idea of players learning new ways to play/study more etc.

I vote NO if it's IMPOSSIBLE for high tier characters to play in a way that would make it very hard for them to get grabbed by IC's whilst still keeping their validity as a character, being able to do whatever it is that makes them good and whatnot.

Mmmm.

 

[Timic83]

Timic this decision influences robocop ruleset. So everyone competing in robocop should vote, which includes brawl players......noob

but they wont be playing melee (most of them)
and they will think cg in melee = cg in brawl

 

[CAOTIC]

Splice, a Wobble is not the same as a chaingrab -- please don't compare the two. A Wobble is an attack that can last as long as the player wants. There's no release phase in-between grabs or anything of that sort -- to best describe Wobbling would be grab-jabbing forever with no opportunity to escape. Not everyone is arguing about the avoidability issue of Wobbling. Just fyi.

Also Tibi, only Aussie voters that play in Melee tournaments will be counted by me. And I'll do some manual counting to make sure people have their votes in the right place.

 

[tibs7]

Tbh I think it's the other way round....half the melee***s won't be playing brawl whilst brawlers will be playing melée.

but umm wobbling and brawl cg are essentially the same thing, level of difficulty is the only difference =\.

I hate wobbling and brawl cg, ban them both!

 

[CAOTIC]

Tibi, explain how Wobbling is the same as CG-ing, when you can A-jab the entire cast in the exact same spot without moving anywhere or releasing the character from 0% to 999%, for as long as you want?

 

[TakFR]

Tbh I think it's the other way round....half the melee***s won't be playing brawl whilst brawlers will be playing melée.

but umm wobbling and brawl cg are essentially the same thing, level of difficulty is the only difference =\.

I hate wobbling and brawl cg, ban them both!

Actually considering we pay for both regardless most people will be playing both =)

 

[tibs7]

Caos, well essentially the same thing as in, you can do it anywhere, DI is useless, can work on everyone, can happen from one grab, can potentially be a zero - death. Can be used for stalling purposes. Mmm pretty dayum similar I think

 

[Splice]

Splice, a Wobble is not the same as a chaingrab -- please don't compare the two. A Wobble is an attack that can last as long as the player wants. There's no release phase in-between grabs or anything of that sort -- to best describe Wobbling would be grab-jabbing forever with no opportunity to escape. Not everyone is arguing about the avoidability issue of Wobbling. Just fyi.

Also Tibi, only Aussie voters that play in Melee tournaments will be counted by me. And I'll do some manual counting to make sure people have their votes in the right place.

Cao in Brawl a CG can last until the IC's player gets bored/stuffs up/decides to charge Usmash. Don't really understand why you are asking me not to compare the two, I see no reason for you to plead me not to when the two things in question are essentially the exact same except one is hard.

I am not counting the difficulty of performing these tactics either, as I don't believe that should come into banning them. The difficulty of dealing with them, would make more sense as something to base an opinion off.

Note that I do not care for ICs Melee CG in this argument; it should not impact wobblings legality, it is a different matter. I merely brought up the IC's CG in Brawl for example/comparison/explanation of my stance on the matter.

So would anyone care to think about what I mentioned and also help me form my opinion on the matter?

 

[Sirias]

This escalated quickly, lol.

It CAN be avoided, and ICs do have gay matchups - Samus, Peach, Marth even...
But you have to play gay and campy and boring like Brawl which is what most Melee people in Aus hate doing.
Really, though, it shouldn't be banned, but it's still really gay and I would much rather not have to face a grab-happy ICs that can ****.
Chudat is beast, be like him, go FD against Ken and 0 to death without wobbling, so GOOOOOOD! <3

It is a 'bit' hard to get the grab + ftilt, tho, ya.
And people can always focus on gaying Nana, a n00b, to eliminate the gaybility.
But, again, you have to play gay.
Iono.

Also, ICs are beast.
If Peach and Samus weren't SSSOOO gay to them. =/
But be like Chu and get around it and ****.
Too tired to make valid points, lol.

edit:

tibs, no, you cant do it forever (stalling) or anywhere, if you do it off a ledge/platform... you can't grab again.
you can di (some characters can (and you can also mash to get out of the grab (if youre lucky) cant mash out of wobbling (only EARLLLYYY percents, but you'd just cg into a wobble anyway))).
again, doesn't work on everyone. cg that is
0-death from 1 grab, yup, cg is gay like that to many characters
it's like ics cg in brawl
except you can get out of ics cg in brawl, right (mashing, up to 40% i think ea said)?

 

[Splice]

Thankyou Kas.

Well, going off of that then I believe

IC's wobbling should not be banned because it is beatable and motivates people to learn a new type of playing which may benefit them in other areas.

Whilst, with Melee being the game it is, enjoyed by some because of it's fast and unique gameplay, I underestand if IC's wobble being such a threat may make you more scared to play the game the way you enjoy it, and to be honest it's probably more important that the scene in general can play the way they love and enjoy, than to keep Wobbling in, despite it being possible to deal with it.

Therefore I'm happy to see this go either way, whilst I would vote yes, simply because I am fine with learning to play more defensively (derp I play brawl) to deal with MUs.

Thanks Kas.

Also the only way you can get out of ICs CG in Brawl is if they arent fast enough, yes it is hard and wobbling is easy, but, in theory a grab by IC's in Brawl (when they arent desynched badly etc.) should = loss of a stock.

 

[tibs7]

Kayusss I was comparing wobbling to cg-ing in brawl.

I thought that's what cao was asking
me? Mmmm.

 

[Attila_]

This escalated quickly, lol.

It CAN be avoided, and ICs do have gay matchups - Samus, Peach, Marth even...
But you have to play gay and campy and boring like Brawl which is what most Melee people in Aus hate doing.
Really, though, it shouldn't be banned, but it's still really gay and I would much rather not have to face a grab-happy ICs that can ****.
Chudat is beast, be like him, go FD against Ken and 0 to death without wobbling, so GOOOOOOD! <3

edit:

it's like ics cg in brawl
except you can get out of ics cg in brawl, right (mashing, up to 40% i think ea said)?

i've decided i like this guy. he seems surprisingly rational.

when push comes to shove, this is what its about, yeah? about keeping gay stuff that's in the game, out of tournament play, no?

in which case, you need to decide what you feel is important: playing the game competitively, or making it 'not gay'.

and fyi, you can't get out of ics cgs in brawl at all, if they're buffering like they should. ask afropony haha

Also the only way you can get out of ICs CG in Brawl is if they arent fast enough, yes it is hard and wobbling is easy, but, in theory a grab by IC's in Brawl (when they arent desynched badly etc.) should = loss of a stock.

heavies can't be chaingrabbed on platforms, just btw. or alternatively, you just choose mk and dair all day.

 

[CAOTIC]

General comment: When you think about it, Melee's IC CGs are similar to Brawl's IC CGs. But people aren't calling for Melee IC CG bans, even they are technically just as lethal. Try thinking about why.

 

[S.D]

Melee IC cg totally different cao, it is entirely escapable (except for the ledge cg but thats way situational).

 

[Vyse]

Competitive Player and idealist in me says yes.
Tournament director in me wanting to foster the ideal scene Melee players strive for in our country says no.

Wobbles proved that this kind of chain grab combined with this kind of character can single-handedly influence and skew tournament results. And that was like, 3 years ago.

Personally I don't have a problem with it. Just as I don't find being CG'd in Brawl annoying or being timed out by superior positioning and camping annoying. Personally speaking, being beaten by theory put into practice - even if people think it's gay/lame - just motivates me to get better.

If I got wobbled to death 4 times, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

But it's clear in Australia that this single legion on the face of Melee doesn't belong. It does not fit what we want to consider to be a standard part of competitive Melee. I feel the decision is arbitrary, but no more so than having a ledge grab limit apply to only MK in Brawl. So I'd support keeping it banned, even if only due to double standards.

tl:dr Basically I'm for unbanning it based on lofty ideals on what constitutes banworthy and I don't believe it is, despite it's potential to be over-centralising. But I completely understand and even support keeping it banned in the spirit of 'Fun and fair play'.

 

[iamjason8]

... Hyesz!!

=D

 

[swordsaint]

My standpoint hasn't changed since the post in the robocop thread.

It all boils down to the fact that it's beatable. How 'gay' it is and how not fun it is isn't relevant here. People aren't complaining because they can't beat it, people are complaining because they find it boring to play against. That's not ban-worthy, it's not unbeatable.

The only things that are banned in EITHER games are generally things that are looked at as unbeatable.

Brawl and Melee are different games, but an infinite and the consequences of being hit by an infinite are the same. So why do Melee players have a bigger problem with it? It's a personal preference, not a real legitimate reason to ban it.