Reason Why Meta Knight SHOULDN'T be ban

[Doggalina]

Ulevo, I'd like to note that I never argued for or against a ban. In this thread, all I've done is correct misconceptions (such as "DK is a Meta counter" and "MK can't kill")

 

[fangochango]

if mk is banned , phelps should be banned from swimming competitions 8-)...

 

[Lozt]

if mk is banned , phelps should be banned from swimming competitions 8-)...

wtf?!?!?!? xD jajajjaja 8-)

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

lol tru datz

 

[Deathcarter]

I do not know why people do not just put MK, Snake, G&W, Marth, DDD, Falco, and maybe ROB in their own tier and leave the other characters in a "south" tier. At the very least, every other character in the game has at least 2 disadvantagous matchups between the remaining 30 character roster. We will live with having south tier tournaments and north (sacred six/seven) tier tournaments. Everyone is happy.

Plus, do realize we have a humongous low/bottom tier in Melee. I think my idea is somewhat pratical.

(btw Dedede limits the roster much more than Meta. Big advantages on Wario and DK ftl.)

 

[Ilex]

if mk is banned , phelps should be banned from swimming competitions 8-)...

Metaknight isn't a player like Phelps, Metaknight is a tool. A better comparison would be, say, steroids because no matter how good the pl;ayer is they can still win from using it. If we ban Metaknight we should ban steroids in the olympics.

 

[Mew2King]

I'm sorry but I will take take anything from this thread dealing with meta mains. Cause it can all be bais.

Most characters cant do much about the tornado with Meta. Why you think people spam that move? If it was that simple to punish, meta's would not be spamming the move now would they? They spam it cause lil you can do about it and you can get away with it.

Why you think M2k mains meta? M2k plays to win and plays gay. He does not care, he just wants to win. So any character that you can beast and be gay with, most people will pick them alot just to win. Meta is a good character that ***** everyone. And Has good priority. I don't care about how you meta's play. But if you can't see where the other side is comming from, then you are just being bold cause he is your mains.

wow do you know me at all? you're an idiot. I mained MK when I thought AND heard Snake was the best character, BECAUSE METAKNIGHT IS FUN, YOU CAN DO MELEE STUFF, MOVE FAST, AND IMPROVE A LOT WITH HIM. DeDeDe gets boring and repetitive, so I tried to main MK. This was back when my DDD still beat every single pro the majority of the time, and I believed snake to be the best character, but the way you had to play at high level to use him was boring to me, like grenade camping. If you wanna cry about MK so much, why not just use him? No jones, if you can't use him then you're not good enough

Oh and for the record I don't play extremely gay, nor gay at all, I pick neutral stages, sometimes Delphino because it's my FAVORITE stage to play on, I don't ledge camp to stall timers like some people I know, I try to finish matches before the time runs out, I'm pushing back room to make the timer 8 minutes instead of 7, I try to do actual, legit combos a lot of the time, and experiment with things. You don't know anything.

btw if someone tornados you, just angle your shield up, and/or jump over it. It will never shield stab you if you angle your shield up, and you can hit through it with dair, among other moves. It's a broken move, but spamming it only works vs noobs, or in teams.

stop trying to blame thing on characters, I don't have any problem using A LOT of characters at extremely high level at melee, if you actually knew me at all you would know I can do that, and if you disagree with this statement, you are blatantly wrong, and have no idea what you are talking aout. If you're a GOOD PLAYER, you can use practically ANYONE. A character being FUN to use is a BIG factor however, and I personally find metaknight FUN

if you lose to scrubby metas you are NOT a high level player

if you think you can just use him to show how he's gay, then bring it on, MK dittos all the way, just like how Marth dittos were in Melee. Matchup experience is very important (although, I always thought MK was pretty easy to fight, but every character I'm good with in melee I also have an easy time fighting against, except fighting Sheik unless it's a sheik ditto, so maybe I'm just weird like that, but my point still stands).

 

[Affinity]

wow do you know me at all? you're an idiot. I mained MK when I thought AND heard Snake was the best character, BECAUSE METAKNIGHT IS FUN, YOU CAN DO MELEE STUFF, MOVE FAST, AND IMPROVE A LOT WITH HIM. DeDeDe gets boring and repetitive, so I tried to main MK. This was back when my DDD still beat every single pro the majority of the time, and I believed snake to be the best character, but the way you had to play at high level to use him was boring to me, like grenade camping. If you wanna cry about MK so much, why not just use him? No jones, if you can't use him then you're not good enough

Oh and for the record I don't play extremely gay, nor gay at all, I pick neutral stages, sometimes Delphino because it's my FAVORITE stage to play on, I don't ledge camp to stall timers like some people I know, I try to finish matches before the time runs out, I'm pushing back room to make the timer 8 minutes instead of 7, I try to do actual, legit combos a lot of the time, and experiment with things. You don't know anything.

btw if someone tornados you, just angle your shield up, and/or jump over it. It will never shield stab you if you angle your shield up, and you can hit through it with dair, among other moves. It's a broken move, but spamming it only works vs noobs, or in teams.

stop trying to blame thing on characters, I don't have any problem using A LOT of characters at extremely high level at melee, if you actually knew me at all you would know I can do that, and if you disagree with this statement, you are blatantly wrong, and have no idea what you are talking aout. If you're a good PLAYER, you can use practically ANYONE. A character being FUN to use is a BIG factor however, and I personally find metaknight FUN

if you lose to scrubby metas you are NOT a high level player

if you think you can just use him to show how he's gay, then bring it on, MK dittos all the way, just like how Marth dittos were in Melee. Matchup experience is very important (although, I always thought MK was pretty easy to fight, but every character I'm good with in melee I also have an easy time fighting against, except fighting Sheik unless it's a sheik ditto, so maybe I'm just weird like that, but my point still stands).

*Shakes M2K's Hand*

 

[Kratos1]

wow do you know me at all? you're an idiot. I mained MK when I thought AND heard Snake was the best character, BECAUSE METAKNIGHT IS FUN, YOU CAN DO MELEE STUFF, MOVE FAST, AND IMPROVE A LOT WITH HIM. DeDeDe gets boring and repetitive, so I tried to main MK. This was back when my DDD still beat every single pro the majority of the time, and I believed snake to be the best character, but the way you had to play at high level to use him was boring to me, like grenade camping. If you wanna cry about MK so much, why not just use him? No jones, if you can't use him then you're not good enough

Oh and for the record I don't play extremely gay, nor gay at all, I pick neutral stages, sometimes Delphino because it's my FAVORITE stage to play on, I don't ledge camp to stall timers like some people I know, I try to finish matches before the time runs out, I'm pushing back room to make the timer 8 minutes instead of 7, I try to do actual, legit combos a lot of the time, and experiment with things. You don't know anything.

btw if someone tornados you, just angle your shield up, and/or jump over it. It will never shield stab you if you angle your shield up, and you can hit through it with dair, among other moves. It's a broken move, but spamming it only works vs noobs, or in teams.

stop trying to blame thing on characters, I don't have any problem using A LOT of characters at extremely high level at melee, if you actually knew me at all you would know I can do that, and if you disagree with this statement, you are blatantly wrong, and have no idea what you are talking aout. If you're a good PLAYER, you can use practically ANYONE. A character being FUN to use is a BIG factor however, and I personally find metaknight FUN

if you lose to scrubby metas you are NOT a high level player

if you think you can just use him to show how he's gay, then bring it on, MK dittos all the way, just like how Marth dittos were in Melee. Matchup experience is very important (although, I always thought MK was pretty easy to fight, but every character I'm good with in melee I also have an easy time fighting against, except fighting Sheik unless it's a sheik ditto, so maybe I'm just weird like that, but my point still stands).

Seeing as I don't really care, this means nothing to me. The average meta players play gay and spam tornado. And people lose to it. That is why they ***** about Meta. And some even want him bann. Wether you wanna except it or not, meta pisses alot off, thus people want him out. And can be played really gay. I just took you for the average meta, no matter how good you are. People will always go on about the character and how much they hate him. And thats nothing no one can change.

 

[Mew2King]

low level play doesn't matter, if those metaknights pose a threat to you, you aren't tourney quality. I don't mean you specifically, but in general, that statement applies.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

bcuz you guys suck lol tornado easy to stop

 

[Kratos1]

low level play doesn't matter, if those metaknights pose a threat to you, you aren't tourney quality. I don't mean you specifically, but in general, that statement applies.

I will say sorry for mistaking you for the average meta. But you need to see where I am coming from. Ether way it was wrong.

But there are some characters that have a hard time with the tornado. So they don't have many options. Yet a reason it is spammed.

 

[Brightside6382]

Seeing as I don't really care, this means nothing to me. The average meta players play gay and spam tornado. And people lose to it. That is why they ***** about Meta. And some even want him bann. Wether you wanna except it or not, meta pisses alot off, thus people want him out. And can be played really gay. I just took you for the average meta, no matter how good you are. People will always go on about the character and how much they hate him. And thats nothing no one can change.

when did anyone start caring about what terrible players think?

 

[Mew2King]

im telling you, just block, and angle your shield up

tornado is stopped, then you have the advantage. worst comes to worst, no one has the advantage, but at least you stop it

 

[Clouderz]

anyone who is arguing with M2K (especially kratos, who the hell is he) obviously has no idea what their talking about, i would THINK M2K knows more than you about smash -_-


omg no wai, M2K says no jones, just like i do, saweeettt...

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

stfu clouderz you only play online

 

[Clouderz]

stfu clouderz you only play online

oh em gee, you LIES! i barley play online anymore, well...i do, to experiment, but nothing wrong with that amirite? ._. and i've won all the tournies ive went too (nothing big, nothing big at all lol ) but still, just because i play online doesnt mean im not good offline foo, tee hee

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

nothing im jking but your still cool as ****

 

[Clouderz]

nothing im jking but your still cool as ****

inorite? lawl, thx... ^_^

back on topic...umm, yeah, i mostly just use tornado against people who dont know what to do about it seeing its fun to get them pissed off rofl but still its ez to counter it, if you know how to play ._.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

yea lol angle your shield
jason: MK dittos all day at CH4

 

[Kratos1]

im telling you, just block, and angle your shield up

tornado is stopped, then you have the advantage. worst comes to worst, no one has the advantage, but at least you stop it

And you can't get shield stabbed no matter what size your shield is?

 

[Taiki]

I'd like to point out that you can block the first tornado. Considering how long it takes to regain your shield MK could just use tornado again and force you to eat the damage. On topic though, MK doesn't deserve a ban, hes a pain in the *** yes, but not banworthy. Considering there is no legal tech that makes any MK outplay any other character and it's just skill, granted that MK has far to many options at any point in time, you just have to be outright better at reading people and spacing with your char over MK to win. It's a pain in the *** yes, but doable.

 

[TeeVee]

I'd like to point out that you can block the first tornado. Considering how long it takes to regain your shield MK could just use tornado again and force you to eat the damage. On topic though, MK doesn't deserve a ban, hes a pain in the *** yes, but not banworthy. Considering there is no legal tech that makes any MK outplay any other character and it's just skill, granted that MK has far to many options at any point in time, you just have to be outright better at reading people and spacing with your char over MK to win. It's a pain in the *** yes, but doable.

Exactly, I have no problems blocking the first nado, it's the barage of other ones when my shield is crippled that I have no answer for...

 

[Mew2King]

i do, it's called punish mk after tornado, or expect another one, since they obviously are stupid enough to do that, and dair camp over their head.

not hard, just outwit people

 

[TeeVee]

i do, it's called punish mk after tornado, or expect another one, since they obviously are stupid enough to do that, and dair camp over their head.

not hard, just outwit people

I'm a Rob main :[

 

[Goldkirby]

I'm a Rob main :[

Tornado shouldn't be that effective then. Just roll away and laser or something. If they are dumb about using tornado, you can just laser them without rolling or throw you little top.

 

[Affinity]

I'm a Rob main :[

Then N-air camp

 

[Wayland]

Snake does good and is consider Meta's true counter. If meta does not get cheap kills of of Snake, Snake beats Meta.

Ok, MK has no "true counter". Learn what the **** a counter is. A counter is a matchup that is very heavily against a character. MK is not really countered by anyone. So quit looking. You've heard all about the people who have a sporting chance at beating MK, so pick one.

 

[Deathcarter]

Hypothesis time, you all achknowledge Meta Knight is beatable right and I agree. You all claim Meta Knight has a few even matchups in Snake, DK, G&W, Marth, Lucario, ZSS, Diddy, and a few more 6:4 advantages. Assuming the scrub Metas get knocked out in one round and that there are quite a few top players not using Meta Knight, how is that G&W, a character with matchups rivaling Meta Knight's who is fourth place in the most recent non-detailed rankings, behind Meta KNight in the tournament rankings by OVER SIX-HUNDRED FRICKIN' POINTS?!?! Meta Knight is beatable yes, but how is he not broken with results that overwhelming?

 

[KoJ]

Ban him? No, not yet. Not until the metagame is truly swarming with him, and only him.

Still, Metaknight is a curse and plague on the metagame. He takes little skill to use and is very, very, VERY good, so lots of people use him. N00bs use him because he's their only way out. People just wanting money use him because he's ****ing amazing, and does not have a single matchup that really requires them to play better than the opponent. Snake might be amazing too, but at least he's not swarming the metagame.

It's even worse when you consider that so many characters have a horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE matchup against Meta. That means those characters become practically unusable by anyone lower in skill than literal gods of the game. Therefore, Meta makes tourneys less varied. I didn't say Meta WINS tourneys, I said he clogs them up with Metas and people who have a chance against Meta.

Finally... Meta just frustrates people. A Meta player can be half the skill level of another player, and he'll still play evenly. The Whorenado IS overpowered, as most of the strategies against it leave the Meta more in control than the person fighting him. Shield? Reduce the lag, end outside of their range, Whorenado again. No chance of shielding this time, is there? D-Air? Requires the Metaknight not to see it coming, which any smart Metaknight should know about. Higher-priority move? Most of the high-priority moves are ones that are rarely used anyway, and many of them either hit under the height of a raised tornado, or require start-up lag.

How about the lack of kill moves? Nope, no lack in sight. Gimping slaughters many characters. D-Smash and S-Loop are easy kill moves as well.

Lack of projectiles? Metaknight flies into the projectile user's face and slaughters at close range. Meta has 0, count them, 0 BAD MATCHUPS. He has a few matchups where he's equal/at a slight disadvantage, but that's not really going to matter.

So yeah, don't ban Meta yet, as he's certainly beatable, but it's no use defending against the facts: Meta is amazing, Meta has zero BAD matchups, Meta is extremely easy to use for even a Brawl character, Meta's weaknesses are either non-existent, or pretty much insignificant in the big picture, and most of all, Meta Knight is killing the meta game.

 

[Ulevo]

****ing A, M2K.

Deathcarter, do you want to know why Meta Knight has the most points in the character ranking list? It's very simple really. It's because he's easy to use.

THE CHARACTER RANKING LIST IS NOT A TIER LIST.

Do not use it in your arguments to justify how Meta Knight is banned. I, along with M2K, as well as others believe Snake is better than Meta Knight. Meta Knight still has more tournament results. That is because Snake is a harder character to use at full capacity, and because of the ease of use and popularity, Meta Knight gets more representation. And in that sea of scrubs beating up other scrubs at scrubs tournaments with just Meta Knight, because they wish to win with a character because of tier placement, you will unfortunately have a lot of (poor) character representation for that ranking.

There is no doubt Meta Knight is a good character. But at high level play, as already stated, most characters can viably compete to win, and guess what? You can have fun doing it too.

If your argument is purely stating Meta Knight is the best character, then that's fine. That's your opinion, and one that is relevant to the reality of tiers, which will not be absent in any fighting game.

 

[Throwback]

There's a thread in this forum arguing that Yoshi has a good matchup vs MK. There's no real discussion in it yet though - I would love to read the opinions of the top players.

 

[TKD]

There's a thread in this forum arguing that Yoshi has a good matchup vs MK. There's no real discussion in it yet though - I would love to read the opinions of the top players.

Yoshi has an advantage on FD and Smashville, only two stages. Supposedly it's a 60/40 advantage. It may only be even though.

 

[Ulevo]

Yoshi has an advantage only on FD and Smashville, only two stages. Supposedly it's a 60/40 advantage. It may only be even though.



Metaknight's Current Matchups

80/20 (practically pointlessly big advantage)
Jigglypuff
Mario
Sonic
Bowser
P.Trainer
Ganondorf
Ness
Lucas
C.Falcon

70/30 (heavy advantage)
Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Peach
Ike
Zelda/Sheik
Fox
Wolf
Pit
Luigi

60/40 (small advantage)
Olimar
Yoshi
Lucario
Kirby
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Marth
G&W

50/50 (even matchup)
Meta Knight
Falco
Diddy Kong
Wario
Snake
Donkey Kong


The only characters I see with potential of moving up are the last four. Diddy, Wario, Snake and DK. It's possible they have a slight advantage on MK, but it seems no one actually knows yet. The problem is, even most Diddy, Wario, Snake and DK mains argue that their character has no advantage over MK.

But still! MK is so good, it's possible that better players are so focused on playing only as MK to win, that we haven't given a chance to those four possible light counters to MK...plus Yoshi in FD and SV, but meh, who wants to play as Yoshi?

EDIT: I just noticed there's no Samus on the list. No Zamus either. I don't know where they stand.

Just because Yoshi has a Chain Grab on Meta Knight doesn't mean he has the advantage. Even on a stage that's flat. It doesn't guarantee a spike, only %. As far as I'm concerned, Marths Grab Release is better than Yoshis, and Marth still has problems. Yoshi is at the disadvantage, Chain Grab or not.

Wario does not go 50/50 with Meta Knight. Meta Knight out prioritizes Wario in the air provided he stays in align with him, which isn't difficult to do. He simply can't compete in the air. Watch out for Wafts and knock him off the bike while avoiding vertical confrontation, and Warios options are limited.

G&W has the advantage in the match up. I'm not sure why he has a disadvantage.

The rest of the characters in the 50/50 margin should probably be in the 60/40 other. The have the upper hand on Meta Knight, excluding himself obviously.

 

[Deathcarter]

****ing A, M2K.

Deathcarter, do you want to know why Meta Knight has the most points in the character ranking list? It's very simple really. It's because he's easy to use.

THE CHARACTER RANKING LIST IS NOT A TIER LIST.

Do not use it in your arguments to justify how Meta Knight is banned. I, along with M2K, as well as others believe Snake is better than Meta Knight. Meta Knight still has more tournament results. That is because Snake is a harder character to use at full capacity, and because of the ease of use and popularity, Meta Knight gets more representation. And in that sea of scrubs beating up other scrubs at scrubs tournaments with just Meta Knight, because they wish to win with a character because of tier placement, you will unfortunately have a lot of (poor) character representation for that ranking.

There is no doubt Meta Knight is a good character. But at high level play, as already stated, most characters can viably compete to win, and guess what? You can have fun doing it too.

If your argument is purely stating Meta Knight is the best character, then that's fine. That's your opinion, and one that is relevant to the reality of tiers, which will not be absent in any fighting game.

Thanks for clarifying Ulevo. Meta Knight at least does not shut down any high tier characters completely (unlike that pompous bloat King Dedede). Plus, Meta Knight, even though I hate him for his imbalance, IS fun to watch (god forbid MK gets banned and King Dedede becomes the second most used character...ugh).

 

[Throwback]

It would be great if the Yoshi arguments could go to the relevant thread (can't link, I'm at work), it's in this forum, on the front page. That way you will get coherent responses from people who main Yoshi, ie not me.

 

[Mew2King]

Wow @ point system, that's a system of POPULARITY. There is nothing subtracted from losing

that point system is COMPLETELY BASED ON POPULARITY. In other words, Sonic the hedgehog would be too high, etc. Stuff like that is heavily influenced by popularity and what other people do. If you want actual opinions on chars, ask the pros, and stop giving up immediately because your character isn't popular, that's all the more reason to use him, no one will have EXPERIENCE AT FIGHTING HIM, WHICH IS A BIG DEAL IN BRAWL. We might not know everything, but it's way better than a stupid popularity list, and a lot of those tourneys won by MKs are MKs that i helped get better. I taught vidjo, dsf, infernoomni, plank, jman, and several other people a lot of my MK stuff to help them get better (Forte too but only recently), and Plank is coming over my house (or cactuars who i would be staying with) most likely, within mon-wednesday or something like that he told me on aim a few hours ago so I can get him better for Axis.

I don't think snake is better than mk anymore, but only because of the fact that he doesn't get gayed as badly. I still think snake is better at a lot of matchups though, and 1 on 1 has the advantage vs mk, and I would rather MK ditto than fight snake, even though I **** both characters.

edit - ive won almost 10 tourneys in brawls early days using DDD, that also influenced the list and probably put DDD higher than he should be, although I think he is really good though.

 

[Ulevo]

I think M2K gets the point I'm trying to get across. I'm tired of this popularity garbage, and how Meta Knight is overpowered, how he should be banned, and the johns that follow. Most characters can compete if you spend the time to use them appropriately, even against Top or High Tier characters.

Play who you love to play for the reasons you love playing them for, whatever that may be.

I recently dropped Marth because he simply bores me to death while playing with him, probably due to me exploring the aspects on his game to ridiculous detail. I main Meta Knight, Falco, and Dedede, as well as sub G&W. I mained Falco and Meta Knight prior to leaving Marth, and recently picked up Dedede. I play who I love to play. If I become bored of one character, I move on to another. I may float back to another depending on how I feel. But I play who I like. I don't understand why it's so difficult for other people to do the same.

 

[M@v]

Lucario really doesnt have much trouble against MK at all, at least in my expereiences. Aura sphere owns tornado, almost all of lucarios attacks outrange Mks. Only thing mk got on him is recovery and speed. Edguarding is about even actually, since Lucario has insane priority aerials.

 

[Mmac]

One, where did that chart came from?

Two:

Just because Yoshi has a Chain Grab on Meta Knight doesn't mean he has the advantage. Even on a stage that's flat. It doesn't guarantee a spike, only %. As far as I'm concerned, Marths Grab Release is better than Yoshis, and Marth still has problems. Yoshi is at the disadvantage, Chain Grab or not.

There's alot more reason on why Yoshi has the advantage than just a Chaingrab, but this isn't really the place to discuss such a thing. If you're talking about the Grab Release off the ledge to Fair that was discovered about 3 days ago? If yes, then it is a guarantee spike. I also wonder if you're getting confused with Yoshi Release to Usmash... Marth's unavoidable Usmash that kills at about 80% is better than an unavoidable Spike that kills at 48%? Plus an unavoidable Nair also that also kills at 80%?

And I can see why Yoshi can have some problems on Battlefield, Lylat, ect. but the Release attacks still apply, just need positioning. Plus his Uair and Eggs work very well if MetaKnight has the high ground