Real skill with characters/ nuetral and cp stages

[Oracle]

An example: Falco, down A, to reflector shield, to down a, to L-cancel, to down A, to L-cancel to UP A. Opponent is dead.

Guys he has a point.
Dtilt->Shine->Dtilt->Shine is gay.

 

[booshk]

this is a dumb thread...

play m2k or mango and tell them to use a low tier.
you use a high tier.
you will still lose.

this already contradicts your argument...

 

[Zeadro]

Guys he has a point.
Dtilt->Shine->Dtilt->Shine is gay.

Thank you. THank you very much. If i could get my point across to one person in the world by making this thread. I have improved the world by one person. I'm glad someone else realizes what i've been saying this whole time.

Kishiru: You need to stop post stalking me. ANd while you sit at your computer laughing at every remark these guys make, possibly learn something new instead of being so ignorant.

DarkSonic: I respect you as a person. And recognize that it must have tooken you along time to get that way with marth. But to me i could easly come along with marth, train just as hard as you, and beat you. ONe, like i said, marth doesn't really require skill, Yeah, you would whoop me if we played now, infact, you whooped me when i played as Dr. Mario. And yes, you would whoop me with Roy. I have 0% doubt in my mind that, that would be the outcome.

Thank you for posting the Cp's(you know who you are)

To all others, If you would actually read the post instead of skim reading, and actually look at how a character plays during a fight Ex:fox/falco/Marth, perhaps you'll be like "OMG the Skynerd/Zeadro was right the whole time. It only took 70% of my health for me to be killed by Fox's Smash Up A.(Disregarding DI's). But if you look at it from that angle it should all make sense.

And to all who bash me, Keep it coming, I anticipated this along time ago while i was thinking all of this in my mind and going over it again and again so that i could make a ligitimate point. Once again i thank you for your responses whether good or bad. Whether you agree with me or don't, I think it's cool that we have a smash community and am glad we have such dedicated members. Thanks

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Troll? Nearly same exact thread posted by same guy in the brawl forum?

I wish I could get the d-tilt-->shine--> d-tilt--->shine--->death combo with falco. Sounds simple.

Either way...character doesn't determine skill, players do. Higher the tier, the easier time you will have getting better. In order to win with lowtiers you have to be way better than your opponent. If you aren't, your opponent will capitalize on more openings due to characters and will then win.

 

[황미영]

Ignorant about what? Also, Zeadro found out about waveshining at the end of last year after seeing someone do it. To be honest he has no idea how much technical skill it takes to use a character to it's full potential. I even explained to him that even before characters weren't use this way until people started figuring out new things with those characters.

And if you read the other post to them you just seem like a troll. But it's sad to see that you're truly not. And if you want to me a legitimate post. Use good grammar and actual info to base your opinions on.

 

[❀W.E.M.P.❀]

Zeadro, 1 winged angel was trolling the **** out of you.

But to be fair , you show me a tourney match where any well known falco gets on another well known player in dtilt>shine>dtilt>shine I will admit to you that you are right and will never pick up falco again.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

playing marth and playing pichu is like playing two diferent games completly. its two completly diferent playstyles. its virtually impossible to compare them as one skill.

for example, mastering karate doesnt make you good any at muay thai.

if you want to say fox, falco, and marth are easy, use them in a tournament first. imo you dont have the right to say how easy they are to use unless you take the time to use them.

 

[Tichinde925]

All the pros have a "WIN" Button on their controller. They just press it, stuff happens, and they win.

You should see ZoSo's controller. It controls you.

 

[darkoblivion12]

Zeadro, I have a video to show you:
Me vs the best ganon in our area
A little background: Ganon is the crappiest matchup for roy outside of the ******** floaties: jiggs, peach, samus.

My marth gets trashed pretty hard in the first match. I use marth because he has good matchups vs ganon, jiggs, peach and samus. so what does it mean when i do 10x better with roy than marth? does it mean i am clearly more skilled than the ganon player? No. It means I am most comfortable playing Roy, even in cases where I have a crappy matchup. also, my roy is beast.

 

[tect]

I'm sorry to say it too, Zeadro, but 1 w1nged @ngel just trolled you. Hard.

Here is my take on this. I do not know you as a person, nor have I ever heard anything about you so don't take anything personally.

Your mindset towards the game is one that I have seen a number of times in my years playing this game. New players who come to my university Smash club often ridicule the top players for using high-tiered characters. Ironically, they would often learn who the high-tiered characters are WHEN they played us for the first time, but that's a different point altogether.

The idea here is that if you are playing the game at all in a competitive setting, you should acknowledge the existence of "better" characters, which you have. However, to say that these "better" characters require no skill at a higher level is pure ignorance. Numerous times throughout the thread members have made arguments that contest what they believe is flawed logic on your end. I am compelled to agree with them.

I suggest that you read their posts and reflect intelligently from a different perspective, and realize that competitive games (SSBM in particular) require skill, even if "better" characters are used.

I feel as though I haven't really added anything too useful to this thread, but I'd rather not be silent and delete my text box =D

 

[Dark Hart]

Zeadro, I don't know how serious you are about what you're saying and I personally don't care.
- You're dumb, end of story.
- Some characters are better than others, no matter how good you get with Pichu.
- You can't compare anything about competitive Melee to you and the kids you play against.
- Stop crying about how cheap higher tiered characters are, since that's what you're essentially doing.
- No one cares if you play Pichu or not.

I hope I didn't leave anything out.

EDIT: oh yea btw

- Fox and Falco are not easy characters. You're a complete moron for trying to make anyone believe that.

 

[Eggz]

in retrrospect i disagree with my own post

**** low tier players

 

[Dark Hart]

btw, I don't take back anything I said, but this little bit made me respect you.

Once again i thank you for your responses whether good or bad. Whether you agree with me or don't, I think it's cool that we have a smash community and am glad we have such dedicated members. Thanks

in retrrospect i disagree with my own post

****

 

[Zodiac]

two people can be even in skill and one can play link and one can play falco and match up will in all likely hood go to the falco player. Because falco is better then link, its obvious that some characters are better then others.

Im a link main but I have back ups for when I go up against a falco ,sheik or fox. Cause im not stubborn enough to think link is top tier and take on all match ups without a disadvantage. m2k could get through several sets at a tournament using someone like link(Assuming he plays link) but when he goes up against someone like shiz or pc chris he wont be able to do that because he skill gap is much smaller then when he plays randoms and he has to switch to a character that doesn't have such a severe disadvantage

I've been reading a lot of the post and a lot of people are mentioning characters your most comfortable with. In a tournament last weekend I vs'd a puff player, and decided to go link because I was very comfortable fighting puff with link, I posted a blog about the tournament later and good player in my area mentioned that it was a horrible decision to go link against a puff, its a bad match up for link, he was right it was illogical to go link when I have better characters like sheik and marth at my disposal. But I still won the first match by an overwhelming margin because the puff player did not know the match up. There are several reasons why someone with a low tier can win but when two players eqaul in skill and match up knowledge face off the winner will be high tier.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

hey your noob and that will make you mad but it's the truth I was a noob and got mad too I said pichu ***** falco once.

I want you to understand a few things that even I believe as a pichu main.

1. no johns, it's hard sometimes the only thing I john about is pichu's uber retardedly short sweetspot and i can't double stick di with him(fair.dair)

2.nothing is 100% impossible in melee, yes fox camping kirby is near impossible but all that means is you have to punish/ camp harder

3.everyone ice climbers and up are broken compared to the rest of the cast they all have retardly amazing things about them compared to the rest of the cast, but I only think they are broken because they they have a higher level of metagame/punishment that other people could do if they are good.

4. once you learn the basics wding,dding,shffling, and etc. 70% of the rest of the skill is mental nif not more. then filled up with combos and stuff.

5. frame by frame gameplay anyone can still 100% win

 

[n1000]

in retrrospect i disagree with my own post

The ontological implications of this statement are staggering.

In a way we have a modern Liar Paradox, instead of, "This sentence is false." Eggz plumbs the nature of character, claiming, "I don't believe in this statement."

The latter sentence cleverly skirts the "subjective truth" exception to the original LP by embracing the subjective. In a way, Eggz has internalized the truth values of a sentence into a logical system not partitioned into cosmic truths and falsehoods but one where the subjective agent, and her dealings with beliefs and knowledge are king. The universe is not P or not P but A believes P or A does not believe P

In uttering "i disagree with my own post," Eggz necessitates "agreeing" with the negation of the sentiment expressed therein. The rules of this new logical system demand it. "I don't believe P" is equivalent to "I believe in not P"

In negating "I disagree with my own post" the contradiction becomes clear, Eggz agrees and he disagrees, he believes and doesn't believe.

Further questions: Does this paradox pose any insurmountable problems for the logical system I have just invented? Is this new logic useful?

Perhaps every statement from an agent implicitly contains an assertion of the agent's belief in the statement. That is, "I believe that George Washington was the first president of the United States of America," contains no more information than "George Washington was the first president of the United States of America." Is this a resolution to the paradox?

Anyway, thank you for posting what has probably been the most thoughtful, discourse inspiring thread SWF in a long time. Who knew the depths of meaning which could be explored by opening up a Pandora's Box so simply as suggesting that top tiers require " little to no actual skill." Awesome work Zeadro, I value and look forward to your input on future discussions.

 

[Zodiac]

Wait a second eggz, are you saying you were better with mario before you dropped him for fox?

 

[Eggz]

i have no ****in clue what i was sayin

**** low tier though

 

[Dark Hart]

Eggz... was you tokin'?

 

[lordvaati]

in retrrospect i disagree with my own post

**** low tier players

.....I think a part of me just died.

Ignoring that, Skynerd/Zeadro, what is the outcome that you want from this? it's obviously not to ban all top/ highs/ mids, because that's what low-tier tournies are for. It's not an outcry for more mid/low/bottle reps, since there are more this generation. It's not just to say that all tops take no skill, becuse even if everyone used mid/ low/bots, they would still play with the same skill because of the player(now wants to see M2K play as M2) since that's how skill is measured. it's obviously not to abolish tier lists, since everyone and their grandma knows by now that tier lists are just really scoring charts in particular areas of a character and they are ranked as such. It's not to have a return of item play, since we had that for 3 years in Melee and decided it's not really posible, nor in Brawl since they do have competitive item play. so it must be said, man:

WHERE'S THE BEEF?

 

[Geist]

Every time Zeadro posts it sounds less like an argument and more like character johns.

 

[황미영]

He basically wants people to think critically about the competitive scene. But he fails to do so since he doesn't post concrete evidence and he is pretty much biased.

 

[Aisuryu]

i havent been to a sanctioned tourney like most of you guys,tho i hope i can some day....on with my point....ive mained for the most part middle tier characters Samus and Luigi and once in awhile i like to have fun playing as link to piss off one of my friends.But in the past year i found one person who picked up fox and peach as his main and then we came here and started trying to learn more tech skills(wding,dding,L-cing,etc.) after alot of effort we both are now pretty even with my samus standing up to his fox and luigi able to sometimes stand up to peach....so ive read alot more on the other higher tier characters and tried playing as sheik and marth neither of which suited me nor did i seem to stand a chance at getting down...i blame playing in middle tier for so long and not having real competition to improve against...sorry sidetracked again....the point is i agree with what alot of people have already said,

1.Tier list only applies when the level of skill is equal or with a minimal gap.

2.Zeadro you might be better than me idk since ive never played you but im willing to bet if we met on my terms youd still lose due to your own handicaped mindset...and my terms are 4 stock 8 mintue limit on FD on lighting melee,stage is a small factor but FD is the most nuetral or "fair" stage in my opinion tho im partial to poke floats myself for the random entertainment it provides.

3.Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth are,again in my opinion,the hardest characters in the game to master since my definition of mastering them means knowing every option you have in your arsenal to attack,defend,react,counter etc. everything your oppenent can throw at you and do it consistently.

ill leave it on this note....imagine running on a tread mill,threading a needle,and solving a complex math problem all at the same time,hard right? well imagine doing it multiple times in 8 minutes,oh yeah no calculators allowed. haha

 

[Pi]

There is no way someone can be so ignorant.

And on the off chance that you're NOT trying to troll and jerking off to the fact that people are taking you seriously, high placing low tier mains get MAD props in the smash community. If you can't place well and refuse to wrap your mind around the fact that it's you who sucks and not the character then you need to seriously consider quitting the game. The first step is to admit you have a problem. I'll do it for you. You have a problem.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Its pretty easy to understand it takes more skill with low tier characters to win.

 

[t3h Icy]

HDL mentions a lot on why he uses Link in his interview.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Guys he has a point.
Dtilt->Shine->Dtilt->Shine is gay.

ROFL. Im going to sig this.

 

[Steelia]

Once upon a time,
in Brawl,
I had mained a Toon Link.
This would be since the time the game came out.
Months/Year later, bro's friend walks in, never touched Brawl before.
He picks Meta Knight.
I win the match
but with only 1 life left.
I lose nearly all my stock to that guy,
AS MY BEST CHARACTER.
It was then I realized,
"Hey,
there's something wrong with this game."

I main Mewtwo in Melee.
I fight Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, my bros playing these characters, you name it.
They put up nice fights,
but they lose.
Sometimes multi-stocked a match,
if I'm in the right mood.

Catch my drift?

...brawl players

My thought(s) exactly, LOL.

*FYI, I still can't do the whole shine thing with Fox/Falco yet, and I've played the game since roughly 2002.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wind can't blow you off dreamland, fyi

 

[Siglemic]

Zeadro, you're so wrong it's not even funny

No one at tournaments has this "you just got owned" mentality, i've never heard someone call another player "garbage" unless it was jokingly

Also, DL's wind cannot blow you off of dreamland, you stay at the edge, it's a neutral, get over it

go to a tournament before making silly assumptions imo

also, LOL, YOU THINK PLACING HIGH WITH A GOOD CHARACTER TAKES NO SKILL

you're kewl

also

An example: Falco, down A, to reflector shield, to down a, to L-cancel, to down A, to L-cancel to UP A

what the eff is this lmao

i started out loling at this thread, then i cried ;_;

the sad part is i know people like you exist, i've met too many of them =[

 

[thesage]

Yoshi's Story and Battlefield have killed me many times. DL 64's wind has barely ever affected me.

Yoshi's shy guys can **** Ness and Luigi or help somebody survive and kill move or di out of a combo...

Battlefield's ledge is ********.

Pokemon Stadium's camera is ******** when it comes to recovering.

Fountain of Dreams' platforms can screw up you're spacing, edgeguarding, or l-cancels at random times.

FD and DL 64 are the least random stages...

 

[Siglemic]

FD and BF are the least random

but yeah, dream land is pretty fair

especially against peach =]

 

[Tairseth]

OP I think the Neutral your talking about is Yoshi's Story. You have Yoshi's Island posted. Sorry to nitpick.

 

[VA]

This topic seems pretty dumb. Sounds like the OP is raging cos he mains pichu or something.

Look, characters that are top tier have well established and complicated meta games. They involve deep levels of play. Low tier characters are by and large undeveloped. Therefore if you start out playing pichu and trying to learn him, by virtue of me understanding a larger proportion of other characters I will be able to play pichu better than you. Choosing low tier and low tier only is a sure fire way to be bad at the game. Like axe said you need to 1) have back up 2) know how the other charaters can play. It helps you get in the mind of your opponent if you know what they're aiming for with their character. Anyway my real point is that playing a character like pichu you have two choices 1) revolutionise to be good and recognised 2) start learning the other characters too, get as good as you can with pichu and fall back to your secondary when needed. The current standard of play between the top tier characters is very high. Their metagames are now nearly 10 years of match up experience. Whereas the pichu MUs for example have rarely been played in high level tournament situations. It's a case of capabilitiy, by picking low tier you limit what's already available to you.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Why is this trolling thread still open LMAO?

 

[CloneHat]

If you look closely, you'll see he plays DDD.

Is it just me or does that kind of CLASH with his whole "low tier characters that take skill to play" argument?