Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[FullMoon]

Water Shuriken being in the same tier as Falcon Punch is just all kinds of baffling.

 

[JayZee1700]

How in the world is water shuriken D tier? It's B tier at minimum, mostly A tier material IMO

Like I said: I may have placed some of the cast differently, due to a tier becoming too big. So Greninja, in this case, WAS a high C-tier, but I didn't want the C-Tier to overflow.

He probably is high C-Tier like I said, but this is just my opening statements. Tiers can shift.

 

[BunbUn129]

MK's Tornado is definitely better than E-tier. It's pretty crazy to suggest it's as bad as Warlock Punch, and even more absurd to rank Falcon Punch better than it.

Tornado is easier to land than Ganon's, Ike's, and Little Mac's neutral specials, and is also more rewarding than Ness's, Peach's, and G&W's neutral specials. It actually fits your description of C-tier very well.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I am not going to give that much input, but IMO, Marth and Lucina's should be pretty high. It's a bit (not very) unsafe, but when used properly, you can burst someone shield open at any time and instantly turn the tides of any game. Without rage, pretty much anyone with less than 100 weight will be downed at 40% by Lucina/30% by Marth's Tipper if they're dragged to the ledge.
Wavebounced, CBounced and BReversed Shield Break are also excellent, since they really help with the spacing and the mindgames to help you break shields.
They're also not that bad as regular moves - you can use it as a really far-reaching aerial poke. I'd consider Lucina's a better move for general use, while I'd consider Marth's better for the shield broken opponents for the maximum punish.

 

[Nah]

there's a lot of issues with JayZee's list but idk if we're supposed to point them out or not

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I don't think zard's flamethrower is C-tier. It's used too often and in too many situations. It doesn't fit the 'only useable in specific circumstances' definition you have under C-tier. Though it isn't as useful as A-tier.

 

[JayZee1700]

Honestly theres a lot wrong with my list, and I apologize for that. However, I didn't really take into consideration every situation that N-Special can be used with every character.

I didn't put the descriptions for each tier so that you could compare each character to their respective tier, but rather, I made them to summarize the average viability for each tier.

In other words, there may be some characters that don't perfectly fit the bill. Again, it's an average description of the tier. I don't think that B = Good and C = Okay.

Most of the characters fit somewhere in between C and B, or E and D, etc. There isn't anyone who is exactly A or B or whatever.

Basically, if the character MOSTLY fits the description, then it would be in that tier.

So yes, it's a pretty crappy tier list. Sorry about that. I just wanted to spark discussion I guess lol.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I also really don't know how Shulk's Neutral Special should be judged. It just works so differently from anything we've seen ever - comparing it to the others seems kinda hard and maybe redundant.

 

[Deleted member]

's Monado Arts are the most versatile neutral special in the game, but I'm not sure I'd call it the best. S tier material for sure, Shulk would be bottom 5 if it weren't for this button.

 

[BSP]

Let me say what I think about Bonus Fruit:

Overalll I think the move is at least A tier, but let's go into the projectiles specifically. The move itself is good, but it's considerably held back by being stuck on Pac-Man. I'll assume people understand their trajectories. If we're going full theoretical mode, it's S tier because the fruit enable Z drop -> footstool infinites, but IDK how seriously we're taking those.

Cherry: 4%, with the main use being for messing with low recoveries or tanking projectiles if necessary because it has a hurtbox.

Strawberry: 6%, it's basically Mario's fireball in item form. Every use of that move basically applies to the strawberry, except it has more range.

Orange: 8% and knocks opponents in a semi spike angle. Pretty good, but would be better if it wasn't so easily negated.

Apple: 9%, has a fairly unique arc as far as projectiles go, and boasts KO potential.

Melon: 12%, the least useful of them imo, but it can be good to block the ledge or plow through multiple weak projectiles. It's roughly as strong as the key knockback wise.

The next 2 fruits are where it gets crazy.

Galaxian: 9% with insane combo potential at low %. A hit a 0% from this item thrown from hand = 40% combo easily, and possibly more. At mid %, it's easy to get a 30% confirm off of a galaxian hit, or even a killing combo. This fruit is pretty insane, although it still loses to hitboxes of course. It would be broken on a character with a meteor smash tbh.

Bell: 8%. The reason this thing isn't broken is because it's on Pac-Man. It gives you access to ZSS' paralyzer out of shield. Holding it makes touching your shield incredibly risky at high %. It's also a terror on the ledge, and usually puts players in a 50/50 situation that easily results in death if Pac-Man guesses your response correctly.

Key: 15%, although it is quite weak for how long it takes to charge. This one is primarily for ranged punishes or cutting through weak projectiles. @Vyrnx I know for sure Key comes out faster than CS (and any other charge projectile for that matter) at F8, but I don't remember off the top of my head which one travels faster. It's been a while since I did that head to head. I do know that the Key travels faster than Sonic's run though.

The main selling point of Key is that it can be caught, and much like Bell makes touching Pac-Man's shield a risky endeavor. On Pac it gives him access to instant shield breaking setups if you let him close enough, otherwise he just has a 15% fast moving hitbox that can be thrown out of shield. It's only ok though because it so weak.

I think the only characters that wouldn't trade their neutral B for bonus fruit are the ones with neutral specials that are already A-S tier. The sheer versatility of the move makes it better than a lot of moves, but it's still debatable whether it's on the same level as Needles or Monado Arts. Again though, technically each fruit enables infinites via footstools.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Needles don't reduce Sheik's landing lag on aerials or airdodge by a tad or large amount, give her intangibility, or give better anything in terms of parameters / statistics. Needles definitely give Sheik a reason to force opponents to approach, but arts can take a detour to choose either to approach or disengage without care. The most simple example of this is when opponents run away from Shield, giving Shield Shulk free stage control thus allowing the player to either deactivate Shield, keep it on, or cycle to a "better" art in the Advantage.

Monado arts are not just "five options", they're five individual arts that each drastically change Shulk's parameters in more than several instances. Jump art alone changes about 8-10 different parameters, & arguably by a positive result 8 out of those 10 parameters affected are a buff for example. This art played the right way can be completely untouchable & can scrooge / shark under the majority of the legal stages Omega or not in way that, more than several characters are automatically invalidated by cheesy-verdict because their mobility cannot chase nor hope to challenge the tactic(s). And despite that this art makes you take more damage, you can be untouchable because of the 8-9 parameters buffing Shulk's mobility, so when it counts, that debuff can mean nothing.

Needles are a great projectile still, but arts are more dangerous & formidable in a vacuum discussion or discussed alone.

Fair enough, I do think Monado Arts are an S-tier neutral Special nonetheless. I just don't consider it a far and away superior special to others if its only being judged on the context of "makes Shulk a better character" as others have been doing.

Also, 's Trick Shot aka Can gets some praise from me, because the projectile generates on frame 1 & detonates should you hit DH within close proximity of being hit too. Don't recall what other projectiles form or generate a hitbox on frame 1 though.

Robin's tomes and sword, when they break, become an active hitbox on the first frame Robin is idle from the animation for the corresponding special, whether it be from natural endlag of the move, acting out on FAF, delaying with move buffering, or being put in hitstun. Can be pretty nifty for breaking out of grab punishes.

As for Thunder itself...

Thunder charge is at the least a frame 18 commitment, 7 frames for the chargeup startup, 11 frames for Thunder, Elthunder, and Arcthunder release. Thoron takes 20. This puts a double pressed Thunder at a longer startup than Samus's fully Charged Shot, but faster than Lucario's and Mewtwo's double pressed Neutral B's, though slower than their release during the charging period at 6 frames. Robin's tiered charge system is both a blessing and a curse: blessing in that Robin can continue to feint charging to the next tier in neutral without dwindling the waiting period, curse in that having to reset back to the beginning of the tier can sometimes prevent Robin from getting the charge you want in the face of zoners and rushdowners until you get a hit confirm. Nothing truly bad nor excellent about the charging itself when considering human reaction time and input delay.

Of the characters w+ith charged and retained neutral Bs, Robin is the only one aside from Miss Fit and Sheik to not have recoil from the charge when used in the air. While this means he does sacrifice general safety after launch, this also means that Robin can apply greater instant pressure after a successful hit or block/dodge on characters in the air or on platforms with the three Thunders. With how large Levin Uair and Fair are and the trapping power of Arcthunder, it can be a big deal. It also means Robin can utilize the Thunders for both edgeguarding and counter-edgeguarding. It can also be B-reversed

Robin can shoot 20 Thunders maximum per tome, dealing 4.5% fresh and moving as fast as Sonic does. Maximum range is about 40% of FD. Fairly simple potshot that's able to halt opponent's offensive momentum from initial dash startup, shorthop, and ledgeguarding with little risk to Robin. Incapable of killing.

10 Elthunders maximum per tome, dealing 10.5% fresh, so 1/8 of a person's stock when considering Checkmate and Arcthunder Fsmash. Slower than Thunder, but fast enough for catching rolls and all variations of grounded techs. Maximum range is about 80% of FD. Can kill at 180% if Robin is starving for a KO.

4 Arcthunders maximum per tome, dealing 10% total through 7 hits. Unlike the other charges and other chargable specials, Arcthunder accelerates, so it's never at a constant speed. As such it's a great roll and spotdodge catcher. Maximum range is about 85% of FD; it goes quite a ways. Can kill at 155 or so fresh on its own, but it's ability to trap characters is unlike anything else in the game. When Arcthunder catches someone, Robin can confirm into any move in his kit other than gentleman, rapid Jab, and Elthunder and its higher charges. It even procs on shields. The hitbox of Arcthunder increases when activated, so disjoints and projectiles may not be enough to protect opponents from capture if their hurtbox was close enough. It is easily intercepted regardless though; Link and Tink's bombs completely negate it, and there may be others.

Arcthunder also lets **** like this happen so that's cool. Hi Cloud and Corrin!

3 Thorons per tome, dealing either a combined 19% from 7 hits, or a combined 10.4% from 4 hits, depending on if the B button was held or not respectively. The latter Thoron kills at almost the same time as the former Thoron does and has a faster FAF by 9 frames, so it's a matter of % vs. safety. The closest thing Smash will get to having a Kamehameha, Thoron punishes rolls, spotdodges, and people lacking any more jumps in the greatest of fashions. Kills at 150 or so, range is genuinely infinite. But with a frame 20 startup, Thoron can only truly be used for reads - it's gonna get blocked if done blindly, and with the individual hits not doing much, opponents don't take heavy shield damage from it. Nonetheless, grounded Thoron is wholly safe on block....but aerial Thoron FAF is straight up abysmal. Robin can double jump offstage, fire Thoron at the apex, and still be in enough lag to where he can't Elwind recover on FD. Protecting himself with Thoron when recovering, it cannot. Doubly so since its the only Thunder spell that doesn't keep its position independent of Robin - Thoron rises and falls with Robin as he jumps and falls as well. Robin does get the grounded FAF if he lands during Thoron though.

There's not really any setups into the Thunder spells. The one that comes closest is Nair -> Thoron at 110, but that only works and gets all the hits if opponents are put into the untechable spin animation. The Thunder spells are more suited to punishing and establishing tempo and fear factor at midrange. Arcthunder procing on shields help contribute to this.

All in all, Thunder is a quintessential part of Robin's game, giving him means to establish some presence that simple evasive maneuvers cannot overcome when opponents are staying out of the Levin sword's range. The only true weakness it has aside from durability is that having one charge means Robin doesn't have the others. Hence why many Robins will often keep an Arcthunder handy more than the others, since it covers the block option the other spells lose to. But, if losing three good options is due to having one equally good option, I think that's a sign of a good move. =P

A/A+

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Shulk doesn't belong in a tier of his own. Sheik and Lucario's are also stupid good, more than good enough to be in S tier as well.

Also Ike's neutral ain't that low. There are some characters that just don't have any way to avoid it if they're sent off stage. They're stuck with a straight forwards recovery approach going "please screw up, please screw up, please screw up".

 

[QualityQ]

Have some free time, so I wanted to talk a bit about . Seems like BSP covered most of it, so I'll only throw in a few extra things.

Grabbing & throwing Galaga can build up damage quickly as you can grab it mid-arc and throw again between or after fairs.

Orange can be effective against vulnerable recoveries or simply trump > Orange. The angle is particularly good on an off-stage opponent.

Apple has powerful knockback, enough to be a kill option past 100, which PAC does not have many of.

Bell's angle allows bell into upsmash on platforms. Additionally it is very threatening as a held item.

Finally, Key can be held from throwing it against the stage. Some stages are easier than others but I believe in can be done on any stage. Key lacks real killing power but for z dropping it is great with hydrant.

Although PAC has his weaknesses, the move itself could be considered S. The versatility, z drop options, kit synergy and cancelling ability make it better than almost any projectile except needles.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryus hadouken is C tier.

That is all.

 

[|RK|]

Ryus hadouken is C tier.

That is all.

I think it's decent in a vacuum. Hover Shakunetsu Hadouken combos into Kirby's bair at kill percents. I forget what else, but a projectile as a kill confirm is pretty legit. Not sure what other chars can do with it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Character defining:
Good stuff:
Alright:
Meh:
Useless:

 

[jet56]

Honestly, it's hard to rank a special like Little Macs. He can definitely play the game and win without it, but K.O. punch itself is such a powerful tool, and literally wins games and sets by itself. his neutral special, straight lunge, also has niche uses and decent killing power. I would say B is a good spot for mac, it's better than most, but not to the point where the move itself defines the character and how he plays.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I just remembered something about zard's flamethrower that I forgot to mention earlier. It cancels out a lot of different projectiles or sets them off early. Arcthunder and arcfire are set off early if flamethrower hits them while marios fireballs, uncharged shadow balls, aura spheres and water shurikans, not to mention ZSS paralyzer are all cancelled out. It's actually better for defense and spacing than it is for offensive maneuvers (which zard doesn't have a ton of sadly) and as was previously mentioned it can knock back gordos.
It can't hit back item throws though like mechakoopas, bombs, or bonus fruit. However, this gives flamethrower an offensive and defensive versatility that's sorely lacking on most heavyweights. Though we ARE grading this in a vacuum...

 

[FamilyTeam]

I honestly think Robin's Neutral Special deserves better credit than just being "alright". It's pretty damn nifty.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think it's decent in a vacuum. Hover Shakunetsu Hadouken combos into Kirby's bair at kill percents. I forget what else, but a projectile as a kill confirm is pretty legit. Not sure what other chars can do with it.

It's not good. It is ok but one glance at the frame data and its very clear that the move is very flawed.

Especially when you consider Ryu carries over his "one projectile on screen rule" from the street fighter series.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Why're y'all sleeping on Falco? His neutral b is such a strong approach-forcer that jablocks if they miss the tech.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Forget this, nothing to see...

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Gonna attempt to categorize the specials by type, since there's such a variety in neutral specials. This is not an ordered list (yet), but could help narrow down discussion in the future.

Spoiler

Shield Cancellable Projectile:

Other Projectile:

Melee Attack:

Reflector/Counter:

Command Grab:

Other:

 

[FamilyTeam]

Really: what is the purpose of Falcon Punch outside of flashy kills? Does it have any practical application except har reads on really slow, predictable people?

 

[Routa]

I still think that Gunner's Down Smash was placed too low. Should be sharing the place with Link, Cloud and Mario.

Anyways to neutral specials and Miis.
Let's start with Swordspider's Gale Strike. The move is known to be laggy. Move comes out on frame 23 and has a FAF of 78. Bad eh? Where would you want to use it? 2 situations: edgeguarding and anti-edgeguarding. In edgeguarding it will slowly move downwards after being launched in air. The idea is to jump near the ledge and use it. This will force foe to recover high of low. In anti-edgeguarding it is used to same way. It will force the foe to shield or jump over it. This can get you some room to breath. Add to that the move can be used for stalling in air. It can be used in neutral as a mix up, but not really recommended. Also the move sends foes upwards which is nice and the very end of the move has a windbox. Very situation specific move overall.

Brawler's Shot Put is weird. It can be easily wave-bounced, it is decent edgeguarding tool due to ball's angle and power. It is ofc laggy. The move is frame 28 snd has a FAF of 80. This move is used for long distance spacing and edgeguarding. When you are not near the foe you will be spamming this. Decent move in general.

Gunner's Charge Blast is like Samus' CS which is used like M2's Shadow Ball. I will say this right away: this move is used mainly for dealing damage and not killing. The idea is to charge the move in every time there is some room to breath. This move can be followed up after a Fair or Nair. Shooting a not fully charged blast is not that uncommon. In general this move is just downgraded CS. CB is still one of the most important moves in 1111 Gunner's gameplan.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Gonna attempt to categorize the specials by type, since there's such a variety in neutral specials. This is not an ordered list (yet), but could help narrow down discussion in the future.

Spoiler

Shield Cancellable Projectile:

Other Projectile:

Melee Attack:

Reflector/Counter:

Command Grab:

Other:

Unsorted (I'm dumb and forget their Neutral Special 1's):

Brawler and Swordfighter should go in other projectiles. Brawler's neutral special 1 is shot put, and Swordfighter's neutral special 1 is gale strike.

To add on to what Routa said, Gunner's charge blast isn't very powerful on its own, but it can kill around 100-120 if it is set up by a fair or flame pillar (weak flame pillar to charge blast is a kill confirm), and it only has 23 frames of endlag.

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

Shulk would (probably) be the worst character in the game without the arts.

Losing needles is a big deal, but I believe Sheik would easily be the best character with the arts. Shield and Smash basically negate her two weaknesses, and her combos would be even more insane with Jump, Speed and Buster.

Lucario would take a big hit without aura sphere, but his neutral would be as good with Speed (or Jump to take more damage). Also, Lucario with Shield would be broken.

Pac-man (And maybe Duck Hunt) is probably the only character that would rather have his own neutral special.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

It takes insane skill though to master the arts and then to switch them up mid-fight. Say you wanted to do speed mode...easy right? Just press B the required number of times.
But what if you press it one time too many and accidentally end up in jump mode for example? Correct me if I'm wrong here but don't you lose that art if you have to cancel it out. A lot of players have lost to me by accidentally overshooting their arts and then scrambling to get the right one. If you lose an art because you activated it by mistake and have to cancel it out isn't that a weakness though an easily worked around one?

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

It takes insane skill though to master the arts and then to switch them up mid-fight. Say you wanted to do speed mode...easy right? Just press B the required number of times.
But what if you press it one time too many and accidentally end up in jump mode for example? Correct me if I'm wrong here but don't you lose that art if you have to cancel it out. A lot of players have lost to me by accidentally overshooting their arts and then scrambling to get the right one. If you lose an art because you activated it by mistake and have to cancel it out isn't that a weakness though an easily worked around one?

Yeah, I've never seen Nicko or any high level Shulk ever misinput their arts on stream. I think this is a non-issue.

Some specific specials to talk about potentially being much more highly rated then seems to be the general consensus:

Pikmin pluck literally allows Olimar to function as a character. Even if you consider that he'll start off the game with 3 pikmin, the ability to repluck pikmin more suited to a matchup or stage of combat is super key. Fighting Pikachu? Build an army of yellows to power through his fairs and neutral B. Lucas? Challenge his spacing and grab range with White pikmin. Olimar's neutral special doesn't transfer well to other fighters, but it gives him an extreme versatility.

Blade beam kinda sucks. You know what doesn't? Limit blade beam. Even if it's an inferior killing option, it has to be considered as a really powerful tool that has the potential to catch and kill offstage opponents at early percents.

Unquestionably the best reflector in the game, even if it's main use isn't reflecting. At frame 5 intangibility, it's not a great combo breaker, but a huge intangibilty window and the hitboxes that overlap send every character in the game a message that they can't jump on Zelda for free.

I have seen zero discussion on Peanut Popgun, which is disappointing. Uncharged shoots at a great angle to disrupt recoveries, b reverses just add to Diddy's trickery (especially out of money flip), and being shield cancellable removes any danger of overcommiting. It's not S tier like Sheik's needles, but it's a valuable tool for the money.

Similar to Diddy in shield cancelling, but everything else is different. This move stops approaches and does its best to hit offstage opponents - if only the bullets aimed a little more down...

Arrows. Curve. 'Nuff said.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Why're y'all sleeping on Falco? His neutral b is such a strong approach-forcer that jablocks if they miss the tech.

Because it really isn't that good it's too slow to force anything, FAF of 59 means it takes nearly a second to fire a second shot off which is more than enough time for any character to close any distance between them and Falco meaning if Falco shot another laser he's getting punished hard. Because you need a great distance to ensure your safety the opponent gets 11 frames plus travel time of the first laser to react which anyone could easily shield and continue approaching. The slow laser speed also means you have to essentially anticipate missed techs in order to jab lock and fire it at the precise moment in order to get them and in most situations your better off just extending a combo off a missed tech.

It's not without use but it's not good by any means.

 

[Crystanium]

So despite all that discussion ended up in the same tier...

I'm out.

That's how I feel about this thread as well. I just returned now because I saw the neutral special.

Charge Shot

• It's a kill move.
• It deals 26% damage.
• It can break shields by using a bomb or super missile first. (Fun fact: Shielding a charge shot won't cause it to stale.)
• It eats most projectiles.

 

[Masonomace]

Really: what is the purpose of Falcon Punch outside of flashy kills? Does it have any practical application except har reads on really slow, predictable people?

Flashy punish, disrespect, & basically that's it. Oh & a delicious satisfaction of landing a bad move killing is nice. It can also floor lock at very early percents on heavies.

Otherwise? The move in a shield break scenario is useless, since a full-charged Fsmash or Usmash will kill at a earlier percent than a B-Reversed Falcon Punch. So yeah this is one of the worst moves by rank.

@←/Felicia Samuelwisebaggins . . .Vanilla Shulk isn't that bad of a character .
-

Unquestionably the best reflector in the game, even if it's main use isn't reflecting. At frame 5 intangibility, it's not a great combo breaker, but a huge intangibilty window and the hitboxes that overlap send every character in the game a message that they can't jump on Zelda for free.

I suppose you're technically right since Zelda's Nayru's Love is the only Neutral-B reflector . But to steer off discussion very slightly, I would think Falco can contest it only because his is frame 1 reflect. Zelda does outclass it in every other category except for the hitbox / reflecting range in front of 'em. But I agree with you & this tid-bit about Nayru's Love.

 

[BSP]

Samuelwisebaggins even Pac-Man should give up his fruits for Monado arts. Buster is so broken on anyone with not garbage frame data. I think Pac's dash attack and Nair would become completely safe on block if he had access to buster.

Smash trampoline would probably kill people at 150% , which would be pretty insane too.

That reminds me, people, to imagine how silly pac's fruits could be, just imagine fighting Kirby that always has access to BF. If you try to camp him out, he gets killing or confirming projectiles to mess you up with, and since Kirby has decent throws he gets confirms out of them with the correct fruit.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Robin's Thunder should probably be no lower than A tier, mainly because Arcthunder is one of the best projectiles in the game. Imagine if ZSS's paralyzer stunned for twice as long and locked the opponent into shield when shielded. It's honestly a good thing Robin is so slow, any fast character with access to Arcthunder would be straight up busted.

Elthunder is also good for tech traps and edgeguarding. Thunder can be used to stun an opponent dashing at you, similar to a Falco laser (except way less committal). Thoron is hot garbage, but I guess if your opponent is out of checkmate range and you're incapable of either backthrowing at the ledge or landing a random stray aerial, then it does give another kill option.

 

[bc1910]

Robin's Thunder should probably be no lower than A tier, mainly because Arcthunder is one of the best projectiles in the game. Imagine if ZSS's paralyzer stunned for twice as long and locked the opponent into shield when shielded. It's honestly a good thing Robin is so slow, any fast character with access to Arcthunder would be straight up busted.

Elthunder is also good for tech traps and edgeguarding. Thunder can be used to stun an opponent dashing at you, similar to a Falco laser (except way less committal). Thoron is hot garbage, but I guess if your opponent is out of checkmate range and you're incapable of either backthrowing at the ledge or landing a random stray aerial, then it does give another kill option.

Concur.

Thunder is A-tier on Robin and would be S-tier on almost anyone else.

 

[JayZee1700]

A few N-Specials that are close competition to each other are .

- 's fireballs are very good in the air, especially in combination with a B-Reverse, making them easy to gimp with They also can lead directly into Mario's excellent grab combos.
- 's fireballs last for a shorter time than , but are stronger, bounce off walls and move in a straight path. Good for frame trapping, and some cool reverse ledge gimps off stage.
- 's pills have the same movement properties of and the same strength and wall bouncing as . They are very difficult to deal with if they are placed correctly, and since they move a little faster than 's fireballs, it doubles the pressure.

Overall, the fireballs and pills matchup like this:

>>

All of them probably belong in C tier, or maybe low B tier if we're being generous.

 

[Crystanium]

Robin's Thunder should probably be no lower than A tier, mainly because Arcthunder is one of the best projectiles in the game. Imagine if ZSS's paralyzer stunned for twice as long and locked the opponent into shield when shielded. It's honestly a good thing Robin is so slow, any fast character with access to Arcthunder would be straight up busted.

Elthunder is also good for tech traps and edgeguarding. Thunder can be used to stun an opponent dashing at you, similar to a Falco laser (except way less committal). Thoron is hot garbage, but I guess if your opponent is out of checkmate range and you're incapable of either backthrowing at the ledge or landing a random stray aerial, then it does give another kill option.

That seems counter-productive for Robin to be slow. I tend to find these thunder attacks easy to avoid. Arcfire is a bit of a problem because it lingers.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

That seems counter-productive for Robin to be slow. I tend to find these thunder attacks easy to avoid. Arcfire is a bit of a problem because it lingers.

I tend to either shield it or try to dodge-roll it myself. The character I use is pretty awful at jumping so I either get trapped in my shield by arcthunder or end up dodgerolling right into it. I could jump over it if I reacted in time but my reaction time tends to be a touch slow.

 

[G. Stache]

Luigi's fireballs...C tier? Hold on a sec, are we talking about the same projectile here? You know, the spammable projectile that provokes reactions, applies good midrange pressure, is used for covering your own recovery, creates frametraps, can still lead into grabs, and has a 44 FAF (while the fireball stays out for 64 frames). All the fireball nerfs did was knock this projectile down from S tier (back when it was completely braindead). A tier for sure.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Yeah, Luigi fireball is godlike. Probably A tier.