Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[|RK|]

Actually that's not true at all, if anything you put yourself at a disadvantage since you lose most of your attacks by trying to keep his fruit away from him. Not to mention you can't keep throwing & regrabbing his fruit, plus Pacman (for whatever reason) can pull out another fruit even if Villager pockets it.

I know. That's why I made a special mention of Marth. Corrin too, actually.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I know. That's why I made a special mention of Marth. Corrin too, actually.

Yeah, but that would mean Pac doesn't fall apart if you steal his fruit.

Honestly, no character with a summon-able item really falls apart if the opponent steals it since they have other options to cover themselves.

 

[|RK|]

Yeah, but that would mean Pac doesn't fall apart if you steal his fruit.

Honestly, no character with a summon-able item really falls apart if the opponent steals it since they have other options to cover themselves.

Pac-Man's options without fruit aren't great, though. Mega Man is still good - or even better - if you steal his metal blade, Diddy has a very good banana-less style, and ROB still has powerful grab confirms and another projectile. Pac Man has the least options of all of these, especially since he doesn't really have a grab. And with no fruit, he has no shield break setups either. So if you had a percent lead and you're looking for a good way to stall out the clock, you can just steal his fruit and camp shield. And if you're Corrin or Marth, you can still mount a decent offense with your specials alone.

 

[ARGHETH]

Pac-Man's options without fruit aren't great, though. Mega Man is still good - or even better - if you steal his metal blade, Diddy has a very good banana-less style, and ROB still has powerful grab confirms and another projectile. Pac Man has the least options of all of these, especially since he doesn't really have a grab. And with no fruit, he has no shield break setups either. So if you had a percent lead and you're looking for a good way to stall out the clock, you can just steal his fruit and camp shield. And if you're Corrin or Marth, you can still mount a decent offense with your specials alone.

Heck, Cosmos won an entire match using Side B alone.
EDIT: against Pacman, funnily enough.

 

[Nah]

Heck, Cosmos won an entire match using Side B alone.
EDIT: against Pacman, funnily enough.

do you have the link to the vid i need to see this lol

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Pac-Man's options without fruit aren't great, though. Mega Man is still good - or even better - if you steal his metal blade, Diddy has a very good banana-less style, and ROB still has powerful grab confirms and another projectile. Pac Man has the least options of all of these, especially since he doesn't really have a grab. And with no fruit, he has no shield break setups either. So if you had a percent lead and you're looking for a good way to stall out the clock, you can just steal his fruit and camp shield. And if you're Corrin or Marth, you can still mount a decent offense with your specials alone.

So for your example to be viable: The clock would have to be under a minute, you would have to be consistently running/jumping/shielding away to the edge or platforms (Giving up stage positioning & assuming you're not at kill percent) while Pacman is pressuring you with is his N-air, F-air, U-air, B-air, Side-B, Trampoline & Hydrant setups (& that's not even assuming Pac tries mixing up with a grab) & you can only use your specials to punish/fight back (if you're not playing as a character with offense specials) all just to keep his fruit away from him.

That is an incredibility situational strategy being very high risk of losing both your attacks & grab for medium reward of Pac losing one of his strongest options. (Not to mention it's pretty boring for both players)
It's honestly just better to drop the fruit & play the game.

 

[TDK]

do you have the link to the vid i need to see this lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UlNV4H8iFo

Irrelevant for a few weeks until we get to Side Special, but Corrin's side-special is the best one in the game. No contest. It's a full tier above every other side-B.

 

[Vyrnx]

Zapp Branniglenn
The pocket ability itself is pretty good, but like Gheb said, it's one of the best moves for getting out of juggle situations.

If only CS could be charged in the air... Between down b and neutral b momentum shifting, Samus would be totally fine at landing.

 

[Nah]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UlNV4H8iFo

Irrelevant for a few weeks until we get to Side Special, but Corrin's side-special is the best one in the game. No contest. It's a full tier above every other side-B.

lmao he really did do nothing besides side-B

also just saying, but at the very least side-B is S tier too

 

[|RK|]

So for your example to be viable: The clock would have to be under a minute, you would have to be consistently running/jumping/shielding away to the edge or platforms (Giving up stage positioning & assuming you're not at kill percent) while Pacman is pressuring you with is his N-air, F-air, U-air, B-air, Side-B, Trampoline & Hydrant setups (& that's not even assuming Pac tries mixing up with a grab) & you can only use your specials to punish/fight back (if you're not playing as a character with offense specials) all just to keep his fruit away from him.

That is an incredibility situational strategy being very high risk of losing both your attacks & grab for medium reward of Pac losing one of his strongest options. (Not to mention it's pretty boring for both players)
It's honestly just better to drop the fruit & play the game.

Not really. Of all the moves you mentioned, the only one that creates real pressure is hydrant. And even that can be managed by many specials.

Pac-Man really doesn't have a lot without his fruit. You could probably do this strategy with 2 or more minutes with a stock lead. It's boring, sure. But no one ever said the game will always be fun. And God help you if you're on Duck Hunt or something.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Regarding bonus fruit, it's so easy to grab. Several of the fruit travel slowly enough that you can grab it like any item off the ground with easy timing. But if you just block, jump out of shield and Z- grab/aerial, it's yours. All but the key are extremely easy and safe to grab in this way. And not all player generated items are this easy/viable to grab. Link's bombs detonate after a time, limiting your own usage. Mega Man's metal blade has a frame 6 rehit rate, making it frame perfect to impossible to grab out of shield, ROB's gyro disappears after being blocked, letting him fire again.

Part of the design with all of Pac Man's specials is that they can be used against him. If you could grab Samus' charge shot out of the air and throw it back, they would never use the move. Even worse if the charge shot had a limit of one during play at a time.

Zapp Branniglenn
The pocket ability itself is pretty good, but like Gheb said, it's one of the best moves for getting out of juggle situations.

I'd be a little perplexed at seeing a villager use Pocket for that. Invulnerability starts later than all his dodge options, in addition to having more endlag than all of them. Villager's air dodge has 26 I-frames and 7 frames of vulnerability (the first two and last 5) within the full animation. Pocket has 19 I-frames and 31 vulnerable frames (the first four and last 27). Even if you landed and incurred air dodge landing lag, you're still safer acting sooner than with Pocket in a landing scenario. There is B-reversing, but B-reversing requires maxed air speed to be any better than an air dodge's normal air speed and control. Thus not viable for evading a combo string. And if somebody swings at you when you're invulnerable, their move may be quick enough to just try again. Not the case with air dodges, very few aerials last less time than a 30-35 air dodge, but much more for a 50 frame Pocket.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Regarding bonus fruit, it's so easy to grab. Several of the fruit travel slowly enough that you can grab it like any item off the ground with easy timing. But if you just block, jump out of shield and Z- grab/aerial, it's yours. All but the key are extremely easy and safe to grab in this way. And not all player generated items are this easy/viable to grab. Link's bombs detonate after a time, limiting your own usage. Mega Man's metal blade has a frame 6 rehit rate, making it frame perfect to impossible to grab out of shield, ROB's gyro disappears after being blocked, letting him fire again.

I think Marcina can just safely clank all of their Normals against Bonus Fruit without a problem (even the key). So they even have that option besides shielding it.

 

[Masonomace]

Not necessarily so, however, as I've already listed two options that make only one CS necessary.

You're actually correct with the info you provided, but I'm just givin' ya flack because you still can't break Shield Shulk's full shield with a Bomb or Super Missile + a full-power CS. If two full-power Charge Shots simultaneously hitting the shield can't break it, then a measly Bomb / Missile + CS can't either. Shield art's shield is 75 HP, so you do actually need two maximum Charge Shots & a third one, a bomb, or a missile to clean up the HP scraps.
--
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Also Zapp Branniglenn I forgot to mention this for the FE bunch, but the startup isn't that important for them. Charging it is supposed to be the focus, & it's the release of the attack that should be mentioned. So out of a charge regardless of the amount, it goes like this (maybe you knew this already):
: Frame 11 from charge release
: Frame 8 from charge release
: Frame 12 from charge release

 

[TheHypnotoad]

The more I read his posts, the more I'm convinced that Zapp Branniglenn doesn't actually play Smash 4, he just theorycrafts. Half the posts he makes are along the lines of "Oh, this move is bad because if you do [action] then the move is useless" despite the fact that there are these things called "mixups" that people do to mitigate these weaknesses. Bonus Fruit is easy to avoid? Yeah, that's why Pacman players won't just throw it immediately, they'll wait for an opponent to let their guard down. Roy's Flare Blade has no followups and can't kill? Yeah, but it barely has any endlag, so it's a very safe option especially when B-reversed. You're looking at these moves at the shallowest level possible. You're only looking at them from the game's perspective and ignoring the human aspect.

 

[Vyrnx]

Zapp Branniglenn Being able to reverse momentum and be invulnerable is clearly great for landing, and obviously I'm not saying to use it as a substitute for air dodge to get out of combos, I'm talking about using it as an invulnerable momentum shifter when falling.

If a character is getting juggled, then what they do in that situation depends on whether they have just gotten hit upwards or if they are falling. I'm not talking about using pocket right after getting hit upwards. It's the same way ZSS can down b after getting hit upwards, but it's better to just jump/air dodge and then down b farther down to the ground to avoid getting hit again. Villager can jump/air dodge after getting hit upwards, stall with side b, and then when actually falling lol-invuln-b-reverse through whatever move you try to use.

Moves like Falcon/ZSS uair can not be used twice to catch pocket vulnerability, because by the time he gets to those frames he is way out of there. Same with every other move. If he b reverses at about full hop height while falling, he can do an invulnerable momentum shift and incur very low lag because the FAF is almost up, as opposed to air dodging at the same height and incurring horrible landing lag. If Villager b reverses any higher up, he can easily land with no lag.

Other characters who like to force a double jump when juggling and then catch a landing with a projectile can't do that against Villager. Mostly because of pocket landings, but also because side b stalling makes it really difficult (which we'll get to when we discuss side b moves).

Pocket is definitely one of the best anti juggling moves. Off the top of my head, ZSS flip kick is better since it's a third jump with invulnerability, can be used as close to the ground as you want, and travels half the distance of FD (or whatever distance in between the user chooses). Past that, Pocket is really up there. It shouldn't be perplexing either when if you've seen a good Villager, you have seen them use this move. The move is even good for recovery mixups and ledge jump get up mixups (I.e. ledge jump and then b reversing onto the Smashville platform).

B reversing is the reason why other neutral b's like Sun Salutation and Peanut Popgun are good for landing, and also the way that these moves are used in tandem with other moves, just like Villager's pocket is. Being able to mixup between side b, b reverse neutral b, and down air is pretty great for the character.

 

[BSP]

Pac-Man's options without fruit aren't great, though. Mega Man is still good - or even better - if you steal his metal blade, Diddy has a very good banana-less style, and ROB still has powerful grab confirms and another projectile. Pac Man has the least options of all of these, especially since he doesn't really have a grab. And with no fruit, he has no shield break setups either. So if you had a percent lead and you're looking for a good way to stall out the clock, you can just steal his fruit and camp shield. And if you're Corrin or Marth, you can still mount a decent offense with your specials alone.

Pac-Man can be pretty screwed if the wrong opponent grabs his fruit with the lead, yes, but two things:

1. Fruit theft is 100% preventable, although bothersome to ensure. Pac-Man can always throw his item in a manner that the opponent can't catch, catch it himself, and then throw it to make it impossible to steal.

2. If you intend to camp shield hard, and lots of people do, a smart Pac-man is going to hit you with the trampoline over, over, and over. It's only 7%, but if you're not fighting back and intending to hold the fruit at all costs, just blocking is not the way to do so and win. If you have specials that still let you fight like duck hunt, marth, corrin, etc. That's better but Pac can still make it impossible to steal the fruit.

 

[Masonomace]

Also, not exactly a B-Reverse, but a pivoted B-Reverse art activation in action for a little reference:
https://gfycat.com/HoarseMelodicEmperorshrimp

Harder to perform, but with that speed art cycled to & activated, I could of either done a B-Reverse or stick with that pivoted B-R. And instantly dashing away in an art like Speed is just, way too good as a landing option. Used the frame 1-14 intangible window before landing too.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The more I read his posts, the more I'm convinced that Zapp Branniglenn doesn't actually play Smash 4, he just theorycrafts. Half the posts he makes are along the lines of "Oh, this move is bad because if you do [action] then the move is useless" despite the fact that there are these things called "mixups" that people do to mitigate these weaknesses. Bonus Fruit is easy to avoid? Yeah, that's why Pacman players won't just throw it immediately, they'll wait for an opponent to let their guard down. Roy's Flare Blade has no followups and can't kill? Yeah, but it barely has any endlag, so it's a very safe option especially when B-reversed. You're looking at these moves at the shallowest level possible. You're only looking at them from the game's perspective and ignoring the human aspect.

I mean, random animosity aside, I see what you mean. Bringing up a move and only hearing about what's wrong with it can feel like talking to a wall. But that's often what this whole thread can feel like in reverse. Makes me wonder if people are aware of a move's weaknesses, and this is a thread where we're trying to rank them accurately against each other. Smash 4 players just get so mad when you acknowledge something wrong with their character, that I often do wonder what the point is taking the game's perspective on each issue - people don't want to hear something that doesn't confirm what they feel. But I'm not okay with valuing human aspect over facts. A kinesiologist can explain how athletes do what they do, and the athlete can show you. Doesn't make the first guy any less qualified to talk about it.

 

[Mr. Johan]

The only characters that I can think of that can manage themselves while holding Pac-Man's Fruit (This does not mean they wouldn't be lacking without their A-moves) are Robin (Thoron camping), Pikachu (QA evasion), Corrin (Pinning), Marcina and Roy (Side B comboers), Duck Hunt, and the other characters with chargable specials.

Of those, only the first three can continue that plan without worry of Hydrant and Trampoline serving as blocks.

Grabbing the Fruit's fine, but you have to be prepared to finagle with it if Pac's got the lead.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I mean, random animosity aside, I see what you mean. Bringing up a move and only hearing about what's wrong with it can feel like talking to a wall. But that's often what this whole thread can feel like in reverse. Makes me wonder if people are aware of a move's weaknesses, and this is a thread where we're trying to rank them accurately against each other. Smash 4 players just get so mad when you acknowledge something wrong with their character, that I often do wonder what the point is taking the game's perspective on each issue - people don't want to hear something that doesn't confirm what they feel. But I'm not okay with valuing human aspect over facts. A kinesiologist can explain how athletes do what they do, and the athlete can show you. Doesn't make the first guy any less qualified to talk about it.

I agree with you there, i'm super touchy about my zard being a character loyalist even though I know he's low to mid-tier I still get slightly annoyed when someone bashes and or underestimates him. I also see that people rate their characters moves a lot more highly if they main them. Though that also means they typically know more about them/have studied them more. Though this is now slowing the discussion, can we get back on topic?

 

[Routa]

The only characters that I can think of that can manage themselves while holding Pac-Man's Fruit (This does not mean they wouldn't be lacking without their A-moves) are Robin (Thoron camping), Pikachu (QA evasion), Corrin (Pinning), Marcina and Roy (Side B comboers), Duck Hunt, and the other characters with chargable specials.

Of those, only the first three can continue that plan without worry of Hydrant and Trampoline serving as blocks.

Grabbing the Fruit's fine, but you have to be prepared to finagle with it if Pac's got the lead.

Also Gunner.

Anyways the Fruit is good, but it is fairly easy to catch (SH AD works really well) when used just like ROB's Gyro. But just like others have said that outside of the Fruit Pac-Man is heavily flawed unlike other projectile heavy characters. What I'm trying to say is that Fruit is the thing which keeps Pac-Man out of the trash can. Fruit is good. Pac-Man is not.

 

[Crystanium]

You're actually correct with the info you provided, but I'm just givin' ya flack because you still can't break Shield Shulk's full shield with a Bomb or Super Missile + a full-power CS. If two full-power Charge Shots simultaneously hitting the shield can't break it, then a measly Bomb / Missile + CS can't either. Shield art's shield is 75 HP, so you do actually need two maximum Charge Shots & a third one, a bomb, or a missile to clean up the HP scraps.

Shulk isn't common enough for me to concern myself with him. These methods still work on 99.98% of the roster.

 

[meticulousboy]

I'm not saying Toad is the best counterattack in the game, but it does have its advantages.

For one, it has the highest KBG (on the final hit) of any counter in this game. A KBG of 300 is nothing to sleep on.

For another, it is used for edge guarding opponents with a hitbox on their recovery, like Spin Attack from Link or Toon Link, and Aether from Ike. Anyone with a terrible horizontal recovery is doomed if they are hit by Toad off stage.

Because Peach is the only character to have a counter as a Neutral B instead of a Down B, she doesn't have to worry about accidentally inputting a fast fall off stage when edge guarding.

Heck. Toad can even do a lot of shield damage should an item hit Peach near a shielding opponent. After all, 18% damage when all nine hits connect.

Too bad it's tied with Palutena's Counter for having the slowest startup of frame 10.

I am not calling it the best Neutral Special, but it may be C material.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I'm not saying Toad is the best counterattack in the game, but it does have its advantages.

What frustrates me the most about Toad is simply how inconsistent it is - the amount of times where you'll successfully use it, only for the opponent to end up only taking 3-6% damage and hardly any knockback is beyond disheartening.

On a side note, the high knockback growth in and of itself doesn't mean too much; it has to be that high in order for the last hit to deal enough knockback to be a viable kill option.


As for some other neutral Bs...

Her scariest move by far. The sheer damage and kill potential, combined with its speed, forces your opponent to play so much more carefully against you if you have a full Charge Shot stored (which, depending on the matchup, may not be too difficult to obtain) Seriously, this move alone keeps her out of bottom tier - one of the top 10 neutral Bs in the game.

Super matchup dependent; this ranges from borderline useless to incredibly annoying, all based on who she's facing... so I guess we can average that out as being an 'okay' move overall.

It's... average. Its use as a reflector is... mixed, but its generous intangibility frames nevertheless make it a decent pseudo-counter. It also has limited use as a ledge get-up option, as it will immediately cancel her jumping momentum; highly punishable if predicted, but useful as a surprise tactic.

All the meaningful discussion that could have been had about this move has already been had, but just to reconfirm that Rollout is utter garbage and makes Falcon Punch look like Sheik's Needles.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Since several people have already addressed the main elephant in the room (Pac Man's Bonus Fruit in C tier), I will address the issue of Gunner's charge blast in C tier. The move has the best frame data of all of the chargeable and storable projectiles (It comes out on frame 16, and it only has 23 frames of endlag), and the uncharged shots can jab lock until kill percents. In addition, Gunner can confirm into charge blast from flame pillar or set up into it from a fair. It is also a great move for punishing missed techs and landings. While it has been known for being weaker than Samus's charge shot, it is still a strong punish that can kill around 100-120% from a confirm. It is also a little bit stronger than Wii Fit Trainer's sun salutation.

In conclusion, Gunner's charge blast should be no worse than B tier. The move has the low endlag and the ability to force approaches that is very important to Gunner's neutral. With all due respect and no offense intended, the notion that Gunner's charge blast is worse than Ryu's Hadouken or Bayonetta's Bullet Climax is utterly asinine to me.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

While we're on that topic, can we discuss why Hadouken is so high on the list? It really has never seemed that good to me. All the variations come out early, and there is quite a bit of variety, but they move super slow, they don't do much damage (except for Shakunetsu Hadouken at point blank range), their FAF is poor, and they're pretty easy to trump with other, meatier projectiles. Oh, and they can be crouched under by some of the cast. I don't know too much about the move, but looking at it seems like it's that high up because of how variable it is. Issue is, its variability doesn't actually help it much because they're still all... meh. I wouldn't say it needs to go too far down, but putting it in C tier seems like a better fit.

Also, is it just me, or does Wario's Chomp look a little too high as well? Command grabs are cool and all, as is healing from projectiles and helping to charge Wario Waft, but avoiding Chomp is as easy as throwing out a hitbox, which is also how you deal with all of Wario's aerials (and in the air is the only way to approach with Chomp as far as I know). Also seems like a candidate for C tier.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Have I talked about why this one doesn't work? Homing attack is notably bad at homing in on moving targets. It's startup is 23-34 depending on mashing, plus travel time. It's always slow enough for a human to react with shield every day of the week. So changing the move's startup by a bit doesn't make a real mixup. You either hold shield when you see it coming or...continue to hold shield. By mashing to perform it earlier, it goes from 12% damage to 5%. When hitting a target, endlag is 31, more than enough to punish out of shield with an aerial, especially if you blocked the weaker variety. If you collide with a solid surface such as the ground or a wall, endlag is 39, but you'll be able to perform double jump and Up B afterward, so there's a slight recovery mixup niche under a stage. But it's a totally nonviable attack otherwise. D tier is appropriate.

For one, it has the highest KBG (on the final hit) of any counter in this game. A KBG of 300 is nothing to sleep on.

On a 2% launching hit. Knockback scaling depends on damage just as much as KBG. In practice, Peach's counter only keeps up with others or even exceeds them in knockback at high %s when countering low% attacks like jabs, multihit moves, etc. Fortunately, most recovery hitboxes fall in this category. So when you use Toad to edgeguard, you're getting results in line with Marth, sometimes even better. But for a direct comparison of a stronger move, countering Lucina's Fsmash from the default CPU position of Training Mode FD, Marth's counter will kill her about 40% sooner than Peach's. That's for a 15% damage move, and the differential continues to grow regarding even stronger moves.

There isn't anything exceptionally wrong with Toad, it just performs a bit differently. Counters get used most often as an edgeguarding tool, and Toad doesn't underperform for most of those scenarios. Its tier placement should reflect that, as D tier is still a collection of moves with critical flaws, even after you boot Falcon and maybe Ness or Ganon down.

I will address the issue of Gunner's charge blast in C tier. The move has the best frame data of all of the chargeable and storable projectiles (It comes out on frame 16, and it only has 23 frames of endlag), and the uncharged shots can jab lock until kill percents. In addition, Gunner can confirm into charge blast from flame pillar or set up into it from a fair. It is also a great move for punishing missed techs and landings.

Sorry, but much of that is false. Flame pillar doesn't have combos on its own, and Charge Blast's startup is 15 and endlag is 36 (I counted it, Kurogane could not find correct numbers). Furthermore, Charge blast takes even longer to reach full than Samus (144 to Samus' 136, making it the longest unless you count Donkey Kong's Giant Punch at 154). Factor in the lesser damage, knockback, and hitbox size, and it's a straight downgrade from Charge Shot. Gunner's non-combo, zoning moveset does it no favors for setups either.

That all having been said, B tier is sensible, since it sounds like Samus is moving to A, and a lot of C tier just isn't as good as this move. Default Gunner relies on this move a lot, and it even stands up to the other viable neutral B in a customs setting.

Also, is it just me, or does Wario's Chomp look a little too high as well? Command grabs are cool and all, as is healing from projectiles and helping to charge Wario Waft, but avoiding Chomp is as easy as throwing out a hitbox, which is also how you deal with all of Wario's aerials (and in the air is the only way to approach with Chomp as far as I know). Also seems like a candidate for C tier.

Throwing out any hitbox won't cut it. Wario's enlarged head is completely invulnerable. Throw an attack at it, and you'll get chomped, even from several steps away. You need a move that's disjointed and properly spaced to beat him, or a sword swing. And the constant hitbox makes this a great move to cover ledge options, beating everything except ledge roll, which has enough endlag that wario can close his mouth and attempt to grab them. And that intangible head makes letting go of the ledge and jumping up with an attack often fail depending on what your character has to use from that position. It's a great move even before you look at eating opposing projectiles and your bike. The normal startup is frame 8, but he can eat items on 2, that's faster than most reflectors.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Have I talked about why this one doesn't work? Homing attack is notably bad at homing in on moving targets. It's startup is 23-34 depending on mashing, plus travel time. It's always slow enough for a human to react with shield every day of the week. So changing the move's startup by a bit doesn't make a real mixup. You either hold shield when you see it coming or...continue to hold shield. By mashing to perform it earlier, it goes from 12% damage to 5%. When hitting a target, endlag is 31, more than enough to punish out of shield with an aerial, especially if you blocked the weaker variety. If you collide with a solid surface such as the ground or a wall, endlag is 39, but you'll be able to perform double jump and Up B afterward, so there's a slight recovery mixup niche under a stage. But it's a totally nonviable attack otherwise. D tier is appropriate.



On a 2% launching hit. Knockback scaling depends on damage just as much as KBG. In practice, Peach's counter only keeps up with others or even exceeds them in knockback at high %s when countering low% attacks like jabs, multihit moves, etc. Fortunately, most recovery hitboxes fall in this category. So when you use Toad to edgeguard, you're getting results in line with Marth, sometimes even better. But for a direct comparison of a stronger move, countering Lucina's Fsmash from the default CPU position of Training Mode FD, Marth's counter will kill her about 40% sooner than Peach's. That's for a 15% damage move, and the differential continues to grow regarding even stronger moves.

There isn't anything exceptionally wrong with Toad, it just performs a bit differently. Counters get used most often as an edgeguarding tool, and Toad doesn't underperform for most of those scenarios. Its tier placement should reflect that, as D tier is still a collection of moves with critical flaws, even after you boot Falcon and maybe Ness or Ganon down.



Sorry, but much of that is false. Flame pillar doesn't have combos on its own, and Charge Blast's startup is 15 and endlag is 36 (I counted it, Kurogane could not find correct numbers). Furthermore, Charge blast takes even longer to reach full than Samus (144 to Samus' 136, making it the longest unless you count Donkey Kong's Giant Punch at 154). Factor in the lesser damage, knockback, and hitbox size, and it's a straight downgrade from Charge Shot. Gunner's non-combo, zoning moveset does it no favors for setups either.

That all having been said, B tier is sensible, since it sounds like Samus is moving to A, and a lot of C tier just isn't as good as this move. Default Gunner relies on this move a lot, and it even stands up to the other viable neutral B in a customs setting.



Throwing out any hitbox won't cut it. Wario's enlarged head is completely invulnerable. Throw an attack at it, and you'll get chomped, even from several steps away. You need a move that's disjointed and properly spaced to beat him, or a sword swing. And the constant hitbox makes this a great move to cover ledge options, beating everything except ledge roll, which has enough endlag that wario can close his mouth and attempt to grab them. And that intangible head makes letting go of the ledge and jumping up with an attack often fail depending on what your character has to use from that position. It's a great move even before you look at eating opposing projectiles and your bike. The normal startup is frame 8, but he can eat items on 2, that's faster than most reflectors.

Oh. I probably shouldn't have quoted Kuroganehammer's numbers since he put a question mark by that one. By the way, did you get that number before or after the patch that reduced the endlag on charge blast? I should also clarify that it is the weak hit of flame pillar that confirms into charge blast. At the very least, I have gotten the weak hit of flame pillar to confirm into charge blast on the combo counter. Fair to charge blast isn't a true combo, but it is a setup that is safe for Gunner and difficult to avoid.

 

[ARGHETH]

Oh. I probably shouldn't have quoted Kuroganehammer's numbers since he put a question mark by that one. By the way, did you get that number before or after the patch that reduced the endlag on charge blast? I should also clarify that it is the weak hit of flame pillar that confirms into charge blast. At the very least, I have gotten the weak hit of flame pillar to confirm into charge blast on the combo counter. Fair to charge blast isn't a true combo, but it is a setup that is safe for Gunner and difficult to avoid.

I think that's post-patch, since it sounds like he counted the frames of endlag himself and the wiki puts post-patch CB's endlag as 39.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Oh. I probably shouldn't have quoted Kuroganehammer's numbers since he put a question mark by that one. By the way, did you get that number before or after the patch that reduced the endlag on charge blast?

Definitely after, since that patch was 1.10, and I didn't do Gunner's chart until sometime after 1.13. Not sure where the 39 endlag comes from. Smash wiki just copies our patch notes from smashboards, and there weren't a lot of people here working to confirm accurate numbers at that time. It does explain the 23 endlag error if Kurogane interpreted it as total frames. I find it unlikely the move was buffed a second time after 1.10, since that would have had to get past our spot checker, me.

 

[Masonomace]

Have I talked about why this one doesn't work? Homing attack is notably bad at homing in on moving targets. It's startup is 23-34 depending on mashing, plus travel time. It's always slow enough for a human to react with shield every day of the week. So changing the move's startup by a bit doesn't make a real mixup. You either hold shield when you see it coming or...continue to hold shield. By mashing to perform it earlier, it goes from 12% damage to 5%. When hitting a target, endlag is 31, more than enough to punish out of shield with an aerial, especially if you blocked the weaker variety. If you collide with a solid surface such as the ground or a wall, endlag is 39, but you'll be able to perform double jump and Up B afterward, so there's a slight recovery mixup niche under a stage. But it's a totally nonviable attack otherwise. D tier is appropriate.

This probably sounds obvious, but HA also cannot home-in on a move with intangibility frames (silly I know, but just watch the gif).
Example here: https://gfycat.com/IlliterateFearlessAvocet

This example comes off as luck, but after realizing & labbing the actual fact that intangibility prevents HA from targeting you, that would mean I had to of input my Vision within a 2-frame moment SOMEWHERE in the Homing Attack channeling before firing. And I have no idea when either. Other than that, yeah.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Ok so now that we've discussed all that's wrong with some moves that we feel are not on the proper tier (and since discussion has since stopped since yesterday) can we talk about and ? I think they're a tier low due to the shield pressure and edge guarding (while yes having a massive weakness in an opponent getting behind you). Can we move them up a rank? Yay or nay? I think their neutral special has too much utility to be that low tbh.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Bowsers neutral b is worse than Charizards. Less range, doesn't cause hitstun until up close, and correct me if I'm wrong but it has a lower damage output

Charizards has uses as a good b reverse, great spacing tool, one of the most consistent ways to catch 2frames, covering ledge options, and forcing people to recover above the ledge. I don't know where it belongs on the tier list exactly but its at least a tier better than bowsers

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

can we talk about and ? I think they're a tier low due to the shield pressure and edge guarding (while yes having a massive weakness in an opponent getting behind you). Can we move them up a rank? Yay or nay? I think their neutral special has too much utility to be that low tbh.

Okay, after ironing out the misconceptions about the moves and deciding they deserve the same tier a few pages back we can move on to...

Bowsers neutral b is worse than Charizards. Less range, doesn't cause hitstun until up close, and correct me if I'm wrong but it has a lower damage output

Charizards has uses as a good b reverse, great spacing tool, one of the most consistent ways to catch 2frames, covering ledge options, and forcing people to recover above the ledge. I don't know where it belongs on the tier list exactly but its at least a tier better than bowsers

Exact same range, Bowser's deals no hitstun at the tip of its range when used along the ground, or later half of the range when spewed into the air, and the damage output is slightly different (2.0/1.0 | 1.8/1.2). For use onstage, damage output can often favor Bowser as his move maintains the 1.8 hitbox if it travels along the ground while charizards reaches a 1.0 at the midpoint of its range (which recedes as you use it). But the ultimate result would be an added 1% or so before they escape the flames. Both moves will menace people recovering for free damage, consistently catching 2 frame ledge snaps and taking full advantage of Bowser Jr's flawed Up B. And the one you'd want for edgeguarding is based on personal preference. With charizards, you annoy them more with all the flinching they need to do before grabbing the ledge, and they will grab that ledge since you keep refreshing their Up B. While with Bowser, you can make them think flames always refresh their up B as it's turning into more of a windbox that pushes them away from the ledge, which can gimp them if they're not careful. In terms of matchups, you want Charizards against Dedede as an easy Gordo Reflector, and Bowser's for Ness/Lucas. Should those two use their up B too close to a ledge, the damaging windbox will push their body into a postiion where the PK Thunder can't reach them, an instant kill, but requires them to be careless. Another possible result is the PK Thunder disappearing in the flames, without making Ness/Lucas flinch, since you don't need a move with knockback to make projectiles disappear, just enough damage.

The most tangible difference between the two moves is Charizard's with three less startup and 4 less endlag. That's notable, but not a tier's worth of difference. Charizard uses his move far more than Bowser because his moveset demands its applications more. Bowser on the other hand has other answers for catching 2 frame ledge snaps, and covering ledge options with a single move. Using Fire Breath is safer and easy, but less rewarding than Ftilt and Fortress respectively.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Just to be clear I've never hit a character using their ledge snap with flamethrower even if I use it continuously near the ledge in online mode (a ledgesnap is 1/30th of a second, a lot of moves punch through flamethrower and fire breath and grab the ledge for free due to speed though as you said excellent move for gimping jr's lousy recovery I also use it for a move I call 'set-up and smash' where I trick an opponent into overshooting the ledge and then use a smash attack for an easy take down). Though that doesn't answer the question of what tier it belongs in...

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Actually that's not true at all, if anything you put yourself at a disadvantage since you lose most of your attacks by trying to keep his fruit away from him. Not to mention you can't keep throwing & regrabbing his fruit, plus Pacman (for whatever reason) can pull out another fruit even if Villager pockets it.

I should have replied to this a long time ago, but stealing Pac Man's fruit leaves you access not just to special moves, but also aerials with proper z-drop->aerial regrab timings. Yeah, yeah, you have to learn item play, but it's something pac-mains themselves have been doing for a long time. That leaves most characters short of, like, Little mac with plenty enough options to outplay Pac Man without ever relinquishing control of the fruit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

While we're on that topic, can we discuss why Hadouken is so high on the list? It really has never seemed that good to me. All the variations come out early, and there is quite a bit of variety, but they move super slow, they don't do much damage (except for Shakunetsu Hadouken at point blank range), their FAF is poor, and they're pretty easy to trump with other, meatier projectiles. Oh, and they can be crouched under by some of the cast. I don't know too much about the move, but looking at it seems like it's that high up because of how variable it is. Issue is, its variability doesn't actually help it much because they're still all... meh. I wouldn't say it needs to go too far down, but putting it in C tier seems like a better fit.

Also, is it just me, or does Wario's Chomp look a little too high as well? Command grabs are cool and all, as is healing from projectiles and helping to charge Wario Waft, but avoiding Chomp is as easy as throwing out a hitbox, which is also how you deal with all of Wario's aerials (and in the air is the only way to approach with Chomp as far as I know). Also seems like a candidate for C tier.

Hadouken is not good.

So....yea

 

[Funbot28]

Ok will have update to list up for tomorrow, so leave any other last opinions.

 

[QualityQ]

Pac-Man's options without fruit aren't great, though. Mega Man is still good - or even better - if you steal his metal blade, Diddy has a very good banana-less style, and ROB still has powerful grab confirms and another projectile. Pac Man has the least options of all of these, especially since he doesn't really have a grab. And with no fruit, he has no shield break setups either. So if you had a percent lead and you're looking for a good way to stall out the clock, you can just steal his fruit and camp shield. And if you're Corrin or Marth, you can still mount a decent offense with your specials alone.

While this is all true, no one's arguing that Pac is a better character than MM, Diddy, or ROB. Yes, other characters have lots of options other than their neutral-B's. But that's not a fair comparison, and just because Pac is not the best character doesn't mean Bonus Fruit is not a good move.

A better comparison is imagining a Diddy Kong with Bonus Fruit instead of Popgun. Or ROB with it. Heck, even MM would likely take bonus fruit over metal blade just because there's so much more you can do with it.

In whole the "but it can be stolen" argument for Bonus Fruit amounts to "Pac-Man has a bunch of weaknesses." Agreed, Pac is not top tier. But Bonus Fruit is a move many other characters would love to have, and in terms of neutral specials it's top tier.

 

[|RK|]

While this is all true, no one's arguing that Pac is a better character than MM, Diddy, or ROB. Yes, other characters have lots of options other than their neutral-B's. But that's not a fair comparison, and just because Pac is not the best character doesn't mean Bonus Fruit is not a good move.

A better comparison is imagining a Diddy Kong with Bonus Fruit instead of Popgun. Or ROB with it. Heck, even MM would likely take bonus fruit over metal blade just because there's so much more you can do with it.

In whole the "but it can be stolen" argument for Bonus Fruit amounts to "Pac-Man has a bunch of weaknesses." Agreed, Pac is not top tier. But Bonus Fruit is a move many other characters would love to have, and in terms of neutral specials it's top tier.

That's a good point - I was thinking of the character more than the special. Diddy would wreck people if they tried to steal his fruit lol.