Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[FamilyTeam]

Are the clone characters ranked, or is one better than the other?
If it's ranked, I see no reason why Pit is better than Dark Pit. DPit's KOs you off of a roll read at 100%, Pit's never gets that close.
Also, it's hard to rate either Marth or Lucie's DB as better really. I personally prefer Lucie's.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Are the clone characters ranked, or is one better than the other?
If it's ranked, I see no reason why Pit is better than Dark Pit. DPit's KOs you off of a roll read at 100%, Pit's never gets that close.
Also, it's hard to rate either Marth or Lucie's DB as better really. I personally prefer Lucie's.

Dark Pit's may be stronger than Pit's but Pit's is faster and has less end lag at the tail end of the move. That means it's a lot easier to react to Dark Pit's side b than Pit's.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Are the clone characters ranked, or is one better than the other?

They are not ranked within the tiers, so only the tier matters. Dark Pit might be #1 in B and Pit might be last in B for all we know (though they're probably closer than that).

 

[FamilyTeam]

Dark Pit's may be stronger than Pit's but Pit's is faster and has less end lag at the tail end of the move. That means it's a lot easier to react to Dark Pit's side b than Pit's.

What.
I hope it was someone uninformed that told you this rather than you making it up yourself.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I would move Wario and Bowser Jr a tier up from where they are now. Or move them both into the same A tier. They're great moves for recovery, grant heavy armor to blast through small attacks, have the same ability as Sonic to create a new hitbox for added shield pressure when blocked (wario turns around or pops a wheelie, while B Jr can spinout). They do not have Sonic's ability to cancel into shield on startup. Wario can eat his bike or use it as a projectile or hitbox extender (so can his opponent) as well as eat it for a small waft charge and 1% heal. Bowser Jr is a more direct alternative to Sonic as both start nasty combos and are safe on block, while Sonic would kill to have armor on his spin dash the shield cancel is amazing for safety and Jr's spinout is far less of a good move than Sonic's spin dash jump which generates a hitbox on frame 2 and has only 14 frames of lag. Jr depends upon getting the initial hit to start combos, as his jump does not generate a new hitbox.

I also second the idea of moving D into F as we split current C into a new C and D tiers. Zelda's is just not that much worse than other moves. After these mass movements, Falcon and Brawler would move into new F, if not new D. While I'd personally move Palutena into the new D. Palutena's reflect barrier lasts long enough that she can act before it disappears. Allowing her to re-establish it perpetually and never worry about being inputting reflect too early. Not all reflectors can do this, just Fox, Gunner, and Palutena. The unblockable melee hit on the move and barrier's windbox aren't ground breaking and are just a minor bells and whistles. But among reflectors, I'd consider taking hers for sure. I would also move Dedede into new D or even new C. There are safe and sensible applications for gordos, and the combo potential and damage on hit is absolutely massive. Jigglypuff would also get into new D, as while there isn't much right with the move, there isn't much wrong with it either. Not a critical attack for her moveset, but not as inapplicable to serious competitive play as Yoshi.

I also think Ganon and Bowser should move into B at the least. Ganon's Flame Choke is an amazing move in which you can plan out any of the opponent's options, then choose which move to used based on risk vs reward. Also clinching an instant victory when you have a stock lead is debatably B tier worthy on its own. Bowser's move does not favor him for suicides all or even most of the time, but he does have an advantage in control of the move. About half of Bowser's character-specific tech involves Side B in some way. One highlight being a better version of this where you can throw out the grab hitbox and still land with just hard landing lag. I'm pretty sure Bowser possesses the only special in the game with no landing lag state after they removed that feature from Fox/Falco blasters after Brawl. Also, the ground hitbox has about 95% of his jab 1's range. Put another way, this frame 8 command grab that kills has more reach than entire movesets from Mario, Luigi, Fox, Metaknight, etc. Before Bowser got a combo throw, this move was his grab game, and it still maintains use as a good means of taking a stock or otherwise dealing 18% damage. Most characters would kill to have it.

Dark Pit's may be stronger than Pit's but Pit's is faster and has less end lag at the tail end of the move. That means it's a lot easier to react to Dark Pit's side b than Pit's.

There are no frame data differences between the two moves.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Spoiler: Side-Special

Ok here is the initial list for Side-Special. There was a lot of discrepancies between some characters in the ranks so I expect a lot of discussion to come, following some changes.

Of the characters I play, all but one of them look like the right spot to me. That one, of course, being / Header. I already wrote up one wall of text explaining why I think it does peek into A tier, but it should be in B at a bare minimum. To avoid just re-writing my post from before, I'll summarize.

Things Header can do:
- Throw an 8%-10% projectile in virtually any direction (which never stales)
- Start combos
- End combos with an extra 23%-28% hit
- One of the stronger meteor smashes in the game, can be comboed into
- Jab lock at low percents on platforms
- Edgeguard
- Ledgeguard
- Block projectiles
- Extend hitboxes on other moves
- Frame traps
- Unstale / intentionally stale any move
- Safe anti-edgeguard

 

[Egghead]

Of the characters I play, all but one of them look like the right spot to me. That one, of course, being / Header. I already wrote up one wall of text explaining why I think it does peek into A tier, but it should be in B at a bare minimum. To avoid just re-writing my post from before, I'll summarize.

Things Header can do:
- Throw an 8%-10% projectile in virtually any direction (which never stales)
- Start combos
- End combos with an extra 23%-28% hit
- One of the stronger meteor smashes in the game, can be comboed into (maybe top 5? Currently fact checking)
- Jab lock at low percents on platforms
- Edgeguard
- Ledgeguard
- Block projectiles
- Extend hitboxes on other moves
- Frame traps
- Unstale / intentionally stale any move

I agree.

Wii fit trainer can act as loid rocket if you jab it with the shoulder and villager bowling ball if you dair it. It can also ruin edgeguards by flinging it onstage. Also, when Wii fit grans the ledge and an opponent innocently shields, side b can break shields! Finally, it allows for platform shenanigans and can jab lock shown by @SInogara if you hit with the back of the head.

 

[HoSmash4]

Pikachu side b actually deserves to be extremely low. Only use over quick attack is to recover if for some reason you are in the side blastzones without a double jump. Side b in general just is really weak, only time pikachu recovery is really exploitable, rarely any situations where quick attack is worse.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Just saw the tier lists, not sure if zard belongs in C but it can get a kill and punch through weak projectiles, the only issue I have with it is that it's way too easy to SD with it and unless you start the move on the ground you still sink with the move while still in midair making timing crucial not to mention all the punishment you'll eat if you hit even a reasonably healthy shield.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

iignore this! Wii U glitched up and double posted!

 

[Dig Dug]

I'm pretty sure Bowser possesses the only special in the game with no landing lag state after they removed that feature from Fox/Falco blasters after Brawl.

Olimar's neutral B also doesn't have any landing lag. It may not have a hitbox, but it still acts as a better alternative to a-landing.

 

[Masonomace]

I find myself agreeing with in A tier. The thing that gets me the most about this move is that the Lloyd Rocket itself generates on frame freaking 1. Add the fact that you need a move dealing at least around ~12% or more to destroy the projectile within the frame 1-52 window of the sequence, means that you run a risk of being hit by the explosion thus you wouldn't want to challenge this move unless you have some nice disjoints. Although, from frame 53 & onwards, you can challenge the rocket with any petty move & can clank with jabs if you wanted to. Villy acting fairly fast out of it, setting up for walling his slingshots as well as Lloyd Rocket hovering the ground, being godlike on Lylat Cruise, & the fact that Villager can also mash Side-B to cancel momentum off-stage to avoid dying, it wouldn't be a surprise for this move to be A-tier among the side specials in the game.

& which are very similar in design both warrant D tier I feel. Luigi's especially warrants D tier in this game for the fact that it clanks with anything petty including low-damage projectiles. Even a Misfire will clank which pisses me off but we all learn to accept it. . . Aside from this, there's at least some intangibility within Green Missile / Misfire almost near the startup of the move but it's not too helpful in my experiences of edge-guarding the plumber. Basically, these options do have recovery mix-up potential, but the only safe way to use them are the attempt of recovering either reaaaallly high, or reaaaally deep low. There's literally no in-between with them since their endlag is much too high to not be punished.

's Force Palm is funny because it's really bad at low percent, yet so freakishly dumb-good at higher percents in more than a couple of ways. You can't use FP in Smash 4 like you could with Brawl in the regard of inputting it as you land, but the move got more utility for the sacrifice of it's once-great cross-up ability on shield. Also, while it technically is possible to mash out of the grab sequence before the hitbox happens, you will rarely ever see this actually done. The best part about this move is that once Lucario reaches the ~100% damage meter while stocks are even-steven as an example, it starts to become a large aura blast that's hard to approach from a distance. And everyone obviously knows this move's command grab is ridiculous so no reason to boast that here. It's sorta hard yet simple to rate FP as a potential B-tier move for it's strong kill power & great aura range poke with high percent, but then at low percents with no stocks deficit the move is awful, worthy of D or F-tier. Ehh.

definitely does not belong in C-tier. B-tier at least for sure.

at D-tier feels. . .too low for Gordos. Those things are seriously a threatening wake-up call at the ledge & you don't want to be there hanging. Then again they're easy to knock-away but despite of that, the move feels at least C-tier at worst, B-tier more comfortably maybe?

 

[Vyrnx]

Swap Samus and Zero Suit and move Roy to A tier. Sheik's side b can totally be D tier too, it's a bad move.

 

[bc1910]

Shadow Sneak is pretty bad. It has some utility in recovery and escaping certain combos. It can work okay as a Hail Mary kill option, though it's not remotely safe outside of edgeguarding and the front hit's power is lacklustre. Besides this, it's slow, laggy, offers no invincibility and is easy to hard punish. C-tier.

Sheik's grenade should be C-tier too. Again it at least has some minor utility at the ledge, both with edgeguarding and Sheik's ledge return, compared to utterly useless moves like Yoshi's Side B.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I'd bump him up one mostly for its non reflector applications. The move is a command grab and while you don't have any true follow ups (that I know of) out of it, it puts your opponent in a situation where they gave two options jump or throw out a quick hitbox. If you lack those quick hitboxes and gotta jump. Mewtwo is quick enough to apply additional airborne pressure or he can sit back and begin charging shadow ball.

Another great use is recovery, Mewtwo gains a decent bit of horizontal momentum when used after jumping allowing him to get back to the stage easier while keeping a hitbox in front of him for protection. In addition you can B-reverse it and gain a nice additional mix-up for landing on stage

 

[Y2Kay]

Nah fam, shadow sneak is legit if you ask me. That back (which you should be aiming for at all times) hits as hard as forward smash and definitely a cool mixup off stage and for players who love to spot dodge or let go of shield early. It's end lag in the air is atrocious, and its end lag on the ground isn't too hot either, but the ability to escape dangerous multi hits like boost kick and witch twist is so useful, that I think it should still hang around the B Tier.

 

[meticulousboy]

Would Captain Falcon fall into the same tier as Peach? Granted, Raptor Boost is more punishable on shield than Peach Bomber because Peach Bomber bounces off shields. However, Peach has more reward when her Side B connects simply because hers does 10% fresh, which is 1% more than a fresh Raptor Boost.

Keep in mind that an aerial Peach Bomber has more endlag than the grounded version if it misses. If I'm not mistaken, it has less endlag than a Raptor Boost that misses.

All in all, I am only curious as to if Peach and Captain Falcon would truly fall in the same tier.

 

[BSP]

Very good:
Pretty good:
Alright / Situational:
Meh:
Useless:

Pac's pellet could make your "alright/situational" tier.

A stationary pellet sitting on the ground can shut some projectiles down, ie Luigi's fireballs, Charge Shot, Sun Salutation, Mega Man's buster shots if he doesn't jump, blade beams, etc.

An extension of that above point is that if your projectile pressure isn't fast enough, it becomes pointless to pressure Pac-Man with them because he can heal himself off of your attempts.

As an attack it is the definition of "meh", but it has its quirks otherwise.

 

[TheRabidChipmunk]

So I'm not an expert, but no one seems to be stepping up to discuss gordos so I thought I'd step up to the plate.

Gordos are potentially B-tier, at least C-tier, but not D-tier. They're too useful for that.

First, the cons of Gordo, which are well documented at this point but for the sake of discussion warrant repeating:
-Easily reflected. This is problematic if Dedede is too close to reflect them back, but reflecting them back is a big part of Dedede's more advanced gameplay, so it's a mixed bag.
-Terribad endlag. Pressing side-b is a 64 frame commitment, and if the opponent hits you out of the animation before you can launch the Gordo (frame 29), then Dedede is unable to interact with it (but his opponents still can because Sakurai hates you). Dedede needs to be on the opposite side of the stage from his opponent to have enough time to reflect gordos back.
-Janky and inconsistent. Sometimes gordos will bounce off you twice for reasons I don't fully grasp. Sticking them to walls is incredibly powerful, but they only do it half of the time because no, really, Sakurai hates you.

With that in mind, though, gordos are still hugely useful.
-Long lasting hitbox with high damage. Let's not forget this part. Gordos are big, hang around forever, and do 14% up close and 11% late, with high knockback.
-Excellent for landing traps. Dedede can use gordos to cover one landing option while he covers another. Putting a Gordo on the Smashville platform shuts down one of the safest ways to land on that stage.
-Combo starter/extender. Opponents hit from behind by Gordo get launched back toward Dedede, who can follow up. Gordo into uair does a dededisgusting amount of damage and can lead to early kills.
-And of course, Gordo is one of the safest and most effective ledge trapping tools in the game. A well placed Gordo can cover almost every ledge option, including doing nothing. With gordos covering most every option and Dedede covering the rest, getting up from the ledge against Dedede can be a pretty daunting task. And if Dedede actually manages to stick a Gordo to the wall while your offstage, God help you.

With all that in mind, I think it's fair to say Gordo gets a bad rap. Yeah getting Gordo reflected back into your face is embarrassing and sucks, but it's way too powerful and versatile a tool to be D-tier. My gut instincts say it should be B-tier, but I'm probably biased because I main the bird, so if others see it fit for C-tier I wouldn't see a problem with that.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'd move Flare Blitz up a tier.

I know a lot of people look at the damage recoil and instantly deem it bad but look at its uses.

• Can kill early
• Can punish bad landings from the other side of the stage
• Can punish laggy moves from across the stage
• Can punish light projectiles from across the stage
• Can help recover both above and below the stage

There's a good reason it has recoil. It's pretty amazing and many Charizard's are too scared to use it correctly.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'd move Flare Blitz up a tier.

I know a lot of people look at the damage recoil and instantly deem it bad but look at its uses.

• Can kill early
• Can punish bad landings from the other side of the stage
• Can punish laggy moves from across the stage
• Can punish light projectiles from across the stage
• Can help recover both above and below the stage

There's a good reason it has recoil. It's pretty amazing and many Charizard's are too scared to use it correctly.

The problem with your logic is that it's the only move that makes you susceptible to jablocks, none of zard's other moves can get you trapped in jablock but flare blitz can especially on a shielding opponent, several projectiles have little end lag while flare blitz there's a frame lag on start-up so unless your opponent has super slow reflexes they WILL shield it, hello jablock, hello easy up smash counter, hello early stock loss.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The problem with your logic is that it's the only move that makes you susceptible to jablocks, none of zard's other moves can get you trapped in jablock but flare blitz can especially on a shielding opponent, several projectiles have little end lag while flare blitz there's a frame lag on start-up so unless your opponent has super slow reflexes they WILL shield it, hello jablock, hello easy up smash counter, hello early stock loss.

I have a solution to that problem.

Don't be stupid with it.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I have a solution to that problem.

Don't be stupid with it.

It's not that clear cut as you make it out to be, between fast-fall quick shields, shield spamming (which zard has a hard time getting around), not to mention all the shield camp mix-ups it's not so easy to say "oh, I should use a high-risk, medium reward move at this time because I know that in that stance he's going to be using a projectile" there's timing to be taken into account, then there's the fact that you can be attacked out of the move and unless you get a clean hit you can't tech it, plus those 5% every time you use the move can be a problem.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's not that clear cut as you make it out to be, between fast-fall quick shields, shield spamming (which zard has a hard time getting around), not to mention all the shield camp mix-ups it's not so easy to say "oh, I should use a high-risk, medium reward move at this time because I know that in that stance he's going to be using a projectile" there's timing to be taken into account, then there's the fact that you can be attacked out of the move and unless you get a clean hit you can't tech it, plus those 5% every time you use the move can be a problem.

Why would you ever try to use it against a fast fall shield or a shield spam? I said against bad landings, not in general.

And if someone is spamming shield, use Charizard's grab which is pretty great. If they are using projectiles you can't punish, don't challenge them. This is ignoring its use at mid range which is still rather nice.

I'm not saying Flare Blitz is this godlike tool. I'm just saying that it's a great one if used properly. You're saying everything that can go wrong with the move. But if we're doing that, we should apply that to every character.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Why would you ever try to use it against a fast fall shield or a shield spam? I said against bad landings, not in general.

And if someone is spamming shield, use Charizard's grab which is pretty great. If they are using projectiles you can't punish, don't challenge them. This is ignoring its use at mid range which is still rather nice.

I'm not saying Flare Blitz is this godlike tool. I'm just saying that it's a great one if used properly. You're saying everything that can go wrong with the move. But if we're doing that, we should apply that to every character.

Um you do realize that we HAVE to point out everything that can go wrong with the move, that was the whole reason this topic was made in the first place, to rank every move AND to list everything that can go wrong with the move.
Ranking a move demands that we take everything that can go wrong with a move into account otherwise we end up ranking it higher than it should be ranked.
We're ranking this in a vacuum though but going over everything that can go wrong with the move (which is listing the moves WEAKNESSES) is part of the reason this entire topic was made in the first place!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Um you do realize that we HAVE to point out everything that can go wrong with the move, that was the whole reason this topic was made in the first place, to rank every move AND to list everything that can go wrong with the move.
Ranking a move demands that we take everything that can go wrong with a move into account otherwise we end up ranking it higher than it should be ranked.
We're ranking this in a vacuum though but going over everything that can go wrong with the move (which is listing the moves WEAKNESSES) is part of the reason this entire topic was made in the first place!

You say that but we honestly haven't been doing that for most moves. We just kind of give some vague statements most of the time.

And forgive me for the lack of explanation I was rushed. I meant to say you're focusing on the moves downsides and only that. Essentially giving the worst case scenario and not the one you're more likely to be in.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

You say that but we honestly haven't been doing that for most moves. We just kind of give some vague statements most of the time.

And forgive me for the lack of explanation I was rushed. I meant to say you're focusing on the moves downsides and only that. Essentially giving the worst case scenario and not the one you're more likely to be in.

Hrmm true, what urked me is discussion dried up, mainly under the impression that final arguments never got anywhere and I have to admit that's the whole problem. Most people just gush about their mains and that's it, I took a slightly different approach and you already put in the good points, the high knockback, ability to punish landings and travel far. So whatever positive thing I could've said about it you already covered.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Hrmm true, what urked me is discussion dried up, mainly under the impression that final arguments never got anywhere and I have to admit that's the whole problem. Most people just gush about their mains and that's it, I took a slightly different approach and you already put in the good points, the high knockback, ability to punish landings and travel far. So whatever positive thing I could've said about it you already covered.

You don't even have to say positives. Negatives are fine.

I'd just work on phrasing personally. 'Twas a bit "in your face" for lack of a better term.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'm kinda like that when stressed then again there are some people on the competitive forums who talk like that too, anyways this is seriously off topic.

 

[Masonomace]

N Nathan Richardson Swamp Sensei Honestly, Flare Blitz to me is a clear & solid tool for reading tech chases most of all, though granted I don't primary Charizard. If you read tumble from afar & they don't respect or fear you, then a Flare Blitz timed for the right floor-option read is death depending on the scenario played out. Regular floor getup, FB. Floor roll back away, FB. Regular floor getup attack, FB. Stalling after the first time you attempt a FB read, you're out-played but now you're more patient. Floor roll forward to avoid FB? Then store that into your memory of reactions to ready for when you create the moment once more.

I definitely feel FB is a lot more intimidating than people give it credit for, & using FB off-stage isn't that amazing yet it's still good cus of the lingering hitbox & explosion hitting the side of a stage. The worst that can happen is the opponent wall-tech jumping & punishing the endlag from Zard's built-in tumble, but it's worth the try right? In any case, when you align this move right with the ledge, you can grab for a very long window of frames, regardless of being at the very ledge teetering & dashing off to ledge-snap or grabbing from a great distance even when you no longer have hitbox activity. Although, the explosion lasting for only two frames is not good. . .still. . the move is pretty nasty overall. The move used on platform-stages makes FB much better to alleviate the tumble if you place the attack right, so that you tumble fall & land on the ledge of a platform to cancel the lag. But yeah.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

After watching ZeRo Saga (especially ZeRo vs. Locus), I'm convinced that Monkey Flip is S tier. The reward is medium, but the risk is so low that you can just throw it out willy-nilly and rarely be punished for it as long as you don't misspace it. Like I said, the reward from connecting it is limited to knocking the opponent off stage, but that's still a pretty good reward. Shielding it is also risky because of the command grab. You can even use it defensively as an easy get-out-of-jail-free card when being juggled, and you can do a B-reverse out of it for further landing mixups. Plus, you can use it to recover, and it's a difficult recovery to punish.

Also, I contend that Arcfire should be A tier. I can explain more if anyone cares, but I doubt anyone does.

Also also, I would move Pound up. The hitbox lasts for approximately five years and is slightly larger than the planet Jupiter. It's a pretty good move to just throw out, certainly better than D tier.

Also also also, move Meta Knight and R.O.B. down. Those moves are literally never used in competitive play.

 

[Nah]

TheHypnotoad go ahead and explain why Arcfire should be A tier. It's more like B tier good to me and not A tier, but hey might as well hear it.

 

[TDK]

Pound is Jiggly's most usable special, and that's kind of hilarious since outside of having a massive hitbox that lasts forever it doesn't do much either. Can also true combo into rest at kill % off bad DI.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Aight, so first of all, Arcfire can't be perfect shielded and has a lingering hitbox, which means it completely stops any sort of grounded approach. It is somewhat ineffective against characters that can run underneath it, but the only characters who can do that are Sonic, Pikachu, Meta Knight, and Little Mac. Against every other character, your opponent will be forced to shield and then roll away so they don't get grabbed, resetting to neutral. There are very few other projectiles in the game that can guarantee a reset back to neutral after an attempted approach, since most can just be perfect shielded. It's also a great ledge trap, since you can place it right at the ledge to cover neutral getups, and the explosion hitbox at the end will hit people who stay on the ledge too long. If the move connects with an opponent, it holds them in place just long enough to allow for an aerial followup, so it's also good for racking up damage.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm but doesn't arcfire have a limited number of uses before it runs out? And can't you only throw out one arcfire at a time?

 

[FamilyTeam]

Hrmm but doesn't arcfire have a limited number of uses before it runs out? And can't you only throw out one arcfire at a time?

Everything Robin does is limited.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Right right, that's his 'thing' but does that lower the effectiveness of it or does it not matter since it only applies to him/her?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Everything Robin does is limited.

Not everything, just the specials, smash attacks, aerials (except neutral air), and full jabs. So tilts, neutral airs, throws, pummels, and dash attacks are not limited, nor are getup-attacks.

Once a tome runs out, Robin can't use the attack(s) related to that tome until it recharges. She can still use her non-specials, ie aerials and smashes, but not the third/fourth hit(s) of jabs. If the Levin sword runs out she can still use the same attacks with the Bronze swords, but they are significantly weaker, so you won't get many KOs with a Bronze smash or a Bronze aerial. So in the case of Arcfire, Robin can simply not use it again until it recharges.

 

[Masonomace]

The biggest deal about ranking Robin's Side-B now, is the unfortunate truth that Arcfire has 6 usages before breaking. Thunder was fine to talk about & give great rating to since it had so many charges, but now we go to Arcfire which we know already has only 6 charges. It is true that it stuffs grounded approaches & anyone shielding will be receiving a dash grab into checkmate (likely scenario). However, the move is punished with SHAD from any character that can autocancel as an example, or you can just simply not advance in means to be that close towards Robin.

One thing about Arcfire I find hard to deal with as the opponent are when I hang on ledge & have to choose a ledge option because that last hitbox tick will hit me hanging should the Arcfire be placed correctly. Like HypnoToad mentioned, yes the move can reset the situation at hand back to neutral which gives Robin charge time for other things to plan. However, Arcfire is not as solid of a move overall due to being a move limited to less charges & having the same respawn time as Thunder. The other problem for Arcfire is that the foe can SDI out of the move & jump away, & if Robin is slightly afar to follow-up, the jumpsquat data on top of the dash speed & air speed are overall a mediocre chase that ends with nothing done. Although in spite of this, that last hit of a successful Arcfire hits like a truck!

 

[FamilyTeam]

Not everything, just the specials, smash attacks, aerials (except neutral air), and full jabs. So tilts, neutral airs, throws, pummels, and dash attacks are not limited, nor are getup-attacks.

Once a tome runs out, Robin can't use the attack(s) related to that tome until it recharges. She can still use her non-specials, ie aerials and smashes, but not the third/fourth hit(s) of jabs. If the Levin sword runs out she can still use the same attacks with the Bronze swords, but they are significantly weaker, so you won't get many KOs with a Bronze smash or a Bronze aerial. So in the case of Arcfire, Robin can simply not use it again until it recharges.

Yeah, I know, I just meant that basically everything special Robin can do will run out in one way or the other and just leave him with basic stuff (like Bronze Sword).