Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Frihetsanka]

Yeah, I know, I just meant that basically everything special Robin can do will run out in one way or the other and just leave him with basic stuff (like Bronze Sword).

Yeah, though not everyone might know as much about Robin as you and I do, so I thought I'd clarify.

 

[|RK|]

Gordos in D tier? But why

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dunno if I would put Zard's Flare Blitz in B tier, there are positives to it, a lot of them. It kills insanely early on some character, Greninja, Falco, Toon Link I've killed in the 50% range of a punish on them.

You mostly use it when you got an insanely good read or you know you will win a trade due to your opponent dedicating too early to something. Toon Link pulls a bomb/throws a boomerang and you know it at the right range, Flare Blitz him and you can potentially kill him.

Greninja charging Shuriken too long, Flare Blitz him.

It's also an amazing recovery tool for Zard.

The problem is the issues with shielding, they can just shield and jab lock him for free huge punishes. That alone honestly makes me hesitant to call it a B tier, I can see arguments for it, but the move is really high risk high reward.

You minimize the risk by using it intelligently, but that risk is still there.

 

[Nemesis561]

Sigh bowser jr always get dumped on.. his side special is not on same tier as something like crash bomb, pika skull bash, Rob's side b and game and watch hammer, that's ridiculous.

Bowser jr whole game plan revolves around side b, and while yes it is an overall bad game plan, the move itself is actually a good one.

His entire movement revolves around side b and jump cancels to bait and punish your opponent. Side b is useful at all percents, at low percents hitting a side b will net you an instant fat combo, some characters can get hit with 50-60% strings just off one side b (heavies moreso) but regardless of character you're getting at least a 30 percent combo

Side b will combo into up air until very high percents where it will kill. And side b will confirm into his up b hammer swing combo which is fairly consistent and can kill at obscene percents. Bowser jr is literally "side b the character" and his combo game and advantage state are one of the only things he has going for him. Without side b hes puff levels of bad

I would say it can be an A tier move, but at the very least it should move into B tier. I could write a lot more about this topic but I won't lol.

 

[|RK|]

Greninja charging Shuriken too long, Flare Blitz him.

Also known as the "Pokémon League" strat.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Rosalina's placement concerns me. They do come out faster than projectiles typically do, but it's extremely short range and deals 2.8-8.4%. Plus the endlag is bad enough that punishes are guaranteed given how close you must be for the attack. Finally it's another move that can't be performed without Luma. I'd recommend lowering this to D. Heck, it's customs meta replacement is basically a falco laser, and falco's laser was ranked D for neutral specials.

...don't Lumas eat star bits? Is this a vomiting attack?

Right right, that's his 'thing' but does that lower the effectiveness of it or does it not matter since it only applies to him/her?

You use a move six times, and then you have no move to use for 12 seconds. That's pretty lowered effectiveness alright. I'd even take a bronze Dair over having nothing at all.

Pound is Jiggly's most usable special, and that's kind of hilarious since outside of having a massive hitbox that lasts forever it doesn't do much either. Can also true combo into rest at kill % off bad DI.

It's hitbox is no larger in general than her aerials and tilts, and only reaches slightly farther horizontally than them by virtue of her moving forward during the attack. 16 active frames is great, but Nair and Dair beat it and Fair comes close as well. As attacks, her aerials have superior frame data and take full advantage of her air stats. Pound just moves forward with no preserved momentum or ability to fade back from a punish. Pound's 11(+20) damage on shields is the real star. 3/4 of a full shield, enough to break one if you landed a Bair in the last second. I just wish the reward on hit was good as well.

For the true combo I believe ideally you get a super late hit of Pound. Though performing the move at max range won't cut it, they'd be too far away to reach with rest. So as close as possible aerial Pound moving upward on somebody who's in the middle of a dodge - not something you just get out of the blue. As for whether it's the best special of hers, naturally there's no contest with Rollout and Sing, but Rest I suspect would rank much higher for the Down B discussion. I do think Pound needs to move up, but only for the reason that there isn't anything offensively wrong with the attack.

 

[Nemesis561]

Dark Pit's may be stronger than Pit's but Pit's is faster and has less end lag at the tail end of the move. That means it's a lot easier to react to Dark Pit's side b than Pit's.

Hey I know you are not the most knowledgeable poster on these boards (I don't mean that in a derogatory way, you openly say that in many of your posts which is good because you are here to learn and don't try to act like you know it all), but you really shouldn't spread false info like this, especially so matter-of-factly when it's blatantly false. You should check out dark pit and pits frame data on side B sometime.

I know quite a few people, especially newer players who come on these boards to learn and assume that whatever is written here is true.

EDIT: OK so reading a little farther along, I see some people already corrected you on this, but the point still stands

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm so then taking into account all the info we have on arcfire do we put that at B tier then since while being useful you can't spam it without losing it completely.

 

[ARGHETH]

Hrmm so then taking into account all the info we have on arcfire do we put that at B tier then since while being useful you can't spam it without losing it completely.

We leave it in B.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Ok then and what about moving flare blitz to C tier due to easy shield then jablock punish?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Ok then and what about moving flare blitz to C tier due to easy shield then jablock punish?

It hasn't moved out of C. And it seems most of us are opposed to a move. Though I think C-F tier needs a restructuring of some kind. The lone F tier of Zelda just isn't sensible (if we had to pick the worst side B in the game, Yoshi would be it, not her). So moving her into D could be all that's needed. Alternatively, Split C-F into new, more concise tiers. There's plenty of D that I'd consider as bad as Zelda, and the rest of D is considerably better. And C tier is too diverse with moves that need to be moved in and out of it.

Let me try that. Both from my perspective and how the conversation has steered these moves.

Current Cs moved into higher tiers:

New C:(moved from B)
New D:
New F: (moved from B)


Though I'm not sure on some rankings like Samus whom I'm surprised people hated as much. Super Missiles alone seem passable enough, leaving homing missiles as a nice variation even if they don't work on their own. Falcon is another odd one to place because out of him, Brawler, Swordfighter, Luigi, and Pikachu, his is the least effective for recovery, but also the best for knockback. But none are viable as an attack given how easy they are to block or avoid and how open they are to punish afterward, so you'd have to logically consider him for a lower tier. I also don't know how harsh we need to be on ROB since all I want to focus on is the 54 frames of endlag - comparable to a Falcon Punch's 56. There's some kill potential, but also clear connection issues at High % with the final hit depending on how you move and how they DI. And I don't have a source on when his reflector activates.

 

[|RK|]

It hasn't moved out of C. And it seems most of us are opposed to a move. Though I think C-F tier needs a restructuring of some kind. The lone F tier of Zelda just isn't sensible (if we had to pick the worst side B in the game, Yoshi would be it, not her). So moving her into D could be all that's needed. Alternatively, Split C-F into new, more concise tiers. There's plenty of D that I'd consider as bad as Zelda, and the rest of D is considerably better. And C tier is too diverse with moves that need to be moved in and out of it.

Let me try that. Both from my perspective and how the conversation has steered these moves.

Current Cs moved into higher tiers:

New C:(moved from B)
New D:
New F: (moved from B)


Though I'm not sure on some rankings like Samus whom I'm surprised people hated as much. Super Missiles alone seem passable enough, leaving homing missiles as a nice variation even if they don't work on their own. Falcon is another odd one to place because out of him, Brawler, Swordfighter, Luigi, and Pikachu, his is the least effective for recovery, but also the best for knockback. But none are viable as an attack given how easy they are to block and how open they are to punish afterward, so you'd have to logically consider him for a lower tier. I also don't know how harsh we need to be on ROB since all I want to focus on is the 54 frames of endlag - comparable to a Falcon Punch's 56. There's some kill potential, but also clear connection issues at High % with the final hit depending on how you move and how they DI.

Yoshi Side B can at least hit people. Zelda Side B is good as a lone F. Kirby should be in D, Pika, Falcon, Luigi, and Pac-Man in C.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Can't wait until this is over.....honestly since the conversation has essentially dried up do we just wait for the tiers to be put up or is there more moves we haven't gone over?

 

[Y2Kay]

I don't know why Mewtwo's side B is in C. It's a reflector, a command grab with good range, and a third jump. It also is good for ledge coverage. It's way better than garbage like Grenade, Missiles, and Skull Bash lol.

Also known as the "Pokémon League" strat.

I hate you.

 

[Masonomace]

I don't know why Mewtwo's side B is in C. It's a reflector, a command grab with good range, and a third jump. It also is good for ledge coverage. It's way better than garbage like Grenade, Missiles, and Skull Bash lol.

Mewtwo's air physics plus Confusion also means that he momentum shifts away from the blastline thus survives a bit longer from using it during heavy launching distance. I think it's better than C tier, & I'd have it at A or B, but probably B for safe-short thought. I think it possesses A-tier mightyness after thinking about it though,

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

It reflects, but only as late as frame 12. Among all possible reflectors in the game, only ROB's Side B (we think) and Ness's Fsmash are slower in this regard. Furthermore, when successful as an attack, it only applies a pressure to the victim to burn double jump. On a successful confusion, the victim has 5 frames of advantage against him, regardless of either character's %. No frame 5 or less aerial can hit Mewtwo from that elevated position, so there's nothing guaranteed as far as I know. I heard Sheik's Fair was guaranteed before it's range was nerfed, but I can't confirm whether that used to be true, it's certainly not now. But I find for many characters it's optimal to attack mewtwo anyway out of tumble. Mewtwo gets pushed excessively far when blocking an attack, and possesses no great OoS options for punishing. The quickest is short hop Fair. But if the victim is too short when suffering landing lag, or their aerial had enough damage to push Mewtwo out of range (13% damage seems to suffice), then they're safe from punishes when Mewtwo performs frame perfectly. But suffice to say with testing you may find your own character just isn't very pressured by this move at all.

I remember testing with Bowser and even his whopping 24 landing lag Fair is totally safe when you fade back while falling. Pushes Mewtwo too far for Fair to reach, doesn't need to spot dodge Dash grab because of the no regrab rule, and frame perfect dash attack/Usmash after Mewtwo puts down shield can be blocked. If mewtwo spot dodges the Fair however, then he gets some advantage. Not enough to get a guaranteed free hit of his own, but enough to keep applying pressure. Get Mewtwo to consistently spot dodge, and Bowser can A land with Side B instead of Fair and get a free nasty hit or grab. The guessing game just keeps going as you consider each player's options.

To recap, Mewtwo's side B can be seen as a comparatively slow reflector. And as a command grab, it's reward is dubious beyond the 9% damage. Since this is a side B ranking, it's competing with Bowser, Lucario, and Ganon's Side Bs. Quicker than Ganon, but slower than the other two in startup. Bowser's from the ground in particular not only beats Mewtwo's in general frame data but kills outright in addition to double the damage dealt, or a niche suicide application. I wouldn't put Mewtwo as high as A. Nor would I put him in B without first putting Ganon and Bowser in B/A, I only see those two moves as strictly better than Mewtwo's. In serious play, Confusion is almost strictly used as a landing mixup and recovery move rather than reflector/command grab. And it's better at that. Lucario can stay put in C. It's only a threatening command grab at high aura. The blast's range is not as large as the visual ever implies, and it can be reflected as well which is a bizarre, harmful choice in programming the move.

 

[TDK]

I get that it's Jigglypuff and she'll always be looked at unfavourably, but Pound has uses unlike some other things in D, and is more in line with the Side-B's in C. Please move it up.

Zelda's placement's spot-on though, Din's Fire is the worst move in the game.

 

[Nemesis561]

I get that it's Jigglypuff and she'll always be looked at unfavourably, but Pound has uses unlike some other things in D, and is more in line with the Side-B's in C. Please move it up.


Zelda's placement's spot-on though, Din's Fire is the worst move in the game.

Worst than puff neutral b?

However I'd agree puff side b is decent, C tier IMO

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Worst than puff neutral b?

However I'd agree puff side b is decent, C tier IMO

its sooooo much worse than Puff neutral B
Puff can put on actual shield pressure with neutral b, Din's fire is useless regardless of what characters its on

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

its sooooo much worse than Puff neutral B
Puff can put on actual shield pressure with neutral b, Din's fire is useless regardless of what characters its on

Shield pressure? Jigglypuff goes into a forced lag state when she collides with somebody. Getting blocked when using rollout puts you in more lag than getting blocked when you use Flare Blitz. And it's worse if you are in the air, since she never recovers from the lag state and falls to her death offstage. So if you see her wind up rollout offstage, forcefully block her path with a projectile or your own body for an instant kill. Sitting at the ledge and shielding often does the trick as well, as she needs amazing aim in order to be low enough to avoid colliding with your shield, yet high enough to grab the ledge. Rollout has the worst risk to reward ratio I can think of for an attack, and is a nonviable recovery choice both for her health and for the fact that jigglypuff doesn't need a horizontal recovery move with that air speed and multiple jumps.

By comparison, Din's Fire is actually safe on shield. Safer than most projectiles because of a delayed explosion. Not that that suddenly makes the move good, but it's an important distinction between the two.

 

[TDK]

At least you can use Rollout offstage without immediately dying, right?

Also Din's fire isn't safe on hit half the time let alone shield.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

At least you can use Rollout offstage without immediately dying, right?

Also Din's fire isn't safe on hit half the time let alone shield.

Din's Fire explodes, and she can act 24 frames later. There's no other way to put it other than that's above average in terms of low endlag. But other projectiles are a projectile for all of the time they're traveling, not just when they detonate, so you can't directly compare Din's Fire to those other moves. But when it does hit or gets blocked, you're absolutely safe. The problem with Din's fire is how vulnerable she is on a miss or when its traveling.

As for Rollout, if you're asking whether the move puts you in special fall when you don't collide with anything, the answer is no, I don't think so. But it takes so much time for her to stop spinning that an SD is generally guaranteed if she doesn't grab a ledge or land onstage. If the opponent is not aware of how they can get directly in front of rollout to kill her, then she'll get away with it then, but that's just poor MU knowledge. Even when they don't know how Rollout works, blocking something that takes entire seconds to charge is just a sensible reaction - and the correct one. If Jigglypuff has enough time to wind up rollout offstage, then she's in a position where she can float over the ledge and do any number of mixups for safe recovery and landing. It's of no use to her for recovery and too likely will make her lose a stock if attempted as a blind mixup. The worst move in the game.

 

[Galaxeon]

ZSS should be a tier higher, ofc on the ground the moves pretty much sucks and that's a pity for a Side B, but offstage it's the tether that reaches the longest distance by a very big margin, it's an amazing recovery tool that makes ZSS so quick and good offstage, and it also allows for the quickest trump which is devastating with her amazing bair. People only think of the grounded version and that's fair because it could be much better, but in practice, in a real match, this move is basically used all the time for edgeguards, recovery, kills, mix-ups. Unlike all other chars in D-tier and many of C-tier which basically never/rarely use their Side-B.

 

[kirbymaster911]

Does anybody know if we discussed neutral Bs so far?

 

[Nah]

Does anybody know if we discussed neutral Bs so far?

we did yeah, that was fairly recent

 

[arbustopachon]

Since discussion on side bs has pretty much dried up, should we start talking about down bs?

 

[ARGHETH]

Probably.

Bayo, ZSS, and Sheik for S tier.
Corrin's is B or something, A if we're being generous.
Robin's is C; it's a nice command grab, but has flaws.
Cloud is S or A depending on how Limit charge is counted.

 

[meticulousboy]

By the way, I rather ask this now rather than later, but I want to know if after we finish Side Special and Down Special, maybe we can take it farther: ranking characters' pummels. Damage, speed, and the throws of the character would be the basis for ranking.

 

[TDK]

Link's Bombs are among the best projectiles in the game and are easily A tier.

They combo, can save you from a bad situation, aid in recovery, turn your shield into a Land Mine if you're so inclined, and you can soft toss them to just leave a hitbox on the stage that your opponent is forced to respect. They're versatile, powerful, and having one is never a bad idea.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's down B is in the same category as Marth/Lucina/Roy. Slightly worse off stage, slightly better on stage. Not a big enough difference between the four for them to be in different tiers.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Down Bs?
- We know of its healing properties, anything that's a energy projectile heals Ness. Kurogane has it at frame 18 but that doesn't sound right at all. Makes some MUs great like Robin, makes some characters think twice before firing off their projectiles like Mewtwo and Samus. Can heal off a few surprising things like Toon/Link's bombs, Shieks Vanish and even D3's Stars from his Up B landing!

It's not useless against characters without energy projectiles either. Like all his specials he can alter his momentum if he uses it mid air it's FAF is the quickest of his specials so it has great use as a stall move or bait. You can use it to B reverse to set up Bair. It even has a windbox that's not worth much but still nice to know. I'd give it a B grade

- It reflects? It's laggy, unsafe unless you get the trip which you can't do anything to follow up with. At most outside of it's reflect uses you can use it to finish combos. I'd give it a C grade

 

[Got4n]

I know Neutral B tier list had been made, but I don't agree with Rosa on D, even falln told me neutral b might be her best move, it's a move that allow a much more faster desync and at a much more long distance, it's a key to her gameplay, it can kill early also and you can do air shenanegans with that lol

 

[arbustopachon]

Go to 1.22 for Zard's rocksmash.

So rocksmash is an interesting move. It gives zard super armor from frames 5-23, hits on frames 24-26 and spawns residue which hits from frames 27-46. It has a faf of 72.

The initial hit deals 14% sends in an angle of 60º, has bkb of 60 and a kbg of 80. The initial hit starts killing most characters at around 130%-140%.

The residue deals 3%, launches in an angle of 70º, has a bkb of 50 and a kbg of 70. rocksmash spawns 5 pebbles of residue.

If the whole move connects it deals a whopping 29% making it great at punishing the opponent, specially considering the plenty amount of super armor this move has. Due to its high damage it can lead into shield breaks, don't ever hit a shield with this unless you are sure it will shield break tho.

Rocksmash can be wavebounced and b reversed for mixups.

Rocksmash can be used as a landing tool and combo breaker due to its super armor. Bear in mind tho that due to the move's high startup its posible you'll armor a move only to get punished afterwards. Also while decent, frame 5 armor isn't the best when it comes to combo breaking.

Now onto some weird things rocksmash does.

While falling rocksmash stalls Zard and makes him unable to change his horizontal momentum.

Rocksmash can be jump cancelled allowing Zard to slide around the ground while rocksmashing. This improves the moves ability to chase rolls and punish attacks. You can do jc rocksmashes out of a dash in order to slide a longer distance, you can also wavebounce it for extra mixups.

For some reason if Zard falls out of a platform while doing a jc rocksmash he won't stall on the air and he will be able to change his horizontal momentum. This can help throw off the opponent due to the different timing.

So rocksmash is a pretty interesting move, good at punishing and escaping but it's extremely laggy and punishable.

I'd say B for it?

 

[Vyrnx]

Some of the good down B's in no order:


Maybe missing a few.

Deep Breathing is good too. It heals 2% and turns almost her entire moveset into kill moves. With deep breathing nair, Wii Fit has the most damaging combos in the game doing 70-80 damage. Ftilt, uair, bair, and sun salutation become pretty scary.

I'm pretty sure deep breathing tipper usmash doesn't launch opponents, it just deletes them.

The actual charge forces approaches and is shield cancelable on the ground, in the air it stalls her momentum and is air dodge cancelable either left or right. It's really good for landing and recovering, which makes it a relevant move even when the buff isn't active.

She's going to get it 2-3+ times per game, and it's better to just run away from her.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Go to 1.22 for Zard's rocksmash.

So rocksmash is an interesting move. It gives zard super armor from frames 5-23, hits on frames 24-26 and spawns residue which hits from frames 27-46. It has a faf of 72.

The initial hit deals 14% sends in an angle of 60º, has bkb of 60 and a kbg of 80. The initial hit starts killing most characters at around 130%-140%.

The residue deals 3%, launches in an angle of 70º, has a bkb of 50 and a kbg of 70. rocksmash spawns 5 pebbles of residue.

If the whole move connects it deals a whopping 29% making it great at punishing the opponent, specially considering the plenty amount of super armor this move has. Due to its high damage it can lead into shield breaks, don't ever hit a shield with this unless you are sure it will shield break tho.

Rocksmash can be wavebounced and b reversed for mixups.

Rocksmash can be used as a landing tool and combo breaker due to its super armor. Bear in mind tho that due to the move's high startupits posible you'll armor a move only to get punished afterwards. Also while decent, frame 5 armor isn't the best when it comes to combo breaking.

Now onto some weird things rocksmash does.

While falling rocksmash stalls Zard and makes him unable to change his horizontal momentum.

Rocksmash can be jump cancelled allowing Zard to slide around the ground while rocksmashing. This improves the moves ability to chase rolls and punish attacks. You can do jc rocksmashes out of a dash in order to slide a longer distance, you can also wavebounce it for extra mixups.

For some reason if Zard falls out of a platform while doing a jc rocksmash he won't stall on the air and he will be able to change his horizontal momentum. This can help throw off the opponent due to the different timing.

So rocksmash is a pretty interesting move, good at punishing and escaping but it's extremely laggy and punishable.

I'd say B for it?

I'd also like to add that it's one of the easiest moves to practice b-reversing with (I actually call it a 'boomerang jump' since zard goes right back to where he was when he starts up the move). If you're like me and don't have a grasp on advanced techniques like pivoting, b-reversing etc. This is a good move to practice with, though admittedly sometimes when I inputted the move zard would spontaneously turn around when I didn't want him too. That down-b is one of charizard's best moves, between super-armor, one of the only moves that gives zard advanced movement options, oh and the residue can stun an opponent so you can follow up (I once caught an opponent with an up smash when he jumped the gun and walked into one of the rock smash residue's many lingering hurtboxes). I'd actually say it's better than B-rank due to sheer versatility (oh and you don't go into helpless falling mode after using it)

 

[SJMistery]

Greninja's Substitute to D, C being generous, E being strict. Almost worthless on land if the opponent plays conservatively due to slow startup and negligible shield damage, and can be interrupted by almost any weak attack with a reasonably big hitbox due to the frames where Greninja does not have any damaging hitbox active on the move, in particular by infinite jabs, destroying it's main advantage of hitting hard regardless of what did you counter.
Plus the massive start-up lag, tiny activation window and tremendous endlag eliminates the use as a panic-last-resort-get-off-me-button most counters have and causes most people to be unable to time it at all. Not that it matters because if you DO land it, you will likely eat a punish anyway, that might even be worse than having let the previous attack hit you. Ah, and depending on where you spawn, it can even be interrupted by the edges of the stage or even by the doll itself, WTF Sakurai?

Semi Off-Topic
On Smash Switch, I hope Sakurai makes this move like Ryu's Focus Attack: letting the user charge it after a successfull dodge for bigger damage and shieldstun by holding B, or to fire it right away by tapping it quickly, giving it mindgame potential.
Or causing everybody that attacks the doll from melee distance to be stunned for a fixed 30 frames in a similar fashion to Zamus' gun and Corrin's DFS so Gren can strike back without fear, that would work too... If either was the case, where would you put it?

 

[Nah]

The counters should probably be like this relative to each other:





Mii Swordfighter counter probably falls into the middle area, but I'll let @Routa or someone else handle that one.

Witch Time is good but overrated, idk if I'd call it S rank.

 

[Dig Dug]

Olimar's down b might be another contender for N/A tier. Given the context of the list, I don't know where else to put it. Though unlike his neutral b, he can still function without the whistle, just not very smoothly or efficiently.

Not much to say about it. It's main purpose is to call his Pikmin back which is pretty big. For example, if you get launched off stage, your Pikmin will try to follow you, but unless you whistle them they'll more likely than not just fall to their deaths. Other scenarios where you'd want to whistle varies depending on what's going on and whether or not your Pikmin are being TOTAL IDIOTS. ...I just get a headache trying to imagine Olimar without this move.

Its secondary effect is its super armor, lasting frames 6-12, giving him a landing option, and with its low cooldown (9 frames after the super armor ends) he can often retaliate before the opponent recovers from their move. While it can also be used to reorder his Pikmin, it's somewhat finicky at doing so. Its faster and more reliable to reorder with uair or dsmash anyway.

 

[Masonomace]

The counters should probably be like this relative to each other:





Mii Swordfighter counter probably falls into the middle area, but I'll let @Routa or someone else handle that one.

Witch Time is good but overrated, idk if I'd call it S rank.

D: What about & ?

It always seems like Palu's Counter is looked at as a bad move, but it's probably C-tier from a decent standpoint. Could be B or D-tier. Can't really say what it warrants more unless a Palu main clears the air.
-
-
Shulk's Vision however is. . .really good & really bad depending on the wisdom you apply to it. It's really good because the move has a huge amount of base damage to the move when grounded or airborne. And you can even just hold forward or toward the move hitting your counter stance (meaning that if a move hits you from above yet forcibly turns you around, then you'll need to hold the other direction to get Forward Vision). Forward Vision has a base damage of 13%, 70 BKB, & 94 KBG, off of countering a move that can be so weak & measly as a Jab. It's nuts. Add to the fact that you can be in Smash art & well, you could die much, much earlier to say the least. There's even a good amount of applications you can do with Vision & you all don't even know the half of it. . . so just wait .

On the other hand, Vision is really bad, because over-using the counter too much means that you have a depreciated counter window of 5 frames. . . Frame 7-11 is the worst counter window possible without Customs & it's from over-usage to the max (frame 6-7 is intangible for grounded use, & frame 7-8 is intangible for aerial use). Combine the fact that you can't use a Forward Vision in the air, with the popular distaste Shulk players have for often whiffing with the counterattack in the air due to some Z-axis / hitbox problems. You also have no intangibility during the aerial counterattack itself, in fact the counterattack startup is intangible from 9-44 while the attack is 45-46, so the move has been prone to trade or straight-up lose a challenge in reply to countering a move hitting more than once.

TL;DR Grounded Vision is stupid-good. Aerial Vision is stupid-bad. Although, using Vision in a way that has you landing while inputting the counter is. . .incredible & absolutely mint. The pros definitely out-weigh the cons however, so I'd rate Vision A-tier for now. I'd rank it S-tier myself, but I won't do that for now.

 

[SJMistery]

Just realized: On the side specials we have F tier but not E tier. Is that an error?
By the way Ike's counter is better than Marcina's and Roy's. Wider range, instant reaction after landing it for combos at low %, and downright MASSIVE knockback at mid %. I might be biased, I totally suck at fighting Ike.