Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Nah]

....**** I knew I was forgetting someone

 

[TriTails]

Garbage Missile is F, or whatever lowest tier there is. Move is virtually useless.

It is the most functional as a recovery move, or rather, 'I-press-this-button-and-you-can-gimp-me-for-free-button' recovery move. Which is hillarious because this move seems to be built centered around recovering. It's even worse on-stage where it's literally dysfunctional.

And before anyone yell at me about misfire, if a move requires you to pray to the RNG lord to make the said move functional, that move is trash, period.

I'd take Din's Fire over Garbage Missile any day. Hell, Garbage Missile just seems to deserve a tier of its own. Play the character himself if you don't trust me.

 

[JayZee1700]

's Wizard Foot:

- High Priority
- Low Startup (considering his other moves)
- High KBG in air (100 KBG)
- Kills Stupid Early (in air)
- Edge Cancels (on ground)
- One of the Strongest Meteor Smashes (in air)

The only downside is its end lag, and therefore it's easily punished if you miss. High risk, high reward.

I'd say B tier IMO.

 

[Frihetsanka]

....**** I knew I was forgetting someone

And Peach. Poor Toad.

Also .

 

[doritos29]

Garbage Missile is F, or whatever lowest tier there is. Move is virtually useless.

It is the most functional as a recovery move, or rather, 'I-press-this-button-and-you-can-gimp-me-for-free-button' recovery move. Which is hillarious because this move seems to be built centered around recovering. It's even worse on-stage where it's literally dysfunctional.

And before anyone yell at me about misfire, if a move requires you to pray to the RNG lord to make the said move functional, that move is trash, period.

I'd take Din's Fire over Garbage Missile any day. Hell, Garbage Missile just seems to deserve a tier of its own. Play the character himself if you don't trust me.

Lol the fact that misfire can happen makes it better than din's fire. Depending on where you use it off stage, it can be safe. If you are very far off stage and you barely charge it, you will be safe unless you get hit by bouncing fish. Im pretty sure there are more hits by random misfire than din's fire, because you can actually hit people with it.

You should also explain to me how egg roll is better than green missile because egg roll is even worse than din's fire.

 

[Nemesis561]

Bowser jr Mecha koopas is a good move in the hands of a good bowser jr player. Brutal end lag on this move so you've gotta be smart about deploying it, but when used CORRECTLY, is very good at helping to control the neutral.

An opponent getting hit by Mecha koopa when it's on the ground leads to nice combos, as well as kill confirms (depending on where they get hit, you can line yourself up to where they will end up and finish with up air or up b hammer swing).

Deploying a Mecha koopa behind you , (allowing it to end up following you as it reaches ledge and then turns around ) and then chasing your opponent with side b is great shield pressure, and can help open up your opponent's shield (which is a weak point for jr).

The best and most versatile use of Mecha koopa however Is a held item, picking it up and then z drop and regrabbing allows you to be invincible from the explosion, great for pressuring your opponent. Held Mecha koopa is also good for ledge pressure, z dropping at ledge and catching your opponent's normal getup can net some early kills.

Also characters with bad recoveries like cloud, Mac etc can really have trouble with Mecha koopa thrown down at ledge as it will catch them easily because they're not auto snapping to ledge.

There's also some foot stool shenanigans involving Mecha koopa, so overall it's really versatile and key to bowser jrs game plan. There's obviously downsides though, a good opponent can use it against you so like I said, you need to be deploying the Mecha koopa in correct situations.

I would say B tier is a good spot for this move, someone has gotta stick up for this character because nobody else will lol if anybody wants to see great use of Mecha koopa watch vice grip of socal, he's a wizard with them

 

[Galaxeon]

is terrible. It's strong, which is great. The fact you can chose the way you send your opponent is also useful, because it allows for some deadly combos (upward counter -> uair is a true kill confirm on everyone before 100%). The downward counter is surprisingly the strongest spiking move in the game (apparently). Buuuut despite all of these pros on paper, the window and endlag are laughably bad, the time it takes for the move to actually come out is slow af, and everything will beat the move. Making it extremely situationnal, unable to counter moves with low endlag (you'll get punished even if you read your opponent), unable to edgeguard consistantly...
Things to note : the doll/wood thingy has surprising uses - it blocks most projectiles - but it disappears after a few seconds. And the stalling property of the counter when used in the air is useless since neutral B does the same, and faster.

It wouldn't take much to make it actually decent. A faster start-up, or more invicibilty frames, or a lower endlag... But nah. It's not unusable, as I said it can kill in an unexpected way... i guess. Overall the move deserves a D-tier imo, depending on other down specials (but they're generally pretty good I think, so...).

is bonkers.
is also S-tier, this move can do basically everything.

 

[Routa]

If I remember correctly Swordspider has slightly better counter than other FE characters (expect Corrin) in terms of killpower. Is it strong enough to be a tier higher than the other FE counters? Nah.

Fun fact: Swordspider's counter can kill earlier than Corrin's... but you need to be at the edge of the stage hehe.

Gunner's reflector is your basic reflector. It is mainly used for stalling and turning Gunner around for Gundash recovery. Is it better than Fox? No. The only difference is that Gunner has more uses for it than Fox. C tier seems fine.

Now for the weird one... Brawler's.
Should I pick this move if all moves are allowed?
NO!
Feint Jump is godlike. Sadly it is pretty much must have.
Does the head suck then?
No no no.. it is really good move.
It can deal 20% if you connect the whole move from the ground and it will burrow the foe. It also has a spike hitbox so it can be used for edgeguarding. Framedata wise it is slower than Yoshi's. Frame 8 from ground and frame 28 from air. It is good move in general. Too bad it is overshadowed by Feint Jump. I would say B or C tier move.

 

[TriTails]

Lol the fact that misfire can happen makes it better than din's fire.

And before anyone yell at me about misfire, if a move requires you to pray to the RNG lord to make the said move functional, that move is trash, period.

----

Depending on where you use it off stage, it can be safe. If you are very far off stage and you barely charge it, you will be safe unless you get hit by bouncing fish.

If you're not charging it off-stage then there's little point on using it to begin with. It doesn't change Luigi's trail of recovery in a significant amount enough to make a difference, unless it misfires.

And like you said, you're sitting duck. What do you do against people who have projectiles? They can just snipe the end lag because we are completely vulnerable during it. If that doesn't kill, then we just gave them free damage and potentially worse position to be in.

Im pretty sure there are more hits by random misfire than din's fire, because you can actually hit people with it.

And I'm pretty sure Din's Fire doesn't get punished as often as Garbage Missile every time it fails to misfire, because at the very least Din's Fire is an unreflectable projectile that can be used to threaten opponents offstage with a bad recovery without taking risks yourself. With Garbage Missile it's risk everything.

And also, 1/10 is practically once in a blue moon dude.

You should also explain to me how egg roll is better than green missile because egg roll is even worse than din's fire.

I forgot about Egg Roll. I'm not sure myself since I don't play Yoshi.

But my point still stands. Garbage Missile is one of the worst Side-Bs in the game and deserves the lowest tier, even though it may not be ordered as THE absolute worst. This move's entire functionality depends on that 1/10 chance, otherwise it's not worth using. That's not a good move design bruh.

 

[Fenny]

Not gonna bother talking about Witch Time, arguably the most borked move in the game. S tier free.

Marth's is probably C tier. Not a particularly special counter and is weaker than basically every other FE character's.

Not sure about Lucas as it's pretty situational. Can be used to stall his recovery, absorb energy based projectiles (which in itself is pretty common) and can damage people who walk into the field on release.

 

[SJMistery]

It wouldn't take much to make it actually decent. A faster start-up, or more invicibilty frames, or a lower endlag... But nah. It's not unusable, as I said it can kill in an unexpected way... i guess. Overall the move deserves a D-tier imo, depending on other down specials (but they're generally pretty good I think, so...).
.

Yeah, they totally wasted excellent potential with that ridiculous start-up+low shieldstun+high endlag+vulnerability frames right before the kick.
In my opinion, the perfect way to make it useful would be to make the move work a little like Ryu's Focus Attack:
If you only tap the button and quickly release it, you get an almost immediate kick of about half the knockback of the attack, with combo potential but not real kill potential until above 150%.
By holding B for a little, you can charge it and deal much higher damage and shieldstun, with up to 30 frames of charge, and up to 60 until you attack automatically.

After all, that's the entire point of the move in the Pokémon games: If you use it on the right time, you gain precious time to either get an attack on a dangerous opponent or set-up your stats for a sweep.

And, of course, make sure Greninja can go through the doll without the attack stopping. Seriously, you know a move is bad when it can randomly block itself.

But, it would be a bad idea to just give the move a faster start-up: The fixed damage and knockback would prove broken by all the reasons you mentioned thanks to the consistent damage and knockback: If not for the terrible start-up lag, it could easily kill you off a countered jab, and spiking anybody to death at ridiculously low percents for a kill would be far too good.

 

[doritos29]

----

If you're not charging it off-stage then there's little point on using it to begin with. It doesn't change Luigi's trail of recovery in a significant amount enough to make a difference, unless it misfires.

And like you said, you're sitting duck. What do you do against people who have projectiles? They can just snipe the end lag because we are completely vulnerable during it. If that doesn't kill, then we just gave them free damage and potentially worse position to be in.


And I'm pretty sure Din's Fire doesn't get punished as often as Garbage Missile every time it fails to misfire, because at the very least Din's Fire is an unreflectable projectile that can be used to threaten opponents offstage with a bad recovery without taking risks yourself. With Garbage Missile it's risk everything.

And also, 1/10 is practically once in a blue moon dude.


I forgot about Egg Roll. I'm not sure myself since I don't play Yoshi.

But my point still stands. Garbage Missile is one of the worst Side-Bs in the game and deserves the lowest tier, even though it may not be ordered as THE absolute worst. This move's entire functionality depends on that 1/10 chance, otherwise it's not worth using. That's not a good move design bruh.

I agree with you that green missile is a bad move but it's better than din's fire due to its 10% chance of being a good move while din's fire has a 0% chance of being good because you can just air dodge the blast. Honestly if you charge the missile all the way in the blast zone it can be difficult to intercept if used correctly.

Fun fact: If you input Green missile as a smash attack you can reduce the amount of time needed to charge and it makes chargeless missile go slightly further. This is done by pressing side and b at the same time.

 

[JayZee1700]

's Hand Slap is good because:

-It covers a long range (Ground hitbox)
-Deals insane shield pressure
-Is DK's 2nd fastest meteor smash when used in the air (first hit comes out on frame 19, his fastest is D-air on frame 14)

However, it has some downsides:

-Can't hit airborne opponents (Ground hitbox)
-High end lag; easily punished if you miss (Ground hitbox)
-First hit does not consistently combo into second, and spiking hit (Aerial and Meteor hitbox)

I'd say C tier, IMO


's Stone is good because:

-Has super armor
-Comes out pretty fast (When used on ground; comes out frame 11)
-Breaks shields reliably
-Has high horizontal KB when used on ground, making it a good on characters that struggles with recovery (Cloud, Luigi, Mac, etc.)

's Stone is also bad because:

-Vulnerable for nearly a full second (28 frames) before super armor kicks in; easy punish if opponent is there to do so (Aerial)
-High end lag after the transformation; easily punished with something quick, like a grab (Ground and Aerial)

Again, I'd put at C tier, low B tier if we're generous


's F.L.U.D.D is good because:

-Literally the best gimping tool in the game
-No commitment needed, so it can be charged basically in any situation, and canceled in any situation
-Angle-able, so you can react to how opponent recovers
-Difficult to punish

's F.L.U.D.D doesn't really have a huge downside. It's one of the best low-risk to high reward ratio in the game.

A tier at worst.

 

[Crystanium]

Spoiler: Side-Special

Ok here is the initial list for Side-Special. There was a lot of discrepancies between some characters in the ranks so I expect a lot of discussion to come, following some changes.

Bayonnaise can stay in place. Move Corrin down. Dragon Lunge is telegraphed. So is Spin Dash. I suppose Cloud should be next to Bayou by virtue of being another brain dead character. Lolimar should move up, too. Pikmin are annoying, especially that heavy one. I think ZSS should move up. Sure, her plasma whip doesn't remain connected like it did in Brawl, but it still is useful in keeping the opponent at bay(o). Fox and Falco should be dropped down. It's a telegraphed attack. Good for closing the gap and horizontal recovery, but some are prone to land onto the stage, rather than the ledge, allowing a good death for them.

King Dedede should be lower. Put him where DK is. It's easy to knock back. Sheik should also drop. Who actually gets hit by her grenade? Even with its vacuum effect, it's a terrible attack. It's predictable.

 

[Masonomace]

Actually, I mentioned in my previous post, "personally I'd rate it S-tier". That's because of recent things learned about the move, but I'm gonna snap back to the truth & go ahead with Shulk's Vision being A-tier at best. I would say at least B-tier or worse, but that's basically for the notion that someone is over-using Vision frequently & not letting it's counter frames regenerate enough. They're probably also using Vision in the air a lot which you shouldn't be doing. Groundnear Visions are pretty good though, & with Vision Sliding as well as other secrets to it, I really see Vision being A-tier when you can punish a projectile from miles away whereas no other counter could.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

I think Jolt Haymaker should be in B. It might not be a great recovery option, but boy is is good. It gives you burst movement, has good Kill Power and allows you to avoid low moves, which means most projectiles, and put out a huge hitbox. It's definitely better than most Side Bs in C Tier. Same goes for Bouncing Fish, which is a very good recovery option too.

 

[SJMistery]

Yeah, it is very good for randomly jumping off the edge when you tried to use Up-B.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

*ahem*

Memes die hard, but if you are bad, don't blame it on the move. Some are useless, but none of the two I touched here are. And if you mess up by SideB'ing when you want to UpB, that's your fault. And no one uses Mac's UpB without a good reason. It's a good kill move all around, but it has a good amount of landing lag.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Seems everyone here is content with saying that Din's Fire sucks and leaving it at that.

The move does have some useful properties, mostly its intangibility. While the explosion can be absorbed, the projectile itself cannot be absorbed or reflected, making it very useful against characters like Rosaluma (where it will hit Luma no matter what) and Villager, where it can't be pocketed unlike Phantom. It destroys any projectiles caught in the explosion, which is useful in the odd matchup or two like Megaman. Unless your opponent is named Cloud or loves to sit there all day and perfect shield, it forces approaches safely, if used properly. Lastly, it does serve a purpose edgeguarding, even if it doesn't kill - it forces the opponent to jump or air dodge. Depending on whether they go high or low, Zelda can now commit to and edgeguard option.

Sure, the move has pretty bad start up and end lag. Special fall is stupid. But, as a projectile, it serves its purpose. Meme-status makes this move an F, but I don't believe it belongs in a tier on its own.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Uhhh... Just going to correct you here. While you probably can negate a Metal Blade, a Crash Bomb or Buster Shots(a.k.a. lemons), you ill probably not get much from it. The range at which you usually start your projectile pressure as Mega Man is just too close to let Din's Fire be relevant. I feel like Nayru's Love is generally more useful, and not just because it's a reflector, but also because hitboxes wreck careless close range plays.

And it has too much endlag to be safe in close / mid-range. It isn't THAT BAD, but it has a very weird niche.
Just like Crash Bomb.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm, ok so um what's left? Have we gone over everyone? Are we missing anyone on the down bs?

 

[Xamad]

We really need to update the title, though. It still says we're discussing Side B when we're discussing Down B.

Either way, is fairly good. It's probably the best of the reflectors since you can act immediately out of a reflect (either jump, spotdodge, or roll), and it has other uses like stalling in the air, and it can potentially gimp bad recoveries. Though, it's still somewhat situational, and I don't think it's quite the best Down B out there when things like and exist. Not sure where I'd put it, though. Maybe B.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu Focus attack is B tier at best, but most likely C tier.

Seems super busted at first then you look at the frame data and all the counter play as well as how much he commits and you just kinda say, "oh...meh."

 

[ARGHETH]

We really need to update the title, though. It still says we're discussing Side B when we're discussing Down B.

Either way, is fairly good. It's probably the best of the reflectors since you can act immediately out of a reflect (either jump, spotdodge, or roll), and it has other uses like stalling in the air, and it can potentially gimp bad recoveries. Though, it's still somewhat situational, and I don't think it's quite the best Down B out there when things like and exist. Not sure where I'd put it, though. Maybe B.

It still says that because Funbot hasn't been here in a while. We decided to go to Down B on our own.

I decided to make a revised Side Special list, in case anybody's interested.

Spoiler: side-B

Ike B->C
Roy C->B
Wario B->A
Jr C->B
Ganon C->B
Bowser C->B
WFT C->B
Rosa B->D
Stuff happened in C-F tier

I couldn't decide about Greninja, Mewtwo, and Charizard (all Pokemon, coincidentally enough), so I decided to just leave them where they were.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

We agreed to leave zard where he was and robin where he was, you're good.

 

[doritos29]

Seems everyone here is content with saying that Din's Fire sucks and leaving it at that.

The move does have some useful properties, mostly its intangibility. While the explosion can be absorbed, the projectile itself cannot be absorbed or reflected, making it very useful against characters like Rosaluma (where it will hit Luma no matter what) and Villager, where it can't be pocketed unlike Phantom. It destroys any projectiles caught in the explosion, which is useful in the odd matchup or two like Megaman. Unless your opponent is named Cloud or loves to sit there all day and perfect shield, it forces approaches safely, if used properly. Lastly, it does serve a purpose edgeguarding, even if it doesn't kill - it forces the opponent to jump or air dodge. Depending on whether they go high or low, Zelda can now commit to and edgeguard option.

Sure, the move has pretty bad start up and end lag. Special fall is stupid. But, as a projectile, it serves its purpose. Meme-status makes this move an F, but I don't believe it belongs in a tier on its own.

The move can be easily dodged or blocked by any character unless the character has a super terrible recovery and is forced to airdodge off stage, also the move might have a niche against rosa because as you stated, Luma is vulnerable to it.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

The move can be easily dodged or blocked by any character unless the character has a super terrible recovery and is forced to airdodge off stage, also the move might have a niche against rosa because as you stated, Luma is vulnerable to it.

Again, the point isn't to hit, even if a successful hit guarantees death in many cases. The point is to force the opponent to commit to a jump or airdodge because, even though they have the frame advantage after that, Zelda has now limited them to either a high or low recovery.

To the person that mentioned it not being good to block projectiles, it's really useful against things like most of DH's projectiles and Villager Side-B. If used as a mixup, it can break Link/Tink bomb glide tosses, and will outright trade positively with charged arrow and certain other projectiles.

 

[doritos29]

Again, the point isn't to hit, even if a successful hit guarantees death in many cases. The point is to force the opponent to commit to a jump or airdodge because, even though they have the frame advantage after that, Zelda has now limited them to either a high or low recovery.

To the person that mentioned it not being good to block projectiles, it's really useful against things like most of DH's projectiles and Villager Side-B. If used as a mixup, it can break Link/Tink bomb glide tosses, and will outright trade positively with charged arrow and certain other projectiles.

The move is way too slow to capitalize on forcing a certain path of recovery. So what if they recover low? Zelda isn't going to punish the low recovery in time unless the enemy doesn't snap the edge with their up b or the recovery is slow in general.

 

[doritos29]

The move is way too slow to capitalize on forcing a certain path of recovery. So what if they recover low? Zelda isn't going to punish the low recovery in time unless the enemy doesn't snap the edge with their up b or the recovery is slow in general.

Forcing jumps is also not gonna do anything good for Zelda because they will just land safely while Zelda is in lag.

 

[Diddy Kong]

: S Tier Side B, for sure.

-Can Recover
-Amazing Command Grab
-Amazing approach
-Does great damage and has good reach, comes out relatively fast to
-Diddy's way of doing a sex kick basically by using Side B pressing A
-Gimping novelity usage

I suspect it's pretty much the best Side B in the game

 

[Routa]

The worst part is that even if you hit him out of it... he is able to use it again. I hate that move with passion.

 

[Egghead]

: S Tier Side B, for sure.

-Can Recover
-Amazing Command Grab
-Amazing approach
-Does great damage and has good reach, comes out relatively fast to
-Diddy's way of doing a sex kick basically by using Side B pressing A
-Gimping novelity usage

I suspect it's pretty much the best Side B in the game

It is a very good recovery move for diddy but having a command grab is not an S-tier-attribute as its cool down will certainly be punished more than the reward of landing one. For approach, it is a 5050 that has higher risk than reward. It being a sex-kick is useful but not enough to warrant an s-tier placement. Finally, I must agree that it is a pretty sick gimping tool.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It is a very good recovery move for diddy but having a command grab is not an S-tier-attribute as its cool down will certainly be punished more than the reward of landing one. For approach, it is a 5050 that has higher risk than reward. It being a sex-kick is useful but not enough to warrant an s-tier placement. Finally, I must agree that it is a pretty sick gimping tool.

Please get out of here with this nonsense.

Monkey Flip is one of the best special moves in Smash history.

The utility of this move is insane.

You are correct that no one attribute it has warrants an S tier placement, but it has so many uses in neutral, trap situations, recovery and getting out of disadvantage situations that with all that combined it is EASILY an S tier move.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Monkey flip is amazing, definitely S-tier.
A fast flying wavebouncing command grab that can be turned into an attack, I mean, really?
What even competes?

Samus homing missile is F-tier material. Worst projectile in the game.
Absurd 60 frame cooldown, 20 frame startup (anyone can react to it, even grandpa), unsafe on HIT let's ignore block, cut out of the air by every hitbox in the entire game, no associated movement options like b-reverse or wave-bounce, doesn't home worth a damn, completely fails at everything a projectile should do.
It's literally garbage.
Super missiles are E-tier in that the combos off of it are easy and wreck newbs, but has all the same problems of a non-zoning projectile.

Late to the party but I'm surprised Samus d-air got a "C" it's D or F class material. Slow as tar, no priority as hurtbox = hitbox and one of the hardest moves to land in neutral as the size of htibox combined with Samus' short hop means the already abysmal 19 frame meteor is more like 40 frames to react to if you're trying to hit a smaller target.
It requires training, timing skill and/or you eat a buttload of endlag just for trying to hit the auto-cancel window vs something as "small" as mario when he's just standing there.
And Sakurai's brilliance shines brightly by including a techable meteor ground spike. Brilliant, just brilliant design.

 

[Nah]

Really the only side B that really competes with Monkey Flip is Afterburner Kick.

edit: and like maybe Spin Dash

 

[FamilyTeam]

Since we are briefly discussing Side Specials again,

I was able to KO a Mario at 98% with DB Forward with Lucina,
he was a bit offstage but it was nothing that just doing the move close to the ledge wouldn't also do.
It was only the final hit, as well, so if it was the whole cycle it could've KO'd even earlier.
I'm posting this because some people seem to have it in their heads Lucina can't kill or something like that.

 

[Egghead]

Please get out of here with this nonsense.

Monkey Flip is one of the best special moves in Smash history.

The utility of this move is insane.

You are correct that no one attribute it has warrants an S tier placement, but it has so many uses in neutral, trap situations, recovery and getting out of disadvantage situations that with all that combined it is EASILY an S tier move.

Now that I rethink and see all these facts, I agree, but was it really necessary to be all"cool" and start by saying that I gave out nonsense. Also, in regards to the second line, shine is an example of a superior move.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Monkey flip is amazing, definitely S-tier.
A fast flying wavebouncing command grab that can be turned into an attack, I mean, really?
What even competes?

Samus homing missile is F-tier material. Worst projectile in the game.
Absurd 60 frame cooldown, 20 frame startup (anyone can react to it, even grandpa), unsafe on HIT let's ignore block, cut out of the air by every hitbox in the entire game, no associated movement options like b-reverse or wave-bounce, doesn't home worth a damn, completely fails at everything a projectile should do.
It's literally garbage.
Super missiles are E-tier in that the combos off of it are easy and wreck newbs, but has all the same problems of a non-zoning projectile.

Late to the party but I'm surprised Samus d-air got a "C" it's D or F class material. Slow as tar, no priority as hurtbox = hitbox and one of the hardest moves to land in neutral as the size of htibox combined with Samus' short hop means the already abysmal 19 frame meteor is more like 40 frames to react to if you're trying to hit a smaller target.
It requires training, timing skill and/or you eat a buttload of endlag just for trying to hit the auto-cancel window vs something as "small" as mario when he's just standing there.
And Sakurai's brilliance shines brightly by including a techable meteor ground spike. Brilliant, just brilliant design.

Literally every meteor apart from Ganon's dair is techable on the ground. Also her dair autocancels as well as combos way later than utilt on the ground. Sure it's not probably better than C or D, but it's got some uses you're ignoring.

Back on topic, Witch Time is broke, of course, along with bouncing fish. Those two should be S, dunno about anything else.

 

[SJMistery]

I'm posting this because some people seem to have it in their heads Lucina can't kill or something like that.

Wasn't MARTH the one that couldn't kill reliably with Dancing Blade? If I remember right, a much more lethal Up Smash and Dancing Blade (and Ikai Counter, if customs are allowed) are the main avantages Lucina has over Marth

 

[FamilyTeam]

Wasn't MARTH the one that couldn't kill reliably with Dancing Blade? If I remember right, a much more lethal Up Smash and Dancing Blade (and Ikai Counter, if customs are allowed) are the main avantages Lucina has over Marth

You'd be surprised how many people don't know or just refuse to know this. It's easier to just label Lucina as a character that can't kill and leave it at that from what I noticed.
Marth's KOs quite well if you can set up for the tipper (which should be harder than it currently is but people outright don't want to mix up their DI/SDI on that move) but Lucie's ain't KOing that much later.