Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[DunnoBro]

You are correct that no one attribute it has warrants an S tier placement, but it has so many uses in neutral, trap situations, recovery and getting out of disadvantage situations that with all that combined it is EASILY an S tier move.

Pretty much this. Just because a move isn't the best in a single aspect, doesn't mean it can't still be absurd when considering all it's other utility.

 

[TriTails]

I... didn't even know DB could kill reliably. I mean, I play Marth and I get tippers pretty consistently and I have never killed below 110% maybe even 120%.

3DS blastzones I suppose.

I think the idea that Lucina can't kill is because unlike Marth, her F-tilt and F-air (Dunno about B-air) don't kill. Those two moves play a big part on their jabs, and the reason Marth is up there is because of his jab. Marth can outright kill you in neutral off a tipper F-tilt. Can't say the same for Lucina.

Although, Lucina's F-smash with rage is def one of the most hillarious thing about her killing power. That move is strong af lol.

---

I feel as Doc's Down-B is at least B. It's a pretty good move IMO.

It edgeguards while covering the 2-frame. That's already pretty good. The angle it sends people at is semi-spike angle, and this move kills.

Also, unlike Cyclone, you don't need Mach 4 mashing speed just to get it to rise. In case you miss, this move is not too horribly laggy and shouldn't get you punished often.

As a recovery move itself... it's meh. Getting caught is dangerous, but it loses to disjoints, hard. Due to Doc's bad recovery, you can't recover super low like Luigi can to avoid gimps, therefore putting you in a dangerous position overall if they manage to snipe your end lag, since you're probably hovering in the middle height of the stage.

Any Doc mains can add in more. I don't play him as often as I used to (I cannot comprehend his advantage state lol) and I'm just remembering things off the top of my head.

 

[Fenny]

Wasn't MARTH the one that couldn't kill reliably with Dancing Blade? If I remember right, a much more lethal Up Smash and Dancing Blade (and Ikai Counter, if customs are allowed) are the main avantages Lucina has over Marth

Lucina can definitely KO more consistently with it than Martha, but Marth can set up tippers with it as it is - problem with that being that it requires tighter timing a lot of the time to prevent the opponent from getting out

 

[Fenny]

3DS blastzones I suppose.

It is, and it's silly lol

 

[FamilyTeam]

I... didn't even know DB could kill reliably. I mean, I play Marth and I get tippers pretty consistently and I have never killed below 110% maybe even 120%.

3DS blastzones I suppose.

I think the idea that Lucina can't kill is because unlike Marth, her F-tilt and F-air (Dunno about B-air) don't kill. Those two moves play a big part on their jabs, and the reason Marth is up there is because of his jab. Marth can outright kill you in neutral off a tipper F-tilt. Can't say the same for Lucina.

Although, Lucina's F-smash with rage is def one of the most hillarious thing about her killing power. That move is strong af lol.

Non-stale Fair KOs more than people give it credit for. The only move Lucina really loses is FTilt, but then again, she kinda gains Up Tilt, because fresh Up Tilt can KO a whole lot of people below 130% if you intercept an aerial and it only gets better if you do so on a platform and/or with rage. I KO'd a Cloud once at 100% like that on BF's lower platform. Lucina's Bair is a tad crazy, near the ledge it doesn't KO that much later than your average FSmash, so 2-framing somebody's ledge get up option is excellent.
Also, Jab conversions are less true than people think. MKLeo goes for many Tipper Jab>FTilts before he actually KOs anyone with it in case you guys haven't noticed.

Since we were talking about Lucina's DB, watch this:

Lucina can reliably hit the entire Dancing Blade Forward cycle without even having to resort to chasing DI or worrying about much else until KO% on quite a few characters, including (not limited to);

It will also work until KO% but with stricter timing:

You can still KO with the entire cycle against others but it gets rather complicated.
This is why you don't stale DB>F.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Literally every meteor apart from Ganon's dair is techable on the ground. Also her dair autocancels as well as combos way later than utilt on the ground. Sure it's not probably better than C or D, but it's got some uses you're ignoring.

Not true. There are plenty of meteors that are un-techable, Ryu's being the absolute best, but you can go down the list. To further the point Falco's D-air was patched to go from techable to un-techable so it's specifically introduced as a "balance" aspect of the character.
Take a short character like Pika, pick any character and input a shorthop and immediately d-air to try and hit Pika. There are only 2 characters in the game that will miss, Ryu, who has a fantastic d-air, and Samus, who has a terrible d-air. With Samus you have to rise and then come down and to hit the autocancel window in the middle of a fight with a skilled opponent is hard. And this isn't just Pika, there are tons, and tons of crouching animations from taller characters where this move just whiffs. It's like a 40 frame move in neutral out of a shorthop. It's really awful - designed to be awful.
I would take Palutena's frame 10 single active hitbox any day.

If Monkey flip and ABK are S-tier, I would say Dancing blade is likely A-tier.
Corrin Dragon Lunge is either S or A, I would say S, too much utility, too many options to be A-level.

On the other end of the spectrum if Samus side b is F, probably my vote for E would be MK drill rush. It's basically a last ditch recovery move but doesn't have much else going for it as a frame 26, 1 point of damage move. It's just, bad.

 

[SJMistery]

It may be the 3DS but, every time I receive a Dancing Blade, my Greninja can escape most of the time via Shadow Sneak...

 

[ARGHETH]

It may be the 3DS but, every time I receive a Dancing Blade, my Greninja can escape most of the time via Shadow Sneak...

Well yeah, but that's because it's shadow sneak.

 

[TDK]

Really the only side B that really competes with Monkey Flip is Afterburner Kick.

edit: and like maybe Spin Dash

Did you all forget about Pin or something?

 

[FamilyTeam]

It may be the 3DS but, every time I receive a Dancing Blade, my Greninja can escape most of the time via Shadow Sneak...

It's not gonna help you if you're in hitstun throughou the whole thing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It may be the 3DS but, every time I receive a Dancing Blade, my Greninja can escape most of the time via Shadow Sneak...

Stop posting.

 

[Nah]

Did you all forget about Pin or something?

It's kind of hard to forget Instant Pin when you play the character

Pin is good but it doesn't quite compare to Monkey Flip/ABK, which are multi-functional tools with less commitment that don't lose to shield, and more importantly have uses outside of advantage state. Pin is still clearly no less than A tier, but it's not deserving of S tier either.

Witch Time is a similar case. It's arguably the best counter in the game and still not worse than A tier, but at the end of the day it's still a counter and when you treat it as one, it's not as ridiculous as people make it out to be. The actually busted buttons on Bayonetta are the combination of Witch Twist+side-B.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

It's not gonna help you if you're in hitstun throughou the whole thing.

He's referring to Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel. The only criteria for Greninja is that the move must be low enough on knockback that it does not induce tumble, and it must knock him in the air for a certain amount of frames (as in, sakurai angles with low knockback and 0° angles don't work). Every hit of dancing blade should meet this criteria except the finishers. There's just so many sourspots you'd need to check between Marth and Lucina and greninja has no control over what attacks his opponent uses. Some possibilities allow Greninja a free hit with the sneak before Marth/Lucina can shield, most make him miss and land behind them. It's really a mixup tool, one he can really use since fast fallers have the most trouble escaping with just DI and mashing options. But like most SSHC possibilities, an aware opponent can still use moves that can be escaped as a mind game. By having Greninja sneak behind you, you can get a much harsher punish as Marth/Lucina can act long before him if they successfully guess when he escaped.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

's down B is one of the better ones in his game. Lots of situations where it's useful

 

[Vyrnx]

I'm interested in how something like Rest is going to be rated.

It's a frame 1 intangible super kill move. If we're looking at the move's complete potential, Rest makes Jiggs' powershield and spotdodge really dangerous, allows her to severely punish rolls, and she can rest through any hitbox that also has a hurtbox. There's a pretty good Jiggs in my area and he caught onto my shad bairs and just rested straight through my bair. And there are things like resting a Bayo ABK or resting in the middle of Mario dair.

If we apply the same logic we've been applying to other moves, "Every character would rather have X move instead of their own Y move," then Rest becomes really good. Jiggs is a character whose entire design seems to attempt to compensate for Rest. If Rest were actually just teleported over to another character with high ground speed, high jumps, better weight, moves that combo, etc then Rest would be totally busted. Then again, I'm not sure if that type of scenario should be considered since the design team would never give a character like that Rest without compensating. But if the design team has to compensate so much for Rest, does that mean Rest is amazing? I'm thinking yes. Look at the game where they didn't compensate for it.

 

[Game7a1]

I'm interested in how something like Rest is going to be rated.

It's a frame 1 intangible super kill move. If we're looking at the move's complete potential, Rest makes Jiggs' powershield and spotdodge really dangerous, allows her to severely punish rolls, and she can rest through any hitbox that also has a hurtbox. There's a pretty good Jiggs in my area and he caught onto my shad bairs and just rested straight through my bair. And there are things like resting a Bayo ABK or resting in the middle of Mario dair.

If we apply the same logic we've been applying to other moves, "Every character would rather have X move instead of their own Y move," then Rest becomes really good. Jiggs is a character whose entire design seems to attempt to compensate for Rest. If Rest were actually just teleported over to another character with high ground speed, high jumps, better weight, moves that combo, etc then Rest would be totally busted. Then again, I'm not sure if that type of scenario should be considered since the design team would never give a character like that Rest without compensating. But if the design team has to compensate so much for Rest, does that mean Rest is amazing? I'm thinking yes. Look at the game where they didn't compensate for it.

Just to add onto Rest, here are some facts about the move.

• Hits from Frame 2 to Frame 4, but intangible from Frame 1 to Frame 27 (so about half a second)
• Thanks to the intangibilty, it can work as a counter and a combo breaker (as mentioned with Mario's D-air).
• Cooldown is about 4 seconds. Enough time for her to recover from a Star or Screen KO
• The Flower it inflicts does a maximum of 39% (if the opponent does nothing), but usually, the opponent will receive 15% in a match
• Rage Rest is dumb thanks to Rage affecting both Base and Growth Knockback. It usually has a BKB of 100 and a KBG of 66; with full Rage (if she ever gets it), that goes up to 115 BKB and ~76 KBG. As a reference point, unraged Rest KOs Jigglypuff, Mario, and King Dedede at 38%, 53%, and 73% respectively on FD (+2% since I may be off a bit). With Max Rage, those numbers go down to 18%, 29%, and 40% respectively (+2%). Of course, she's rarely going to hit 150% in a match, but it's something to think about when she's at, say, 90%.
• Thanks to how vertical KOs work, on-stage Resting is risker because of a potential Blast Zone KOs, but Off-Stage Resting is slightly less risker thanks to a potential Blast Zone KOs (meaning she gets KO'd after her opponent). It's all up to chance, though (unless you're on Wii U Duck Hunt because then it's only Blast Zone KOs).
• There are a few moves that combo into Rest. (Late) F-air and Sing being the most infamous. Up-Tilt, Up-Air, D-air, and footstools on some characters are other such moves. So it isn't a read-only move like Sing.

That's about it. Don't know where to put it, but it's in the upper-echelon of Down-B moves.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Oil Panic shouldn't be too high. When against characters with energy and explosive projectiles (sans a couple items and moves like Mechakoopa and Missle), he abosrbs them and can deal between 18% to 60% (63% with freshness included). He gets about 25 frames of intangibility (Frame 2 to 24) when absorbing, but is vulnerable for ~50 frames when not full and 14 frames when full. It also hits frame 1 to frame 6. Like Rest, it has a couple moves combing into it, mainly Fire and D-Throw. It also has recovery potential in the form of Bucket Jumping, aiding G&W's already good recovery better. It's best as to mix-up his recovery. Bucket Jumping is only possible with a non-full bucket. But outside of that, it doesn't have much utility.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ike and Roy don't have uses for their counters though. They can't be used to edgeguard, they can't be used to recover, they can't be used to start combos, they can't be used to keep opponents in juggles, and they sure as hell can't be used in neutral. At least Lucario, Greninja, and Little Mac can use their counters for recovery mixups and zone breaking.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Witch Time is a similar case. It's arguably the best counter in the game and still not worse than A tier, but at the end of the day it's still a counter and when you treat it as one, it's not as ridiculous as people make it out to be. The actually busted buttons on Bayonetta are the combination of Witch Twist+side-B.

Witch time gets such ridiculous reward off of a single read. Ultimately, it's even more rewarding than landing a combo starter, since you can do those ANYWAYS or take a stock as early as 30% (or earlier, if you can land a dair). It's mere existence skyrockets her disadvantage state and makes it dangerous to use hitboxes at all, even if you think you know they're gonna use it. I think it's perfectly fitting of S tier.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Just to add the only achilles heel I've seen to witch time is things like zard's flamethrower or bowser's fire breath. But that's only because if bayonetta is hit in witchtime the move fails but be honest who's going to use Zard or Bowser in super high level tourney play and besides there's bat within to cancel that out anyways. It's super broken.

 

[Fenny]

Just to add the only achilles heel I've seen to witch time is things like zard's flamethrower or bowser's fire breath. But that's only because if bayonetta is hit in witchtime the move fails but be honest who's going to use Zard or Bowser in super high level tourney play and besides there's bat within to cancel that out anyways. It's super broken.

Uh, ANTi and Nairo?

 

[san.]

Ike and Roy don't have uses for their counters though. They can't be used to edgeguard, they can't be used to recover, they can't be used to start combos, they can't be used to keep opponents in juggles, and they sure as hell can't be used in neutral. At least Lucario, Greninja, and Little Mac can use their counters for recovery mixups and zone breaking.

Ike has uses for his counter. It's used primarily as an edgeguard due to the strong minimum % knockback and above-average duration. It's also used occasionally as a stall. It's not the best option most of the time onstage, but it's mixup-viable since it's one of the stronger counters, and the opponent will be thinking of ways to counterplay grab, jab, dtilt, and aerials.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I was bored early in the morning, with nobody online for me to play against, so I decided to screw around with bots to test a few things regarding walking.
This happened:

Yes, I know this clearly was no DI on the bots' part, but DB was also quadruple stale.
Yet another reason why you don't stale DB>Forward.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Uh, ANTi and Nairo?

Right forgot about those two sorry, but does anyone have video of them using flamethrower/fire breath to cancel out witch time when going up against bayonetta?

 

[Galaxeon]

Witch Time is a similar case. It's arguably the best counter in the game and still not worse than A tier, but at the end of the day it's still a counter and when you treat it as one, it's not as ridiculous as people make it out to be. The actually busted buttons on Bayonetta are the combination of Witch Twist+side-B.

But it is ridiculous though. In most cases (enemy on the ground/platform, countering a move without armor), a fresh Witch Time means either : 30/40%+ combo, or if the opponent is on the middle of the stage, death at around 60%, or if the opponent is near the ledge, death at around 30%. Just for one single read. With some bat within frames after the window of the counter, to save you from some punishes if you mistimed your move. And a non-freshed witchtime still means death at early precents.
The whole game versus Bayonetta requires the opponent to constantly think about what she can get from a Witch Time and when to commit or not to commit. This is ridiculous
Also the fact it cancels any landing lag after using specials is pretty dumb imo. Not all characters can punish the witch time in time depending on where the combo ends.
And the refresh time is really not that long. And it can edgeguard.

Bayonetta's Side B is extremely versatile but the only thing excellent about it is that it's three moves in one. Each is individually not so amazing for various reasons. Ofc it does suit her kit very well overall, obviously.

I'm a bit confused though that this thread is discussing both Side Bs and Down Bs at the same time, we should focus on one.

 

[ARGHETH]

I'm a bit confused though that this thread is discussing both Side Bs and Down Bs at the same time, we should focus on one.

People are coming in talking about side Bs because of the title, and because side B discussion was never officially wrapped up. Both of these are because Funbot hasn't replied in a while.
We've decided on our own to talk about down Bs because discussion in side Bs dried up for a while.

 

[FamilyTeam]

But it is ridiculous though. In most cases (enemy on the ground/platform, countering a move without armor), a fresh Witch Time means either : 30/40%+ combo, or if the opponent is on the middle of the stage, death at around 60%, or if the opponent is near the ledge, death at around 30%. Just for one single read. With some bat within frames after the window of the counter, to save you from some punishes if you mistimed your move. And a non-freshed witchtime still means death at early precents.
The whole game versus Bayonetta requires the opponent to constantly think about what she can get from a Witch Time and when to commit or not to commit. This is ridiculous
Also the fact it cancels any landing lag after using specials is pretty dumb imo. Not all characters can punish the witch time in time depending on where the combo ends.
And the refresh time is really not that long. And it can edgeguard.

Bayonetta's Side B is extremely versatile but the only thing excellent about it is that it's three moves in one. Each is individually not so amazing for various reasons. Ofc it does suit her kit very well overall, obviously.

I'm a bit confused though that this thread is discussing both Side Bs and Down Bs at the same time, we should focus on one.

If only the OP would actually come back and do the final Side Special list, then this confusion wouldn't be happening.

 

[Nah]

Witch time gets such ridiculous reward off of a single read. Ultimately, it's even more rewarding than landing a combo starter, since you can do those ANYWAYS or take a stock as early as 30% (or earlier, if you can land a dair). It's mere existence skyrockets her disadvantage state and makes it dangerous to use hitboxes at all, even if you think you know they're gonna use it. I think it's perfectly fitting of S tier.

But it is ridiculous though. In most cases (enemy on the ground/platform, countering a move without armor), a fresh Witch Time means either : 30/40%+ combo, or if the opponent is on the middle of the stage, death at around 60%, or if the opponent is near the ledge, death at around 30%. Just for one single read. With some bat within frames after the window of the counter, to save you from some punishes if you mistimed your move. And a non-freshed witchtime still means death at early precents.
The whole game versus Bayonetta requires the opponent to constantly think about what she can get from a Witch Time and when to commit or not to commit. This is ridiculous
Also the fact it cancels any landing lag after using specials is pretty dumb imo. Not all characters can punish the witch time in time depending on where the combo ends.
And the refresh time is really not that long. And it can edgeguard.

Bayonetta's Side B is extremely versatile but the only thing excellent about it is that it's three moves in one. Each is individually not so amazing for various reasons. Ofc it does suit her kit very well overall, obviously.

I'm a bit confused though that this thread is discussing both Side Bs and Down Bs at the same time, we should focus on one.

Yes I'm aware that Bayo ****s out huge amounts of damage and kills--everyone is, that's kind of her thing.

But she still has to Witch Time you in the first place. She still has to read you to get it. You can lessen the threat of it through what I'd think would be relatively simple things like grabs and baits and multihit moves and not slamming buttons like an idiot.

For specifically this bit:

Bayonetta's Side B is extremely versatile but the only thing excellent about it is that it's three moves in one. Each is individually not so amazing for various reasons

see this:

Just because a move isn't the best in a single aspect, doesn't mean it can't still be absurd when considering all it's other utility.

Anyway I'm not saying that it's not a good move, it is a very good one, it just doesn't make the S-tier distinction to me as it's still a counter and so has the flaws of one. It's not quite the world destroying button it's often made out to be.

 

[Deleted member]

Should we move on to up specials?

 

[FamilyTeam]

Anyway I'm not saying that it's not a good move, it is a very good one, it just doesn't make the S-tier distinction to me as it's still a counter and so has the flaws of one. It's not quite the world destroying button it's often made out to be.

I think you're giving people way too much credit thinking they won't just find it easier to moan about how borked the move is rather than potentially seeing the downsides.

 

[ARGHETH]

Should we move on to up specials?

But we haven't even started down specials yet... We've already done an up special list that I can link once I'm not on my phone.

 

[Nemesis561]

Someone should make a rough draft on ranking down B moves, and then we can pick it apart before moving on. Funbot is literally never on.

Or maybe this thread can be closed down and a new one started by someone who is more a active? Just thinking out loud

 

[FamilyTeam]

Said person won't be me. I'm just waiting on a few things then I'm taking my leave off this site for a good time, probably forever.

My contribution to the Down Special discussion will be that Mario's FLUDD is A tier material, if not S, and Marcina's counter is an alright counter. Lasts decent amount of time, useful for edgeguarding and doing regular counter shenanigans

 

[ARGHETH]

I made a thread.

 

[SJMistery]

Stop posting.

why I should? My comments are as polite as possible, and they are true, the Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel removes Greninja as a potential Dancing Blade target.

 

[Egghead]

why I should? My comments are as polite as possible, and they are true, the Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel removes Greninja as a potential Dancing Blade target.

Your comments are definitely polite, keep on posting as much as you want. As for the other guy...

 

[Routa]

EL is known to be very straightforward when it comes to speaking what is in his mind. You get used to it.
Anyways I believe that his post was meant to attack the "I use 3DS part". While 3DS version might seems similar it still does difference from the Wii U version quite a bit. Also the 3DS part can also imply that your knowledge of the game comes from FG rather than from offline play. There is a reason why FG heroes and 3DS Warriors are not taken seriously in discussions like these.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

I can only talk for my main, so...

Leaf Shield is alright. It isn't something extra-special, but getting free hitboxes is always nice. It can net you easier grabs if you let a leaf stun an opponent, and its huge size allows it to eat most projectiles.
Its main downside is that while it is active, you don't have access to your other moves, would they be regular attacks or special moves. You are still able to use any hold item or to pick one up and you have your full mobility + Shield & grab, so you aren't exactly a sitting duck.
That and sometimes the leaves clank with other hitboxes, letting you get out of bad situations or getting comboed by a jab. Or even worse, you could trigger a counter (most of them can be shielded tho).

It's worth a spot between B-D tiers. Your choice.

 

[TDK]

I wouldn't mind redoing the up special list since even I don't agree with it at this point >~>

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

: Doc's Down-B is up there for better Down Specials. B minimum.

• It covers rolls, spot dodges, and it's a great tool for edgeguarding as it covers a lot of options. It either knocks the opponent pretty far or semi spikes the opponent (hard to do this deliberately, but it happens by accident a lot, at least in my experience).
• It tends to beat out other moves (except really disjointed moves), which makes it a nice move to throw off your opponents. It can be B-reversed/Wavebounced which helps him mix up his landings.
• It doesn't go very high but it does not have a ridiculous mashing requirement (around 5 well timed button presses should get you to max height).

It has some limitations though.

• It has noticeable end lag, so it can be whiff punished if you're too predictable with it.
• It doesn't do a lot of damage either, so the reward for landing this move is a bit weaker than you would think.

: Fairly overrated. Probably B minimum as well.

• It's only dumb against characters with very exploitable recoveries (Ike, Kirby, Ness, Little Mac, etc.). It's not great against people who recover low.
• The pushback is nice but the move is really slow so you have to anticipate whether your opponent is trying to approach you.
• The ability to cancel into Shield and then cancel into Jump/Jump-Cancelled Moves gives him safe ways to charge it.

: Did no one talk about this character yet? This move is fantastic. It's Top 5 at least.

• Charge time is a bit long, but he can cancel out of it with Shield AND Neutral B (which doesn't trigger air dodge). And combined with his run speed, he becomes obnoxious for people who want to play aggressively.
• His other special moves become pretty good with Fully Charged Limit (especially Side B).
• Fully Charged Limit Cloud gets faster too, so Cloud can camp harder.

I wanted to say some stuff about Mewtwo, but I'm not really sure what to think about his Down-B.

 

[SJMistery]

EL is known to be very straightforward when it comes to speaking what is in his mind. You get used to it.
Anyways I believe that his post was meant to attack the "I use 3DS part". While 3DS version might seems similar it still does difference from the Wii U version quite a bit. Also the 3DS part can also imply that your knowledge of the game comes from FG rather than from offline play. There is a reason why FG heroes and 3DS Warriors are not taken seriously in discussions like these.

Uh, okay. I hope he gets to think around a bit tough. But not everyone can afford a WiiU, especially now that it will have around 6 months of utility until Switch overtakes it; and what I say is mostly what I see when looking up iStudying's videos, after testing it on training mode over a dozen times, and after making sure I am not the only who thinks it.

I mostly suck as a player for now, and I know it and am not shy to admit it; but that does not mean EL should go on and take potshots at me. There is no need for him to rub it on my face.