Regarding top tier, I find Shulk to be the sole choice for S tier. With an A tie starting off with
before adding more. I do think
should also be considered for A, but I know they're a harder sell and I like talking about bad moves primarily.
Also with
there's no reasonable criteria to rank this move. I recommend his own N/A tier. Without neutral B, Olimar would not function as a character, particularly after losing the first stock. There's nothing to critique with the move. It takes 8 frames to pluck a pikmin, there's a specific order in appearance of pikmin, and it has no application from the air so it plays a 47 frame failure animation. Furthermore, if you attempt to pluck after reaching the pikmin limit, that animation from the ground is 32 frames. It's not bad or good, but without it, the character doesn't function. I realize that sentence sounds similar to Shulk's Arts, but with Shulk, you can still play the game without an Art equipped.
My immediate bottom tier is
, with Ganon being the best of these four.
: Rollout is awful. You need to charge up for at least 40 frames for a hitbox at all. 55-60 frames for a full charge. When you do hit, it's 14% damage and the move has very little chance of killing, despite the generously low launch angle. The knockback lags behind Fsmash and naturally doesn't come close to Rest. Jigglypuff goes into a special lag state after hitting an opponent. Assuming level ground, the endlag comes out to 72 frames. Jigglypuff can't let herself be so open to attack unless the move has as much reward as Rest. She can grab the ledge while rolling when used offstage, but there's a new issue should you use the move for recovery. If the opponent sits at the ledge with shield up, she'll collide with them and fall to her death. This is also true if they willingly go offstage to body block her. She needs to aim perfectly to be high enough to grab the ledge, but low enough to not touch the opponent. And if they know about this gimp opportunity, they won't give her that chance as they position themselves to get hit offstage or at the ledge.
: Falcon Punch is not only very unsafe with its 53 startup and 56 endlag, the reward on hit is only slightly stronger than his own, uncharged Fsmash. It would only kill about 10% earlier in a quick comparison test I'd ran. I also believe the Fsmash has a slight edge in range. The knockback is marginally better when reversed, but also marginally worse if performed from the air (note that performing the move from the air and landing before the hit comes out turns the move into the grounded version). Reversing Falcon Punch adds 8 startup and 3% more damage. Endlag is unchanged. This sort of move is ideal only for shield break scenarios, but I notice that a fully charged Fsmash is considerally better for killing than reversed Falcon Punch. So you'd only choose falcon punch in a shield break scenario where they have too little damage for either move to kill, so the reversed Punch would get out 2% more damage and not stale Fsmash. The lack of base knockback is a critical error in the move's design that even makes the attack punishable after you're hit at 0%. This move has so little utility for Falcon's moveset that I have to rate it as the worst neutral B, rivaled only by jigglypuff.
: Clown Cannon has 43 startup and 37 endlag. The full charged version has respectable damage and knockback on par with other charge shot moves, but no way to cancel or store the move. So of course it faces stiff competition from reflectors and just holding shield. When used offstage, the cannonball eventually falls, resulting in some edgeguard capability, but is unlikely to ever work with how slow the projectile is and how long it takes to launch. The move that best compares to this is Greninja's water shuriken, but water shuriken is miles better in startup, endlag, and projectile speed. While also allowing for further pressure should they shield the full charged variety (greninja can run up and grab them as they block the multihit and can only dodge roll to safety). When not engaging his opponent directly, Bowser jr is better off spawning a mechakoopa every day of the week.
: Warlock Punch is so much better than Falcon Punch. In strict comparison, WP has more damage and knockback, super armor for most of the startup, and 9 less endlag. It has 70 startup, but with moves this slow, you have to embrace the recklessness at some point. Reversing also adds 10 startup compared to Falcon's 8. When people block the punch, they expect to have enough time to put down shield and get a free smash attack, but it's simply not the case when they only have 21 (or 17 when reversed) frames, most of which must be spent walking forward since you've been pushed so far away. What you really only get is a dash grab/attack and not much else with most characters. It also bizarrely gets much stronger from the air, but Ganondorf cannot naturally jump high enough that it takes 70 frames to land. Plus you lose super armor with the air version. As for how the knockback compares to other moves – very good. For a shield break scenario, you generally only need 10-15% damage on the opponent for reversed WP to kill, and you should absolutely spend time walking into them so they get closer to the ledge. Fully charged Fsmash and Utilt just don't compare in knockback and damage, so the niche is undisputed with Ganon's moveset. But that niche is pretty much all he has, so it's hard to sell this move as a not bottom tier option.
The Bad but Not Bottom Tier Bad Tier is harder to make. What comes to mind for me immediately is
and debatably
. Cloud would be there too, but our standard set during Up Special discussion is that limit and non limit versions are considered. And by that standard, Little Mac's straight lunge and KO punch must be together.
- flamebreath is a worse version of flamethrower. It has 23 frames of startup vs Zard's 20 and a FAF of 78 vs Zard's 71.
Also Flamebreath far flames don't cause knockback making it inferior at edgeguarding and less safe on shield when compared to flamethrower.
Flamebreath far hitboxes do deal more damege than flamethrower (1.2% vs 1%) but Zard's close flames deal more damage at 2% allowing the fliying lizard to reflect gordos.
Knockback does not dictate shieldstun, damage does. As for edgeguarding, yes and no. If Bowser's flames touch ground, they'll cause knockback for 90-95% of their travel path, and both characters have precisely the same range. Both versions of the move are being used at the ledge for safe, free damage as a 2 frame punish, since recoveries with a big hitbox can safely pass through the flames of either character, knockback or no. Bowser's move becomes a damaging windbox after about half the travel path when spewed into the air, which makes the opponent not get a refresh on their Up B by deliberately recovering into flames. But the only MU where this is absolutely preferred is with Ness and Lucas. The flames push them away into a position where it is impossible for the projectile to reach their bottom, an instant kill opportunity should they try to recover too close to the ledge.
Bowser's slower frame data and inability to reflect gordos are the the biggest cons, but not a tiers worth of difference if you ask me. Charizard's move is unquestionably more useful to him because Bowser has equally optimal answers for covering 2 frame ledge snaps and ledge options (Ftilt and Fortress respectively) that Charizard does not have. Furthermore, both moves have a critical weakness when the opponent blocks it. When close enough to physically move behind them, you can dodge roll through flames for a guaranteed punish. Largely unknown to the average player, but it seems to work without fail. Wherever these moves are placed, it should be in the same middle tier.
