Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[|RK|]

Kirby's usmash in C? I'd have thrown it at the end of b, considering the contenders. But ah well.

 

[Flamegeyser]

Well Pit's dsmash for S tier for sure. Combos, kills, and is wicked fast. Other S tiers should be Mac, ZSS, and probably MK.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's Dsmash: balls. Too slow (Frame 13 is bad, frame 32 for the second hit? Seriously?), too weak (14 damage is... okay but the knockback data sure ain't), too laggy (as laggy as Usmash at 71 FAF). 2nd hit is stronger (17 damage) but not only will you never land it... it has a late hitbox that's even worse than Usmash's sourspot (8 damage, lowered base knockback and an inferior angle? Whyyyyy?)

Never used, no use, only seen during missed inputs. Can't even be used to punish rolls. In the running for "worst Dsmash in the game".

 

[TheGoodGuava]

nah worst dsmash is G&W, the most unreliable move in the game

 

[Nocally]

The combination of the speed and power of Pikachu´s up-smash doesn't deserve to be the worst on a tier list, but whatever.

Down-smash is Pika´s worst smash:

Positives:
quick start-up
hits both sides
decent anti air
shrinks hurtbox

Negatives:
Bad FAF
weak Power
horrible on whiff and shield
doesn't really set-up into anything

the negatives outweighs the positives in this case, power-wise it's on the weaker side like Peach and Samus´s down-smashes.

 

[Goombo]

Spoiler: Up-Smash

Lol this list perfectly shows how much Smashboards just hates Pit and Pikachu.

 

[HoSmash4]

Broken dsmashes

Very good functional ones
(Witch time yes but it is very useful. most down smashes are worse than other smashes and generally used in case they cross up but you want to cover front as well.

Pit down smash is very good but when you look at its kill % and frame startup, recovery... Isn't it just a strong tilt?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Broken dsmashes

Very good functional ones
(Witch time yes but it is very useful. most down smashes are worse than other smashes and generally used in case they cross up but you want to cover front as well.

Pit down smash is very good but when you look at its kill % and frame startup, recovery... Isn't it just a strong tilt?

No little mac?

 

[HoSmash4]

No little mac?

Damn forgot about this guy... Instant S

 

[Mr. Johan]

I think Robin's is the strongest Dsmash in the game outside of aura'd out Lucario? Is there a chart listing out KO%s for Smash attacks somewhere?

At any rate, it can also function as a SH punisher of sorts since the hitbox starts above Robin, one of the few Dsmashes to do so. But Frame 16 startup ****ing blows and 57 FAF is no better.

Not the worst in the world, but certainly could have been better.

 

[ARGHETH]

I think Robin's is the strongest Dsmash in the game outside of aura'd out Lucario? Is there a chart listing out KO%s for Smash attacks somewhere?

It's weaker than Jr's, Ganondorf's second hit, Ike's second hit, Lucas' first hit, Luigi's sweetspotted second hit, aura Lucario's, Marth's sweetspotted second hit, Megaman's first hit, Mewtwo's, and Palutena's first hit.
(Note: all of this was done using a KB calc assuming both are at 100%. I haven't actually tested this out)
It's something like Ike>Megaman>Jr>Mewtwo>Ganondorf>Lucario>Marth>Luigi>Palutena>Lucas>Robin
They all kill at relatively the same %s, though.

 

[bc1910]

ZSS and Mewtwo have the best Dsmashes in the game. S-tier.

Ness for S or A.

Mac's is more like top of A. It's very solid all around but doesn't have the ridiculous utility in neutral that the other two have.

Sheik's was a contender for worst in the game but is probably Cish now, though I could still see it in D.

Greninja's is probably C, it's disjointed and good for ledge coverage (can 2frame) but it's too slow and laggy overall. Nothing special.

FWIW I don't think there are that many good Dsmashes in this game, especially compared to past entries in the series. Most of the newcomers have really laggy Dsmashes and many of the veterans have taken huge lag nerfs compared to Brawl.

Ok so finally got around to revamping the list, here is the final update for Up-Smash:

Spoiler: Up-Smash

Sorry don't have time to do a TL;DR rn, but a placed all the rises and drops in the last slots of the ranks to make it easier to see what changed.

Anyways, we will be moving on to the final smash attack in Down-Smash. Take a day to discuss and an initial list should be up for tomorrow (hopefully).

Mostly good, but there are some horrible placements here.

Pika's Usmash in D? Why? It's fairly strong, can combo into Thunder and gives him a much-needed killing option out of a run. C at worst and it's probably B. It's very similar to Yoshi's and Fox's, how can it be two entire tiers below them?

Bayo's Usmash in D? Just, what? We were discussing its possibility of being S-tier. Offers exceptional ledge coverage, easy kills through Witch Time and excellent range. A-tier.

To be honest I can only assume Pika/Bayo being in D is a mistake or typo.

Pit's in C is questionable and has already been discussed. B at least.

What is Corrin doing in C? His Usmash is garbage.

 

[Rizen]

Why do people think Mewtwo's Dsmash is so good? Sure it's powerful and decent on shield (-5 on shield drop) but it's slow, starting frame 21-22 and only hits on one side, something mewtwo has trouble with. Does it have some utility I'm not aware of?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Here's a very broad overview of my personal impressions:


Good dsmash:

Solid / Average / OK dsmash:

Bad / outclassed dsmash:

 

[Nah]

Why do people think Mewtwo's Dsmash is so good? Sure it's powerful and decent on shield (-5 on shield drop) but it's slow, starting frame 21-22 and only hits on one side, something mewtwo has trouble with. Does it have some utility I'm not aware of?

It's basically Meta Knight's Fsmash.

It has little endlag so it's one of very few smashes that is generally safe to throw out.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Mario's down smash comes out fast, has good coverage, can be comboed into, and is virtually unpunishable. However, it sucks in terms of kill power, and it only does a measly 10% in the front. It's definitely his worst smash attack, and probably one of Mario's moves that sees the least use, but it's not necessary a bad move. Low end of B tier would be a good place for it.

Luigi's is just straight up superior to Mario's because it has all of the speed and more power. A tier.

Rosalina's down smash is incredibly fast, has good range, and is her main GTFO option. The downside? It is weak, doing a piss poor 7% in the front. Most characters get more than that off a jab. Unlike most of her moveset, having Luma to assist doesn't really do much, because he kicks behind then in front, so he'll never synchronize with Rosalina. I'd say A tier, but only just.

Roy's down smash is a polarizing move. It comes out hella fast and is surprisingly strong for a down smash, but it has hefty ending lag that makes it unsafe to throw out. I think B tier.

Jigglypuff's down smash is... weird. Just looking at the move, you'd probably say it's complete ass, and you'd be mostly right. However, on characters with poor horizontal recoveries, this move is pretty deadly. I think situational is the right word for it. C tier.

Cloud's down smash is amazing and probably his best KO move that isn't up air or Cross Slash. I wish more down smashes were like this. S tier.

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's D-smash.

Hits during frames 14-16, FAf is 61, deals 16%, angles are 46 for the outer hitboxes and 33 for the inner ones, bkb is 40, kbg is 79 for the inner hitboxes and 85 for the outer ones. The hitbox is stupidly huge and pretty disjointed.

This thing is great at edgeguarding, it sends the opponents in a nice angle, reaches pretty far and packs quite a punch.

The move hits both sides at once making it decentish at catching rolls. Don't miss tho, that endlag is no joke.

So yeah it's good but nothing too crazy, i'm guessing B? Maaaaybe A depending on the rest of the list?

 

[Nemesis561]

Please make Wario's D-smash the worst one. Its so stupid, its literally unsafe on hit at lower percents because hes gotta keep doing the spinarooni (Booker T references FTW) animation for 5 years even though there is no longer a hitbox.... Doesnt kill very well at all, this move almost has no application..

Bowser jrs down smash is pretty bad but good for a roll read or something.... low tier but not super bottom tier honestly

 

[Deleted member]

's down smash is . . . preeeeetty bad. Probably around E tier.

Slow startup at frame 18 and is downright one of the the laggiest moves in the game (FAF of 83) with little reward to back it up. It's an alright "lazy" option I guess for ledge coverage and rolls, plus Buster down smash can shield lock opponents at the ledge and potentially break for shield for a devestating punish, but it's rather situational. Without Arts it can kill decently and it's a monster in Smash art but otherwise it's a move that you shouldn't commit to at all unless the situation truly calls for it. Up smash is a superior move for roll reads/ledge coverage anyway and tends to kill earlier.

 

[Poisonous]

Wario's dsmash is useless. I could go on a tirade about the move but is there a point? It's a bad move, most likely the worst dsmash or at the very least bottom 3.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Cloud's down smash is amazing and probably his best KO move that isn't up air or Cross Slash. I wish more down smashes were like this. S tier.

Isn't the second hit techable? Or am I misremembering?

 

[Rizen]

It's basically Meta Knight's Fsmash.

It has little endlag so it's one of very few smashes that is generally safe to throw out.

-5 on shield drop is good for a smash but MK and Ganon's F and Usmash respectively were +1. Those also had good coverage. Dsmashes usually hit around the character's lower half. Mewtwo's Dsmash only hitting in front is a nitch already covered by Fsmash. I consider that a significant downside along with the slow start, 2 active frames and lack of armor/intangibility (like Mac's). The power and shield saftey are good so it's A or B tier but not S tier imo.

 

[BunbUn129]

Here's a very broad overview of my personal impressions:


Good dsmash:

Solid / Average / OK dsmash:

Bad / outclassed dsmash:

MK's d smash probably fits better in the bad / outclassed group. D smashes are generally used for relieving pressure; MK's d smash has the quick start-up for that but its below-average range, low active frames, and comparatively high ending lag hurt it in that regard. That makes it bad. The move's fairly poor reward only worsens its utility.

It's also outclassed by at least one other move in each regard. D smash sends at a good angle for starting edge-guards; but dair and back throw serve that purpose while being safer. D smash's frame 4/5 (4 if you buffer it, otherwise 5) start-up makes it good OoS; but dair, grab, d tilt, and Shuttle Loop are roughly just as fast while being safer and/or more rewarding. D smash 2 is a pretty decent KO'ing option; but f smash, up smash, bair, and Shuttle Loop are all stronger, while being safer and/or stronger, with Shuttle Loop having notable confirms. I can't think of any situation MK would be in which I'd immediately say "d smash."

I put it in the second-lowest tier, with the only truly good trait being its start-up.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Zard's down smash is probably as useful as his up smash but not really. It doesn't have any sourspots for one it's range is actually great since the only time it's going to miss is if the opponent is in midair, hits on both sides at the same time but that's already been said, surprisingly the most powerful KB on the move is right where charizard stomps the ground, if an opponent is touching zard or is close to him the move sends them flying. And as previously mentioned it's excellent at ledgeguarding. I've shaved off an early stock or two with a well-timed down smash. I'd say B-rank at least due to endlag A tops due to power and range.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I love this move it's so good. One of the best moves at catching the two frame with its lingering hitbox at the ledge it's a large reason why the MU is not pure garbage (Its really easy to two frame her and often forces her to recover on stage allowing Ness to punish Up B's lag) It has great knock back and sends you at a awkward angle getting caught by this move at the ledge is death for just about everyone. It can cover all ledge options , the move strikes behind Ness first then moves forward, this is a great mind game to use against an opponent who is getting your timing down instead of turning around sometimes I'll stay with my front to the ledge and use the move catching opponents by surprise. It even works well to catch opponents landing from above since the hitbox travels a good distance on the ground


A in my opinion

 

[TDK]

has a pretty alright down smash. It's the weakest of his smashes in terms of killing potential, but comes out on frame 9 in front of him, so it's the fastest one. It also has the lowest FAF on all his smashes (Still relatively laggy), so it's his best one out of shield unless your opponent is above you. Despite having lower BKB/KBG than his other smashes, it's still fairly strong. Solid move overall, I'd give it B.

 

[Masonomace]

's Down smash is by no means great. The move entirely imo gets a C-tier or D rating from an overall look at frame data. But then I think about the move being actually used & can say that even with slow frame 18 startup for Hit 1 with 82 total frames for a great amount of endlag, this move still does the job just fine. Vanilla & Buster shield-lock with the sweet Blade Hit 1 hitbox uncharged for Hit 3 to spin right around to be a true shield-stun lock. This by design means you can break shields at ledge where characters cannot tumble fall off the ledge of a stage or platform. So with that said, here's what I do with Dsmash even if everyone's gonna rate it bottom tier:
https://gfycat.com/LightPerkyAnnelid
https://gfycat.com/CheerfulHorribleBlackfootedferret
https://gfycat.com/FearfulWaterloggedBluebottlejellyfish
https://gfycat.com/BowedDismalBluebreastedkookaburra
https://gfycat.com/ScarceWanBackswimmer ← This is when you perfect shield Hit 1 of Buster Dsmash & still lose because Buster Dsmash destroys this option

And that doesn't mean you have to be at ledge to break someone's shield. You can get inside someone's shield bubble with perfect-pivot or whatever means & break their shield on-stage. And because you're Shulk with Smash or Jump art, you can find a way to kill at even just the mid percents. If anyone wants to know or learn more about this move & how cheese it can be up-close or spaced with angles, check here.

EDIT: I'm surprised no one mentioned Shulk Down smash for kill rankings earlier. Smash art Dsmash is dumb-good-strong to the max. And the Sakurai Angle in Hit 1 makes it a 40° on grounded opponents. Dumb-good forreal.

 

[Kofu]

nah worst dsmash is G&W, the most unreliable move in the game

Nah it's okay. C Tier probably. It's slow to come out at frame 15 but has a decent FAF of 42. The sweetspot is rather strong, only slightly weaker at KOing than his USmash. It also has five active frames which allows it to catch certain defensive options. It also leads to amusing situations where the opponent falls on the hammers and dies.

I also fail to see how it's unreliable, the sweetspots are right where they look like they are.

Villager's DSmash is also decent. The first hit comes out on frame 8, and the move buries, which either means free damage or a kill at high percents (it works wonderfully with USmash for this purpose). Only 17 frames of cooldown after the second hit, too! And who can forget its jab lock kill combo?

 

[BSP]

Mario's down smash comes out fast, has good coverage, can be comboed into, and is virtually unpunishable.

Mario's Dsmash front hit is -23 on shield drop. You hit a shield with it, nearly every character in the game gets a free dash Usmash on you or worse. Luigi can block, dash up B Mario for Dsmashing his shield with the front hit for example. The move is far from un-punishable.

That being said the move is probably B tier at worst on the sole fact that it's a F5 move with KO power.

Anyways, I wouldn't go so far as to call Pac-Man's Dsmash bad, but it has very few pros over his Fsmash. It comes out at the same speed, but it does 3% less, has more lag (why...), and has less reach. The plus sides are simultaneously covering both sides of Pac-Man, hitting a tiny bit lower than Fsmash, having no sour spot, and launching opponents at a low angle. I would only use it if I think the opponent will be so close to me that Fsmash's sourspot will hit, I have to guess between right/left for a punish, or if I specifically want someone to be forced low offstage. It functions at the least, so I'd say solid C but it's nearly outclassed by his other two smash attacks.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hard to point out the worst Dsmashes. Marth/Lucina's got an endlag decrease to make it stand up to other generic front to back Dsmashes, players found an infinite with Villager's, And Gunner's connections issues aren't as consistent on the full cast as I thought.

But we still need to talk about it. Gunner's first hit can miss if she's too close, AND the second hit can miss if she connected the first from close range. Results vary depending on who she's fighting. Thin, human proportioned characters are the general culprits for the first issue while lightweight floaties cause the other issue. But on the other hand, the move has excellent range, good frame data and extremely good kill power. So I would pass on putting this in bottom tier. You get around the connection issues by using this move if they're far, and Dtilt if they're too close. Both are viable kill moves with the same startup. It's really comparable to Cloud's. More range and knockback to make up for more prevalent connection issues than his move has.

Isn't the second hit techable? Or am I misremembering?

Yes, though it requires Cloud to land the far hitbox of the first hit. The close hitbox does not deal enough knockback to induce tumble. And the victim has to be crouching. Crouching reduces the knockback to allow for a tech in front of cloud. I think DI downward also will work in general, but crouching makes the bigger difference, and implies you're holding down for that DI anyway. A tech in place would result in about 10 frame advantage as Cloud is finishing the animation for the move. These connection issues happen regardless of victim %, but I hesitate to say whether Cloud having rage would help or hinder the move.

Very very bad. If the attack could hit targets multiple times like Buster Shulk, then it would at least have shield break applications. And the damage and knockback stats don't allow for good kill potential. I think it compares best to his Ftilt than his other two smashes. 23 active hit frames is a lot, but Chomp is a far better answer for ledge coverage specifically. Same 8 frame startup, less endlag, head intangibility to beat ledge release aerials that don't involve a sword.

While I like it more than Wario's because it has respectable knockback (better than his own Fsmash), it has a frame 20 startup and cannot land all three hits on a blocking target. If it could, then it would not only have enough damage when fresh (or with a little charge) to break a full shield, and the shieldstun between hits would make it a true blockstring just like buster shulk. But Lucas can't have nice things, and each blast is just two frames long with the hitbox growing very slightly on the second and third hits.

And I fear this one might get overlooked for how good it can be:

Bizarrely hits low enough beneath the ledge to consistently catch two frame ledge snaps. 9 active hit frames, and extremely low endlag that trying for a Dsmash every time they grab the ledge still leaves you free to focus on their ledge options if you missed the timing. The problem is, like his other smashes, the pikmin have item priority. So if the person recovering has a hitbox that reaches above the ledge, or if they hold down to avoid grabbing the ledge to touch the pikmin, they can get past this move no problem and even hurt Olimar for trying. But that's definitely a MU specific concern.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Dsmash should be considered as one of Zelda's best moves. Combos from dtilt and dair depending on percents, good shield pressure following jab, great knockback angle, decent kill potential at ledge, and most importantly, actually good frame data. Not S tier like Little Mac's Dsmash, but very likely B or A tier.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Isn't the second hit techable? Or am I misremembering?

Now that you say that, I think the first hit is techable, but the chances of a person being able to react to it on time are slim.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

The problem with dsmash is it's crappy power and KB. Is it safe on whiff? yes. Can you combo it into the two moves (d-tilt and dair) yes but it's situational. In fact everything about dsmash is situational, people who use zelda typically skip the dsmash in favor of her much stronger and much higher KB forward and upsmash and for good reason dair is essentially crap, hard to hit with, massive sour spot that has essentially no KB so your timing needs to be pixel perfect just to pull it off, dtilt is ok but it's slow with lots of endlag. I wouldn't say dsmash is even close to A rank. B tops due to poor range, power, KB and situational use.

 

[Vyrnx]

has a bottom tier dsmash

 has the best

I believe could be S tier as well, amazing for two framing at the ledge and sends the opponent horizontally, and it has almost no lag. Although A tier might also be a pretty good suit.

S tier could end up being just Mac and ZSS or something along those lines.

I think has a pretty good dsmash honestly. At least not one of the worst.

has a fast and really powerful dsmash, it's not one of the best but it's a good move.

Seconding Pit's as A as well.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

"its one of Zelda's best moves!!!" most of Zelda's moves are **** though so what's your point? If it was a character like Fox who has a ton of amazing buttons than yeah sure that would be a valid argument but for a character as bad as Zelda?

 

[Rizen]

Zelda's Dsmash is B tier. It's a fast, clean GTFO and high % KO tool. Not much else.

Link's Dsmash, like all his smashes, starts decently fast, has good disjointed reach and hits hard but the 1st hit has a lot of lag on wiff. Although, the 2nd hit starts the same time as Mewtwo's and only has 6 frames more lag. The 2nd hit's low 30 degree angle is great for setting up gimps. A tier imo.

 

[Locke 06]

Lucina's Dsmash is the most outclassed normal in the game. Marth's isn't good either.

Gone are the days of Mikeneko tipper dsmash kills.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Bad / outclassed dsmash:

How is Villager's Down Smash bad exactly?

 

[Dig Dug]

I love Olimar's dsmash so much. Frame 10-18, FAF 39, covers both sides simultaneously, good range, and does 13/11/11/8/15 when sweetspotted. Occasionally, both hits can connect dealing an upwards of 30 percent uncharged if you're running two purples, though this is easier to do with a yellow due to their larger hitbox. It can bust open shields as a result if you get both hits.

Super good at two framing with generally little risk, and it launches horizontally, too. Once again, yellows make this easier.

The bad news is that it can be reflected. It's particularly scary when the opponent is right inside Oli's bubble since both Pikmin could be hit back at you. If this happens, it can actually deal like 50-60%. Ouch. Luckily, this is normally only a concern against the Marios, Zelda, and Fox due to how their reflectors work. It has item priority, too, though due to the situations it's typically used in (cross ups, edge guards, OOS punishes), I don't notice it as much as his other moves.

I'd put in A.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Zeldas is alright like what people have stated above, nothing higher then B, but I consider it one of her better moves that I often love using.

Is honestly pretty bad, it's got some end lag and its quite weak. The range ain't that great either. I might be making it sound worse then it really is, but it's easily her worst Smash and one of the worker Dsmashes.

Dsmash is ok, I'm sure it's the laggiest of his smashes, and the weakest. It does come out on frame....11? It's not too slow, and it's knockback is pretty good regardless, and it's duration is pretty nice. Nothing very special, other then the situational Dair to Dsmash, it might be his worst smash. Somewhere in C? or depending where others go it could scratch B.

Awesome move, so A tier worthy, the angle is great, very fast, long duration and I don't think it's that unsafe on shield. Though on some characters I find linking all the hits on the back side somewhat difficult, like on Samus. The KO power on the edge is great as well.