Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

[Routa]

Swordspider's Up-Smash in D tier? Why.. How... When...?
I mean it is strong, frame 11 and has a good disjoint. If I remember correctly you can get a Up-Smash off from a Jab and D-tilt, but my memory isn't the best so I may remember incorrectly. I would put Swordspider's U-Smash to C tier at least. I would say it is best U-Smash when it comes to Miis and their U-Smashes.

Speaking of Mii U-Smashes I would personally drop Brawler's U-Smash to D tier. I mean it is not horrible in terms of power, but due to horrible sourspot I would put it in D tier.

As for Gunner... I think that the C tier is fine. While it is pretty much Samus' U-Smash, but closer to the ground... Well it has its own things going for it. It is not as great at poking through the platforms due to lower reach, but like Djmarcus44 said it can be comboed into from fair. Also Nair lock can lead to U-Smash. Most common "fancy" U-Smash things is the Gundash into U-Smash. While it is unsafe to perform if the foe expects it... well the reward is high. Dunno why, but Samus' U-Smash seems worse. Dunno why. Maybe the fact that it is rarely used in comparison to Gunner's makes it look bad? Who knows. But I would personally keep the Gunner's U-Smash in C.

 

[Galaxeon]

Massive hitboxes and good endlag, but this move has considerable potential for them to fall out. So much that the move's best application I've seen is taking advantage of that on the Smashville moving platform. It's also the absolute worst in kill power, behind only Buster Shulk. And it only deals 11% damage if all hits connect, 7% if they're on a platform or in the air. I would say this is a D, it's just not a sensible part of her moveset with such low reward.

The move connects better now thanks to a patch, and they rarely fall out of it from my experience (actually, it's more Utilt that has connections issues and is more inconsistent). And the larger and best hit is the last one, that will usually catch opponents and always launch them. Also, the move's pretty good after a SHFF nair when fair is not an option (like when they are too close to the ground, because of percents being too low, or when you fight fastfallers), and there's definetly a window where Uair follow-ups are possible since it'll catch their jumps. Not to mention it's really great with many platforms, and guess what ZSS loves most...
It's obviously a weak Usmash in terms of killing but it's not like she lacks any killmove or set-up. It makes sense for ZSS to have such a quick, long-reaching and unique usmash. It works well with her kit. I really don't think it deserves to be in D tier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Where does Zard's Usmash fit in regards to range? It has excellent spread (reaches all around zard) and lasts a while to catch air dodges but...I regularly get crushed by characters with better range on their dairs!

It out ranges Cloud's Dair if done correctly.

Zard's should be S/A no contest, any lower is a disservice to it. Frame 6/7 start up, longer than Cloud's Dair in range, can jab lock off a nair or drop down if they miss the tech, has great power.

 

[Bowserboy3]

On the topic of outranging Cloud's Dair, , and 's Up Smashes all outrange Cloud's Dair. While ZSS's is easier to use and is a little safer, it's reward is minimal (of note, Marth's can tipper Cloud before Cloud's Dair can even hit Marth).

Of course 's can too, but hers gets cancelled out by his hitbox. Rip.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Samus's usmash covers all rolls regardless of hurtbox. Many Samus players did testing on this a while back.

I do agree that Gunner's and Samus's usmashes are good for ledge coverage. There was an Austrian Samus player a while back showing how he would stand at thw ledge and face away, then react to ledge options with usmash at kill percents for the kill (since it was unstale, seeing as it doesn't get any other use in a match), or reacting to a roll with grab. I've never looked into it myself since I use the same strategy but react to ledge get up/jump with up b instead. It might be worth trying to use usmash more though.

As far as combo potential, Samus's usmash is strictly better, though Samus is just good at combos in general. Dash attack to usmash is a really easy 28 damage at the 0-20ish range, although really once you master uair combos, it's better to go for 35-45 damage. Utilt to usmash and dair to usmash work at a huge percent window. Like someone else mentioned, falling uair to usmash works at low percents, but again, the optimal followup would be more uairs or a charge shot read.

If Samus wanted to combo into usmash, which occasionally I will do if I am behind and want combo damage without any of the risk of dropping an uair chain, then it's very easy to get a combo into usmash. It's a good 18 damage move standalone.

Gunner's fair to usmash is pretty decent, but you need to land fair right on top of the opponent which isn't always feasible and can be very telegraphed/shieldable. Not to say it doesn't matter that it combos, it does, it's just a lot easier with a really good combo starter/move like Samus's dash attack.

Gunner's usmash is a pretty good OOS move. Frame 11 isn't fast but it's powerful when it hits.

Samus and Gunner having the same level of lag on their usmashes as Mario is honestly BS, it's a difference of 16 FAF and a slow multi hit vs a single hit, measuring the frames between final hitbox and FAF is very misleading because of that. A Samus/Gunner that whiffs an usmash is way more screwed than a Mario.

All things considered the moves are essentially the exact same and the few differences balance out. There's certainly not a significant enough difference for a tier separation. My opinion is still that they're both D tier because they're not very good moves. But in the end if they're separated by a tier I would be annoyed, but only a little because there are more important things and agh why did I fall into the trap of typing paragraphs about one of Samus's individual moves

x_x

also @Zapp Branniglenn what do you mean about multihit smashes killing later?

While you are right about Samus getting similar roll punishing from up smash, and Mario's up smash being safer on whiff, Gunner's up smash is better for combos since Gunner can kill confirm into up smash from a missed tech or spin animation. When this is combined with the fact that Gunner's up smash hits all grounded opponents, it is obvious that Gunner's up smash gets more use because it is useful in more situations. For these reasons, Gunner's up smash shouldn't be moved down into D tier. This is especially true considering that there are worse up smashes in C tier.

 

[Masonomace]

It out ranges Cloud's Dair if done correctly.

Zard's should be S/A no contest, any lower is a disservice to it. Frame 6/7 start up, longer than Cloud's Dair in range, can jab lock off a nair or drop down if they miss the tech, has great power.

Idk why I haven't tagged any or all of the Zard players on here, but Zard's Usmash is so good because his wings aren't even a hurtbox thus they're disjointed to the max, right? If so, yeah Zard's Usmash is a very strong candidate move among the Usmashes in the game. Even if I was being conservative, I'd rank it A easily.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Idk why I haven't tagged any or all of the Zard players on here, but Zard's Usmash is so good because his wings aren't even a hurtbox thus they're disjointed to the max, right? If so, yeah Zard's Usmash is a very strong candidate move among the Usmashes in the game. Even if I was being conservative, I'd rank it A easily.

I can't confirm whether his wings aren't actually part of his hitbox (like, pretty sure you can hit them when he's jumping about, for example), but in his Up Smash and Up Tilt, they are intangible, so in effect, they may as well be disjointed (even though they realistically aren't).

 

[Rizen]

Are you guys sure about the wings not being a hurtbox? This video and kurogane hammer don't show any changes to them.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Charizard

 

[Bowserboy3]

Are you guys sure about the wings not being a hurtbox? This video and kurogane hammer don't show any changes to them.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Charizard

That video only shows hitboxes, not hurtboxes, so there is unfortunately no real way of telling.

An example of a Smash 4 hurtbox would be this:

See the yellow bubbles? They are hurtboxes, being areas that can he hit and register damage etc. The red bubbles that appear on specific frames are the hitboxes. These are essentially the bubbles that can hit yellow bubbles and register damage on the opponent.

So, in Charizard's example, if we ever got an image like that for his Up Smash, if his wings didn't have yellow bubbles on, then we know they are not part of his hurtbox, and that moves involving his wings (Up Tilt/Smash) are essentially disjointed moves, but as of now, there's no real way of telling, as a hurtbox image for those moves does not exist.

(totally unrelated topic, but Marth's hurtbox is pretty good, yay)

 

[Vyrnx]

They aren't a hurtbox. In training mode you can stand underneath a bumper with Zard and usmash.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

His wings are not hurtboxes, I can 110% confirm this.

The game even has a tip/hint about it when it is loading a match.

 

[BSP]

Pac-Man's Usmash should be C, not D. I see either dysfunctional or flat out bad Usmashes in D, and Pac-Man's is not with them. Again, decent startup for the front hit at 13F and a more than capable anti-air with the huge disjoint the ghost presents.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Pac-Man's Usmash should be C, not D. I see either dysfunctional or flat out bad Usmashes in D, and Pac-Man's is not with them. Again, decent startup for the front hit at 13F and a more than capable anti-air with the huge disjoint the ghost presents.

Don't forget that the 1st hit can be used for Hydrant set ups.

 

[Rizen]

That video only shows hitboxes, not hurtboxes, so there is unfortunately no real way of telling.

An example of a Smash 4 hurtbox would be this:

See the yellow bubbles? They are hurtboxes, being areas that can he hit and register damage etc. The red bubbles that appear on specific frames are the hitboxes. These are essentially the bubbles that can hit yellow bubbles and register damage on the opponent.

So, in Charizard's example, if we ever got an image like that for his Up Smash, if his wings didn't have yellow bubbles on, then we know they are not part of his hurtbox, and that moves involving his wings (Up Tilt/Smash) are essentially disjointed moves, but as of now, there's no real way of telling, as a hurtbox image for those moves does not exist.

(totally unrelated topic, but Marth's hurtbox is pretty good, yay)

I know what hit/hurt bubbles are. If you watch the video you'll see Charizard's states change, flashing blue when he's invulnerable during Fsmash (and when Peach gets up) and purple for super armor during upB and down B; his wings are included in these but not when he Utilt/smashes. What this means is either the wings are never part of the hurt box or wings don't have any independent state changes.
I'll take Red Ryu's word for it and say it's the former.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I think you need to be more specific about zard's up smash range, yes it outranges clouds dair but the first strike (upsmash is a two hit combo remember) actually is around the same range or even shorter than cloud's dair. It's the second hit that has all the range, KB, etc. on it. How do I know this? I kept getting hit by cloud's dair because the first hit of upsmash would fan on the hit and i'd get hit by his dair before the second strike could connect, the timing to outrange cloud's dair especially if you're trying to hit with the first part of it is very pinpoint precise. (and in a place like FD timing is crucial). So the true way zard's upsmash outranges cloud's dair is on the second hit of the combo, the first hit will whiff.

 

[Masonomace]

↑ With that, I can say the same about Shulk's Usmash in terms of challenging Cloud's Dair since that's apparently a topic or something. Shulk's Usmash Hit 1 can beat Cloud's linger Dair, but usually they trade. The neat thing about Usmash is that Shulk is lowering himself to help avoid those kind of things, which makes Usmash even better at being an anti-air.

 

[kendikong]

I think you need to be more specific about zard's up smash range, yes it outranges clouds dair but the first strike (upsmash is a two hit combo remember) actually is around the same range or even shorter than cloud's dair. It's the second hit that has all the range, KB, etc. on it. How do I know this? I kept getting hit by cloud's dair because the first hit of upsmash would fan on the hit and i'd get hit by his dair before the second strike could connect, the timing to outrange cloud's dair especially if you're trying to hit with the first part of it is very pinpoint precise. (and in a place like FD timing is crucial). So the true way zard's upsmash outranges cloud's dair is on the second hit of the combo, the first hit will whiff.

The first hit does beat cloud's dair, you just have to have the right timing

 

[Nathan Richardson]

The first hit does beat cloud's dair, you just have to have the right timing

Realize this is in online mode, the lag can be anything fron nonexistent (making timing your hits easier) to 20 or more frames (making timing just about impossible), so at what time does charizard's Upsmash counter cloud's dair, because the window has to be stupidly tight if i'm early on it by a half-second or so (need to review how long a frame lasts, everybody breaks down things by frames and in certain aspects of smash that is so fast as to be unnoticable)

 

[Nah]

Realize this is in online mode, the lag can be anything fron nonexistent (making timing your hits easier) to 20 or more frames (making timing just about impossible), so at what time does charizard's Upsmash counter cloud's dair, because the window has to be stupidly tight if i'm early on it by a half-second or so (need to review how long a frame lasts, everybody breaks down things by frames and in certain aspects of smash that is so fast as to be unnoticable)

A frame in this game is 1/60 of a second (the game runs at 60FPS). So 20 frames is 1/3 of a second for example.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

A frame in this game is 1/60 of a second (the game runs at 60FPS). So 20 frames is 1/3 of a second for example.

That's way to fast, I keep hearing about frame ten (1/6 of a second) and so on, if I used my phrase as an example my half second would be 30 frames (good lord that's quick), most online lag isn't measured in frames it's measured in SECONDS (from no seconds to as many as 10 or more not counting input lag which can be nonexistent in and of itself) in order to check frame data you'd have to be viewing each character's moves in super slow-motion!

 

[MarshieMan]

Human reaction time + controller delay is 17 frames

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Human reaction time + controller delay is 17 frames

So a little over a quarter of a second, my reaction time is much slower 30 frames.

 

[Guido65]

It out ranges Cloud's Dair if done correctly.

Zard's should be S/A no contest, any lower is a disservice to it. Frame 6/7 start up, longer than Cloud's Dair in range, can jab lock off a nair or drop down if they miss the tech, has great power.

Does it outrange both the clean and late hit? It most definitely outranges the late hit as the hitbox on the late hit is surprisingly small.

Spoiler: Clean hit vs late hit

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Does it outrange both the clean and late hit? It most definitely outranges the late hit as the hitbox on the late hit is surprisingly small.

Spoiler: Clean hit vs late hit

Not sure if both but 100% on the late one.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so sorry been afk for a bit, am planning on doing the final update for Up Smash for tommorow so leave your final thoughts!

 

[Masonomace]

One last deal about my case with Shulk's Usmash. Even with all it's problems, it can be fixed with said Rage amount for fast-fallers so that they cannot avoid the move. Overall, I still feel the move is a solid B-tier with its coverage in the Advantage because of its strong dominance for beating-out dodge options, ledge options, & sometimes even anti-air challenges. If the flaws about it are being overstressed, then I find the move to be C-tier at worst for trying to hit awkwardly on fast-fallers without said Rage needed. Other than that, it has 34 frames of endlag which doesn't sound great but having 16 frames of activity on its belt when hitting up close with the sword is really good. The power to kill optimally with the Hit 1 hitbox above the sword's end, or the grounded knock-up to bring into the launching Hit 2 make it very deadly even without Smash art needed. Although, the grounded knock-up is only 4 frames active.

I can't see the tier image-spread for Usmash, but Lucario's Usmash out of charge hold / release becomes Frame 1 which has to mean something. Smash attacks having the design to be charged & held can warrant better results even with said endlag.

 

[DunnoBro]

The only S-tier usmash is probably ganon. Being a legitimate neutral tool along with the general pressure usmashes provide.

Mario's isn't that plus on shield, can't hit platform, and is a much more conservative hitbox overall. Luigi's might be S since it's better and more consistent than mario's, but isn't quite as strong.

Mario's usmash gets a lot of attention because it's one of his only kill moves. His aerials, and specials don't kill so he relies on bthrow/smashes and an edgeguarding bair perhaps. Overall though it's only a good move, not superb.

Bayo's is S if we consider witch time along with it's above average ability to catch landings and ledge get-ups.

Mewtwo's is possibly S due to the ridiculous reach and the inability to airdodge through it for many characters without a hurtbox reducing airdoge landing lag animation.

Greninja is solidly A tier, perhaps top of A tier.

Worst Usmash is probably corrin or samus.

Special Mentions: Palutena, Shulk, Lucario, ROB, Bowser, Link, and Falco for ledge coverage. Locking them in at B tier at worst.

 

[bc1910]

Bayo's is overall too laggy for S-tier. It has good utility but not an exceptional level. If we're using Ganon's as the S-tier benchmark then the only other Usmash to come close was prepatch Greninja's.

Speaking of which, I can agree that Greninja's is probably A but not the top of it. It's got some nasty lag attached now and really contributes to his inability to kill a standing opponent out of his run. Other than that it's fast, powerful, deals obscene damage, a great anti-air and can be confirmed. A-tier seems fair.

Mewtwo's seems more like top of A-tier to me, with excellent speed, range and power. Again I would hold it out of S-tier due to its fairly long ending lag and animation guaranteeing a hard punish on whiff in most (though crucially, not all) situations but it's probably the second best Usmash in the game.

Agree that Mario and Luigi's are a little overrated and probably belong at the lower end of A-tier.

Sheik's is basically a slightly worse version of Greninja's that can't be confirmed at kill percent vs most characters. Tipper is still a fantastic anti-air because of the arm intangibility. I'd lock her in at B.

I'll cast my vote for Corrin having the worst Usmash. It's another above-the-head tipper but has horrendous sideways coverage and a tiny hitbox, not to mention worse active frames than the other tippers. At least Samus' can hit tall standing opponents.

Bowser Jr auto-B, maybe A, for having excellent ledge coverage.

 

[DunnoBro]

Bayo's is overall too laggy for S-tier. It has good utility but not an exceptional level. If we're using Ganon's as the S-tier benchmark then the only other Usmash to come close was prepatch Greninja's.

Yea, it's hard to place Bayo's. Though even barring witch time, it's low A-tier/high b-tier at worst for the ledge coverage. It's lag is pretty forgiving considering the range and power.

And I'd say sonic's usmash prepatch was barely S-tier. Covering standard/jump/rising options with a move that kills at 60% with rage (and in conjunction with old bthrow meant it was very likely for sonic to kill you sub-80% upon grabbing the ledge)

Though, you're right nothing really comes that close to Ganon's. It's very likely Ganon is the only legitimate S-tier. (That feels weird saying)

 

[Litany]

Ganon's U-smash is good, but it's not so good to legitimately outclass all other U-smashes. It's startup is still abysmal at 21 frames and it's not a great anti-air since it only lasts 3 frames (frame 21-23). It's not really all that great of a neutral tool either; it's deceptively fast, but it still has 19 frames of endlag. People who know the MU well will be able to punish it pretty consistently, although there are some exceptions to this rule (characters like Mario can sometimes struggle due to a lack of burst mobility/range).

 

[adom4]

The only U-smashes i'd put in S are Mario and Doc, they're just all around good without any big flaws,
Ganon's U-smash is fantastic but as Litany said the 21 frame startup and not amazing horizontal range drags it down a bit, i do think that on BF it's the best U-smash in the game because of how well it pressures the platforms there, but on other stages while still good there aren't as much opportunites to hit with it.

 

[bc1910]

It depends to what extent we are looking at tools in a vacuum or as an overall part of a character's kit.

Though in both cases I'd say Ganon's Usmash is S-tier. It's on a ****ty character but it's not exactly fair to penalise an excellent move for that.

 

[kendikong]

USmashes benefit greatly from characters with better run speeds to catch landings and whatnot.

A character like Ganon unforfunately has terrible run speeds, and his usmash can be avoided most of the time.

 

[Kofu]

The only S-tier usmash is probably ganon. Being a legitimate neutral tool along with the general pressure usmashes provide.

Going by that criteria Game & Watch's USmash would be S as well, trading damage and range for a few frames of cooldown and substantial invincibility.

 

[JayE]

Ness's up smash is quick and a good out of shield option... but its weak in killpower and low in damage.
So would it be good, bad, or decent?

 

[Flamegeyser]

I'd call S something like Mario, Ganon, G&W

 

[Rizen]

Ganon's Usmash is good but it has no invulnerability or armor. There's no way it's the only S tier with Usmashes like G&W and Bowser's around.

I agree the Mario bros' Usmashes are good but a bit overrated.

 

[DunnoBro]

Going by that criteria Game & Watch's USmash would be S as well, trading damage and range for a few frames of cooldown and substantial invincibility.

No? Less range, power, doesn't hit platforms, lingers less, and is slower. It's worse in every field but FAF and intangibility. And the better FAF is somewhat negligible since ganon's has more range and advantage on shield.

Ganon's Usmash is good but it has no invulnerability or armor. There's no way it's the only S tier with Usmashes like G&W and Bowser's around.

I agree the Mario bros' Usmashes are good but a bit overrated.

Bowser's is absurd too, though it's only really usable while in advantage unlike Ganon or GnW's. Definitely A tier at least. Though it isn't much more reliable than other smashes, it's strong AF and really makes bowser's ledge game kind of BS since he can safely try killing you at 60% if you ledge jump.

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so finally got around to revamping the list, here is the final update for Up-Smash:

Spoiler: Up-Smash

Sorry don't have time to do a TL;DR rn, but a placed all the rises and drops in the last slots of the ranks to make it easier to see what changed.

Anyways, we will be moving on to the final smash attack in Down-Smash. Take a day to discuss and an initial list should be up for tomorrow (hopefully).

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm actually really suprised that Pit's Up smash is in C tier but I guess that's ok. It doesn't kill early but having a such a fast, disjointed up smash is really nice.