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like all his smashes, deemed too laggy to be used as a regular option. The tipper hitbox is far more powerful but naturally only hits those in the air. Platforms are too low for the tipper to connect, unlike WFT, Sheik, Corrin, Ganondorf, and greninja who can shark platforms for an earlier kill. And it's worth mention that Marth has more endlag than all of those guys. To pick any real saving grace for this move, the launcher hit located on the ground reaches a fair distance horizontally. Not really comparing well to Marth's general reach on normals, but is pretty accurately the same as his standing grab. And Marth has the longest standing grab reach of anybody besides tether grabs and Bowser. If it weren't for Marth's excellent standing grab and Dolphin Slash, this would be a good addition to his OoS game, but is really relegated as a hard punish option for crossups on shield, like Metaknight's Dash Attack.1.25% more damage than Marth to make up for no tipper hit. But since Marth's tipper hit is so unreasonable compared to his other moves, it's not an awful trade off. And Lucina will generally enjoy ~ 8% earlier kills because of the damage increase. Both of these characters should be ranked low, but most importantly on the same tier, in my opinion.The strong hit is not limited to airborne targets and platforms, it's low enough to strike characters that are tall enough on the ground, assuming they're standing still. But I believe they have to stand as tall as Marth, which is a low amount of characters, indeed. I call it a tipper, but it's really a separate early hitbox that allows for this. It's also possible for this hitbox and the later 11% hit to connect on the same target. This can be seen on Marth and Bowser at low %s for massive damage. Moreso an oversight in the move's design than a feature.Unique because the tipper is not the strongest hit in terms of knockback. Just by being close, her smash rivals Little Mac while also enjoying limb intangibility.You didn't address my point about limb intangibility, a lot of characters have it. Allow me to provide your proposed A and S tier of intangible/invincible Usmashes:
but I think you get my point by now. All of these generally match Mario's anti-air capabilities in practice in terms of what aerials do and do not trade or win, and the key differences are in frame data. Mario's Usmash has good frame data, but he's also under average in kill power to offset this.
upsmash fails to hit when he's standing right next to her.
Huh. I missed it standing still right beside a Samus. Was he holding a bomb? I was. Maybe that did something?
's Usmash was buffed to fix connection issues. It was patched just days after that video, in fact. I haven't seen evidence of these still happening. The only repeatable scenario I can find where it happens is targeting people on a platform above and in front of you. It's unfortunate, but I like the move because it cleanly combos from falling Uair for good damage. And from missed techs from Utilt and Dair. It's certainly not the only Usmash that can be comboed into, but it should be getting regular use unlike actual bad Usmashes.
It's not that it doesn't work, it's that it's bad. Really, really bad. Imagine Mario's up smash, only without the frame data, without the invincibility, without the vertical range, and without Mario's fast run speed to make it more spammable. That's Jigglypuff's up smash in a nutshell.
Gunner's up smash shouldn't be dropped to D tier because it has decent speed, strength, and disjoint without it being too laggy. In addition, it also covers rolls, and Gunner can set up into it from a missed tech or spin animation. It is also a good mixup from jab. While opponents sometimes fall out of it, the move has too many uses to be put in D tier.
's Usmash is S and better than the Mario Bros'. I've tanked Lucina's Fsmash and won by using the frame 4-25 partial invulnerability (attacks 24-25) that's hard to get around without a very low attack or grab. It's +4 on shield drop. 16% damage.
Agreeing with this, though the Mario Bros. USmashes are still useful thanks to their speed, especially if you reverse them because the hitboxes start behind them.
Gunner's up smash is better than Samus's up smash because Gunner's up smash hits all grounded opponents. This makes Gunner's up smash more useful for OOS punishes and ledge option coverage. Samus's up smash isn't very good at covering rolls because it doesn't hit most grounded opponents. In addition, Gunner can combo into jump canceled up smash from fair at low percents. While Gunner's dash attack covers rolls, Gunner's up smash is better for edgeguarding since Gunner can use it while staying in position to use flame pillar (It covers roll and jump when timed properly). Gunner's endlag on up smash isn't too bad considering that it is the same amount as Mario's up smash.
I still find these vastly overhyped for reasons previously argued. An S tier move for Mario, but not comparatively. Luigi's has an added sourspot, and Doc is unpredictable to work with for killing.A dubious choice for S tier since its major claim to fame is being great on shield, and yet Usmashes are meant to target air opponents. I would have put it in A.deserves C at the very highest. The KBG nerf it received in patch 1.08 was a huge hit to him. Among equally slow startup Usmashes, Sonic's kill potential lags far behind the likes of Shulk, Ganon, Bowser, or Palutena. I frames exist around the first hit, but past those, the move will trade or lose to low range aerials like Mario's Nair, making it one of the lesser Usmashes for anti-air potential. There's also connection issues when used against heavyweights. If you do Usmash on a grounded Bowser, he will fall out and get a free Fsmash on Sonic. This is more common when the Usmash is performed when running, and you'll never see Sonic use this when not running.is functionally the same thing as s. Same startup, same kill power, same 2 frames inbetween hits. Zelda has less endlag but Mewtwo has slightly better disjoint for anti-air. Neither will beat a Cloud Dair.Great at killing. Even without the tipper is above average. It is not particularly good in startup or endlag, and the hitbox is unforgivingly thin, but I would definitely say this isn't a D.Massive hitboxes and good endlag, but this move has considerable potential for them to fall out. So much that the move's best application I've seen is taking advantage of that on the Smashville moving platform. It's also the absolute worst in kill power, behind only Buster Shulk. And it only deals 11% damage if all hits connect, 7% if they're on a platform or in the air. I would say this is a D, it's just not a sensible part of her moveset with such low reward. I understand that this is a pivotal move for Fox to end stocks, block punish, and combo into, but they're both on the low end for kill power, and Fox has extremely high endlag. Getting blocked with this move is fatal with -36 advantage. Falco's is considerably better in this department and I love it's high amount of active frames to go with leg intangibility, allowing him to beat a wide variety of aerials as well as air dodges at the same time. I think Fox for sure needs to move down, and maybe Falco as well since he doesn't regularly combo into the attack like Fox can, but Falco would be the more deserving of A tier otherwise.into B, into D, or both. Yoshi's is not that much stronger than Fox's, but endlag is far better, so I'd say they're comparable. Pikachu's is bad because most of the move is a 11% sourspot that doesn't reasonably kill. Only getting the sweetspot in front of pikachu on grounded targets. On the other hand, the low-ish endlag makes it viable to at least use in the first place, even if you don't get the kill.You must be mistaken. Little Mac's KO Punch from the ground is programmed unblockable, so it will beat both G&W's and Bowser's Usmashes during their invincible frames.
moves to S, and is in S, then should be too. G&W's smash does have earlier invincibility, but considerably later hitbox than Bowser. This results in scenarios where you're just in time to not get hit by a falling aerial, but they pull up shield after their landing lag and block the attack. And G&W's invincibility does not extend to his whole body like Bowser's does.
I'm not sure I'd call Doc's unpredictable to work with, you know where they'll get sent and even across the stage it still kills early enough. On the flip side (literally), with optimal conditions it can kill at silly percents. It also does the most raw damage which is worth noting imo. I think it's better than Mario's in a vacuum.
Samus's usmash covers all rolls regardless of hurtbox. Many Samus players did testing on this a while back.
Zapp Branniglenn
what do you mean about multihit smashes killing later?
A vertical kill move works anywhere. But Doc's ability to kill is dependent entirely on where he is, and where the victim is in relation to him. Not only must he space, he needs to turn around or pivot if he's in a run for optimization. Everybody else just needs to land their attack. But why I say it's unpredictable is that you only know which direction they'll be sent if they're also on the ground. If they're in the air above you, it's a coin toss. They'll be drifting behind or in front of Doc as they micro manage spacing, and that determines which horizontal direction they're sent. Doc is at the mercy of his own attack.
If you're referring to the knockback comparison data a page back, it's because the knockback of the final hits for these moves are designed with consideration for how high off the ground the victim will be thanks to the preceding hits. Since they're closer to the ceiling (blastzone) they require less knockback for a kill. So a comparison of knockback (in units) between these different types of smashes isn't totally accurate.also
That may be the reaction time, but if you can see the usmash coming, it's not impossible to correctly DI, or to DI correctly while doing another option in case it comes out.
