• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Ranking moves in Characters (Round 21: Discussing Down-Special)

What will you like to discuss next?

  • Jabs

    Votes: 29 72.5%
  • Grabs

    Votes: 3 7.5%
  • Continue with Specials

    Votes: 8 20.0%

  • Total voters
    40
  • Poll closed .

Routa

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2015
Messages
1,208
Location
Loimaa, Finland
With thous definitions of each tiers I would say that Brawler's is either D or C. It is pretty much like Wario's. Only difference is that it comes out faster, is only active for 1 frame and has 2 frames higher faf.

Swordspider's F-Smash would be then B-C tier. It is pretty much Lucina version of Roy's F-Smash, but slower.
Roy's F-Smash data:

Lucina's F-Smash data:

Swordspider's F-Smash data:


As for Gunner... By thous definitions of each tier... Well Gunner is B-D tier. It is used rather commonly due to long range and long activity. It makes it good edgeguarding tool and it cannot be spotdodged. But then again it is laggy and deals very little damage and has weak killpower. Even tho it is datawise bad it is used rather commonly in Gunner's gameplan.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
Took the time to test Fsmash kill %s. Ranked in a way that prioritizes the strongest hit. I think there's some serious misunderstanding of how detrimental it is to have a multihit Fsmash, so they get extra %s with optimal DI.

Mario set to control in Training Mode FD at default position. Moves with multiple hits have all them connect, even if they result in pushing Mario closer to the blast zone before being launched. Kill%s are when Mario finally hits the blastzone, and is not based on the red lightning effect. Test designed purely for knockback comparison. Unscientific because even if victim fails to DI, they still hold toward the stage, or hurtbox shift with double jump or attacks to avoid touching blast zone. Only multihits have Optimal DI and holding toward the stage in a separate test. SDI is not used

:4lucario: (Max aura/100% of Aura/No Aura) 20/~45/99
:4marth: (tipper/sourspot) 43/97
:4dedede: 45
:4bowser: (initial/late hit) 46/81
:4ness: (sweet/18% sour) 50/68
:4ganondorf: (sweet/sour) 52/63
:4myfriends: 52
:4villager: 53
:4feroy: (sweet/sour) 54/69
:4charizard: (sweet/sour) 57/74
:4link: (both hits/both hits with DI/1st hit tipper) 61/90/88
:4miibrawl: 64
:4cloud: (No DI/DI) 65-70/81-87
:4drmario: (sweet/sour) 66/81
:4wario: 67
:4metaknight: (sweet/sour) 67/77
:4olimar: (initial hit Purple/Red/Yellow/Blue/White) 67/80/89/89/114
:4duckhunt: (No DI/DI) 67/84
:4shulk: Smash (No DI/DI) 67/82
:4tlink: (both hits/both hits with DI) 68/83
:4littlemac: (no angle/up) 68/96 <-vertical kill
:4falcon: (up/no angle/down) 68/71/75
:4dk: (sweet/sour) 69/71
:4bowserjr: (No DI/DI) 70/89
:4palutena: (sweet/sour) 70/91
:4lucina: 71
:rosalina: (Rosa+Luma/Rosa/Luma/Luma sour) 73/91/80/147 <-vertical kill
:4robinm: (Levin/bronze) 73/128
:4pikachu: (strong/early/late hit) 73/107/100
:4mario: (tipper/sourspot) 74/89
:4corrin: (tipper/sourspot) 74/116
:4wiifit: 75
:4falco: 76
:4miisword: (tipper/sour/sour-er) 76/81/98
:4bayonetta: (sweet/sour) 76/89
:4ryu: (tipper/sourspot) 77/86
:4lucas: (sweet/sour) 77/84
:4luigi: (down/no angle/up) 77/88/94 <-vertical kill
:4gaw: (tipper/sourspot) 79/94
:4samus: (tipper/sourspot) 79/103
:4kirby: 79
:4shulk: no Art (No DI/DI) 79/97
:4pacman: (sweet/sour) 80/86
:4yoshi: (sweet/sour) 80/92
:4zelda: (No DI/DI) 81/100
:4jigglypuff: 81
:4rob: (sweet/sour) 81/109
:4mewtwo: (tipper/sour) 82/87
:4shulk: Speed (No DI/DI) 83/101
:4pit::4darkpit: (No DI/DI) 84/106
:4shulk: Shield (No DI/DI) 85/103
:4greninja: 87
:4sonic: 87
:4diddy: 88/107
:4peach: (racket/club/pan) 92/103/100 <-vertical kill
:4zss: (No DI/DI) 94/108
:4miigun: (No DI/DI) 94/116
:4sheik: (No DI/DI) 97/124
:4fox: (initial/late hit) 100/126
:4megaman: 112

I excluded late hits with Olimar's Fsmash, Little Mac's down angled smash, Roy's tipper, Shulk's Buster Art, and other weak/late hits that don't feasibly kill. Cloud has too much variation in second hit damage and spacing, so he gets a range instead of separate values.

Edit: Forgot to Add Cloud's DI value. There are more that I missed below involving angled Fsmashes, provided by Masonomace Masonomace
 
Last edited:

MarshieMan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
186
NNID
MarshieMan
Surprising how late Falcons kills. Also emphasis on how weak sonic and fox's are.
 

JosePollo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2015
Messages
406
Location
Las Vegas
Took the time to test Fsmash kill %s. Ranked in a way that prioritizes the strongest hit. I think there's some serious misunderstanding of how detrimental it is to have a multihit Fsmash, so they get extra %s with optimal DI.

Mario set to control in Training Mode FD at default position. Moves with multiple hits have all them connect, even if they result in pushing Mario closer to the blast zone before being launched. Kill%s are when Mario finally hits the blastzone, and is not based on the red lightning effect. Test designed purely for knockback comparison. Unscientific because even if victim fails to DI, they still hold toward the stage, or hurtbox shift with double jump or attacks to avoid touching blast zone. Only multihits have Optimal DI and holding toward the stage in a separate test. SDI is not used

:4lucario: (Max aura/100% of Aura/No Aura) 20/~45/99
:4marth: (tipper/sourspot) 43/97
:4dedede: 45
:4bowser: (initial/late hit) 46/81
:4ness: (sweet/18% sour) 50/68
:4ganondorf: (sweet/sour) 52/63
:4myfriends: 52
:4villager: 53
:4feroy: (sweet/sour) 54/69
:4charizard: (sweet/sour) 57/74
:4link: (both hits/both hits with DI/1st hit tipper) 61/90/88
:4miibrawl: 64
:4cloud: 65-70
:4drmario: (sweet/sour) 66/81
:4wario: 67
:4metaknight: (sweet/sour) 67/77
:4olimar: (initial hit Purple/Red/Yellow/Blue/White) 67/80/89/89/114
:4duckhunt: (No DI/DI) 67/84
:4shulk: Smash (No DI/DI) 67/82
:4tlink: (both hits/both hits with DI) 68/83
:4littlemac: (no angle/up) 68/96 <-vertical kill
:4falcon: (up/no angle/down) 68/71/75
:4dk: (sweet/sour) 69/71
:4bowserjr: (No DI/DI) 70/89
:4palutena: (sweet/sour) 70/91
:4lucina: 71
:rosalina: (Rosa+Luma/Rosa/Luma/Luma sour) 73/91/80/147 <-vertical kill
:4robinm: (Levin/bronze) 73/128
:4pikachu: (strong/early/late hit) 73/107/100
:4mario: (tipper/sourspot) 74/89
:4corrin: (tipper/sourspot) 74/116
:4wiifit: 75
:4falco: 76
:4miisword: (tipper/sour/sour-er) 76/81/98
:4bayonetta: (sweet/sour) 76/89
:4ryu: (tipper/sourspot) 77/86
:4lucas: (sweet/sour) 77/84
:4luigi: (down/no angle/up) 77/88/94 <-vertical kill
:4gaw: (tipper/sourspot) 79/94
:4samus: (tipper/sourspot) 79/103
:4kirby: 79
:4shulk: no Art (No DI/DI) 79/97
:4pacman: (sweet/sour) 80/86
:4yoshi: (sweet/sour) 80/92
:4zelda: (No DI/DI) 81/100
:4jigglypuff: 81
:4rob: (sweet/sour) 81/109
:4mewtwo: (tipper/sour) 82/87
:4shulk: Speed (No DI/DI) 83/101
:4pit::4darkpit: (No DI/DI) 84/106
:4shulk: Shield (No DI/DI) 85/103
:4greninja: 87
:4sonic: 87
:4diddy: 88/107
:4peach: (racket/club/pan) 92/103/100 <-vertical kill
:4zss: (No DI/DI) 94/108
:4miigun: (No DI/DI) 94/116
:4sheik: (No DI/DI) 97/124
:4fox: (initial/late hit) 100/126
:4megaman: 112

I excluded late hits with Olimar's Fsmash, Little Mac's down angled smash, Roy's tipper, Shulk's Buster Art, and other weak/late hits that don't feasibly kill. Cloud has too much variation in second hit damage and spacing, so he gets a range instead of separate values.
You should save yourself the time testing all of these in-game and use this knockback calculator instead: https://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/

It's accounts for every factor (including stuff like gravity and every single DI angle possible) that goes into determining knockback and even has a little visual display to show you the exact trajectory a character takes upon launch, when hitstun ends/is interruptible, and even the exact moment the character crosses a blast zone. Should save you a lot of hours, frustration, and significant human error.

That being said, I'm surprised by how early Duck Hunt can kill when his f-smash decides to work properly.
 
Last edited:

Nathan Richardson

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 30, 2016
Messages
796
Location
Warren MI.
NNID
Zeratrix
For all the weaknesses charizard's forward smash has I couldn't help but notices it kills surprisingly early...if you hit the sweet spot that is.
 

TheGoodGuava

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
744
Location
At Home
The tipper hitbox is also rather safe on shield and being frame 10 its kind of ridiculous. 20FE Marth spacing would be more broken that prepatch Bayonetta
 

Masonomace

Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
4,622
Location
Independence, MO
NNID
Masonomace
Took the time to test Fsmash kill %s. Ranked in a way that prioritizes the strongest hit. I think there's some serious misunderstanding of how detrimental it is to have a multihit Fsmash, so they get extra %s with optimal DI.

Mario set to control in Training Mode FD at default position. Moves with multiple hits have all them connect, even if they result in pushing Mario closer to the blast zone before being launched. Kill%s are when Mario finally hits the blastzone, and is not based on the red lightning effect. Test designed purely for knockback comparison. Unscientific because even if victim fails to DI, they still hold toward the stage, or hurtbox shift with double jump or attacks to avoid touching blast zone. Only multihits have Optimal DI and holding toward the stage in a separate test. SDI is not used

:4lucario: (Max aura/100% of Aura/No Aura) 20/~45/99
:4marth: (tipper/sourspot) 43/97
:4dedede: 45
:4bowser: (initial/late hit) 46/81
:4ness: (sweet/18% sour) 50/68
:4ganondorf: (sweet/sour) 52/63
:4myfriends: 52
:4villager: 53
:4feroy: (sweet/sour) 54/69
:4charizard: (sweet/sour) 57/74
:4link: (both hits/both hits with DI/1st hit tipper) 61/90/88
:4miibrawl: 64
:4cloud: 65-70
:4drmario: (sweet/sour) 66/81
:4wario: 67
:4metaknight: (sweet/sour) 67/77
:4olimar: (initial hit Purple/Red/Yellow/Blue/White) 67/80/89/89/114
:4duckhunt: (No DI/DI) 67/84
:4shulk: Smash (No DI/DI) 67/82
:4tlink: (both hits/both hits with DI) 68/83
:4littlemac: (no angle/up) 68/96 <-vertical kill
:4falcon: (up/no angle/down) 68/71/75
:4dk: (sweet/sour) 69/71
:4bowserjr: (No DI/DI) 70/89
:4palutena: (sweet/sour) 70/91
:4lucina: 71
:rosalina: (Rosa+Luma/Rosa/Luma/Luma sour) 73/91/80/147 <-vertical kill
:4robinm: (Levin/bronze) 73/128
:4pikachu: (strong/early/late hit) 73/107/100
:4mario: (tipper/sourspot) 74/89
:4corrin: (tipper/sourspot) 74/116
:4wiifit: 75
:4falco: 76
:4miisword: (tipper/sour/sour-er) 76/81/98
:4bayonetta: (sweet/sour) 76/89
:4ryu: (tipper/sourspot) 77/86
:4lucas: (sweet/sour) 77/84
:4luigi: (down/no angle/up) 77/88/94 <-vertical kill
:4gaw: (tipper/sourspot) 79/94
:4samus: (tipper/sourspot) 79/103
:4kirby: 79
:4shulk: no Art (No DI/DI) 79/97
:4pacman: (sweet/sour) 80/86
:4yoshi: (sweet/sour) 80/92
:4zelda: (No DI/DI) 81/100
:4jigglypuff: 81
:4rob: (sweet/sour) 81/109
:4mewtwo: (tipper/sour) 82/87
:4shulk: Speed (No DI/DI) 83/101
:4pit::4darkpit: (No DI/DI) 84/106
:4shulk: Shield (No DI/DI) 85/103
:4greninja: 87
:4sonic: 87
:4diddy: 88/107
:4peach: (racket/club/pan) 92/103/100 <-vertical kill
:4zss: (No DI/DI) 94/108
:4miigun: (No DI/DI) 94/116
:4sheik: (No DI/DI) 97/124
:4fox: (initial/late hit) 100/126
:4megaman: 112

I excluded late hits with Olimar's Fsmash, Little Mac's down angled smash, Roy's tipper, Shulk's Buster Art, and other weak/late hits that don't feasibly kill. Cloud has too much variation in second hit damage and spacing, so he gets a range instead of separate values.
Nice! Here's a followup lab for fsmashes angled up or down for earlier kill percents, since some of them have higher kb, different angles, more or less damage etc..:
Without DI | With DI
:4shulk:(Angled up): 60/74
:4drmario:(Angled up): Sweet: 61/76 | Sour: 73/89
:4drmario:(Angled down): Sweet: 63/78 | Sour: 75/91
:4falcon:(Angled up): 68/82
:4mario:(Angled up): Sweet: 69/82 | Sour: 84/98
:4shulk:(Angled up):
70/87
:4mario:(Angled down): Sweet: 71/84 | Sour: 86/101
:4kirby:(Angled up): 73/86
:4samus:(Angled up): Sweet: 73/87 | Sour: 94/109
:4shulk:(Angled up): 74/90
:4falcon:(Angled down): 75/88
:4shulk:(Angled up): 76/92
:4samus:(Angled down): Sweet: 83/99 | Sour: 113/130
:4kirby:(Angled down): 86/101
 
Last edited:

MarshieMan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
186
NNID
MarshieMan
I guess being able to angle Fsmashes is a pretty big deal. It boosts kill power by a good 5-10%
 
Last edited:

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
Oops, in addition to those angled Fsmashes, I forgot Cloud's range when the victim DIs. Yikes, I almost made that move look good. 12th in kill power at best? Try ~40th when multihit smashes with DI are taken into account.

I guess being able to angle Fsmashes is a pretty big deal. It boosts kill power by a good 5-10%
For Fsmashes designed that way. Like he said, it's minute differences in damage or knockback stats, or angle that result in different kill %s. Sonic, Ganondorf, and Corrin for example have no differences. Several angled F-tilts are like this too, but since none of those angled Ftilts are the ones that have reasonable kill potential like Link, Ike, Bowser, etc, It's an even more minute detail.

The tipper hitbox is also rather safe on shield and being frame 10 its kind of ridiculous. 20FE Marth spacing would be more broken that prepatch Bayonetta
Rather safe is a strong choice of words. The distance between Marth and Defender would be very large, but I doubt anybody could miss their guaranteed dash grab after dropping shield. Corrin is probably the only character that would still be in range of their Fsmash as a punish, so that's fatal, as is anybody who can kill with a grab.

You should save yourself the time testing all of these in-game and use this knockback calculator instead: https://rubendal.github.io/Sm4sh-Calculator/
Ah, I never knew about the visualizer. I'll try it next time
 

Funbot28

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
209
NNID
AlwaysDOMINATE
K should have the updated list done for tonight, so get your final opinions out until then!
 

TheHypnotoad

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
615
Pit and Dark Pit should at least be B tier. I don't know exactly what frame it comes out and I don't have time to check KuroganeHammer right now, but I know it's pretty ****ing fast.
 

arbustopachon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2016
Messages
282
Location
Uruguay
Pit's fsmash hits on frame 10. So yeah pretty ****ing fast. It does kill kinda late and both hits are only active for one frame thankfully.
 
Last edited:

Masonomace

Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
4,622
Location
Independence, MO
NNID
Masonomace
I guess for last opinion thoughts, bonus goodies & usage would speak to me. Said goodies include:
  • super armor
  • invincibility / intangibility,
  • "cannot rebound"
  • hitbox activity
Said usage includes:
  • long angling window
  • more or less range for said angled attack or straight-angled attack for a basic concept
  • kill power and or combo finisher
Then there's said baddies including things like:
  • lack-of on-hit consistency
  • faulty angles that is bad design
  • hitboxes lasting too short
  • low priority
  • no armor (this can be overlooked & not be as demanding for ranking)
And weaknesses:
  • very short angle window
  • short range
  • low damage / kill power
  • high endlag
  • safety on shield? (*laughing* this can be overlooked & not be as demanding for ranking?)

Given with all this to think about, I'd still rank :4shulk:'s fsmash C or B. C for being conservative & B coming from my bias.

EDIT: Also, I'm gonna say real quick for no reason, Samus' fsmash angled is super hard to do unless actually charging it & then holding a direction down or up for an easier time. Other fsmashes angled are made much easier done this way, but again, Sonic Falcon Shulk & other characters are easy to execute.
 
Last edited:

MarshieMan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
186
NNID
MarshieMan
My last thought is just to say again that little mac should be alone in S tier
 
Last edited:

Funbot28

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 27, 2015
Messages
209
NNID
AlwaysDOMINATE
Ok so finally got arounf to finalizing the Forward Smash list to be as followed:


Dont have time to do a TL:DR atm, will try to do one maybe tomorrow morning but i feel the changes are p evident.

Now we will be moving on to Up-Smash (aka Mario Smash...), discuss and a preliminary list should be up for tomorrow.
 

TheHypnotoad

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
615
Jesus, there are so many good up smashes in this game.

S: Mario, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Fox, Game & Watch
F: Ike, King Dedede, Duck Hunt, Zero Suit Samus, Lucas
 

ILOVESMASH

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
590
NNID
Marioman123450
3DS FC
3368-1022-7382
Falco's USmash is A-Tier. Its one of the fastest U-Smashes in the game (Frame 7) and has large active hitboxes that allow it to cover the ledge and landings quite easily. Biggest issue with it is that it sometimes doesn't connect properly, but that happens rather infrequently.

Roy's U-Smash is probably B-Tier, while Marth and Lucina's are C-Tier. Roy's U-Smash scales well with rage, has confirms into it (Nair hit one into Usmash, Jab to JC U-Smash) and kills reasonably early (Around the 90 to 100 range). Biggest issue with it is that its quite laggy. Marth and Lucina's U-Smash have the same data as Roy, but are notably worse than his due to their slow run speed and worse confirms into it.

Meta Knight's U-Smash is probably A tier. Its weak, but extremely fast, combos from D-Throw, has multiple hitboxes, and has low lag compared to some other U-Smashes.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
My bottom tier picks are

:4jigglypuff:: It's slow-ish startup, definitely on the lower end of knockback for killing, and some genius gave it a sourspot to complement it's extremely poor range. This is nothing new for her moveset, but it's annoying that you'll trade with short range aerials like a basic Mario Nair 100% of the time. Jigglypuff cannot accept trades. As an OoS option, Usmash virtually covers no distance a short hop rest couldn't, and short hop Nair and Fair both come out sooner than Usmashe's 16 startup. It has no applications for her moveset.

:4olimar:: This is where item priority is a problem. If the opponent is coming down with any attack, you cannot strike them with this anti-air move. It also has considerably more endlag than both Forward and Down Smash, which have unique utilities in his moveset.

:4ness:: Same issue as Olimar, cannot be used to hit incoming aerials. And don't let the 6 startup fool you, the hitbox starts on his butt before moving out and around his body. He's vulnerable to many angles of attack at all times of the move. It's also got considerable endlag made worse on block. The move is considered a projectile, so it deals less shieldstun, but Ness' body is still connected to it, so he suffers shield hitlag. He doesn't get the added safety a projectile provides in terms of shield advantage. Finally, I'd wager it's among the bottom in terms of kill power, even when you get the strong hit. The active hit frames are a blessing when people air dodge past it (as opposed to aerial through it for a free hit), but even that depends on which side they are on in relation to Ness.

:4myfriends:: Besides 25 frame startup, the move is plagued with sourspots with lower launch angles that will reduce the kill potential. The high endlag also does him no favors. :4lucas:is also absurdly slow to come out with far worse endlag, but he enjoys invulnerability and Mario-style head intangibility for much of the startup, in addition to an absurd 24 active hit frames that make a great answer to those who simply airdodge past it.

:4falcon:Also high startup with 22 frames. Only one hit frame for each kick and it doesn't reach behind him. I believe the kill potential for this one is only above average against airborne opponents rather than grounded ones. There's just no seriously redeeming qualities with this attack.

There's plenty more I'm not a fan of, but I'd have to test some things first.
 
Last edited:

LRodC

Smashing With Mewtwo and Cloud
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
818
Location
Philadelphia, PA
NNID
LightningrodC
3DS FC
1461-6200-7452
I nominate Mewtwo for A, Sheik for B, Ganondorf for S, the Marios and Luigi for S, and Link's for B.
 

LRodC

Smashing With Mewtwo and Cloud
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Messages
818
Location
Philadelphia, PA
NNID
LightningrodC
3DS FC
1461-6200-7452
I'd put :4link:'s Usmash in 'A' tier. It starts frame 10, hits 3 times catching dodges, deals 18% and has a huge area of disjointed attack. It hits significantly in front, behind and above Link. I've never had an opponent pop out, unlike Fsmash.
https://youtu.be/zheUdc5bIPI?t=22
The only downside is the endlag.
Not only that, but it works really well with his down throw. I could see A being a reasonable ranking, I just wasn't sure if it had too much competition.
 

Nah

Smash Champion
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
2,180
:4littlemac: Usmash is probably S tier too. All his smashes are probably S tier really, super armor+that frame data+that raw power is kind of ridiculous.

:4samus:'s would be better if all the hits connected reliably and it could actually hit most of the cast when they're on the ground, but it doesn't so it's likely in C or D or something I guess.
 

Galaxeon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
56
II've never had an opponent pop out, unlike Fsmash.
This happened to me several times though.

:4bayonetta:'s usmash is designed to be the Witch Time finisher and it works very well in the sense it has a huge hitbox and strong vertical knockback. However without WT its flaws become obvious : slow, clanks with everything, punishable... It can't be higher than C. Personnally I wouldn't put it in D because of the pure effectiveness of it after Witch Time but I guess it's where it will end up in comparison to the many good usmashes in the game. We'll see, still vote for C atm.

:4greninja:'s usmash was insane but got nerfed. The sweetspot is still amazing and send at a 90° angle, the move is pretty quick overall and has many set ups. But it doesn't work with grounded opponents and that is a big flaw (it's not a good OOS options). It also doesn't go well with platforms, which is frustrating. Still a good move, the first hit leads to early kills and the late hit isn't exactly bad either (it's not Pikachu level of sourspotness). I'd say it can go in B tier.

:4zss:'s usmash is a bit underrated. Unlike many other usmashes, its fuction isn't to kill. But it's not like she lacked a good, fast OOS upward killmove anyway. Usmash is nice, quick enough at the end to follow-up with aerials occasionnaly, has a huge disjointed range, making it an excellent anti-air against pretty much everything. It is however inferior to her frame 3 utilt hitting both sides with intangibility and sending into a better angle to kill so... yeah. B or C.
 

Masonomace

Yeah Shulk, get stuck in!
Joined
Apr 10, 2010
Messages
4,622
Location
Independence, MO
NNID
Masonomace
Don't know what I'd rank Shulk's Usmash honestly. It DESTROYS ledge getup, which is an overused ledge option to say the least. With the right reading of the moment you can beat every ledge option with Usmash, except ledge-dropping option since it cannot hit below ledge height afaik. The second hit also cannot clank with moves therefore beating-out attacks, so there's that too. Oh, & the reason why I say that Shulk's Usmash DESTROYS ledge getup is because the move is active for 16 frames. . .12 frames of Hit 1 activity, & 4 frames of Hit 2 activity. There's even a ground-target-only knock-up hitbox that launches you into the second hit thus putting you at a larger height to be hit by an attack that has no sourspot. This is considered a blessing not to mention that the majority of players I know that understand Shulk a good amount believe that Usmash is his best smash attack overall.

The kill power is insanely good & when you see a hard-punish opportunity, the knock-up into Hit 2 of Usmash is the best feeling. Otherwise, Buffer Deactivation into a jump-canceled Usmash travels so much distance, that you can catch a landing by a huge surprise plus the nature of reverting the speed art damage back to Vanilla for that standard-but-better kill power by a small amount.

So yeah. Dunno what I'd rank.
I've never had an opponent pop out, unlike Fsmash.
Oddly enough, I've had experiences of avoiding death with Smash art DI'ing up & out of the move before the third hit connecting. I've also escaped out of the move with Shield art, but I'm gonna clarify & say that I'm not consistent with it nor am I convinced that it's a good strategy. So yeah
 
Last edited:

arbustopachon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2016
Messages
282
Location
Uruguay
Skip to 0:14 for Zard's u-smash

First hit hits on frame 6 against aerial opponents and frame 7 against grounded opponents. It is active untill frame 11 and deals 5%.
The second hit comes on frame 17 and is active for 5 frames. it deals 11%, has an angle of 83, has 40 bkb and 107 kbg.
The move's FAF is 49.

This thing is great. It's completely disjointed, hitboxes are big, both hits are fairly active, it has one of the fastest startups for an u-smash in the game, deals good damge and kills reasonably well. Its both a great oos tool and a strong antiair.

Zard has ways of comboing into it. U-tillt, d-throw and u-air all combo into u-smash.
At high percents you can try to do jab2>u-smash for a kill against unsuspecting opponents, keep in mind it can easily be escaped if predicted.

Zard's U-smash also jablocks! The first hit of u-smash jab locks all characters well into 300%. Jab locking with it is tricky tho since for most characters you can only lock them during the missed tech ground bounce animation.:4bowserjr:,:4bowser:,:4dedede:,:4dk:,:4metaknight:, :4rob:, :4pacman: and :4charizard: are the only characters that can be locked while laying flat on the ground. Some characters like :4zss: and :4littlemac: are extremely hard to lock due to their rather short and small groundbounce.

Sadly, Zard lacks a consistent way of jablocking and opponent with u-smash. The best he can do is following an opponent after a nair and u-smashing backwards, if the opponent misses the tech / doesn't jump away they'll get locked and f-amashed to death.

Now on the negatives of u-smash. It's rather unsafe on shield, sometimes the second hit wont connect properly against opponents in the air and the first hit of u-smash doesn't connect into the second one against opponents behind Zard.

So i t's pretty sweet and has tons of uses. I'd say something around A or B.
 
Last edited:

TDK

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
3,717
Location
British Columbia
NNID
GrayCN
Tink's Fsmash isn't D tier. But I digress.

:4link: 's Up Smash is easily A tier. The move is a very good Anti-air, it comes out on frame 10, has multiple hits to catch Air Dodges, kills really early, and can be combo'd out of Bombs or Down Throw at various percents. Bomb -> Read where you're going -> Up Smash works at kill percents. Very nice move, super useful, can make Landing against Link super hard, but good lord does it have some lag on it if you whiff. Like Fsmash but better.

Oh yeah, did I mention it's active for 17 frames?
 
Last edited:

TDK

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
3,717
Location
British Columbia
NNID
GrayCN
Well, the move has hitboxes from 10 to 45, but they're only active for 17 frames total.

Sakurai, I'd love you forever if you actually made the move last 35 frames :3
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
:4bowser:should be a candidate for top tier. Complete invincibility from attacks for 14 frames, not some dinky limb intangibility like Mario's Usmash. It's super armor, but you won't take damage. From a charging state, it's basically a 7 frame move that's invincible from frame 5. This move is an absolute menace against targets forced to land without their double jump. It also true combos from Uthrow and has a built in answer to air dodges with the landing hit. The landing hit can combo into aerials. It also would be safe from counters - if Smash 4 counterattacks weren't almost all designated "unblockable", so that's a weakness he shares with super armor attacks. Greninja and Lucario don't have unblockable counterattacks, but those attacks come out slow enough that Bowser's invincibility has worn off. Unless I'm misremembering, the ONLY counter that doesn't work on Bowser's Usmash is Corrin's. A minute MU detail where neither character gets struck.

Edit: Oh, and it goes without saying that Bowser's is one of the strongest. Possibly the strongest. It's beating other smashes I thought were stronger.

Don't know what I'd rank Shulk's Usmash honestly.
The active hit frames of hit 1 are huge, but there's a connection issue when landing the first hit frame if you're too close for the stronger ground only hitbox. Sheik and some others can escape by shielding the second hit. This happens regardless of their % and any art shulk has equipped. I also believe it may be possible to double jump air dodge when caught by the first hit frame from the air, but it may end up being a frame perfect Bayonetta thing. Never tested it.

Zapp Branniglenn Zapp Branniglenn Doesn't Falcon's up smash have relatively low endlag, though?
Relatively, sure. Only beaten by Ganon, Villager, ZSS, and G&W. But still long enough that you can air dodge through for guaranteed punishes. The two active hit frames total on one side of his body certainly don't help. My argument is that the move has no redeeming qualities to cover it weaknesses, but I will accept that the weaknesses may not be large enough to warrant the bottom tier.
 
Last edited:

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
Ike's Usmash is not F tier. Its the one smash attack of his that still actually has use.

Slowest Usmash? Yep. Stupid sourspot at the end that they didn't fix when they fixed up his Fsmash a tad? Yep.

It still has an absolutely massive range, good killing power outside of the very last hit, and is decent at trapping those trying to land (or those landing on a platform above Ike) just because of the massive range. Its not great, not even good, but its not like Fsmash where its in a tier nearly on its own for crappyness.

Mario, Dr.Mario, Bowser, Little Mac all have S Tier Usmashes.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
:4bowser: and :4tlink: have quite amazing upsmashes. Definitely contenders for top tier.

How do we treat usmashes that are 'only' good because they have confirms? :4fox: and :4lucario: don't have the best usmashes if you look at them in a vaccum but they are feared more than, say, :4sonic: - his usmash probably has all around better data but it's generally not seen as the same level of threat.

:059:
 

mountain_tiger

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Messages
2,444
Location
Dorset, UK
3DS FC
4441-8987-6303
:4peach: While I'm certainly not going to argue this is one of the best USmashes in the game (because that would be a blatant lie), it's actually still pretty solid. It has great kill power with the sweetspot (which can reach through certain platforms!), less powerful but still OK kill power with the sourspot and surprisingly disjointed range. Like I said - not the best, but pretty decent.

:4zss: As discussed a little already, this isn't a great USmash, but it has its uses (just not so much as a kill move). It can be great as a relatively risk-free way of challenging airborne opponents, especially since it has a good chance of beating out air dodges, and is useful for harassing opponents on platform heavy stages. Still one of the less effective USmashes in the game, but still better than bottom tier.

:4zelda: This USmash sucks pretty bad tbh. Its range is awful, trading with an aerial is massively not in Zelda's favour, and there's no real way to set it up as a kill move. Definitely one of the least effective in the game.

:rosalina:Pretty solid even without Luma, and brutal with Rosa and Luma combined. One of the better ones in the game for sure.

:4jigglypuff:As already outlined above, pretty much complete garbage. (Seriously, they should at least give the start-up super armour or something...)

:4wiifit:Not too useful most of the time due to the lack of range, but the sheer power to frame data ratio alone stops it from being completely awful.

:4villager: Amazing anti-air properties and a risk-free follow-up to DSmash if you don't have time for FSmash. Hazardous to the health of anyone who struggles with landing as well.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
:4shulk:'s up smash is a decent move and by far his best smash attack. It unfortunately has connection issues due to the first hit's low knockback and poor angle, but it has noteworthy advantages. Like Masonomace Masonomace mentioned it's incredible at the ledge, being able to cover all ledge options depending on what reaction you read. The hitbox duration is insane as well and the first hit has surprisingly nice range on both sides. It also has the least endlag of all his smashes, which is nice. Up tilt is usually a better and faster option for covering landings, but if you see the clear opportunity to go for usmash, the reward is great.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

arbustopachon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2016
Messages
282
Location
Uruguay
Lucario's U-smash does have a 1 frame charge release going for him if i recall correctly. Also shout outs to Diddy and his frame 5 u-smash.
 
Top Bottom