Racking up damage quickly with Ganon.

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon is the strongest character in the game, but when it comes to landing moves, it gets very difficult. Your attacks become obvious, and easy to pick up on.

Against characters with less punishable moves, and good players, it'll be even harder. Much more when they start camping you more. Ganon mains become very frustrated at this point and, normally, forget that they are suppose to play defensively; fight and create an opening, but they just start 'spamming' any move they can (which makes you even MORE obvious).

Although Ganon might not be a character that can land moves easily, he can still do so, and when he does, he inflicts an horrific amount of damage (which I'll elaborate more on in the next paragraph). He also has his slightly heavy weight (which is even better with proper DI), and very strong kill power (some moves can KO as low as 70% with a good read).

Almost each and every one of Ganon's moves do an significant amount of damage. DAir, as we all know, does a good 23.1%. BAir does around 16-17%. Basically, all his moves, with the exception of Jab, 3 throws & pummel, and dark dive (which you shouldn't really be using on-stage), do a good amount of damage. If Ganon were to land 2-3 moves in a row, he'd do more damage than what other characters do consecutively after numbers of combos. - Now, this is our metagame right here! This is the only way us motivated Ganon players will ever come close to winning a tournament. Along with the incredible patience we have, we need to improve our damage racking skills and knowing when and how to land moves in matches.

Now, us motivated Ganon players shouldn't waste our time talking and complaining (yes, I'm the one to bring this up) about other stuff which we know won't get us anywhere, we should all share our knowledge on racking up damage, since it is in my, and I'm sure now in your opinion the biggest attribute Ganon has in a character. I want all you motivated Ganon players out there to contribute.

A good starter will be, following DAir up after another. Will a small hop DAir follow up with a full hop DAir? On what characters? What stages? What percent? This, and so on.

 

[PK-ow!]

Short hop and Full hop Nair combos both hits on a Snake well past 70%. If you hit him from the front and make sure you are retreating as you are doing it, the Snake can't retaliate until he hits the ground, which - though tight - should be enough time to get out of his sights.


Be mindful of stale move negation on DAir against super heavyweights. They won't leave the ground.


Ray, do you think here would be a good place to discuss "ftilt vs. dtilt: Which move does what, by matchup"? They have the same speed and roughly the same risk, while one or both of them are potent K.O. moves in every matchup. Let's not ignore their ability to disrupt an opponent's flow, too.

Let's also recognize that dtilt has combos against some characters at low percents.


And Ray, you may as well link (don't image-link) the Choke followup chart.

 

[Tacobowl]

I have found that if I can d-tilt my opponent (no matter who) when they are at 0% or close, I can immediately follow up with another d-tilt. Probably not the best method, but it works for me.

 

[@HomE]

YES!! KALM BEING POSITIVE!!!!

I am 100% serious when I say, I'm very proud of you right now Kalm!


@ low %'s SH D-air -> Buffered SH/FH U-air :: i think this is a very reliable combo that i think almost every Ganon does already, but still quite effective

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ray, do you think here would be a good place to discuss "ftilt vs. dtilt: Which move does what, by matchup"? They have the same speed and roughly the same risk, while one or both of them are potent K.O. moves in every matchup. Let's not ignore their ability to disrupt an opponent's flow, too.

As long as it contributes to the point of this thread.

And Ray, you may as well link (don't image-link) the Choke followup chart.

Could do.

Short hop and Full hop Nair combos both hits on a Snake well past 70%. If you hit him from the front and make sure you are retreating as you are doing it, the Snake can't retaliate until he hits the ground, which - though tight - should be enough time to get out of his sights.

The second hit of NAir can be hit on all characters right after the first if you fast fall right on to them (characters that aren't really hit by the second hit and only the first, fall down right below Ganon).

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganondorf is one of the best jugglers in the game honestly.

When your opponent is above you, it's VERY easy for Ganondorf to bait into a free hit. Ganondorf can do another aerial immediately after a fullhop U-air or B-air. This low lag combined with his high fall speed gives him a very powerful chase and followup game, that allows you to easily punish even if they air dodge. Being aggressive works extremely well most of the time when your opponent is above you. Just be careful doing this against Lucario, Toon Link, Link, and G&W who have high priority D-airs that can be hard to work around.

This amazing followup game also is the reason why Ganon's edgeguarding is devastating. Ganon's aerials offstage are spammable, massive, and powerful at gimping. Although it would be better if we could go offstage just a bit farther, some smart play usually makes it very difficult for your opponent to recover completely safely if you know what you're doing. Ganon's ledgejump is a constantly underestimated edgeguard tool. His ledgejump goes very high, and is EXTREMELY useful for punishing high recoveries in general.

 

[PhantomX]

Dair > upair is a favorite and staple of mine. I'm pretty sure if buffered it combos on everyone. Otherwise you can notice what your opponent does after a Dair, most common thing people do is airdodge while falling, which lets you peg with another dair > upair or even a charged samsh.

Something I've done when Dair is stale and doesn't bounce opponents into the air is a quick dair > buffered grab.

 

[Z1GMA]

I like Ganondorf.
I like Combos.
...I like this thread.

This is indeed our Metagame - racking up 70% of damage in about 2,5 secs.

I love Dtilt -> Dtilt Vs light Fast Fallers like Fox.
Sometimes you can even nail 3 of 'em, before following up with a Gerudo/iDA.

Stomp -> Stomp mostly, this only works at like 0% (or if it's staled);
Nevertheless we love it... the art of "Thunder Storming".
It works really well on Heavy and/or Fast Falling characters.
Follow the second Stomp up with an Uair/Bair(ala Kalm~)/Nair; or Mindgame your opponent and nail him/her with a Gerudo upon landing.

I wouldn't recommend 'Stomp -> Stomp' Vs the "Baloon Chars", though, since they'll break it any day of the week.
Instead, Follow up with an Uair/Bair/Nair directly after the Stomp.

Using a Sourspot Bair after a Stomp at like 23%, is a very useful tool when it comes to linking heavier attacks together.
This baby deals 16% of brutal damage, and... it keeps the foe VERY close for you to hit with an additional attack.
(Sourspot Bair is AKA "Chest Plating", since you'll mostly want to perform the Bair Reverse-style.)
Unfortunately, it isn't as affective Vs light characters, as Vs Heavies.
Stomp -> Stomp -> SH/FH Sourspot Bair -> pretty much anything.

Stomp -> Dtilt -> Stomp is a pretty cool way of comboing from like 0%.
Follow up the second Stomp with an Uair/Bair/Nair, or Tech Chase.
It works well vs Snake, Falcon, Bowser and hopefully a couple more.

SH Uair (Not reversed) -> Dtilt -> Gerudo -> anything (starting at like 0%) is awesome Vs tall chars.
You can also skip the Dtilt and aim directly for the Gerudo if needed.

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

We need combos which starts at like 50% !

 

[Superspright]

We hit too hard for anything to be effective at 50%.

What we need to do is realize our gerudo game is amazing and should be used EVERY time. Especially when it comes to prediction. You give your opponent 4 options and thus you can easily cover 2-3 on reaction. Over time they will roll into something stupid, or stand up into an ftilt. Or do a getup attack only to see ganon DJ into fair [that's my favorite, and DLA was doing that to me and I fell in love with it].

Gerudo forces the possibility of MASSIVE damage or kills. The problem is getting the gerudo or any definite setups for it. What we really need to do is all learn how to FoG effectively and perfectly so people can't rely on recovering high *glares at snake* and thus we can punish them.

 

[@HomE]

I like Ganondorf.
I like Combos.
...I like this thread.

This is indeed our Metagame - racking up 70% of damage in about 2,5 secs.

I love Dtilt -> Dtilt Vs light Fast Fallers like Fox.
Sometimes you can even nail 3 of 'em, before following up with a Gerudo/iDA.

Stomp -> Stomp mostly, this only works at like 0% (or if it's staled);
Nevertheless we love it... the art of "Thunder Storming".
It works really well on Heavy and/or Fast Falling characters.
Follow the second Stomp up with an Uair/Bair(ala Kalm~)/Nair; or Mindgame your opponent and nail him/her with a Gerudo upon landing.

I wouldn't recommend 'Stomp -> Stomp' Vs the "Baloon Chars", though, since they'll break it any day of the week.
Instead, Follow up with an Uair/Bair/Nair directly after the Stomp.

Using a Sourspot Bair after a Stomp at like 23%, is a very useful tool when it comes to linking heavier attacks together.
This baby deals 16% of brutal damage, and... it keeps the foe VERY close for you to hit with an additional attack.
(Sourspot Bair is AKA "Chest Plating", since you'll mostly want to perform the Bair Reverse-style.)
Unfortunately, it isn't as affective Vs light characters, as Vs Heavies.
Stomp -> Stomp -> SH/FH Sourspot Bair -> pretty much anything.

Stomp -> Dtilt -> Stomp is a pretty cool way of comboing from like 0%.
Follow up the second Stomp with an Uair/Bair/Nair, or Tech Chase.
It works well vs Snake, Falcon, Bowser and hopefully a couple more.

SH Uair (Not reversed) -> Dtilt -> Gerudo -> anything (starting at like 0%) is awesome Vs tall chars.
You can also skip the Dtilt and aim directly for the Gerudo if needed.

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

We need combos which starts at like 50% !

Why would we need to get people higher then 50% a reverse WP can kill anyone from anywhere at that %...

All you need to do is start throwing out the WP after like 40% and you always win

 

[Z1GMA]

Why would we need to get people higher then 50% a reverse WP can kill anyone from anywhere at that %...

All you need to do is start throwing out the WP after like 40% and you always win

Oh, my bad. I totally forgot that.

¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤

I almost forgot:

Usmash -> Anything at like 0%.
Those sick IASA's on our Usmash are too useful when it comes to comboing.
Usmash -> up angeled Fsmash <3

Actually, "Usmash-Combos" aren't too shabby Vs light characters.

 

[Bahamut777]

I think some testing is needed. I doubt Thunderstorming is guarantee if the opponent reacts with a fast move. I'm frustrating myself getting NAired by Dededes when Thunderstorming. Though I also think that I'm not doing it properly.

I do not think finding new combos or strings is usefull right now, but tempering the ones we already have might be of great help! Like finding new follow-ups to DAir Bounced, Tipman bounce FUs and some other stuff...

 

[A2ZOMG]

You have to wait until a certain percent so the D-air pops him above you. Hitstun sucks in this game, because anything that sends you into tumble can be attacked out of within 25 frames, and air dodged within 13 frames. Wait until he already has 15-20% on him. In this situation, he would be forced to airdodge, but you can call that and punish him by just charging a Smash. Like, get off a Flame Choke -> Jab before D-airing DDD.

N-air is a pretty decent combo starter too. Land the first hit, and it puts them in the position to follow up with U-airs and stuff. SH N-airs can be used as a psuedo spotdodge -> attack strategy furthermore where you dodge grounded moves and punish. Now if only it were safe on block...

 

[PK-ow!]

As long as it contributes to the point of this thread.

Oh, it very much is relevant.

In fact, it has to do with three points I want to make, two of which I'll try my best to make clear in this post, and another which I will save for something pseudo-epic, like my Tauntdorf guide. (It'll be a short read, like, 600 words or something.)


One point, is that, simply put, choosing which move to punish with, if you actually get enough frames to land something, becomes very crucial with Ganon. As Ganon users, we only bring a certain strength when it comes to finishing the job: Low percent kills (and not the gimping kind). If we kill the opponent at 130%+ and he's not named Snake, we suck. We must be striving to land the particular move which will finish off our opponent in the worst way for that character.


The other point is, I am starting to think that patience, in even the form of not using an attack even if it is guaranteed, is crucial to playing Ganondorf at his best. As a result of simulations I've done. Yes, every one of our moves can K.O. But if we just remember, we'll know that just hitting a jab a lot won't cut it. If the game drags on too long, the opponent will beat you. We need to make our K.O.s decisive, and that means trying to land something more than jab. It means landing ftilt, DAir, or Fsmash. Or Tipman. Or F/BAir, depending on matchup.



The first point affects our decision of how to rack damage. Downsmash is our fastest Smash, and Upsmash is about as fast as Fsmash, while an aerial foe tends to be our favoured kind.
ftilt and dtilt have exactly the same speed; ftilt may be a crucial stock-ender in some matchups, while in others, it is a good way to put pressure on for a grueling (damage-racking) edgeguard. Or maybe neither applies, but it is just a good positional manipulator (Ganon doesn't want to be cornered). Dtilt can finish some lightweights, and is the main combo out of Choke on them. It has good range and priority and is something like a poke if you define your opponent's responses. It is, for instance, a move that very well may finish an enemy Fox for you. When you consider that both ftilt and dtilt have the same risk against him, you consider that perhaps ftilt is the better move to use in the damage-racking phase against that one.


For instance, against Snake, who is way too heavy for there to be a loving God in this world, one thing we know is that he is way too good at surviving outright K.O.s, and Ray_Kalm and I observed last month how friggin' ridiculous his vertical survival can be with proper D.I.
What he fails at doing is climbing up from low points on the map. In particular, at low percents. One easy way to get major damage on Snake is to ftilt him off the stage before 40%. Then just wait patiently as he combos himself back up, ready to DAir him (or footstool him) if he makes a mistake, as well as remembering the Wizkick Spike on Cypher finisher.

Alternately, Meta Knight is a character who will always recover if he doesn't outright die, and he is completely invulnerable (at least to us) while doing so. He is also a character we do not want to have falling on us from above, whether there are platforms or not.
He is a character to whom it is completely irrelevant whether he is offstage or not, while we have literally lost our stock and the game has just failed to inform us so, if we end up on the ledge against one.
Meta Knight is a character that must be dealt a K.O. move when it will K.O., and not before. Meta Knight must be finished off the side or off the ceiling - by Fsmash or DAir or ftilt - at the lowest percent possible, and so these moves must be treated carefully. Thankfully, we do get grab release to Fsmash, allowing us to keep MK from face-rushing us when the game is up.


The second point is associated with the first - and in turn, hints at my third point - but it is distinct. Suppose Meta Knight dodges behind Ganondorf with a back roll (a laggy roll). He is in range of a *his* Dsmash, but you could walk out of range in the time you have. Alternately, you could turn around and jab before he could do anything (let's say you're working with the reaction time of a predicted action)..

I say, it is not trivial that you should jab him. I claim that professional Ganon use means looking one more move ahead, to see if you can catch the Meta Knight for an even worse punishment. You can use the 7 frames (jab=7f) you have now to set up for that Yomi however you want. Although we are Ganon, and we have a crappy dash, spot dodge, jump, walk, and even true pivot, the potential pay off is large.

I think this point goes to the heart of Ray_Kalm's proposal. Landing damaging strings means looking for those damaging strings. A Melee video I watched recently has as its thesis (and title), it takes balls to be the best. It means knowing you will hit the opponent how you want, and making it so. Fighting in a way so desperate that you hit whenever you can is not enough.1 That says "I will not be cut," where you should be thinking "I will cut my opponent."2


Playing Ganon does one thing for the player, I think, and that is it impresses upon the user the importance of not wasting frames. If you unwittingly shield when something unexpected happens, you'll lose your stock. If you don't think about your recovery, you'll lose your stock. If you whiff - oh, Ganon help you if you whiff - a smash, you lose about 80%, then probably your stock.
But this has a corollary, and it is just that, it shows us what you can do with frames. If you have gained the slightest advantage against the opponent, that means you can be thinking that many milliseconds ahead of the opponent. Do not just take the first move that fits within those frames. Trap him with something deadlier. More befitting the terror aura you should possess if you are a pro. Plus you main Ganon, so pro Ganons should basically be able to make people **** their pants.

I say "just" because, let's not be fools, it still may be correct to take that move, even a jab. Certainly, for instance, if your opponent is being tricky and goes for random smash. A jab that interrupts a Smash - and gets the counter-hit multiplier!3 - is like, the most embarrassing and amazing thing ever.


Well, I haven't made a complete exposition as I planned, but I think I can make an essay out of this, and use it to just say "hey, guys, consider this."


Murder




1. I first learned this while trying to figure out what was wrong with my Marth, actually. >_>

2. From BLEACH, at least the anime

3. I hope you all know that there's a counter-hit multiplier in Smash. It only applies to smash attacks, (and it applies to all of them except for Ness' yo-yos), and it deals a multiplier of knockback to anyone struck while charging or performing a smash.


*~*~*~

Don't forget the 72% COMBO! on Wolf from 0%:

DAir -> Tipman bounce hit -> DAir on forced getup -> Usmash

If you're near a ledge though, I think it's better to link to a guaranteed Choke -> Jab, for edgeguarding lulz.

 

[noradseven]

Press any button

/close thread.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Press any button

/close thread.

Please do not post in this thread if you have nothing appropriate to say.

One point, is that, simply put, choosing which move to punish with, if you actually get enough frames to land something, becomes very crucial with Ganon. As Ganon users, we only bring a certain strength when it comes to finishing the job: Low percent kills (and not the gimping kind). If we kill the opponent at 130%+ and he's not named Snake, we suck. We must be striving to land the particular move which will finish off our opponent in the worst way for that character.

The first point affects our decision of how to rack damage. Downsmash is our fastest Smash, and Upsmash is about as fast as Fsmash, while an aerial foe tends to be our favoured kind.
ftilt and dtilt have exactly the same speed; ftilt may be a crucial stock-ender in some matchups, while in others, it is a good way to put pressure on for a grueling (damage-racking) edgeguard. Or maybe neither applies, but it is just a good positional manipulator (Ganon doesn't want to be cornered). Dtilt can finish some lightweights, and is the main combo out of Choke on them. It has good range and priority and is something like a poke if you define your opponent's responses. It is, for instance, a move that very well may finish an enemy Fox for you. When you consider that both ftilt and dtilt have the same risk against him, you consider that perhaps ftilt is the better move to use in the damage-racking phase against that one.

For instance, against Snake, who is way too heavy for there to be a loving God in this world, one thing we know is that he is way too good at surviving outright K.O.s, and Ray_Kalm and I observed last month how friggin' ridiculous his vertical survival can be with proper D.I.
What he fails at doing is climbing up from low points on the map. In particular, at low percents. One easy way to get major damage on Snake is to ftilt him off the stage before 40%. Then just wait patiently as he combos himself back up, ready to DAir him (or footstool him) if he makes a mistake, as well as remembering the Wizkick Spike on Cypher finisher.


Alternately, Meta Knight is a character who will always recover if he doesn't outright die, and he is completely invulnerable (at least to us) while doing so. He is also a character we do not want to have falling on us from above, whether there are platforms or not.
He is a character to whom it is completely irrelevant whether he is offstage or not, while we have literally lost our stock and the game has just failed to inform us so, if we end up on the ledge against one.
Meta Knight is a character that must be dealt a K.O. move when it will K.O., and not before. Meta Knight must be finished off the side or off the ceiling - by Fsmash or DAir or ftilt - at the lowest percent possible, and so these moves must be treated carefully. Thankfully, we do get grab release to Fsmash, allowing us to keep MK from face-rushing us when the game is up.

Exactly. We should find ways to limit our opponents in a way that we know 1 or more of our attacks will be guaranteed. For example, let's say our opponent is a Ike. Ike is by far the easiest character juggle AFTER he has airdodged. D-throw helps us out alot here. Ike only has three options out of DThrow; attack, jump or airdodge. Attack, as we all know, limits everyone, but in this example, Ike will never consider attacking as an option, mainly because of their long duration. Jumping is better suited for those with higher jumps, but those who have short jumps don't really depend on them, but if they happen to, that can be easily punished. So, all Ike's really limited to know is a jump and airdodge. Both of which can be punished on reaction, even by a (stuttered) FSmash.

It is not commonly known that Ganon has some moves which can limit characters by alot, and it works on the majority of the cast, and these moves could also lead to KOs.

The other point is, I am starting to think that patience, in even the form of not using an attack even if it is guaranteed, is crucial to playing Ganondorf at his best. As a result of simulations I've done. Yes, every one of our moves can K.O. But if we just remember, we'll know that just hitting a jab a lot won't cut it. If the game drags on too long, the opponent will beat you. We need to make our K.O.s decisive, and that means trying to land something more than jab. It means landing ftilt, DAir, or Fsmash. Or Tipman. Or F/BAir, depending on matchup.

The second point is associated with the first - and in turn, hints at my third point - but it is distinct. Suppose Meta Knight dodges behind Ganondorf with a back roll (a laggy roll). He is in range of a *his* Dsmash, but you could walk out of range in the time you have. Alternately, you could turn around and jab before he could do anything (let's say you're working with the reaction time of a predicted action)..

I say, it is not trivial that you should jab him. I claim that professional Ganon use means looking one more move ahead, to see if you can catch the Meta Knight for an even worse punishment. You can use the 7 frames (jab=7f) you have now to set up for that Yomi however you want. Although we are Ganon, and we have a crappy dash, spot dodge, jump, walk, and even true pivot, the potential pay off is large.

I think this point goes to the heart of Ray_Kalm's proposal. Landing damaging strings means looking for those damaging strings. A Melee video I watched recently has as its thesis (and title), it takes balls to be the best. It means knowing you will hit the opponent how you want, and making it so. Fighting in a way so desperate that you hit whenever you can is not enough.1 That says "I will not be cut," where you should be thinking "I will cut my opponent."

Unless the guaranteed moves are something massive like DTilt after Gerudo, then yes, patience is very much crucial to playing Ganondorf. Many good Ganons already have this trait though, Ijosh and Zhouten for a example, their patience is what makes them so good.

 

[Kitamerby]

Is this the place to mention how amazing Dthrow is and why it's better than Fthrow because you can potentially get more damage with a followup? <<

 

[A2ZOMG]

D-throw suuuuucks.

If your opponent isn't stupid and just DIs away, it's useless.

Up-throw is better. But F-throw in general is the real deal, since you can get people offstage with it.

Actually, there is a use for D-throw. If you know your opponent will DI towards you in anticipation of F-throw, then they're in a pretty tough position. Although you will have to call out a potential airdodge at a low height, which is very difficult for anyone to react to.

 

[noradseven]

I was being seriously lol... but the best way to effectivly do quick damage with ganon outside of that d-air,JC stuff which shouldn't hit except on pressure, is to get a j.side B or side B and get lucky on your oki pressure.

 

[PK-ow!]

I was being seriously lol... but the best way to effectivly do quick damage with ganon outside of that d-air,JC stuff which shouldn't hit except on pressure, is to get a j.side B or side B and get lucky on your oki pressure.

Aerial Choke doesn't lead to much because everyone, who's in the know or not, is going to just try their wake-up attack, because the best thing you can do out of that is Power shield -> grab.


By the way, learn to power shield every character's wake-up attack, people. I learned how to do it, so you can too.

I'm thinking of putting up a chart of how the characters' wake-up attacks go. For example, did you know that Toon Link and Dedede attack in front first, then behind, whereas most characters who don't attack on both sides at the same time do it in the other order?

D3 and TL are slow enough with this that simply shielding the wake-up gives you still enough time to grab, and even jab Toon Link.



I am also thinking that we should try and be more edgy with stealing grab pummels. Someone plotted the data for grab escapes - these numbers *MUST* be memorized in the case of an IC matchup. Some people get out of those grabs, you know.

If players will just always DI the dthrow, then either they are appropriately trying to reduce their grab time (tapping away), or they aren't. If they aren't, get extra damage in. Ganon's pummel is not that slow if you have the right timing. If they are, you have to try harder to punish them there.
Indeed, I bet lots of people are guilty of not exploiting the grab mechanic ... at all. To attempt to escape means to risk inputting a bad attack when you actually do escape. To not attempt to escape means that the opponent has sometimes twice as many pummels as the "divide by 50% and round off" calculation. That's significant damage.

Also Uthrow is nice if they DI away and is fast so it might surprise them.


This talk of the DI on Dthrow is so close to my third point that I think I should talk about it now. But it's late so I can't think completely well.

 

[Noobicidal]

Is this the place to mention how amazing Dthrow is and why it's better than Fthrow because you can potentially get more damage with a followup? <<

D-throw can be useful at low percents; if they don't DI, you get a U-air follow up, and if they DI away, you can bait a JCDUS (Jump Canceled Dash Up Smash; unrelated to Kalm's recent work). If they airdodge the U-smash, you can either jab, F-tilt, or shield from its IASA frames.

Otherwise, I'd just grab, pummel and F-throw for a good 15%.

 

[noradseven]

Aerial Choke doesn't lead to much because everyone, who's in the know or not, is going to just try their wake-up attack, because the best thing you can do out of that is Power shield -> grab.

f-smash/stutter step f-smash(char dependent), works far better than it should, and it puts fear into them heh.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

f-smash/stutter step f-smash(char dependent), works far better than it should, and it puts fear into them heh.

Most get-up attacks break anything aerial choke has to offer.

 

[noradseven]

Most get-up attacks break anything aerial choke has to offer.

Then what if you block I know its random guessing but I personally find aireal chokes far more landable then most of ganon's arsenal outside of u-air of course.

Char dependent you can also air chock, j. d-air immediatly if you know they are going to just get-up attack.

 

[thexsunrosered]

I <3 this thread.
If you don't intend to kill with DA (iDA on MK after Gerudo will most likely kill after 80, or less with bad DI), use it to rack damage. It's a truck of a move and will out prioritize most moves. After it's staled it has minimal knockback making it easier to followup/mindgame, so if you don't plan on killing, use this, ESPECIALLY OoS. It comes out blazing with a ****load of range making you more of a beast than before.

 

[mofo_]

bounce>dair>chestplate>air gerudo
works only some heavy guyz 78% damage

im sure they can DI or dodge the gerudo but they usually dont expect it the first time
oh and they may dodge out of the hitstun of the first dair...so maybe bounce wont be guaranteed

 

[PK-ow!]

Oh, a while ago I thought of combining the bouncing combo on Snake with the chestplate combo.


That would be DAir -> Tipman -> DAir FF -> Chestplate FF -> any aerial.

At the edge, it could be a DAir for stock. (!!!)


And yes, for the love of Ganon, know what Dash Attack is going to do for you in your matchup. If it can kill, try not to use it. If it can't won't, abuse the **** out of it. Range is so effing good, and it will clash with like everything other than jabs. It clashes with Aura Spheres, you know.


I do feel we're losing our focus though. What we need are ways to set up strings, even if they aren't guaranteed. Things that will make the opponent sweat, and force them into picking the right move - force them to know our matchup - or die.
Doing enough of those, and properly mixing up, while staying strong and flawless yourself, are how you break enemy minds.

 

[Breezy]

From 0%:
Dair -> Grab -> Pummel (to force ground release) -> Gerudo -> Follow-Up with *MU dependant*
Most people will spotdodge or just hold their shield up after a grabrelease. Gerudo punishes both.

 

[NatP]

Well, one little combo I like to do sometimes is Gerudo>dtilt>fsmash on fatties at low %. It won't get them all the time, and you should only use it once per match just to catch the off guard. But when it does connect, it does ALOT of damage.

 

[PK-ow!]

From a post in the Falcon boards:

More generally, manipulating Falcon's hurtbox seems to be pivotal to reaching the height of his game.

I have also seen this in some other characters.


It is a matter of character-character advantage that some character's can manipulate their bodies and some can't. Look at Snake's jumps. But look at his crouch.


Falcon's Raptor Boost, and also his Fsmash, move his body back, just far enough that you can actually dodge moves with it.
This gives you a powerful tool in the spacing war, I cannot underscore that hard enough.


In fact, my finding is that all (and only) the Fsmashes that move the hurtbox, are the ones with the stutter step property. I believe this may have been put in to increase the difficulty in abusing the hurtbox movement property... because, what you really want to do with the move.... is not take a step forwards, but take a step back.


I had not believed the backflip could be practically used, but now I'll try harder.

Replace 'Falcon' with Ganon... except our Side-B doesn't help us dodge anything.

EDIT: And in case I wasn't clear enough: My idea is that you should all start backdashing -> Fsmash. You have to specifically delay the Fsmash input to avoid getting the reverse Fsmash step. I haven't been able to do with with the C-stick, either.
Ganon ends up running back, and taking a further step back, before returning the Fsmash. And if you charge, you stay back.



This doesn't exactly help rack damage... but I consider this thread our new 'Ganon's meta discussion'... and I hope this post will get me to bring together the last thing I wanted to say from before.

It's about... mistakes.
Players make them.
If you try not to make them, you'll go far.


...
But if you assume your opponent will make at least one...

Your conclusion is a given: Be there to make it costly.

As Ganon, punishing mistakes can be extremely rewarding. I have begun modifying my instincts to accord with the following principle: If an assumption that my opponent will screw a particular move up will get me a profound reward when combined with the bonus in reaction time... I will consider assuming that my opponent will make a mistake.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

i think u guys should really have a seperate thread for ganon's metagame.. ganon really needs it..

 

[Memun]

i usually do dtilt-dtilt-wiz' kick on 0%

 

[Noobicidal]

i usually do dtilt-dtilt-wiz' kick on 0%

I usually get power shielded, shield-grabbed, or punished horribly when I attempt that.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Dair > Fullhop Nair > Double jump Dair is a great way to kill people early from 0% near the edge. I've nailed this combo a couple of times.

 

[PK-ow!]

Dair > Fullhop Nair > Double jump Dair is a great way to kill people early from 0% near the edge. I've nailed this combo a couple of times.

How could that possibly work?

Assuming you actually land the NAir, which isn't guaranteed, the opponent should just Drift back over top of you, because you can't defend yourself up top in anything less than a billion frames.




Bthrow -> read recovery -> DAir. That's how you do it.

Force an approach to the edge with dtaunt, of course.

 

[Maaaaaaaaaan]

I <3 this thread.
If you don't intend to kill with DA (iDA on MK after Gerudo will most likely kill after 80, or less with bad DI), use it to rack damage. It's a truck of a move and will out prioritize most moves. After it's staled it has minimal knockback making it easier to followup/mindgame, so if you don't plan on killing, use this, ESPECIALLY OoS. It comes out blazing with a ****load of range making you more of a beast than before.

Ditto on the <3

Also though, since I'm new to playing Brawl seriously, and Ganon's manliness makes him much more viable for me than "top tier" characters... I figured I'd try and learn some things.

Now, I understand that we've got nothing that resembles an approach, but on the topic of racking up damage quickly, I was wondering what everyone thinks is their personal best way of doing so from 0%. Also, what are some ways that you use to set it up? My biggest thing to work on right now is getting started. Once they've got some damage, I get into a rhythm since it's easier to manipulate their position, but how do you get to them when they're fresh?

Oh, and since I didn't know where this question belonged, the quote's related. I tend to use DA as a damage move instead of a kill shot too, but I also tend to lean on the F-tilt out of it in case two attacks collide. Normally in the time it takes them to realize both attacks canceled out, I've already given them a swift boot to the head. This a good idea? My mind is yours to mold.

(I'm also aware of how **** easy it is to be grabbed out of a DA if they shield, which brings me back to my point: How do you guys use causing damage as an approach?)

 

[Superspright]

when they're fresh? Hmmm. Mindgames. That's all you can do. Ganon = Mindgames. Just keep baiting them until they use something punishable, then go on a stomp storm.

 

[Magus-Cie]

(I'm also aware of how **** easy it is to be grabbed out of a DA if they shield, which brings me back to my point: How do you guys use causing damage as an approach?)

Mindgames. That's all you can do. Ganon = Mindgames. Just keep baiting them until they use something punishable, then go on a stomp storm.

10GannonMindgames

 

[Superspright]

Well, it's not like Ganon can do much in terms of tricking his opponent anyway. Even the best players will eventually get overwhelmed simply because of the character's limitations.

It's like whenever I play axis and allies--I usually pick the axis, because I am supposed to lose. I think it's 60-40 allies versus axis. So, I naturally pick the one that is disadvantaged. Same with Ganon. If you pick Ganon you have to be aware he does in fact suck, and should be annihilated--but when you win with him it is extremely rewarding.

 

[Hobs]

Well, it's not like Ganon can do much in terms of tricking his opponent anyway. Even the best players will eventually get overwhelmed simply because of the character's limitations.

It's like whenever I play axis and allies--I usually pick the axis, because I am supposed to lose. I think it's 60-40 allies versus axis. So, I naturally pick the one that is disadvantaged. Same with Ganon. If you pick Ganon you have to be aware he does in fact suck, and should be annihilated--but when you win with him it is BADAZZ.

Fix'd .