Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread

[T-block]

No, your wording is terrible lol - have you ever taken coordinate geometry? The z-axis doesn't refer to all points not in the standard plane. Points with a non-zero z coordinate will lie off the standard plane, but you can't really be "in" the z-axis X_x

Do characters move in the z direction when they air dodge?

 

[Toomai]

Do characters move in the z direction when they air dodge?

Not sure if everyone does but quite a few do.

Also I'd like to take this opportunity to point out somewhat of a confusing part of the Brawl engine. When talking about stages, X is horizontal, Y is vertical, and Z is the third/in-and-out/minor axis. With respect to characters, Y is still vertical, but X is sideways and Z is forwards/backwards. As a result, when a character walks forwards, they're moving along their Z axis, but they're moving along the stage's X axis.

The matter isn't helped by programs like PSA and OpenSA not realizing this distiction and therefore swapping the labels of X position and Z position (things are always in XYZ order, never ZYX order). BrawlBox on the other hand gets it right.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Perhaps we should make a public release thread correctifying this to the public.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

No, your wording is terrible lol - have you ever taken coordinate geometry? The z-axis doesn't refer to all points not in the standard plane. Points with a non-zero z coordinate will lie off the standard plane, but you can't really be "in" the z-axis X_x

No, I've never taken coordinate geometry Not yet anyways. I think the math classes I'm taking this upcoming school year will include it though.

I wasn't aware of the whole Z/X mix-up :O Interesting bit of info Toomai.

And thanks for clearing that up Reflex

 

[Exdeath]

GaW's FSmash is extended. :S Like, reaaaaally extended.

What does that mean in relation to what I was saying? I used it as an example because I am under the impression that it is a long-lasting hit box that should eat AD landings, yet ~1/3 of the times someone will power shield the weak hit box.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

That was in response to my third option.

 

[Exdeath]

That was in response to my third option.

Then why does it happen? It can happen pretty much anywhere on G&W's Fsmash/Usmash.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

A) They landed just outside of range but their shield is still in range so that they can power sheild
B) They contort when they land (in the animation) so the hitbox does not touch them until their buffered shield comes up
C) It's not an extended hitbox so it doesn't break through their vulnerability while landing

Well here's what I said.

 

[phi1ny3]

I want to know the mechanics of Brinstar's "bubble blocks", would there be information found in Brawlbox at all?

Or better yet, could someone tell my why at certain positions, a hitbox that breaks the blocks will sometimes hit all of them (ex. Pikachu's thunder) but at other times, only hit a couple as usual? My guess is that as long as that hitbox stays, it will travel down and hit the others, but I'm wondering why it's sometimes rather specific where you need to be to get all of them.

 

[MonkUnit]

Brinstar is rather glitchy.

I'll take a look at the bubbles when I get time.

 

[Toomai]

I'm guessing that if Thunder's hitbox strikes the cell's hurtbox before Thunder's floor detector (whatever it is) strikes the cell's floor, the cell dies before the Thunder can hit it so it can continue on. Whereas if it hits the floor and the hurtbox on the same frame, it dies.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

it could also be related to thunders mysterious multi hit behavior, of which none of us yet knows why it does it LOL

 

[MonkUnit]

IIRC Thunder has 3 different parts to it. 3 hitboxes that come down.

Hitbox 1

Hitbox 2

Hitbox 3

That may be why it sometimes multihits.

 

[KayLo!]

It's four hitbubbles, actually. I made two videos showing what it looks like a while ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX2eeVeclB4&t=2m12s (from the general hitbubble video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__AnAdTwzys (a video I made for Stealth when the Pikas were trying to figure out the multihit thing)

Sometimes thunder multihits; in other cases, with the same positioning/damage/staleness/everything, it only hits once. Even when it consistently hits more than once, it varies in how many times it hits. Either the positioning is so tight that it's impossible to recreate it on sight or it's random or it's something we're missing.

EDIT: Btw, for the last two instances where ZSS got hit multiple times (on BF), there were many trials where I did the exact same thing -- as far as I could tell anyways -- and she only got hit once. But the request at the time was for a video of multihits, so I didn't include the single hit ones in the video.

It's possible to get it to semi-consistently hit more than once, though, which makes it seem like it's not random and just really, really specific. I dunno.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i have done so much research into this topic since back when i first did thunair. i could find circumstances and situations in which i had a higher chance to multi hit with it but it never seemed guaranteed. i abused it when i could but it isnt consistent enough for competitive use. i once though DI was a factor but ive come to think it doesnt XD

for those who dont know what thunair is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wtrdY5-jOw

this was one of the ways i applied multi hit thunder back in the day when i was first looking into it

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Thunair looks like it was the TL DIing up during the first hit of thunder, which led into your nair. After that the nair put him into hitstun long enough for thunder's other three hitboxes to connect. Then nair hit (again), and knockback was finally allowed. Or it could be that Thunder connected late enough so that by the time knockback was applied the next hitbox was close enough to connect?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

for the setups into thunair i use, the most common is dropping a thunder onto someone who is on the ledge. they IF through the explosion of T2, but they come out right afterwards, get sucked up into me and i nair. here is the original thunair -i had done it previous but this was the first time it not only killed but got recorded- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cY3TzCgRmY&feature=channel_video_title its the last kill. the other way i know of triggering involved thunder hitting the ground without pikachu absorbing it and it hitting the enemy. a frequent way i get multi hit thunder is using thunder right when im about to get grabbed, and when it lands it hits the person multiple times. the only conclusion i got from my studies is that this happens at the bottom part of thunder only, whether it be pikachu being hit or where it hits the ground. for some reason the hitbox refreshes itself and it hits multiple times. its the only conclusion i have come up with, as kaylo has said it sometimes multi hits and sometimes doesnt even in the same circumstance. even the number of times it hits varies for no apparent reason.

i feel like i have honestly exhausted every avenue on this subject :/ i have no clue how to research the why of multi hit thunder anymore then i already have. if anyone wants to take a look into it go ahead

last vid i have with a thunair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uflKwCQWJqA start watching at 3:45. it is hard to tell that it happens, but if you watch the percent it happens. actually it didnt multi hit in this case but it most likely would have considering it was the same type of setup

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I have a quick question--

Fastfalling during an aerial. Can you do it at any point in the animation (outside of when you're moving upward from a jump)?

 

[standardtoaster]

You can only fastfall when you are moving down.

 

[T-block]

That can't be right... he means the fast fall used to cancel vertical momentum.

Yeah, the fast fall can be done starting frame 1 of most aerials.

Unless I'm missing something...

 

[standardtoaster]

Oh. I'm pretty sure you can't fastfall to cancel vertical momentum. O.o

 

[rPSIvysaur]

lol wat? You can definitely FF to vertical momentum cancel after being hit by an attack. It's why Link's vertical momentum cancel is amazing.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, if you're moving downward during the animation of an aerial, can you start a fastfall at any point during the animation?

 

[MonkUnit]

If you aren't FFing already, I would assume you could.

 

[phi1ny3]

lol wat? You can definitely FF to vertical momentum cancel after being hit by an attack. It's why Link's vertical momentum cancel is amazing.

^This is correct, in fact certain moves with stalling modifiers will sometimes change only while in hitstun.

 

[standardtoaster]

You mean like toon link's dair? Yeah, they were stupid and didn't set the bit that allowed momentum commands to work properly after hitstun. lol

 

[DeLux]

I actually have documentation of aerial > FF > momentum changing Dair gives superior momentum cancelling.

For example, with ICs, you survive longer if you Uair > Fast Fall > Dair than repeated Uair > FF inputs

 

[phi1ny3]

You mean like toon link's dair? Yeah, they were stupid and didn't set the bit that allowed momentum commands to work properly after hitstun. lol

Also works with Lucario's dair iirc as well, and his modifier is almost the complete opposite (and thus it works like a normal FF dair in hitstun).

 

[Exdeath]

Irrelevant to survival, is it faster to return to the ground if you aerial, wait for the upward momentum to end>FF than to immediately aerial>FF?

 

[T-block]

I actually have documentation of aerial > FF > momentum changing Dair gives superior momentum cancelling.

For example, with ICs, you survive longer if you Uair > Fast Fall > Dair than repeated Uair > FF inputs

From my understanding, repeated aerial > FF inputs don't actually do anything. One u-air fast fall will be just as good for survival as repeated u-air fast falls.

Irrelevant to survival, is it faster to return to the ground if you aerial, wait for the upward momentum to end>FF than to immediately aerial>FF?

It's faster to fast fall as soon as possible.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If a character is hit by Zelda's B-Air or F-Air, or Falcon's F-Air, while they're touching a wall, there appears to be zero hitlag on that character. They just instantly fly in the direction that the move would send them.

Can someone explain why that is? Is it some weird quirk of the "electricity" effect?

 

[KayLo!]

If a character is hit by Zelda's B-Air or F-Air, or Falcon's F-Air, while they're touching a wall, there appears to be zero hitlag on that character. They just instantly fly in the direction that the move would send them.

Can someone explain why that is? Is it some weird quirk of the "electricity" effect?

No idea off the top of my head but..... semi-related, for Zelda, sometimes she gets zero hitlag from her Kicks at random (the opponent will still do the freeze thing, but she goes straight into cooldown). There's no rhyme or reason for it as far as me & the Zeldas have been able to tell, so the wall thing might be a similar phenomenon.

Freakin electric moves.

 

[MonkUnit]

Any vids of these oddities?

 

[KayLo!]

Pretty sure I can find a vid of the Kick thing. Just gotta go dig. x.x

 

[KayLo!]

Zelda when she kicks Oli:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EQEFcgA0RY&t=2m38s

At first I thought it might have to do with Pikmin interference or something.... but Zeldas've reported it happening vs. a bunch of characters. On diff stages at diff percentages.

I think one guy said he got it to work semi-consistently, but I stopped researching around when he started looking into it. =X

 

[Toomai]

I would seriously doubt it's exclusive to high-freeze-frame electric hitboxes; it's just that those are the only cases you can notice it happening. May also have something to do with said hitboxes of the Lightning Kick and the Knee Smash only lasting for one frame before being supplanted by the late hit.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

really? i have noticed this for agesssss. pikachus fsmash and thunder do it as well as well as a couple times i have seen tshock do it, and this almost happens when they are near a wall. lemme go dig up a vid i have vs anther where i know it happened. im very certain it is related to how you can hit an attack as you are hit with an electric attack and you do it the first frame of the hit. i have also seen multiple instances, and done it myself where a pikachu has hit mk with thunder two and he up b's at the same time and he dies off of the top right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbTj-J4f57o&feature=channel_video_title&t=4m14s first fsmash that happens. this was the first time i ever saw this phenomena iirc, way back in two thousand and eight. when i heard how you can hit a and hit ganon immediately out of his up b i thought they were related. i have seen almost every electric hitbox at some point in time do what is shown in the vid

 

[MonkUnit]

i thought the upB hit thing was due to doing an attack out of hitstun

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i thought the upB hit thing was due to doing an attack out of hitstun

i thought it was related to the fact that it was an electric hitbox, which causes similar effects to what i said in my last post. for the whole metaknight part i talked about, i know exactly what happens the entire way, but it requires the fact that something allows a character to use an attack frame one after an elextric hitbox connects, supposedly because you put the action in the frame you get hit by it

 

[Lord Chair]

Say, how does GaW get his upB back at 1:50 here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHGxBYwH4XE